Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: kellar on August 22, 2012, 05:07:54 PM
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Hey folks! Was hoping the wealth of knowledge in this forum could help me out a little. I am looking for a versatile amp that can do anything from blues rock to metal well. My price range is around $1,000 and I may be able to stretch that a little. I prefer a combo but would be open to a head/cab setup if the price is right. I am trying to limit my use of pedals and would prefer to utilize the channels and distortion on the amp. The story is that I have been playing a Fender Frontman with a load of pedals out in front of it and it is not cutting it in the current band I am in that wants to play things along the line of Alice in Chains, Kyng, etc. I think it is finally time to drop a little money on the amp since I have been avoiding it for so long. I am also in a blues rock band currently so those juicy blues tones are also essential.
Anyway, thanks for the advise. I look forward to your feedback.
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- post removed, you are in Germany not US ;) -
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Actually no I am not. I live in the US. I used to live in Germany. Why would you remove my post for that?
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Actually no I am not. I live in the US. I used to live in Germany. Why would you remove my post for that?
Ah right!
Well, I suggested in this case I would demo a Splawn. Since they are based in the US, I think you can get better value buying there.
But there are lots of other cool amp makers in the US.
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Got it! I will check out Splawn. That is a new name for me. I have also researched Engl, Rivera, Laney, and a host of others. Still checking out a few other names as well.
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Got it! I will check out Splawn. That is a new name for me. I have also researched Engl, Rivera, Laney, and a host of others. Still checking out a few other names as well.
They do the boutique hot-rod Marshall thing.. 2 channels, clean and dirty, with a solo boost on some of them.
I have no idea what gear Alice In Chains use, but it always sounded Marshally to me, so I thought of Splawn. I'm sure a 2nd hand one is in the budget.
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The Alice in Chains tone is meant to be a Bogner. Maybe the fish preamp and something else. Or a modded JCM800. I've seen photos of what is MEANT to be the bogner modded 800 used by Cantrell. If it is that amp, it has been very very heavily modded.
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I have read up a bit on Bogner but never played through one. Very high end price-wise as well. Anyone have experience with them?
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I used to have an Uberschall, but I ended up moving it on. I don't think it is the best amp for what want either. The XTC is probably on the right track. Very versatile. I'm not familiar with the rest of the range. You're right though. Expensive! They are very high and very well made amplifiers though.
I think you're on the right track maybe with what you have already mentioned. You might still end up with a couple of pedals depending on what you can get from any amp, but that shouldn't put you off. defo check out splawn still.
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Blackstar and Jet City amps have been making a bit of noise over here in the States. Look interesting as well, especially the Jet City amps that are modeled after Soldano. I may see if I can track one down to give it a spin.
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Both good by all accounts.
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So I have also been sorting through Bugera (very cheap), Egnater, Laney, and the Line 6 DT25 has caught my eye which is unusual because I don't generally go that direction (modeling). I have no background on these brands as I have mostly owned Fender amps. Interested in any feedback you could offer.
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Laney in the UK depending on what you find can be great value you money. Bugera I'm not a fan of the build quality in any way. They are cheap for a reason. Egnater I've not personally played but others here have. Actually I've had a go on some of the modular cards stuff.
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Maybe take a look at a Marshall 6100. Great cleans, great crunch channel for anything from 60's rock to 80's rock, and a solo channel that can very easily take you into metal territory. Lots of cool features and tone shaping options too. Great tones and great value IMO, a very overlooked and underrated amp.
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I'm getting a Laney Ironheart tomorrow, that may fit your bill. After researching and playing it, I've found it incredibly versatile. Youtube yourself some clips.
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Maybe take a look at a Marshall 6100. Great cleans, great crunch channel for anything from 60's rock to 80's rock, and a solo channel that can very easily take you into metal territory. Lots of cool features and tone shaping options too. Great tones and great value IMO, a very overlooked and underrated amp.
I personally think that, along with the JMP, this amp is marshalls greatest creation and if TS could get hold of one it'd be amazing... But they're very hard to get hold of. They do go for quite reasonable prices though.
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Maybe take a look at a Marshall 6100. Great cleans, great crunch channel for anything from 60's rock to 80's rock, and a solo channel that can very easily take you into metal territory. Lots of cool features and tone shaping options too. Great tones and great value IMO, a very overlooked and underrated amp.
I personally think that, along with the JMP, this amp is marshalls greatest creation and if TS could get hold of one it'd be amazing... But they're very hard to get hold of. They do go for quite reasonable prices though.
Yeah, I don't see the combos up for sale very often, but when they are, you can usually get one for under $1000. Jim made it very well known that the 6100 was his favorite amp he made, and believed he would never again be able to make something comparable to it. I think the only reason it isn't at star status right now is because it is an anniversary amp, thus made in limited quantities.
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I suggest you take a second glance at Egnater. Their HG (high gain) series is comming out soon.
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Blackstar and Jet City amps have been making a bit of noise over here in the States. Look interesting as well, especially the Jet City amps that are modeled after Soldano. I may see if I can track one down to give it a spin.
some of the blackstars aren't all-tube- the HT series... actually i think i've heard rumours that even the series one isn't technically all-tube either, but it's maybe just one transistor or something, as opposed to the HTs which are about 50:50. Doesn't matter if you like the tone, but it pays to go in with your eyes open.
I picked up a 50 watt jet city head from thomann when they were blowing them out- at the price i paid (£250) it's killer. if you want the high gain thing, though, be careful which model you get- the 50 and 100 watt heads are high gain, but the jca20 and 2x12 50 watt combo aren't (from what i hear- i've only tried mine). the jca22 and 1x12 50 watt combo are high gain. Don't quote me on those model numbers in case i've got them back to front :lol:
Not sure i'd want one for blues, though- they don't really have a clean channel (if mine's anything to go by) and the lead channel is balls to the wall, all the time. :lol:
really liked the bogner ecstacy i tried- but it's super-expensive. Maybe a little less so in the states but i still think they have the rep of being pretty dear. Shiva might be worth a look but might not get heavy enough for you.
