Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: add4 on August 15, 2012, 06:51:09 PM
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Hello all,
Last year i asked advices about a pickup change for modern jazz, and i finally decided to go for the manhattan (topic here https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=23455.0)
I was not truly happy with the manhattan in the Ibanez, but i am fairly certain it's because they're so transparent that i could hear that the ibanez was a cheap guitar (i think i could actually hear low quality wood, with a plastic quality in the sound)
Since then, i upgraded the ibanez by a real ES335 fat neck, which i love, but i decided to try the manhattan just have an idea of the sound it would give, and i have mixed feelings about it:
i would like to have your advices and ideas on what i could get to upgrade the stock classic 57, but avoid the things i don't like in the manhattan
Classic 57:
pros:
- Great medium/highs.
- it cuts through the mix really well (because of these medium/highs)
cons :
- very 'closed' sound
- not bright enough on some settings
- not super precise
Manhattans:
Pros:
- VERY open sound (sounds like an archtop ... which i love)
- nice highs
- not too boomy in the bass
- really articulate and sensitive to dynamics
- i can get that piano like sound that really sounds cool
- precision
cons :
- doesn't cut through the mix (not enough medium highs) in a band setting
- not enough output
- too 'nice' for me .. i'd prefer a little more 'badboy' sound
I'm thinking of swapping the manhattan for an unpotted mule (i don't use high gain distortion), or stormy monday.
I have one friend who has great results with the emerald in his solid body.
i would like to keep the dynamics, and open sound of the manhattan if possible.
I would like a strong emphasis in medium highs, almost nasal.
Don't get me wrong, the manhattan is a GREAT pickup, it has a lot of very nice charachteristics, and would be ideal in an arch top, used for traditional jazz, but i also want a more modern sound and something that cuts more in a band setting.
In fact, i think i'm looking for a classic 57 with more dynamics and 'openness', less boomy in the bass, a little more bright, more precision, and a little more output. Do you think i can find that ?
Thanks in advance
Arnaud
P.s. if you happen to have the model that would do it, and want to try the manhattan, trading is a possibility
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The Mississippi Queen is a great open sounding P90. It has more high mids than the Manhattan. The Mules would be an excellent choice. I haven't used the Mules much, but what I have gotten to use them was wonderful. Very open and clear with a lot going on in the mids and upper mids. Fast bass response but not compressed or overpowering.
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Ok, i've been playing with my para EQ and i now know that the frequencies that i want are not medium/highs, but medium/lows, in fact, i like a strong emphasis around 500Hz.
Maybe that can help you giving ideas.. :)
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The paraEQ, that is an awesome pedal, as you probably already know :)
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I think unpotted Mules are a good idea. Even the potted ones (I have a set in a Saint Blues) have plenty of mojo: full, rich, complex and deep tones, yet crispy and tight enough for all kinds of rock (even when Nolly recorded some metalclips with Mules in a Blackmachine). Unpotted you are able to extract the last bit of juice from the Mules.
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you're not gonna go too far wrong with a set of mules or stormy mondays. i've got a mule in the bridge and a stormy in the neck of my 335 and i love it. the middle position has almost got a gretsch like quality going on!
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i think the right amount of output for me is given by the les paul pickups (490R/498T) do you think its would mean that the mules are not hot enough and i should go for something a bit hotter, in the morder output family maybe?
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i think the right amount of output for me is given by the les paul pickups (490R/498T) do you think its would mean that the mules are not hot enough and i should go for something a bit hotter, in the morder output family maybe?
Yes, I was thinking that it would be best to take not one, but two or three steps up the pickup range. Not only to 'drive through' the heavier laminated ( i.e cheaper ) guitars, but to ensure that you have a totally contrasting pickup - from the Manhattan, and the other somewhat subtle end of the B.K.P. pickup range. I replaced my 490/498s with Mules and am very happy, but I would want a classic 'open' P.A.F sound anyway. As B.K.P. have all given me varying degrees of detail and power, I would indeed say think of Emeralds, Abraxas, Riff Raffs e.t.c - depending on the basic tonal character you want to 'launch' from. Unfortunately, I cannot give any insight to the pickups I have just mentioned, as I have never owned them ( If only I could ! :o ).
Dont worry about losing articulation with the higher output B.K.P. - as even my Warpigs give me a ( relatively ) clear and responsive sound.
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Stormy Monday neck definitely.
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The Mississippi Queen is a great open sounding P90. It has more high mids than the Manhattan. The Mules would be an excellent choice. I haven't used the Mules much, but what I have gotten to use them was wonderful. Very open and clear with a lot going on in the mids and upper mids. Fast bass response but not compressed or overpowering.
Nudged by this thread to do some revision, I re-installed my M.Qs into my (Tanglewood) 335 copy today - and fitted some nice clear GeorgeL's strings. I had forgotten just how lovely the M.Qs sound in that guitar, better than in any other in fact. The guitar also helping to remind me what lovely pickups the Mississipi Queens are. :)
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Fourth Feline, I agree! I have a MQ neck and Abraxas bridge in my SG Standard. The MQ is outstanding. I am partial to A4 pickups, but there is undeniable magic in the MQ set.
