Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: ericsabbath on September 28, 2012, 03:39:41 AM
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hey, guys
got a vhII covered set for the cheaps from a friend a couple weeks ago
installed them in my camo jap hurricane les paul copy
they sounded pretty much like the official clip (more than any other bkp I had)
bridge pickup is pretty focused, balanced and has a drier character than my custom riff raff and the black dog
kind of a Jon Schaffer dry and tight crunchy tone with my modded Marshall and my Zambelli Hyperdrive amp
neck pickup was good, but didn't impress me
didn't try it with the band, so I can't tell much more, but I really like what I heard
thing is: I have a mule set laying here, and I'm gonna try them in this same guitar for a true comparison (this hurricane used to be my main guitar before I bought my '73 custom, so I had over 18 pickups in this one)
the mules measured 8.68k (quite high), 7.3k
the vhII measured 9.04k, 8.17k
when I was trying to fit short legged mules in the rings, one spring just flew away :lol:
then I had a brilliant insight!
the vhII neck has the exact same spec as the bridge version of the no longer made alnico 5 mule
I remember gwem and Feline had great impressions with the A5 mule, so I had to try the neck vhII in the bridge
it's too late, so I couldn't play loud more than a couple minutes, and only played at medium low volumes for a while, but I can already tell this thing sounds amazing in the bridge!
a lot like my custom riff raff, but warmer and more balanced
I definitely like it better than the actual vhII bridge version, and better than in the neck spot
quite different from the neck cold sweat in the bridge, which is more upper mid heavy and a little more articulate
I love how it sounds really open, like the riff raff, but warm like the black dog
tomorrow I'm gonna try the regular A4 mules and see what changes :D
by monday I might install a bridge warpig I have here
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I'd LOVE to know the results of a comparison between the A4 mule and the neck VHii.
Was thinking of selling it and getting a new neck PU. Great tone warm tone but just not totally what i wanted in the Neck PU. I also have the VHII bridge and like it in my basswood guitar so ill be definetely trying this lol :)
Edit : sound clips would be even more awesome :P
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Eric,
That is very interesting. It seems that we are finding more and more neck pickups suited for the bridge position.
Cheers Stephan
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Great review and interesting. I have AIV Mules, why BKP doesn't make the AV-version (anymore)?
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Very cool, good to know!
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The VH2 works great in the bridge in a Fender-type guitar I think. I never tried one in an LP, but from the people who have, it seems more specialist in that situation.
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Interesting thread.
This whole neck-pickup-in-bridge-position thing is very intriguing, but it gives so many extra possibilities it's starting to boggle my mind a little....
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Don't you just hate boggled minds?
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Only when it's my own mind that's boggled.
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I'd be interested to hear the difference between a bridge AIV Mule and a neck VHII in the bridge.
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hey, guys
didn't have time to install the mules yet (and still gotta find the flying spring :lol:)
going out to buy some dog food, and might install them later today
still impressed with how much more balanced the neck VHII sounds in the bridge than in the neck spot
definitely sounds like a bridge pickup
the bridge version was more nailbombish (strong lows, edgy top, faster picking response), which is kinda expected, as the bobbins should get more asymmetrical with the higher DC (just like the nailbomb)
the neck version sounds much more organic, a lot like the riff raff, maybe a little less bright than both RR and bridge VHII
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hey, guys
didn't have time to install the mules yet (and still gotta find the flying spring :lol:)
going out to buy some dog food, and might install them later today
still impressed with how much more balanced the neck VHII sounds in the bridge than in the neck spot
definitely sounds like a bridge pickup
the bridge version was more nailbombish (strong lows, edgy top, faster picking response), which is kinda expected, as the bobbins should get more asymmetrical with the higher DC (just like the nailbomb)
the neck version sounds much more organic, a lot like the riff raff, maybe a little less bright than both RR and bridge VHII
From this description it sort of sounds like an underwound Holy Diver... Is that something that you'd agree with or am I imagining it all wrong?
