Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: itamar101 on October 11, 2012, 09:21:15 PM
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Heyyooo,
Looking for somehelp today.
Recently I've noticed that my Gibson Les Paul doesn't seem to have as much sustain as it used to...In fact it really doesn't have a lot. The notes hold, but not for long enough. Maybe for 4-6 seconds (I'm very lucky if I get 6, by the way these aren't accurate - I haven't timed them. They're just estimations) with medium-high distortion (using the gain channel on my Orange TH30 with only a cable inbetween the guitar and the amp). Vibrato doesn't seem to help much.
I have my pickups rather faraway from the strings when I press down the 22nd fret and medium-low action. High enough to play slide without buzz when amplified and I dont really have much fret buzz anyway.
My guitar has gonna through multiple changes with techs and I think it may have had a bad effect on the sustain. I'll try to set it up slightly differently later but a few tips would be nice.
Also, my toggle switch has been messed up for a while now and, as far as I can tell, the middle position wont play both pickup. It only plays the neck pickup... The transition between the neck and middle positionsis also to smooth and "flimsy". There's almost no click. I'm thinking that this also may have had an effect on the sustain (even in the bridge position - thats where the problem started - long story...) and my tone seems a bit thinner and weak now... could be psychological.... but I don't know.
Anway, any tips are welcome :)
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How's it doing unplugged? can be hard to tell but it's usually a good indicator.
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How's it doing unplugged? can be hard to tell but it's usually a good indicator.
It's one of the most resonant I've played unplugged. The sustain still isn't amazing but it last for a similar amount of time... probably around 4-6 secs also (before it completely dies down) and surely when playing through a loud amp with high gain and mid-high output pickups thesustain should be better...
The guitar is rather bright unplugged but it's got strong low mids. Again, It's got a thin finish and it's very resonant.
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Any advice?
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Sounds like you need the switch replaced anyway and checking some of the solder joints couldn't hurt.
have you tried any other amps? YMMV but I've not found guitar electrics to have a huge effect on sustain.(unless there is something drastically wrong with them)
The most obvious thing I've seen ruin sustain is old or dirty strings but I'm guessing you tried changing strings first.
IIRC you'll never have more sustain through an amp than your guitar has acoustically (short of feedback tomfoolery), the amp will obviously make it louder and easier to hear and the volume will be more compressed if you use distortion making it seem like it's sustaining longer.
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It's one of the most resonant I've played unplugged. The sustain still isn't amazing but it last for a similar amount of time... probably around 4-6 secs......The guitar is rather bright unplugged but it's got strong low mids. Again, It's got a thin finish and it's very resonant.
6 seconds of sustain and it's very resonant? It doesn't sound it to me, 6 seconds is nothing. As a comparison, one of my guitars will sustain for over a minute. Yes, seriously.
If it's the same unplugged as amplified, then it's nothing to do with the electrics. The obvious places to check are the bridge saddles and the nut slots, to make sure the strings are vibrating freely and not being choked by something. Also check the neck relief and that the strings aren't rattling on the frets.
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It's one of the most resonant I've played unplugged. The sustain still isn't amazing but it last for a similar amount of time... probably around 4-6 secs......The guitar is rather bright unplugged but it's got strong low mids. Again, It's got a thin finish and it's very resonant.
6 seconds of sustain and it's very resonant? It doesn't sound it to me, 6 seconds is nothing. As a comparison, one of my guitars will sustain for over a minute. Yes, seriously.
If it's the same unplugged as amplified, then it's nothing to do with the electrics. The obvious places to check are the bridge saddles and the nut slots, to make sure the strings are vibrating freely and not being choked by something. Also check the neck relief and that the strings aren't rattling on the frets.
By resonant i didn't mean that :D
I meant that you can really feel it vibrating when you play, much more that most guitars I've come across. That's different to sustait. For example, a classical guitar is extremely resonant but it doesn't have much sustain.
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It's one of the most resonant I've played unplugged. The sustain still isn't amazing but it last for a similar amount of time... probably around 4-6 secs......The guitar is rather bright unplugged but it's got strong low mids. Again, It's got a thin finish and it's very resonant.
6 seconds of sustain and it's very resonant? It doesn't sound it to me, 6 seconds is nothing. As a comparison, one of my guitars will sustain for over a minute. Yes, seriously.
If it's the same unplugged as amplified, then it's nothing to do with the electrics. The obvious places to check are the bridge saddles and the nut slots, to make sure the strings are vibrating freely and not being choked by something. Also check the neck relief and that the strings aren't rattling on the frets.