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Thanks for your advices,
I'm not really into the MQ, because i'd like the 'weight' and thickness of a humbucker.
I'm thinking about mules or something a bit hotter like a VHII, abraxas or black dog.
I imagine the VHII are like hotter mules, balanced and 'classical' sounding. which would be the safest choice
i like the idea of the boosted mids of the black dog, but i'm not sure it's the mids i want, the clips make it sound like the enhanced mids are higher than the mids i am looking for.
I'm curious about the abraxas. the words 'vocal tone' really attracts me.
the emerald description make it sound too bright for my taste..
it's really hard to decide without trying ... :)
I'd love to see a complete analysis of the frequency response of each pickup...
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The vocal tone you want = Mules. The Abraxas would already on the hot side for what you're looking for, however it cleans up and splits nice. The Abraxas is a hotter version of the Mule (bot AIV-magnets).
I don't think you want VHII's, they quite rocky and punchy and although they cleanup great. To me Mules sound more open, fat, full and deep and crispy at the same time. From pristine cleans, you can go from jazz, blues, bluesrock, classic rock, hardrock and, with the right amp, even metal. Based on your first description I would go for these versatile pickups, unless you're looking for more midgrowl like the middy-middy Black Dog provides.
My 2 cents
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Telerocker is absolutely correct about the Abraxas being a hotter Mule. They have a really even response across the mids and treble. The highs are sweet and rounded, but no spikes or peaks. The Abraxas sounds "vocal" especially with a slide. It really sounds like a human voice if you want it to.
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The Abraxas (bridge) is my favourite BKP humbucker - should pair well with the Stormy Monday neck. If you want something a little creamier, then the Mule neck (or even the Crawler neck, as it's just a margainly hotter Mule) would work well.
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Thanks for your advices!
we're talking about neck only here.
so it's abraxas if i want a hot output, and mules to be softer.
Is that correct to assume that the abraxas has an output like les paul pickups, a little hotter than the classic 57 which would be similar to the mules?
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The output of the two (Abraxas & Mule) neck pickups isn't very close. 7.3 for the Mule, and 7.4 for the Abraxas. It may not be a noticeable difference.
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You want a SM neck or better, a non reversed PG Blues.
That's what Tim recommended me when i said i was after a great open, dynamic and precise jazz neck tone but didn't want the mellowness, sweet and tamed characteristics of the Manhattan.
Also i'm looking for a classic 57 with more dynamics and 'openness', less boomy in the bass, a little more bright, more precision
That IS the SM imo.
My father used Classic 57 for years and was delighted with the SM.
This entire album was recorded using SM in a 82 LP Custom (maple neck/ebony board) through a Mesa Boogie Studio Caliber and alnico Jensen speaker.
http://www.deezer.com/fr/music/paride-canestraro-quintet/blues-for-django-490528 (http://www.deezer.com/fr/music/paride-canestraro-quintet/blues-for-django-490528)
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The output of the two (Abraxas & Mule) neck pickups isn't very close. 7.3 for the Mule, and 7.4 for the Abraxas. It may not be a noticeable difference.
They are voiced quite different though, I've had both of these neck pickups in my Les Paul. The Mule neck was creamier and hotter than the Abraxas neck. The Abraxas neck is quite bright with less output than the Mule neck, I liked it for it's almost single-coil type clarity.
Depends on what you want it for. The Abraxas will get fatter if you roll the tone down, but the Mule won't be as clear - it's more about that creamy blues tone.
Overall I prefer the MQ neck, it's very clear and cleans up great. With the tone rolled off it can get nice and fat.
For jazz though, its a tough call.
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since i'm playing a lot of single notes or 2-3 note chords in a full band context, i think it's better to retain some fatness to the sound . my primary problem with the manhattan is that it doesn't cut so well in a band situation.
i think all p90 could have that. what are your thoughts/experience with that?
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The M.Qs are much more assertive than the Manhattans, and I gather ( from one of the 'old hands' on here ) that they sound somewhat fatter and less gritty than a standard P90. I once described the M.Qs as being "Certainly not shy in the showers... ".
I have not gigged them, but have of course had other B.K.P pickups to compare them to. They give an even thicker sound about 2mm from the underside of the strings, and yet retain clarity. At about 2.5 - 3mm from the underside of the ( fretted) strings is a very nice Larry Carlton ( Sapphire Blues band era ) '335' tone to my ears. much clearer in fact, with the ability to confidently push the amp if needed . As I mentioned in another thread, they sound even nicer in my 335 copy , than in a fully hollow, although, to be fair to the M.Qs, I want a really open / sweet sounds from my fully hollows ; hence them having Stormy Mondays and Manhattans in them. I put Mules in a Les Paul, as it would be rude not to ! :)
I would use the M.Qs in my 335 copy, if ever gigging again in a loud, seven piece Blues/Soul/ 50s R&B band / context.