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hey, guys
didn't have time to install the mules yet (and still gotta find the flying spring :lol:)
going out to buy some dog food, and might install them later today
still impressed with how much more balanced the neck VHII sounds in the bridge than in the neck spot
definitely sounds like a bridge pickup
the bridge version was more nailbombish (strong lows, edgy top, faster picking response), which is kinda expected, as the bobbins should get more asymmetrical with the higher DC (just like the nailbomb)
the neck version sounds much more organic, a lot like the riff raff, maybe a little less bright than both RR and bridge VHII
From this description it sort of sounds like an underwound Holy Diver... Is that something that you'd agree with or am I imagining it all wrong?
nah, nothing like the holy diver
completely different specs and voicing
technically, as far as I understand:
bridge vhii = nailbomb with thicker wire (not underwound)
black dog = holy diver with thicker wire (also not underwound)
of course, by "equal", I mean in specs
not sure if Tim uses some sort of voicing adjustment in the wiring process
and lower dc doesn't mean underwinding
both vhii and nailbomb are heavily overwound pickups, and Tim manages to retain the high end by offsetting the coils, and that's supposedly what gives them the more articulate top and punchier low end , instead of getting middy and bloated
they have the same long alnico 5 magnet, enamel wire, different gauges (42 awg for the vhii, 43 awg for the nailbomb)
the others have short alnico 5 magnets, polysol wire, also different gauges (42.5 awg for the black dog, 44 awg for the holy diver), so they aren't much overwound, although they have close dc readings to the vhii and holy diver, respectively
the neck vhii has a little more vintage correct spec, and is more paf sounding, as it's not heavily overwound
I'll guess it's not as asymetrical as the bridge model, cause it sounds more balanced in the mids instead of being bass/treble focused
quite warm response compared to the bridge pickup
I'll try to get a reading from each bobbin
can't make a precise comparison with the riff raff cause my RR has a custom 4 mm thick magnet and it's also in a different sounding les paul
the difference between a stock riff raff and a neck vhii would be the magnet length and maybe the level of asymmetry
an alnico 5 mule should be pretty much like this
again, absolutely nothing lile the holy diver
edit:
playing it louder today, I can definitely relate it with the riff raff
this guitar sounds warmer than my les paul custom, so maybe that's why it sounds a little less spanky than the riff raff
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What other BKP is the neck VHII in bridge position is closest to it?
Or what 2 BKP does it sit in between?
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between the riff raff and the mule, definitely, leaning towards the riff raff side
I assumed it's equivalent to an alnico 5 mule, but only Tim can confirm that
installed the mules, but it was midnight, so I couldn't play loud
damn... why didn't I try it before?
I thought it was lower output, but it has just the right amount of juice
warmer, softer and a bit middier than the neck vhii, but just as hot
gonna try it with the band later today!
I think I can get why Tim doesn't want alnico 5 mules
maybe it isn't different enough from the riff raff to have another model confusing customers heads
it definitely has a different feel from the A4 mule, which is definitely more "1959" sounding (compared to the neck vhii)
dammit
now I'm wondering how a nailbomb would sound with alnico 4 :lol:
(overwound abraxas?)
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vhII coil readings (didn't test which coil is which, so I'm calling them by the wire colour):
bridge "red" coil 4.2k
bridge "black" coil 4.84
neck "red" coil 3.68k
neck "black" coil 4.49k
can't test the mules asymmetry as they are 2 conductor/braided
might test the riff raff and black dog, though
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vhII coil readings (didn't test which coil is which, so I'm calling them by the wire colour):
bridge "red" coil 4.2k
bridge "black" coil 4.84
neck "red" coil 3.68k
neck "black" coil 4.49k
Interesting that there's still quite a big "stagger" on the neck pickup as well as the bridge.
I'd like to see how the Riff Raff compares - more symmetrical, I expect?
Maybe your neck Cold Sweat, too.
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This thread makes me want to try a VHII neck in the bridge of my LP clone and I already have a list of pickups I want to try out... Oh bugger :D
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vhII coil readings (didn't test which coil is which, so I'm calling them by the wire colour):
bridge "red" coil 4.2k
bridge "black" coil 4.84
neck "red" coil 3.68k
neck "black" coil 4.49k
Interesting that there's still quite a big "stagger" on the neck pickup as well as the bridge.
I'd like to see how the Riff Raff compares - more symmetrical, I expect?