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Well... I've just realised...
Take a look at the Orange TH30. Excellent amp, covers grunge, classic rock, metal and blues VERY well just with its distortion channel. The distortion channel is one of the best sounding and most versatile distortion channels I've ever played and many people that I know can vouch for that too. MOUNTAINS of gain on tap but with the gain turned just under half way it does grunge and blues like a dream. Turn up the gain and you get a thick and smooth yet angry metal sound which is also somehow very reminiscent of Gary moores tone in The Loner.
The clean channel is like a Vox ac30 with far more headroom... It's pretty hard to crank it.
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some of the blackstars aren't all-tube- the HT series... actually i think i've heard rumours that even the series one isn't technically all-tube either, but it's maybe just one transistor or something, as opposed to the HTs which are about 50:50. Doesn't matter if you like the tone, but it pays to go in with your eyes open.
I think this only applies to the HT-5 and not the 20, 40, 60, etc, but I've heard either way. I don't mind if it is some SS parts it sounds good to me.
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Great feedback, thanks so much. I did some more searching and am looking at these. Still torn on whether I want the combo or half stack versions:
Egnater Renegade 4x10 Combo (Rebel and Tweaker also look very enticing)
Peavey Valve King and 6505 (heard very mixed reviews on these and loud!)
Jet City JCA 100H
Line 6 DT25 and 50
Blackstar HT50
Also, the Buddha Superdrive looks interesting but I know nothing about the product. Laney also looks very nice but very hard to find in Colorado to try out.
Cleans and blues tones are very important but my current band is leaning on bands like Alice in Chains, Tool, and Kyng. I am tired of buying and amps and want one that is going to satisfy my needs for some time. I have made the mistake of jumping into a purchase before without doing the proper research and have been disappointed every time.
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I think this only applies to the HT-5 and not the 20, 40, 60, etc, but I've heard either way. I don't mind if it is some SS parts it sounds good to me.
pretty sure it applies to all of them (apart from maybe the 100, and i'd still want to see a schematic of the 100 to be sure it's all-tube). only two 12ax7s (one of which, more or less, would need to be used for the PI for it to be properly considered all-tube) for a pretty high gain amp with multiple channels? I call shenanigans. :lol:
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Great feedback, thanks so much. I did some more searching and am looking at these. Still torn on whether I want the combo or half stack versions:
Egnater Renegade 4x10 Combo (Rebel and Tweaker also look very enticing)
Peavey Valve King and 6505 (heard very mixed reviews on these and loud!)
Jet City JCA 100H
Line 6 DT25 and 50
Blackstar HT50
Also, the Buddha Superdrive looks interesting but I know nothing about the product. Laney also looks very nice but very hard to find in Colorado to try out.
Cleans and blues tones are very important but my current band is leaning on bands like Alice in Chains, Tool, and Kyng. I am tired of buying and amps and want one that is going to satisfy my needs for some time. I have made the mistake of jumping into a purchase before without doing the proper research and have been disappointed every time.
The Valve King is very poor. You'll need to mod the hell out of it to get a nice tone. It also has very little gain on tap. The 6505 is very good... if not a bit generic. But the clean channel is less than inspiring. in my opinion the crunch channel is very impressive... more so than the lead channel which is just there to show off the gain on tap.
The Jet City and Line 6 amps are also very impressive... I've never really liked blackstars... they sound sterile and i find it difficult to buy from a company that claims that their products are something which they are not...
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I've never really liked blackstars... they sound sterile and i find it difficult to buy from a company that claims that their products are something which they are not...
Can you elaborate? I'm just interested in your opinion.
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I've never really liked blackstars... they sound sterile and i find it difficult to buy from a company that claims that their products are something which they are not...
Can you elaborate? I'm just interested in your opinion.
Sure.
It simply has far less dynamics than some of the tube amps that I've played. It FEELS like a modeler... Sounds far better though. A bit like an EMG.
As far as the "lying about their products" goes... They advertise their HT-Series as All Tube yet it's about 50:50 as someone here has already mentioned...
It's like buying "filmed in the cinema" dvds of a street crook but on a much smaller scale.
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Yeah, I just tried out the Peaveys and pretty much scratched them off the list. Way more power than I need in the 6505 and the cleans were not very inspiring. The Valve King took less than 5 minutes of playing on to reach the decision.
The JetCity looks very nice but do the 50 and 100 watt versions carry the gain that I need? I realize I will have to throw a pedal at it for boost but I don't want to fall in blues rock, classic rock territory. Hoping that there is some modern drive in that thing.
Egnater products look great but I havent found one that I can try out. Same with Laney (which is also a bit high on the price end).
Line 6 DT50 looks really promising but I will be honest, all the programming and digital nonsense scares me away.
Interesting to hear about the Blackstar. Reviews seem to be pretty positive.
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I play amps that the 100watt JC's are based on, and I think they have enough gain to get pretty heavy! You might want a boost if you want to get really metal. I play pretty heavy and that SLO style circuit is my favourite. the JCA100H is based on the Soldano Hot Rod. The JCA20 is like an old Soldano Atomic I think. very different amp.
Itamar.
I've never played a blackstar other than a little HT-5. Fine for a practice amp I thought. I don't think the Series One's have lots of solid state bits in the signal path? I can't really find where on the website they really describe some things at 'all tube'. Though granted, the HT info they don't really mention them being hybrids as such. I don't really have a problem with the use of solid state, depending on how it's used. In some situations I'd probably prefer it to a valve.
