Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: GuitarIv on September 26, 2012, 12:34:30 AM
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So, I've always been wondering what aspects make one cut through the mix. I know mids are important for those are the tonal spectrum which humans recognize the most, like human speech. Now I've been wondering what else helps to be present as a guitar player? Which woods, what does a pickup need to have, what cabs, amps and so on?
Discuss.
Cheers!
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A Strat and a Marshall definitely help.
Depends a lot if you play in a one or two guitar setup. On the latter it's important that both guys have a different tonal spectrum. My last band in Belgium, the other guy had an insanely trebly sound, but in the band this worked, I had more the mids fullness and he had the treble spike, so we were both there and contributed to a full band sound.
Common mistakes are too much bass and too much gain. Usually, if I have a sound that is hard to play at home, this works in the band context and flows much better playing in the group.
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A Strat and a Marshall definitely help.
Depends a lot if you play in a one or two guitar setup. On the latter it's important that both guys have a different tonal spectrum. My last band in Belgium, the other guy had an insanely trebly sound, but in the band this worked, I had more the mids fullness and he had the treble spike, so we were both there and contributed to a full band sound.
Common mistakes are too much bass and too much gain. Usually, if I have a sound that is hard to play at home, this works in the band context and flows much better playing in the group.
Very good post - I fully agree.
The bass player also has a lot of influence of how the guitar sound comes across in a band. If he uses too much midrange he will take a lot of the guitar's space away and make all guitar tones sound extremely brittle.
Ultimately all band members need to work together for the benefit of the band sound.
Cheers Stephan
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Yep, I'm with Hunter and Stephan here.
For a guitar player to cut, and at the same time not mess up the overall band sound, you need:
* less bass than you think
* less gain than you think
* a healthy amount of mids
* a healthy amount of treble
* restraint - only play what you need to play
For gear, there's a reason why Marshalls and Celestion Vintage 30s are a popular combination ;)
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It depends a lot on the type of music you play and the dynamics of the band (1 gtr? 2 gtrs? hard hitting drummer? etc). Marshall amps cut through effortlessly, especially for lead runs. In my band the other guitarist has a marshall and he boost his mids on top of that, so to ensure i complement and also can be heard I have had to tweak my setup and play to the strengths of my own gear. At the end of the day you should remember to always keep the bigger picture in focus (the band sound as a whole)- and as a guitarist this can be heard to do sometimes lol
I think things like V30s, tubescreamers and midheavy amps will help you cut through the mix without the guitar having as big a say in the matter. So say if you had a dark guitar with 'scooped' pups but played through a marshall, mesa cab with v30s and boosted with a maxon-then youd cut through just fine. So when using an amp that has more of a lowmid emphasis you may benefit from cranking the mids and using pickups that emphasize the mid and treble. In my experience the amp/speaker combination is what has the most say on how easily you will cut through.
Its all a balancing act, especially in metal-as I for one want a tone that cuts but also has good oomph and chunk to the low end-hence why I have found the MXR 10 band eq so essential. As i can tweak my tone to fit into the bands sound more accurately :-)
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I see... well that's interesting.
I'm currently using a Peavey Valveking 100 with a Laney GS 412LA (Tony Iommi Signature) 4x12 with Celestion 70 Eightys. The guitars are a Custom Strat with a Poplar Body and all Maple Neck, a Holydiver in the Bridge and Slowhands in the Middle and Neck; and a RG with a Basswood Body, all Maple Neck and soon a Set of Nailbombs (Ceramic Bridge) in it. I have a Tubescreamer in front of everything.
Is that setup good enough to cut through, or should I get an EQ/change something?
I'm playing in a metal context and can't afford any new gear right now, but I just wanna get some things straight for future investments :)
Now what makes Marshalls cut through? Why are V30s good too? And most important: can I get a new JCM 800 somehow? I didn't find any on the Marshall Page.
Sorry for all the questions, I'm just really curious :)
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The gear you have is fine, you may just need to set it up better if you're having problems. What settings are you using on the TS and the amp?
Marshalls and V30s both work well because the emphaise the upper mids - this is the frequency range that only guitars really use in a band so that's why they cut.
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I believe that any setup can cut through a mix if setup correctly-are you in a band? and if so are you the only guitarist? or are you hoping to join a band? i would assess your options once you are in a band context to be honest-otherwise you will just be guessing,etc. As i mentioned earlier the important thing is not to lose sight of the band sound as a whole.