Yep, definately gonna check neck relief and I might raise the action up a notch... I don't see anything wrong with the nut though.
On a different note, today I used my amp on rather low volume and I cranked the gain up into the last gain stage and I got far more sustain. At least 12 seconds... I feel like i could.d get much more with a good set up though...
also...
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ONE MINUTE!!! What!?
Is that without any help from feedback or are you cheating :lol:
But dammit... what guitar is that? Surely it's not one of your double-cuts...
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By resonant i didn't mean that :D
I meant that you can really feel it vibrating when you play, much more that most guitars I've come across. That's different to sustain. For example, a classical guitar is extremely resonant but it doesn't have much sustain.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. I've found that very light, resonant, acoustically loud electric guitars feel "alive" in your hands but that doesn't always translate into good sustain.
Whereas guitars which feel quite "dead" acoustically can turn out to have really good sustain when amplified - often the case with hefty guitars like Les Pauls!
I sometimes think the resonance of the body dissipates the energy from the vibrating strings by sort of soaking it up, hence less sustain. That probably doesn't make much sense scientifically....
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I do a number of things to try to make Les pauls and suchlike really sing out
These are MY favourite things that I BELIEVE help - you don't have to agree
A lot of what PRS calls his rules of tone I concur with
these are all acoustic factors:
Fresh strings
Decent tuners that feel rock solid - I do like Sperzel but gotoh, grover, scahller or TonePro Kluson are all good
EArvana compensated tuning nut (I know I'm like a broken record over this - but it makes a lot of difference)
Well cut nut slots and well cut saddles grooves smooth with no burrs, with the right angle to let the string sit well
Aluminium tailpiece - big fan of these! Gotoh are the best value.
Tonepro locking tailpiece studs - these clamp the tailpiece rigid - and with an aluminium tailpiece I think it's a good way to go.
A good fret job - nice clean crisply shaped fret-tops
I also like big heavy frets - makes for clean contact without fingertips needing to touch against the board
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A good fret job - nice clean crisply shaped fret-tops
I also like big heavy frets - makes for clean contact without fingertips needing to touch against the board
Another aspect of that is how well the frets are seated in the board, isn't it? Am I right in thinking you superglue your frets?
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Pickups will affect things.. It's a bit of a hack, but something compressed (like a warpig) will increase sustain.
Generally I prefer Jonathan's tips though.
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ONE MINUTE!!! What!?
Is that without any help from feedback or are you cheating :lol:
But dammit... what guitar is that? Surely it's not one of your double-cuts...
I can rest my PS SC245 with the neck free (on a table, for example) and pluck the low E string and it can be heard vibrating for about minute - the pernambuco neck is what does it I think. One of my doublecuts with a mahogany neck will do about 40 seconds.
Do the same check on your guitar and see what you get.
If you're talking about how long a fretted note that's been bent up will sustain, then that's a different thing. A lot there will depend on your fretting technique and the frets themselves.
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I can rest my PS SC245 with the neck free (on a table, for example) and pluck the low E string and it can be heard vibrating for about minute - the pernambuco neck is what does it I think. One of my doublecuts with a mahogany neck will do about 40 seconds.
You know I'm just itching to get all my guitars out and grab the stopwatch now..... what a geek I am. :roll: :lol:
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It's never occurred to me to measure/time the sustain of a guitar or to even think about it. If I want a note to sustain for a long time I rely on the feedback of my amp.
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I know it's ludicrous, but I sit around playing electric guitars unplugged more often than not, so I'm very aware of how they resonate, sustain and sound acoustically.
In guitar shops I prefer not to plug in, because I can assess the guitar better that way. Saves embarrassment too.....
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Not ludicrous at all, best way to trial an electric IMO. If it sounds good acoustically then it's pretty much going to sound good amplified. I've bought electrics without plugging them in based on a good hard strum on open strings. I think if there's an aspect of the sound you don't like once you plug it in then that'll be more to do with the electrionics and PU's.
Building a house on solid foundations and all that.
course if you're playing ultra high gain amps with active pickups, i feel the acoustic properties of any guitar become less important.
Bought my kotzen tele this way. held it good and tight to my ribcage, good solid hard strum, the body and strings where still going a minute later.
I'm in the school of thinking where if the resonance is good, then the sustain should be good, It hasn't let me down yet in terms of testing guitars out. if it's not then there's something inhibiting long term string vibration. maybe the nut, maybe the saddles, maybe the coupling of the body to the bridge, maybe the tuners in a non locking trem guitar.