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i've only tried mine (JCA50H), but mine has absolutely tons of gain. Like... i run the gain at 3 on the overdrive channel (granted i use a boost, a danelectro timmy clone- but before i tried it with the boost i had the gain about 5, it's not like it needs the boost, just i'm so used to using a boost now that i prefer it). The normal channel has enough gain for hard rock/80s metal, lol, let alone the overdrive channel.
the only thing i'd say it, it's not a totally modern type of tone- it's tons of gain, but in a late 80s type of way. But yeah, tons of distortion in there unless there's something wrong with mine.
EDIT: yeah as dmoney says you need to make sure you get the models which are high gain, but as long as you do, it should have enough gain/distortion. Obviously i can't say for sure, but it has enough for me, anyway.
EDIT #2: ^ i don't think the series ones have "loads of solid state stuff" like the HT series does- it's like one transistor or something. But even one means it's not "all-tube". Plus as i said, I haven't seen a schematic, I only heard it in passing from someone on some forum who said he'd seen the schematic and that, while it was a lot more tube than the HT series, it wasn't technically "all-tube" either.
I'm not sure Blackstar has ever described the HT series as "all-tube". However, they strongly imply it is (and iirc there was an official youtube video from blackstar where one of their workers described the ht5 as "all-tube"), they don't correct guitar mags when they review them and say they're all-tube, they say the ht5 is based on their pedals, and their pedals have "pure tube" plastered all over them.
They don't actually flat out say it (that youtube vid notwithstanding), but they strongly imply it to the extent that, in my opinion anyway, they might as well be.
FWIW I agree with you regarding the solid state stuff- it's actually the "right" way to build a hybrid (rather than that valvestate nonsense with like one miserly preamp tube), and the irony is that had they been a bit more upfront about how the thing was designed and made, the forums would probably have been singing their praises. But they didn't so we aren't. :lol:
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I'd agree with Dave_MC.
The SLO lead circuit has enough gain for most people. I also agree with him saying it's a bit 80's. I feel like it is possible to get away from that though, like I'll scoop the mids or use the presence and depth controls to alter it a lot. I feel like any amp with MORE distortion/gain available isn't for me. Granted, I don't own a jet city, but in theory my amps are similar.
EDIT: Cheers for that! I've heard of people swearing their HT5's are all tube. wrong! Yeah, if they had SS effects loops or maybe even reverb drivers and recovery stages or something I wouldn't care. As long as they are designed correctly. I didn't know about any of those things you just mentioned. Cheers.
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Thanks Dave. I was leaning on the JCA50 half stack version from the beginning, much cheaper than some of the other amps I was looking at as well. Talk to me about the cleans and lower gain applications such as blues. Sounds like a pretty versatile amp based on what you say.
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^ (dmoney) yeah i mean i tried the avenger ages back, and while the jet city isn't as good, it's in the ballpark. you'd know it was based on a soldano, kind of thing. the jet city doesn't have the depth mod... there's a dearer one but i haven't tried it. And yeah, i mean you can obviously alter the tone etc. to a certain extent, but i just mean that the vibe it gives off without some tweaking is pretty 80s- it's pretty bright (though it's a lot smoother and more refined than a hot-rod marshall type of thing- it has one foot into the more modern high gain camp, kind of thing).
Also check my edit in the above post, i edited in some more info about blackstar for you. :)
^ versatility is the problem. You can dial in a sorta dirty clean type tone on the normal channel, but it's not amazing. i guess you could play classic rock ok, but it's not its forte.
it's versatile in that it can do hard rock through to modern metal, but it doesn't have great cleans and the lower gain drive tones can be a bit thin.
as i said, some of the other ones (allegedly) do the lower gain thing a bit better, but then (also allegedly, as i said, i haven't tried them) they don't seem to have the high gain capability the jca50 and 100 have.
actually... what might be worth pointing out is, if the Jet City is well under budget (and sounds as good to you as the dearer high gain amps), it might be an idea to look at some other amps as well. For example, combine the jet city with a fender blues junior or peavey classic 30 or traynor ycv40/50 or something like that (or a clone of a marshall 18 watter or fender deluxe or something like that- as far as i'm aware there are several good value companies in the US making amps like that, though I haven't tried them so have no idea what they're like). Even super expensive multichannel superamps like the bogner ecstacy and engl se rarely do everything perfectly, because there are so many differences between different amp designs (not to mention cab and speaker design)- often two good amps aimed specifically at the tones you want will do those tones better than a much more expensive multichannel superamp will. So that's worth bearing in mind, I think.
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cheers for those edits.
I agree with everything you say about the soldano style lead circuit. I don't know why the JC amp with the depth mod costs much more. It's a pretty easy mod I think. I've never played a hot rod, although the Avenger is built on the hot rod PCB.
How is the clean if you crank the clean channel master volume and then alter the level more with the preamp gain?
I own a real loopless SLO100 now in addition to the Avenger. long story. It is however... a beast! (still, one foot in the 80's kind of beast!)
I just peeped the Jet City site. I dunno about the JCA22H. The 50H, 100H and 100HDM are going to be the best bet for what you want.
also... check out this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=253bPoC6ISw
its basically a cornford MK50 from what I can make out, though it isn't on the site.
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So staying on the Jet City kick (since this is where it has led me), the JCA 50H paired with the 2x12 cab looks nice but I did notice that they have a 50 watt combo version with 2x12 speakers and reverb (which was missing from the other versions). Hmmmmmm...........
Also, that Line 6 DT50 is still bugging me.........
And, has anyone taken the Eganter 65 watt Renegade for a spin?