Marshalls cut through because as far as I am aware they have an emphasis on the upper mids-they are designed with that voicing. Vintage 30s are good at cutting through because they emphasize the midrange.
marshall jcm http://www.gak.co.uk/en/marshall-jcm800-2203-vintage-series-100w-tube-head/4346?gclid=CLrU05G207ICFYXJtAod4WcAOg
hope that helps :-)
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I'm currently in a band, or better said in a project that is about to form. We are still writing all our stuff, but we are already a bassist and two guitarists and have a rehearsal space.
My other guitarist uses an ENGL Savage 60 with an ENGL Cab (don't know which one) and a LTD with BKP Warpigs. I myself quite disliked the Valveking until I found this little site: http://ultimate-guitar-valveking.wikispaces.com/Amp+Tricks+and+Suggestions and tried out the dummy jack mod and the fx loop patch cable mod. The Tubescreamer has it's Gain on 0, Level on 12 and Tone maxed out.
We haven't had the chance to rehearse yet, since my other guitarist is quite busy right now and we didn't have the time yet to transport his amp to our practice space.
Here's a vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkOkLvygiM0&feature=plcp
The room isn't finished yet, you can hear we are missing quite some isolation for the sound, but you get the idea :)
Thanks for all the input so far! :D
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How do you have the amp set, bass/mid/treble?
Listening to that clip you have the mids scooped like mad, and if you added a bass quitar and drums you'd disappear quite easily in a band mix.
This maybe not the kind of tone you're after, but this guy will cut in the mix better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNd4Ub4hu8c
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I concur with the above posts.
Less bass and less gain help.
What might sound great on it's own, often doesn't work that well in the band context.
V30s have a pronounced presence peak around 1-3 kHz, which is the range in which the ear is most sensitive, hence they tend to cut through a mix, although you should also bear in mind that this is the frequency range where most of the important vocal information is.
I personally don't V30s at all and think that they sound harsh and are fatiguing to listen to.
It is worth pointing out that they are popular with players who use modern, high gain sounds, which isn't really my bag.
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That's funny, because if I remember right, I had Treble on 10, Mids on 14 and Bass on 12. I tend not to scoop my mids anyway, but as said maybe it's the rooms acoustic properties, the clip isn't really high quality. Right now the highs get too piercing anyway, I hope that will change once the isolation materials arrive.
Oh and yeah, the gain was set quite high. I guess it will take a lot of experimenting once the rehearsing starts ^^
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Less pre-amp gain, more volume for the win ;)
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Less pre-amp gain, more volume for the win ;)
Thisthisthis!
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Thanks! I'm really loving this forum, so much helpful and experienced people round here :)
Btw, I've been thinking Painkillers for the Jackson in the Clip, thoughts?
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I second all of the above-get together with your fellow guitarist and find out where you complement each other with your setups. And yes with less gain you will actually get a heavier chunkier tone, especially at gigging volumes.
I havent got experience with the painkiller bridge only the neck. I have it installed in a mahogany body-maple neck bolt on. I believe that jackson is alder body -maple neck bolt on. I imagine it would accentuate the treble end, so depends if thats what you are after.
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Thank you all! :D
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ok this is just my take on the subject,
small amps are perfect for cutting through and also sitting in the mix, I like using a Fender Champion 600 or basically a small class A valve amp with a small speaker, also mic it off axis and ideally use a ribbon mic or sm57 if you can't get one. It will never loose its place in the mix and from my experience will almost always sound better than a 4x12 cab which is great live but not in a recording studio. The orange PPC112 cab is great for recording as well
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Live I always use the absolute minimum bass that I need for a full sound. When recording, I often cut this back even further, depending on the circumstances.
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One thing I have always noticed when watching live gigs, or playing them myself, the less distortion one has, the better you can hear everything. Most Funk or Classic Rock bands I saw had a very transparent sound, but it also always depends on the location and the sound technician the house provides I guess. I have also noticed that running the amp through the Sound System of the venue oddly adds further distortion to the sound, so I guess that justifies the argument with using less gain and bass. I played a big gig with my ex Pop Rock band once, only using a Tubescreamer for Overdrive through the clean channel of a Marshall, and I wasn't satisfied with the tone I heard on stage, because it had too little gain for my taste. Then I saw the Video a friend of mine did and the sound was perfectly fine, the TS had more gain through the Sound System then I heard on stage. Explanations?