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I know it's ludicrous, but I sit around playing electric guitars unplugged more often than not, so I'm very aware of how they resonate, sustain and sound acoustically.
In guitar shops I prefer not to plug in, because I can assess the guitar better that way. Saves embarrassment too.....
I hardly ever plug in whilst in a guitar shop. The last time I did I nearly walked out with a LP, sounded stunning though the Bogner rig in the amp room they had. I don't own a Bogner or amp room so convinced myself that it wouldn't sound anything like that at home.
The fact I can't play that well also now makes me only play unplugged in store - that and that you can hear much more of a difference (IMO) in guitars when played unplugged.
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But they're ELECTRIC gutars, designed to be played through an amp. Playing acoustically to check out the basic properties is a good idea, but I also plug it in and check it too...
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I know it's ludicrous, but I sit around playing electric guitars unplugged more often than not, so I'm very aware of how they resonate, sustain and sound acoustically.
Likewise. Don't even have an amp at home at the moment (it's over at a mates). Ridiculous really when you consider all the pedals I have ;)
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But they're ELECTRIC gutars, designed to be played through an amp. Playing acoustically to check out the basic properties is a good idea, but I also plug it in and check it too...
Can't disagree with you there Dave!
Imagine getting an ultra exclusive PRS and just playing it unplugged. :lol:
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But they're ELECTRIC gutars, designed to be played through an amp. Playing acoustically to check out the basic properties is a good idea, but I also plug it in and check it too...
Each to their own, the guitars acoustics tells me most of what i need to know really. not all amps have a play room either, so if i'm going to plug in it'll be thru something small. about the only time i do that is when i'm trying out effects though.
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Yeah - good point. I couldn't imagine trying out a pedal without plugging it in first. I do think that a nice firm rotating action on the pots is a good sign, as well as a rugged switch and solid in/out jacks.
I'm now thinking that perhaps I don't really need to plug pedals in either. :P
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FWIW- Pickups too high will dampen the string vibration because of the pull of the magnetic field.
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Yeah - good point. I couldn't imagine trying out a pedal without plugging it in first. I do think that a nice firm rotating action on the pots is a good sign, as well as a rugged switch and solid in/out jacks.
I'm now thinking that perhaps I don't really need to plug pedals in either. :P
not always believe it or not... :|
japanese stuff tended to be made for a bunch of brands with different enclosures, so, same guts, varying degrees of enclosure quality. i have a frontline distortion, plastic stomper. Sucky bypass, sounds awesome, looks like itll fall apart if you eye it too much. Goes for 25 quid on the bay, but contains the same guts as Grant and Memphis pedals (sometimes locobox) which can go for considerably more.
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i was just thinking, which is dangerous, about sustain and resonance...
I imagine that maximum sustain might depend on the rigidity of the material making a guitar and stopping energy transfer from the string into the body of the instrument but that in the end it all comes down to whatever pleasing compromise anyone can come up with. or something.
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Right track i think though, really means that you have to look at all point where vibration or energy is transferred to the body and all point where that contact may be inhibited or broken. I guess you're looking at the bridge assembly, neck join and nut. Mebbe the tuner posts as well (thinking the sleeves being the right size).
How old is the guitar? does it use one of those tone pro's style bridges ones or one of the one where bits fall off when you change strings? I dunno, never had to change strings on a trad style LP bridge. I heard things spring off sometimes.
How about the wrapping the under and over on the bridge to decrease the break angle ala bonamassa
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Yeah - good point. I couldn't imagine trying out a pedal without plugging it in first. I do think that a nice firm rotating action on the pots is a good sign, as well as a rugged switch and solid in/out jacks.
I'm now thinking that perhaps I don't really need to plug pedals in either. :P
not always believe it or not... :|
japanese stuff tended to be made for a bunch of brands with different enclosures, so, same guts, varying degrees of enclosure quality. i have a frontline distortion, plastic stomper. Sucky bypass, sounds awesome, looks like itll fall apart if you eye it too much. Goes for 25 quid on the bay, but contains the same guts as Grant and Memphis pedals (sometimes locobox) which can go for considerably more.
Good point. I know some of the Danelectro stuff is held in pretty high regard on the tone/cost factor. I think the cool cat drive has a similar circuit to the OCD but at a quarter(ish) of the cost.
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I can rest my PS SC245 with the neck free (on a table, for example) and pluck the low E string and it can be heard vibrating for about minute - the pernambuco neck is what does it I think. One of my doublecuts with a mahogany neck will do about 40 seconds.