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So staying on the Jet City kick (since this is where it has led me), the JCA 50H paired with the 2x12 cab looks nice but I did notice that they have a 50 watt combo version with 2x12 speakers and reverb (which was missing from the other versions). Hmmmmmm...........
Also, that Line 6 DT50 is still bugging me.........
And, has anyone taken the Eganter 65 watt Renegade for a spin?
The 50w 2x12 Combo has very little gain on tap... It's not ideal.
As for the Egnater Renegade... I had huge GAS for this for months and a few users here can really put in a good word or two for it. It wont to modern metal without a good boost but it does everything from blues to 80s metal very well. I almost went for it but the Orange TH30 edged it in a "final battle" because the distortion channel was more versatile yet the whole setup was far simpler. I have no need for all of the silly tweaks that people are putting on amps nowadays.
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That Egnater Renegade looks incredible. I love the "tube mix" control, onbaord reverb, and switchable 65 to 18 watt option. Looks like a great amp. Now, what cab would I pair it with?
Still waiting for someone to tell me this is a great amp. I think it's down to the Egnater Renegade or Jet City JCA 50H.
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That Egnater Renegade looks incredible. I love the "tube mix" control, onbaord reverb, and switchable 65 to 18 watt option. Looks like a great amp. Now, what cab would I pair it with?
Still waiting for someone to tell me this is a great amp. I think it's down to the Egnater Renegade or Jet City JCA 50H.
It is a great amp, I didn't make it clear but a have played it... three times. I really liked it a lot.
There's an obvious price difference but if you had to choose between the egnater and the jet city there shouldnt even be a doubt in your mind... not to say the jet city is a bad amp... but the egnater is excellent.
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The Renegade is one of the better Egnaters - played that one in a shop and like it way more then the Rebels - and more versatile then the Jet City.
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Alright, pulling the trigger. Going with the Egnater Renegade head and Egnater Tourmaster 2x12 cab. I will give a full review in a couple of weeks. Thanks for your help everyone.
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EDIT: Cheers for that! I've heard of people swearing their HT5's are all tube. wrong! Yeah, if they had SS effects loops or maybe even reverb drivers and recovery stages or something I wouldn't care. As long as they are designed correctly. I didn't know about any of those things you just mentioned. Cheers.
No problem :)
Yep, exactly- obviously in an ideal world i'd probably rather have tube-driven reverb and fx loop (though i've heard some people say that solid state drivers for those can actually be better... i have no idea :lol: ), but it doesn't stop the thing from being "all-tube" (especially if you can bypass them/turn them off). But solid state amplification/clipping/phase inverter *does" stop it from being all-tube.And if I'm paying the sort of prices associated with all-tube stuff, I want it to be all-tube. Apart from anything, if there's tons of SS stuff in the amp, a cheap all tube 5 watter (like a vht special 6 or something like that) combined with a couple of pedals is probably as tube (maybe more so) than the blackstar, and a lot cheaper, too. plus you can turn the pedals off (so it actually is all-tube), not to mention mix and match pedals to get the exact sound you want.
cheers for those edits.
I agree with everything you say about the soldano style lead circuit. I don't know why the JC amp with the depth mod costs much more. It's a pretty easy mod I think. I've never played a hot rod, although the Avenger is built on the hot rod PCB.
How is the clean if you crank the clean channel master volume and then alter the level more with the preamp gain?
I own a real loopless SLO100 now in addition to the Avenger. long story. It is however... a beast! (still, one foot in the 80's kind of beast!)
I just peeped the Jet City site. I dunno about the JCA22H. The 50H, 100H and 100HDM are going to be the best bet for what you want.
also... check out this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=253bPoC6ISw
its basically a cornford MK50 from what I can make out, though it isn't on the site.
no problem :)
I'm guessing it's a lot dearer because everyone wants the depth mod :lol: It is a shame it's not on the cheaper ones (though i got mine cheap enough that it's not a problem- but if i were paying full price i'd want the depth mod, kind of thing).
i think the jca22 has the same preamp as the 50H and 100H (that's what they say, anyway), though how the el84s affect things, I dunno. But more headroom is normally better for high gain, so yeah, odds are the 50 or 100 watt heads are the thing.
The 50w 2x12 Combo has very little gain on tap... It's not ideal.
+1, it's based on the lucky 13, as far as i'm aware. It's not one of the high gainers. If you want a combo (i think) the 1x12 50 watt combo has the high gain overdrive circuit.
Haven't tied any egnaters- they might be great, I just haven't been able to try them. :)
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So I have another question guys (thanks for all the great advice thus far). I have my Egnater Renegade head and 2x12 Tourmaster cab on order and I can barely contain myself. Naturally, I am getting a little ahead of myself but this "metal" stuff is new territory for me so I will ask:
I played around on one and have read ton of reviews and while there is plenty of gain to be had, it borders more on a hard rock voicing and I know I will want an added boost to really achieve the tone I am looking for. Should I be looking for a simple overdrive/boost pedal to use when I need that added "oomph" or go with a metal/distortion pedal straight away?
A few examples of the tones I am looking for: Tool, Alice in Chains, Deftones. Like I said, I have sort of fallen into this heavy metal thing and while it is new for me, I have to say it is fun and very exciting! What are you guys using to push your amps?
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overdrive
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Something cheap like a Boss Super Overdrive?
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Something cheap like a Boss Super Overdrive?
That'd actually work better for those tones that a tubescreamer type overdrive.
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Or, something like this on the clean channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XscZPYKzXIQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XscZPYKzXIQ)
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Wow. That sounds like someone took Meshuggah and stuffed them in that box. I will definitely look into that.
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Wow. That sounds like someone took Meshuggah and stuffed them in that box. I will definitely look into that.