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You want a SM neck or better, a non reversed PG Blues.
That's what Tim recommended me when i said i was after a great open, dynamic and precise jazz neck tone but didn't want the mellowness, sweet and tamed characteristics of the Manhattan.
Also i'm looking for a classic 57 with more dynamics and 'openness', less boomy in the bass, a little more bright, more precision
That IS the SM imo.
My father used Classic 57 for years and was delighted with the SM.
This entire album was recorded using SM in a 82 LP Custom (maple neck/ebony board) through a Mesa Boogie Studio Caliber and alnico Jensen speaker.
http://www.deezer.com/fr/music/paride-canestraro-quintet/blues-for-django-490528 (http://www.deezer.com/fr/music/paride-canestraro-quintet/blues-for-django-490528)
thanks for your answer.
Unfortunately, that is exactly the sound that i'm trying to avoid. i know this is the 'traditional' jazz sound. but i'm looking for a much more modern sound, inspired by rock, with higher output.
I think that might come from the hollow mids in the SM, and that i sould go for a pickkup with more mids, like the mule maybe.
Nice playing by the way, i'm playing gypsy jazz in my acoustic guitarist life too :)
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The M.Qs are much more assertive than the Manhattans, and I gather ( from one of the 'old hands' on here ) that they sound somewhat fatter and less gritty than a standard P90. I once described the M.Qs as being "Certainly not shy in the showers... ".
I have not gigged them, but have of course had other B.K.P pickups to compare them to. They give an even thicker sound about 2mm from the underside of the strings, and yet retain clarity. At about 2.5 - 3mm from the underside of the ( fretted) strings is a very nice Larry Carlton ( Sapphire Blues band era ) '335' tone to my ears. much clearer in fact, with the ability to confidently push the amp if needed . As I mentioned in another thread, they sound even nicer in my 335 copy , than in a fully hollow, although, to be fair to the M.Qs, I want a really open / sweet sounds from my fully hollows ; hence them having Stormy Mondays and Manhattans in them. I put Mules in a Les Paul, as it would be rude not to ! :)
I would use the M.Qs in my 335 copy, if ever gigging again in a loud, seven piece Blues/Soul/ 50s R&B band / context.
Thanks for your advice, fourth feline, i know your opinion is valuable.
I'm worried about having too muhc highs and 'clear' sound from a P90.
I put a seymour duncan 59 (bridge) in my 335 (neck position, yeah i'm a pirate, fear me!) yesterday, just to give it a try. i find it a bit loose and unprecise in the bass, and the bass also have a 'whooph' thing that i dont' love.
But this is much closer ot the sound i'm trying to achieve than the manhattans, maybe is lacks a bit of fatness and weight.
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I put a seymour duncan 59 (bridge) in my 335 (neck position, yeah i'm a pirate, fear me!) yesterday, just to give it a try. i find it a bit loose and unprecise in the bass, and the bass also have a 'whooph' thing that i dont' love.
But this is much closer ot the sound i'm trying to achieve than the manhattans, maybe is lacks a bit of fatness and weight.
This might sound odd, but in my thick, mahogany solidbody, the SD '59 jazz neck tone was nothing compared to my Blackhawk jazz tone. The BH is a much more articulate, focused, and modern, higher output tone. It has sweeter highs, but still this edge and body that makes it weighty on every note. You might get laughed at for the looks, but you can laugh at them for the sound!
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I put a seymour duncan 59 (bridge) in my 335 (neck position, yeah i'm a pirate, fear me!) yesterday, just to give it a try. i find it a bit loose and unprecise in the bass, and the bass also have a 'whooph' thing that i dont' love.
But this is much closer ot the sound i'm trying to achieve than the manhattans, maybe is lacks a bit of fatness and weight.
This might sound odd, but in my thick, mahogany solidbody, the SD '59 jazz neck tone was nothing compared to my Blackhawk jazz tone. The BH is a much more articulate, focused, and modern, higher output tone. It has sweeter highs, but still this edge and body that makes it weighty on every note. You might get laughed at for the looks, but you can laugh at them for the sound!
I can imagine that..
i am certain that the duncan 59 is really bad compared to as BKP, that's why i'm considering changing for a BKP, voiced in a way that i appreciate.
However since i can only buy one (and i already shouldn't afford it it i was reasonable, ... ) i am trying to find a god match.
That's also why i'd love swapping my manhattan for a mule neck for example (hint .. :) )
The seymour 59 is voiced in a way that i like .. it has a slightly dirty sound in it that i like too, but it's not precise, well defined, and open like i would like it to be.
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For your information, I just ebayed a neck emerald, one of my friend , pro jazz player, has it and it soudns awesome for what i want to play.
I'll keep you updated about this.
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I can testify that Mules are very nice for jazzy tones too. The inbetween position and the neck are full with a lot of depth and dynamics, but crispy at the the same time. And I like the nearly perfect balance of Mules. Mine are in an all mahogany bolt-on Saint Blues Mississippi Bluesmaster.