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When stuff is really LOUD, its hard to make too many audio judgements when you are standing on stage close to the speakers. The different frequencies in the sound roll off differently as you move away from the stage to the audience. Also the stage monitors (if present) can sound different to the speakers pointing into the audience.
A good sound is a rare and amazing thing. Often I set up the mix myself from the stage. This is a bad thing to do for sure.. but certainly its better than being $%&#ed over by a bad sound guy, of which there are many.
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True that. Out of 20 Gigs, I played maybe 2 where the sound guy knew what he was doing and managed to set up a good overall sound.
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Btw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNaknTgIbIg
Opeth. I don't know how they manage to get such a good livesound...
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recalling this thread i thought i would experiment this weekend at a gig. BG52 set up for the very merest crunch - cut right through the mix with minimal volume. even less gain than i normally use and it worked out amazingly.
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Nice! What equipment did you exactly use? :)
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Stratele (with skull and cross bones graphic, you can search for it on here) with Irish Tour neck, and BG52 bridge
Korg Pitchblack
modded DOD 250
Tech 21 Sansamp British
Direct into desk with reverb added there.
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I played a big gig with my ex Pop Rock band once, only using a Tubescreamer for Overdrive through the clean channel of a Marshall, and I wasn't satisfied with the tone I heard on stage, because it had too little gain for my taste.
This is a big mistake I think most guitarists have been guilty of at some stage; ie adjusting their amp so it sounds good to them on stage.
Unfortunately it's FOH that really matters, and the two aren't always compatible.
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I love the way clean-ish guitars cut through the mix like that, just shows every mistake of the playing (for me it's a lot!)
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Well I guess by now it's clear: less gain is more gain. :P
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I can only add that sometimes it is important to think as a band and not as individuals. So often everybody adjusts everything on their equipment to their personal likings and so feel they hear themselves. Especially if you add a keyboard in the mix this won't work - you need to make adjustments as a band and mix everything properly with clear roles.
If you know the band HIM, a lot of their keyboards are really quite trebly and high, so they don't conflict with the guitar sounds. I noticed this most when hearing their sound check before a concert once years ago (it was a festival; I would never willingly visit a HIM-only concert). You don't necessarily notice this in their recordings.
A good example is here, but it's really all over many of their songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P-gzn2LY5E&feature=BFa&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CuU9e6pcLJYq981Fcp4rXz
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My coverband has a hornsection and keyboardplayer (stacked stuff, you know those guys, lots of sounds, lots of mids, high, center and low). The perfect tool to cut trough is a telecaster. I use the toneknob to make it round or to bite if neccessary. My experience is that a telecaster fits a lot of amps very well.
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There were quite a lot of gigs were I noticed that guitarists with Telecasters cut through pretty well, any explanations for that?
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There were quite a lot of gigs were I noticed that guitarists with Telecasters cut through pretty well, any explanations for that?
Telecasters (the bridge pickups, especially) have lots and lots of bite naturally. Lots of treble and upper mids.
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There were quite a lot of gigs were I noticed that guitarists with Telecasters cut through pretty well, any explanations for that?
Telecasters (the bridge pickups, especially) have lots and lots of bite naturally. Lots of treble and upper mids.
+1
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There were quite a lot of gigs were I noticed that guitarists with Telecasters cut through pretty well, any explanations for that?
Telecasters (the bridge pickups, especially) have lots and lots of bite naturally. Lots of treble and upper mids.
+1
I remember the first recording I did with my (old) band. Played on its own the Tele was incredibly trebly - slice your head off trebly.
When mixed with the rest of the band it sound really really great - almost good enough to eat.
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Yeah there are some guitars, and amps for that matter, that sound great by themselves, but when playing in a band get drowned out, and some that sound harsh by themselves but great in a mix. Just depends on if you play on your own or in a band.
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I play mainly on my own mostly. It sounds incredibly bad. Need a loud band to drown me out.
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The trick with a tele is to use the tonekob effectively. Mine can sound quite full and ballsy - toneknob half back - on the drivechannel on my Orange Rockerverb.
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I used a Tele with alnico EMGs in my last cover band, into a Marshall JVM. The other guitar player used a LP Standard into a Marshall Vintage Modern (Yuchi!) and he used to tell me to turn the treble down all the time but he was a newbie and he could only hear me through the monitor his side as we were loud as ......! I used to get the sound engineer to muffle me a lot in that monitor. We sounded great together out front though.
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Well reading all this, I'm pretty happy I'm building myself a Warmoth Tele :D