Emma-pedals are build for life. I have the Emma Reezafratzitz-distortion now for eight years. Keeps your tone dynamic and thick. Also sounds great on lower gainsettings. It has never let me down. The Pisdywauyot is on my list too, just to have fun now and then.
BTW, I use the Suhr Riot on the clean channel of my Rockerverb to obtain severe highgain-sounds at low volumes. Works great too.
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Something cheap like a Boss Super Overdrive?
yep, that should be fine. there are several cheapish clones of tubescreamers too from the likes of joyo, tonerider, etc. It's ages since i've tried an sd1, but as itamar says it might be better for the heavier stuff. I seem to remember it's a bit edgier than a tubescreamer (and the massive mid hump of a tubescreamer can sometimes be a bit much into middy amps). For that reason i use a danelectro v1 transparent overdrive (cheap timmy clone) as my rhythm tone boost as it's more transparent, and then use a joyo ts clone for a lead boost.
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I played around on one and have read ton of reviews and while there is plenty of gain to be had, it borders more on a hard rock voicing and I know I will want an added boost to really achieve the tone I am looking for. Should I be looking for a simple overdrive/boost pedal to use when I need that added "oomph" or go with a metal/distortion pedal straight away?
A few examples of the tones I am looking for: Tool, Alice in Chains, Deftones. Like I said, I have sort of fallen into this heavy metal thing and while it is new for me, I have to say it is fun and very exciting! What are you guys using to push your amps?
There's no one-size-fits-all answer to this - you'll have to find out by yourself what works best for you, since the result really depends on the exact guitar / pedal / amp combo and how you set them. To summarize (and overly simplify), there are two main solutions:
1/ full-blown distortion pedal on a clean amp
2/ "dirt-boost" on a dirty amp
The first one is usually the simplest to get right - you just have to find a distortion pedal with the right voicing - but it can easily sound a bit "synthetic", at least with solid-state pedals. A true tube-based pedal can give better results, but beware, most of the so-called "tube" pedals are snake-oil (not that they are necessarily bad, but the tube is too often only used to warm the sound a bit while the distortion still comes from silicon - and sometimes the tube is not even on the signal path :-/). Also the good tube-based pedals are far from cheap.
The second solution is way more touchy. Basically, it's about using an OD on low/mid gain settings and full volume to push the already overdriven preamp a bit farther. Part of the trick is to correctly adjust the settings on both the pedal and amp. The other part of the trick is to find the pedal(s) that will work fine with your amp (and guitar of course), and given the tweaking required to make both work together it can be a rather involved process. Also, it doesn't work with all amps - my experience is that the more gain available on the amp, the less it takes dirt-boost fine. IOW, this usually works better with more vintagey amps than with modern hi-gain ones (OTHO, those amps are supposed to have enough gain on tap that you don't need to push them further...).
There are of course "intermediate" solutions that are still based on stacking low/mid gain stages, usually on a "about-to-breakup-but-still-clean" amp (ie David Gilmour's booster => fuzz => pushed Hiwatt amp or SRV's tube-screamer => tube-screamer => pushed Fender amp), but it's still more or less about stacking gain stages, and getting the respective gain / clipping level right.
My current amp is a custom made thingie with a blackface clean channel (one gain stage), an "orangeish" crunch channel (two gain stages so think of a fat bluesy crunch), and a SLO-inspired hi-gain channel (four gain stages - the SLO has five). The clean and crunch channel are very pedal-friendly and work fine with about any of the OD / distortion / fuzz I tried, I mostly use a Xotic EP Booster and a home-made TS-808-based OD here. The SLO channel doesn't require anything more IMHO, but from what I tried only the Dano CTO-1 (which dave_mc mentioned) works with it - and it has to be set on low gain and not too much above unity volume. Anything else is just OTT and ruins the tone. FWIW, the CTO is also the only dirt-box I found to work with our singer's Peavey Classic 30 gain channel (while the clean channel takes anything ok).
To make a long story short: the best modern hi-gain I've had so far were with either a hi-gain tube pedal on a clean amp or a true hi-gain amp - and the best old-school hard-rock tones with a stack of either two OD or a treble boost + OD on a cranked vintagey amp.
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^ agreed, and good write-up- except:
(i) It's hard to get that modern high gain super-saturated tone without using an od as a pseudo-clean boost into a high gain amp's overdrive/distortion channel- as you said, pedal into clean amp rarely cuts it, and sounds (and more importantly, feels) fake.
(ii) although you say it's touchy and I would agree in principle, it's actually not that touchy, at least in my experience, in practice. Basically go with either a tubescreamer-alike if the amp needs more mids and needs to be tightened up in the bass, or go with something more transparent (e.g. timmy) if you don't need the mids. I mean when you think about it there are only about 3 different overdrive pedals in existence, the vast majority of od pedals available are (slight) variations (if even) on a theme.
Maybe i've just been lucky, but any of the ones I have tried with a boost worked better with it. :)
(iii) if you're getting an expensive high gain amp and aren't using the overdrive channel as the main generator of your distortion why on earth did you buy the amp? :lol:
(using a pedal as a boost is ok and even recommended, I mean using a distortion pedal over the clean channel is daft, unless you want a different flavour of distortion tone occasionally.)
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Basically you're right. But I experienced that I can't use the real potential of the drivechannel my Orange Rockerverb at half of our gigs. It really starts to sing with the master past 12.00, but then everybody gets crazy, the man at the mixingconsole too. In those cases I use a Suhr Riot on the clean channel and steer with the volume of the guitar. At bigger gigs I use a clean/fat-boost and od's and distortionpedals to boost the drivechannel just a bit.