Maybe your neck Cold Sweat, too.
tim said the riff raff and the cold sweat are more symmetrical
I'll post the the riff raff and black dog readings today
they are wired, so the readings may be a little messed up
my friend who sold me the vhii's borrowed the neck cold sweat for a couple weeks, but he found it too trebly in the bridge (well, for his ears, the 36th dimarzio paf was too bassy, bridge cold sweat was too trebly, vhII was too bassy, black dog was too muffled) :lol:
he's going back to the stock prs pickups (it's a singlecut)
I'll read the coils when he gives it back
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Not to necro a thread but i just tried the VHII neck in the bridge and it definitely sounds nice lol. Was way more organic and was smoother. Bass was deeper and less firm and even though wasn't the greatest for how i play which is fast and hard chording in the lower register i can totally see how people might think of this as a good bridge pickup as well.
I also one upped him and tried the VHII bridge in the neck! Which also sounds nice in the sense of having a firmer low end and more aggressive upper end. Was less organic as well but to me is very fun to solo with.
Anyways 2 cents /shrug
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vhII coil readings (didn't test which coil is which, so I'm calling them by the wire colour):
bridge "red" coil 4.2k
bridge "black" coil 4.84
neck "red" coil 3.68k
neck "black" coil 4.49k
Thanks very much Eric, that is very helpful.
I got a creme colored VHII neck on the bench which was in the neck spot of my Single Cut. Got to try it in the bridge though.
Whtat do you think would be a good match for it in the neck - Riff Raff, Mule?
Cheers Stephan
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I got a creme colored VHII neck on the bench which was in the neck spot of my Single Cut. Got to try it in the bridge though.
What do you think would be a good match for it in the neck - Riff Raff, Mule?
It's an interesting idea, isn't it? :)
I was thinking of getting a VHII set for my Mira X.... but if they're a bit too powerful I might then switch the neck VHII to the bridge position and get a Mule neck. I was always intrigued by the AV Mule, so the VHII neck might be a good alternative.
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I thought I'd pass along some info. I exchanged a few emails with Tim and he mentioned that the neck vhii and the a5 mule are not the same. The level of asymmetry is different between the coils of these two pickups, which results in different midrange and output.
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Yesterday I tried the VHII neck in the bridge spot of my favorite Les Paul. While I liked its tone for its slightly improved clarity over the one that was in there before (it was no BKP), I found the tone a bit thin in that particular guitar, and I liked the middle position better with the previous pickup. But I definitely want a warmer tone for this guitar - Mules or Black Dogs maybe?
Cheers Stephan
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If you consider the BD, then the Abraxas should have a shout.
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If you consider the BD, then the Abraxas should have a shout.
I know the Abraxas bridge and it is a fine pickup indeed but I don't want as much output for this guitar.
Cheers Stephan
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Based upon your posts, I think you know the range good enough to know the difference between Mules and Black Dogs. I don't have experience with the BD. I have Mules and they are very balanced, deep and complex sounding PAF's. I think the bridge, which has some edge but is round enough, in general is a bit underestimated. You can play nearly anything with it.
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I thought I'd pass along some info. I exchanged a few emails with Tim and he mentioned that the neck vhii and the a5 mule are not the same. The level of asymmetry is different between the coils of these two pickups, which results in different midrange and output.
thanks for the info, brother
I imagined that, but I couldn't measure the mules, as they have the vintage style braided wiring
is the mule more or less asymmetrical?
oh
by the way, my band Colidium is finishing a new ep, all recorded with bkps, mostly a miracle man, mules and the riff raff
if you liked the old raw recorded ep, you'll love the new one :D
Yesterday I tried the VHII neck in the bridge spot of my favorite Les Paul. While I liked its tone for its slightly improved clarity over the one that was in there before (it was no BKP), I found the tone a bit thin in that particular guitar, and I liked the middle position better with the previous pickup. But I definitely want a warmer tone for this guitar - Mules or Black Dogs maybe?
Cheers Stephan
I wouldn't say the mule is any thicker sounding than the vhii in the bridge
it's a little more compressed and the notes blend together a bit in a nice organic way
it might be warmer and just a little middier, but not thicker
maybe the dog might work
the bridge vhII is also pretty thick, but not warm
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thanks for the info, brother
I imagined that, but I couldn't measure the mules, as they have the vintage style braided wiring
is the mule more or less asymmetrical?