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^ agreed, and good write-up- except:
(i) It's hard to get that modern high gain super-saturated tone without using an od as a pseudo-clean boost into a high gain amp's overdrive/distortion channel
Well, I'm not into metal - unless you consider AiC as metal -, so I can't really say, but so far my amp's hi-gain channel has enough gain to not require anything more IMHO ;)
(ii) although you say it's touchy and I would agree in principle, it's actually not that touchy, at least in my experience, in practice.
Yeps, I didn't mean to imply it was rocket science neither - just that it could be a somewhat more involved process.
Maybe i've just been lucky, but any of the ones I have tried with a boost worked better with it. :)
Or maybe I've just stumbled on the ones that worked better without a boost :lol:
(iii) if you're getting an expensive high gain amp and aren't using the overdrive channel as the main generator of your distortion why on earth did you buy the amp? :lol:
Answers #1 : cf Telerocker's post.
Answer #2:
I mean using a distortion pedal over the clean channel is daft, unless you want a different flavour of distortion tone occasionally.
this ^
@Telerocker:
Basically you're right. But I experienced that I can't use the real potential of the drivechannel my Orange Rockerverb at half of our gigs. It really starts to sing with the master past 12.00, but then everybody gets crazy, the man at the mixingconsole too.
Yeps, even with these hi-gain amps where almost all of the distortion comes from the preamp, you still need to push the power amp (and speakers) quite hard to get the right tone and feel, there's something just not happening if you don't. 50W is already too much for most cases in my experience.
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The first one is usually the simplest to get right - you just have to find a distortion pedal with the right voicing - but it can easily sound a bit "synthetic", at least with solid-state pedals. A true tube-based pedal can give better results, but beware, most of the so-called "tube" pedals are snake-oil (not that they are necessarily bad, but the tube is too often only used to warm the sound a bit while the distortion still comes from silicon - and sometimes the tube is not even on the signal path :-/). Also the good tube-based pedals are far from cheap.
You rang ;)
http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/stompage/toob.html
The only silicon in ours is in the buffer and power supply. Signal is 100% tube otherwise. There's only a buffer on the output as they can sometimes bugger with pedals down the chain without it (usually other valve stuff) and the one we use is very transparent.
They do have their own 'warmer' flavour. For metal it'd all depends on what you're feeding. The valve stuff I find works better with an amp that's already on the edge of breakup, even then I'd be tempted to push the valve pedal with a Klone...
That tends to be particularly effective ;) But, if you already have an amp with an OD/Dirty channel, they're a little pointless as they'll be voiced very similarly.
Welcome to come and try stuff if you're in the area.
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Basically you're right. But I experienced that I can't use the real potential of the drivechannel my Orange Rockerverb at half of our gigs. It really starts to sing with the master past 12.00, but then everybody gets crazy, the man at the mixingconsole too. In those cases I use a Suhr Riot on the clean channel and steer with the volume of the guitar. At bigger gigs I use a clean/fat-boost and od's and distortionpedals to boost the drivechannel just a bit.
that's fair enough :)
I still wonder how a pedal sounds better than the od channel, though, even at low volumes. I mean maybe my ears suck, but I always prefer tube distortion (even if it's entirely preamp-generated) or mainly-tube distortion (e.g. a boost into an already overdriven amp) to a pedal generating all the distortion.
(a) Well, I'm not into metal - unless you consider AiC as metal -, so I can't really say, but so far my amp's hi-gain channel has enough gain to not require anything more IMHO ;)
(b) Yeps, I didn't mean to imply it was rocket science neither - just that it could be a somewhat more involved process.
(c) Or maybe I've just stumbled on the ones that worked better without a boost :lol:
(d) Answers #1 : cf Telerocker's post.
Answer #2:
I mean using a distortion pedal over the clean channel is daft, unless you want a different flavour of distortion tone occasionally.
this ^
(e) Yeps, even with these hi-gain amps where almost all of the distortion comes from the preamp, you still need to push the power amp (and speakers) quite hard to get the right tone and feel, there's something just not happening if you don't. 50W is already too much for most cases in my experience.
(a) sure, but i still generally find i prefer it with the gain rolled back a little and hit with a boost instead... it's overdriving a different part of the amp's circuit (first gain stage or two) rather than those later down the chain. I mean... those later down the chain are still overdriving, obviously, but not just as much, and instead of getting no dirt from the first gain stage or two, now you are.
I think. :lol:
(b) yep, you definitely do need to pay attention to the voicing of the amp and the pedal to make sure it sounds the way you want.
(c) that may be so :lol:
as i said, though, my amps have plenty of gain without a boost but i still prefer the tone and feel with one.
(d) #1: true, but as i said, personally i find the tone of an overdrive channel, even at low volumes, better than any pedal i've tried
#2: if it's only a separate flavour, it's not really the main generator of the distortion- you're only using that different tone occasionally.
(e) I agree that they sound better up loud, but (in my opinion, anyway) they don't have to get *that* loud to start sounding good. Far better than a pedal, anyway, in my opinion.
:)
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Really good stuff guys. I should have the amp on Tuesday so I will let you know what it s capable of.
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Hey Juan - could you do a STM800 (Boobtube Twin) type pedal based on the front end of a tweed Fender Bassman?
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My current amp is a custom made thingie with a blackface clean channel (one gain stage), an "orangeish" crunch channel (two gain stages so think of a fat bluesy crunch), and a SLO-inspired hi-gain channel (four gain stages - the SLO has five).
SLO lead is a 4 gain stage circuit really. Just sayin'
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Hey Juan - could you do a STM800 (Boobtube Twin) type pedal based on the front end of a tweed Fender Bassman?
We can certainly try. Though we tried to do one based on an early Mesa and it was difficult to get it to sound good as a stomp. I suspect it might be similar. Something to have a go at when we've caught up, which will be after I've built my amp too ;)
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SLO lead is a 4 gain stage circuit really. Just sayin'
Uh ? Always thought it had five - but you certainly know better than me ;)
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Dunno much about the internals and what constitutes a gain stage, but the SLO def has 5 preamp valves. Whether one of those does something other than being a gain stage, I have no idea
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Each valve contains 2 triodes which can be used as gain stages but they can indeed do things other than being stages that add to distortion, although they may still contribute to the overall character of the circuit.
Some valves will be shared by the clean & overdrive channels in some amps. For example, in the SLO V1 contains the main shared input gain stage for both channels and the second stage for the clean channel, while both halves of V2 are only in the overdrive channel. V3, V4 and V5 are shared by both channels.
That explains why if you ever look at an amplifier schematic, you might see V1A and V1B labeling two halves of the same valve.
In the Avenger, half of one of the preamp valves isn't used for anything. A loopless SLO doesn't include V4, which is a recovery stage for the loop and a cathode follower to drive the tone stack. In the Avenger and loopless SLO, V3 is used as a gain stage, and tone stack driver.
Now to further complicate things, in the SLO, the channel switching method allows bleed through from the clean channel to the overdrive channel, so technically speaker the half of V1 in the clean channel can be heard in the Overdrive channel. It's more apparent if you use the clean channel in crunch mode and crank the gain.
There a LOTS of arguments to be had over what makes that circuit sound awesome and I'm glossing over a lot of it, but essentially, one 12AX7 can be two gain stages and can be shared between channels in a multichannel amp. sometimes manufactures make it clear (VHT springs to mind), and sometimes they don't (Peavey 5150's spring to mind)
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Dunno much about the internals and what constitutes a gain stage, but the SLO def has 5 preamp valves. Whether one of those does something other than being a gain stage, I have no idea
Fx loop.
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SLO lead is a 4 gain stage circuit really. Just sayin'
yeah looks like 4 to me (assuming 2 of the gain stages are for the clean channel, and i think they are, but my electronics knowledge is pretty shaky at best :lol: )
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SLO lead is a 4 gain stage circuit really. Just sayin'
Uh ? Always thought it had five - but you certainly know better than me ;)
Or not, in fact : http://www.ampbooks.com/home/classic-circuits/soldano-slo-preamp-5/
Seems like it's really 5 gain stages ;)
Dunno much about the internals and what constitutes a gain stage, but the SLO def has 5 preamp valves. Whether one of those does something other than being a gain stage, I have no idea
The canonical guitar preamp valve - the 12AX7 (and it's sisters 12A-whatever-7) - is a double triode, IOW two valves in one. Each triode can be used a effective gain stage or for impedance adaptation (buffering), in both cases for the preamp's gain by itself but also as reverb / fx loop drivers and recovery stages. They are also used as phase inverser (the very last stage before the power valves), requiring one or two (most often two) triodes.
IOW: with 5 12AX7 you have a potential for 10 gain stages, but some of the triodes will not be used that way. wrt/ slo, you already have 2 triodes for the PI and 2 used as cathode followers (impedance adapters) in the last two gain stages. This leaves 6 triodes, 5 of which are the 5 gain stages for the lead channel. I assume the remaining one is used by the clean channel...
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between that stage and the stage before it, you're not getting much in terms of gain or distortion. The SLO loop is a very poor one. You can argue that the cathode follower has an impact on the tone even though it doesn't increase gain and yes, it is driven by a 'gain stage'... it's the recovery stage for the loop and a cathode follower to drive the tone stack.
If you look at the output of the 4th stage cathode follower, there is a drop in signal level before the fx send jack. That level is lifted again at the recovery stage and the full output of the 5th stages cathode follower is passed to the tone stack. I'm distinguishing the cathode followers because they are 1 triode (half of a valve) but they have unity gain.
Between the FX loop send stage and the return stage V3B and V4A, there isn't much going on to increase overall gain of the preamp, although one of those stages is a gain stage.
You can ditch V4 like in my SLO and you get....
Shared input stage > gain stage > cold bias clipping stage > gain stage > Cathode follower > Tone Stack > MV > Phase Inverter.
I'd argue that 99% of the SLO's character comes from the first 4 stages plus a cathode follower to drive the tone stack.
I'm sure I've read that Mike Soldano prefers the amp without the loop. That setup is basically the Avenger, and its definitely what's in my SLO, which has no socket for V4.
EDIT: I just read that site again, seen it in the past. There is a 34dB reduction in signal level before the FX send, and the 5th 'gain stage' gives a 33dB increase. So the 5th gain stage's contribution is somewhat questionable.
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Mike does indeed prefer the amp without the loop, and, if requested they will build an SLO without it, not sure about leaving out a socket or valve though, pretty sure he doesn't do that.
The avenger is basically the SLO overdrive circuit, although it's missing components like the Deyoung transformers which most devotees say is a major part of the sound.
Head over to the Soldano Forums, very helpful and enthusiastic guys, one of which is a guy called James L Burke (JLB) who is our direct line to Mike Soldano. He's a dealer and has an exclusive amp that you can't buy anywhere else.
if you do head over, do not mention clones. That will initiate an immediate and hostile reaction... They are great guys, but very protective of their (our) chosen brand.
My only quibble period with soldano's is the line level loop. I don't like digital by and large and it's nigh on impossible to find a line level analog delay in stomp box form.. The I relented and bought a Nova repeater which is admittedly excellent, but i have "teleporter" anxiety about it..
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My slo100 is a real slo100, so he left out the socket and valve in mine at least. It has a plastic push in blank where the hole in the chassis is.
As for clones I'd say they can be equally as good if not better in fact, if the person building it puts some effort in. The SLO is a beast but it isn't perfect. And as for the Deyoungs, if someone REALLY wanted to clone a Deyoung then they could and I'm fairly sure they have.