Not sure, but Tim did mention that the VHII coil offset is very extreme. I assume the Mule is the more symmetrical of the two. To be honest, after giving me such a straight answer I really didn't want to bug the man about the details of a pickup he doesn't even offer anymore :oops: He's probably busy enough as is, without me getting all nosy about a few one-offs.
oh
by the way, my band Colidium is finishing a new ep, all recorded with bkps, mostly a miracle man, mules and the riff raff
if you liked the old raw recorded ep, you'll love the new one :D
Thanks for the tip! I'm looking forward to it! 8) :drink:
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Based upon your posts, I think you know the range good enough to know the difference between Mules and Black Dogs.
Well - only going by description as I did not yet have a chance to play either.
I will try the VHII neck in the neck spot of this guitar together with the bridge pickup I liked most in that guitar so far - that was a Wolfetone Marshallhead and see how that works. If the VHII neck works in the neck spot I may leave the guitar as is or change the bridge to a VHII bridge. If it does not work to my liking I put the previous set back for now in even if they are not BKPs. I can always go to Black Dogs later.
Cheers Stephan
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Yesterday I tried the VHII neck in the bridge spot of my favorite Les Paul. While I liked its tone for its slightly improved clarity over the one that was in there before (it was no BKP), I found the tone a bit thin in that particular guitar, and I liked the middle position better with the previous pickup. But I definitely want a warmer tone for this guitar - Mules or Black Dogs maybe?
Cheers Stephan
Did you try the neck in the bridge position both ways around? With them being so assymetrical this should make a large difference (lot more than with symetrical PUs). If the sound was too thin it might have just been the fatter coil being the one closer to the bridge.
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I only tried it with the slug coil inside (i.e. towards the neck) and the screw coil outside. But you are right, if the screw coil is the one with more turns that could explain the thinner tone I was hearing. The wire is long enough so that would be easy to try. I will report on the results when I get around to try this.
Thanks for the tip,
Stephan
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Turned it around as suggested. I hear a difference but it's not as pronounced as I expected - but that can also be due to the fact that I turned the mounting ring as well so that the pickup height may not be exactly the same. It sounds a bit more aggressive with the screw coils facing the neck but it's not a big difference.
Generally the pickup has a deep bass, i.e. the bass it has extends to a low frequency but it is still tight. The low mids are not too prominent which helps to retain clarity. The same applies for the center and high mids. On the top end the pickup is quite bright and has a lot of harmonic overtones. I really like the pickup for chording but I wish it had a bit more weight to the single notes, in particular on the upper scale of the fretboard.
So next step will be to try the VHII in the neck position and see how it works there.
Cheers Stephan
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vhII coil readings (didn't test which coil is which, so I'm calling them by the wire colour):
bridge "red" coil 4.2k
bridge "black" coil 4.84
neck "red" coil 3.68k
neck "black" coil 4.49k
To quote from the BKP FAQ:
"What is the Bare Knuckle Four conductor colour code?
Answer: Black =start of screw coil
White = finish of screw coil
Red = start of slug coil
Green = finish of slug coil"
Which means that in this model for both positions the screw coil is the hotter one, which I can imagine provides for a more balanced operation for the various coil splits.
Cheers Stephan
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nice to know this
almost 7 years and I'm still learning a lot about pickups in this forum
thanks, stephan :D
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So next step will be to try the VHII in the neck position and see how it works there.
I guess I commented on the VHII in the neck spot in a different thread but to put it into the context: it has quite high output in the neck position. The tone is definitely in the vintage camp but hotter so "vintage hot" is an appropriate description. While it certainly has sufficient midrange it has a certain bite to it which lends itself well to aggressive blues and rock playing. If you want creamier tones from it you will have to use the tone pot or - if you have it in a Les Paul - play out of the middle position, turn down volume of the bridge pickup and use the increased load to your advantage. What I like best about this pickup is the low end. It stays clear and focused even under high gain. At the same time it will not sound thin in the upper registers.
I played it together with a Wolfetone Marshallhead in the bridge position, and I like this combination very much. The Wolfetone Marshallhead neck is a bit clearer on the treble strings but way muddy on the bass strings IMHO. In that regard the VHII neck is a clear winner.
I am now searching for a BKP bridge pickup as a companion to the VHII neck in that Les Paul. Currently I have the A-Bomb there which is a good fit but a bit too powerful. Got something coming though but that is stuff for another thread.
Cheers Stephan