I love mine for various reasons, but I was also let down by a few things when I got it. Still, I'm over the negatives. And it does sound awesome.
There is a mod to lower the loop level in an SLO, as well as a factory schem for moving the FX loop after the master volume apparently. I really looked into either, since my amp has no loop! haha
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ahhh.. i stand corrected, i thought you'd built a clone, ditto the correction with the socket left out. Sounds like it was done at the workshop then, did you order it like that?
what where the negatives for you? and what parts of the design don't you like? other than the line level i can't complain about anything, and it's an HR50+, so when i finally get my hands on an SLO it's only going to get better. at least in my head
The Deyoungs are custom built for Mike, they don't make them for anyone else, i think most people use mercury or Onetics (he's using Onetics for everything that isn't an SLO now, mine is prob a mercury) in clones. I haven't heard of any deyoung clones yet.
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I did have a clone. Long story!
I did order it like that, yeah. It has no loop and no line out.
Negatives? Mostly minor things. I don't like that the mains earth is just soldered to the main star ground for the amp. That isn't considered good practice in the UK... I'm not even sure if its considered legal. I also prefer power switch and standby switching to be done with DPDT switches, and the Stanby switch to be the first thing after the PT secondary output and before the rectifier. I also modded mine to have Elevated AC heaters for the valves. It prolongs life in cathode followers, but really i did it so valves I put in V1 that I own which are sensitive to heater hum wouldn't complain! My biggest issue with mine, is that when it arrived the inside of the chassis was coated in a fine metallic dust. The explanation was that it was down to the IEC socket hole being filed out of the chassis. I cleaned it out myself, but I really disliked that and amp of this caliber could end up with metallic dust floating about inside it! Sort of lets down the build quality.
The IGPW transformers on the tubetown.de site are really nice. I have a feeling the OT is a clone. The deyounds at some point IIRC were available as upgrades for the Hot Rod 50/100. I also have a feeling the guy who makes them may have got hold of an SLO and actually cut the OT in half, and then just built himself a new one. Pretty extreme if he did! Having held an IGPW transformer in my hand and compared it to the Deyoung I can say the laminates and the size and the build on the outside are incredibly similar. Though I'd have to cut them both in half to compare them internally! haha.
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So mostly personal preference design things then? fair enough, not so much the sound.
Where did you get it from?? soldano direct? am honestly suprised it went out like that, the guy stands by his stuff big time, SLO or not. Was it Mike or Bill that let you know about the filing?
I might actually have to check my OT out then, it was from the time when that was still offered, i think he decided he wanted to make it an SLO exclusive thing. Wonder what the difference is between a Deyoung optioned HR and an SLO as the HR+ is supposed to basically be the SLO overdrive circuit without the Deyoungs.
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Yeah nothing so much to do with the sound. I love the sound!
It was via sounds great a while back. That in itself was a big deal, but everyone involved helped me through that process. I tried to avoid them but was told I couldn't. So i had to swallow some pride. It was Bill that suggested the cause of the dust.
Have a look. My avenger has Merc Mags OT and i think it has an Onetics PT. The HR+ has some slightly different component values in it, but not much. They are very similar.
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Sounds great are my main reason for not owning an SLO.. i really don't want to have to deal with them.. mainly because when i've tried to in the past i received zero info or help.
I got my HR for a great price on ebay located in the uk. SLO's are sparser on the ground and when they do come up in the uk or europe, not much cheaper than buying new.
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Checked it out, is a Mercury OT and PT, will have to ask what they felt the improvement was that the Onetics transformer added.
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Speaking of overdrives/boost and all that stuff, I have been very impressed with Egnater reviews and what I have played so far. Thought these looked interesting:
http://www.egnateramps.com/EgnaterProducts/Pedals/EgnaterPedals.html
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Dunno much about the internals and what constitutes a gain stage, but the SLO def has 5 preamp valves. Whether one of those does something other than being a gain stage, I have no idea
Fx loop.
V1 = 2 gain stages
V2 = 1 GS / 1 CF
V3 = 1GS / 1 CF
V4 = FX Loop
V5 = Phase Inverter
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Dunno much about the internals and what constitutes a gain stage, but the SLO def has 5 preamp valves. Whether one of those does something other than being a gain stage, I have no idea
Fx loop.
V1 = 2 gain stages
V2 = 1 GS / 1 CF
V3 = 1GS / 1 CF
V4 = FX Loop
V5 = Phase Inverter
close... but actually
V1 = Shared input for clean and overdrive / Second clean gain stage
V2 = Overdrive second stage / Overdrive third stage
V3 = Shared gain stage / Shared Cathode follower to lower signal level & drive FX send
V4 = Shared gain stage to boost signal level at FX return / Shared Cathode follower to drive tone stack
V5 = Phase Inverter
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having lots of gain stages and preamp tubes is way overrated
one could mod a 3 x 12ax7 marshall to a bogner or diezel sound without adding any tube or any sort of diode trick or rewiring the cathode follower
the classic SLO lead channel tone requires the extra triode, though (the crunch channel sounds pretty good without it anyway)
my bandmate built an mxr sized pedal that sounds just like a diezel VH4 with 2 preamp tubes laid inside it
best preamp I ever heard in person
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I've been playing Voodoo amps, by Trace Davis... The V-Rock would be right up your alley..... I get that Alice in Chains sound (one of my favorite bands) with the V-rock, and if you back off the gain, it is basically a modded 68 Plexi so it can do blues as well. This is a clip of my Voodoo V-Plex which is like a stock 68 Marshall....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exSdhMJOEvI
This was recorded directly off the speaker to give you an idea of how it records.........