You know I'm just itching to get all my guitars out and grab the stopwatch now..... what a geek I am. :roll: :lol:
Yup, that's my Saturday evening in taken care of!
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I know it's ludicrous, but I sit around playing electric guitars unplugged more often than not, so I'm very aware of how they resonate, sustain and sound acoustically.
In guitar shops I prefer not to plug in, because I can assess the guitar better that way. Saves embarrassment too.....
I play guitar unplugged most of the time as well. I like my amps cranked or not at all. I think that it really helps the whole "tone is in the fingers" thing. I can feel like I can now 'feel' any sound that I'd hear with an amp. Gain is felt in the dynamics, as is smooth jazz sounds.
Right track i think though, really means that you have to look at all point where vibration or energy is transferred to the body and all point where that contact may be inhibited or broken. I guess you're looking at the bridge assembly, neck join and nut. Mebbe the tuner posts as well (thinking the sleeves being the right size).
How old is the guitar? does it use one of those tone pro's style bridges ones or one of the one where bits fall off when you change strings? I dunno, never had to change strings on a trad style LP bridge. I heard things spring off sometimes.
How about the wrapping the under and over on the bridge to decrease the break angle ala bonamassa
I've wanted to try wraparounds for a while but I've never gotten to it. As for the bridge, It's pretty sturdy and it only falls of if you take of all the strings at once - it relies on string tension to hold it together.
The tuners and neck joint are very sturdy.
I have just noticed that I can hear this dissonant buzz that seems to cut any fretted notes short. I haven't gotten round to setting it up today but at the moment it seems very plausible to me that it only needs a good set up (although it plays excellently). Maybe a new nut in the worst case scenario.
I can rest my PS SC245 with the neck free (on a table, for example) and pluck the low E string and it can be heard vibrating for about minute - the pernambuco neck is what does it I think. One of my doublecuts with a mahogany neck will do about 40 seconds.
Do the same check on your guitar and see what you get.
If you're talking about how long a fretted note that's been bent up will sustain, then that's a different thing. A lot there will depend on your fretting technique and the frets themselves.
I was talking about fretted notes :lol: 6 seconds is way too ridiculously short to be plausible for an open note, isn't it?
I do a number of things to try to make Les pauls and suchlike really sing out
These are MY favourite things that I BELIEVE help - you don't have to agree
A lot of what PRS calls his rules of tone I concur with
these are all acoustic factors:
Fresh strings
Decent tuners that feel rock solid - I do like Sperzel but gotoh, grover, scahller or TonePro Kluson are all good
EArvana compensated tuning nut (I know I'm like a broken record over this - but it makes a lot of difference)
Well cut nut slots and well cut saddles grooves smooth with no burrs, with the right angle to let the string sit well
Aluminium tailpiece - big fan of these! Gotoh are the best value.
Tonepro locking tailpiece studs - these clamp the tailpiece rigid - and with an aluminium tailpiece I think it's a good way to go.
A good fret job - nice clean crisply shaped fret-tops
I also like big heavy frets - makes for clean contact without fingertips needing to touch against the board
Very nice advice, thanks.
Unfortunately I don't have much money to spare at the moment but I've been thinking about a new nut for a while.
Pickups will affect things.. It's a bit of a hack, but something compressed (like a warpig) will increase sustain.
Generally I prefer Jonathan's tips though.
Do you think a tubescreamer would help?
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from what you're saying a good setup and also maybe a fret dressing might help
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But they're ELECTRIC gutars, designed to be played through an amp. Playing acoustically to check out the basic properties is a good idea, but I also plug it in and check it too...
You're right of course, but I have so little knowledge of amps, and virtually no experience of playing through a decent amp at any kind of volume.
So playing through an amp in a shop doesn't really help me make a judgement - it just kind of overwhelms me. Heaven help me if I'm ever trying to actually buy an amp rather than a guitar! :?
Anyway, sorry for going off topic again. This has turned into a good discussion. :)
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Yeah, I'd agree with that. I've found that very light, resonant, acoustically loud electric guitars feel "alive" in your hands but that doesn't always translate into good sustain.
Whereas guitars which feel quite "dead" acoustically can turn out to have really good sustain when amplified - often the case with hefty guitars like Les Pauls!
I can confirm that my Vox Custom 24, which is rather quiet (not very resonant) unplugged (I wouldn't say "dead" cause it still does react to playing, attack etc), has an amazing sustain even on pristine clean settings.
But the Vox Standard 25 I had a couple years ago had almost as much sustain, while being very resonant (and a strat-like construction where neither the bolt-on neck nor the vintage trem are known to help wrt/ sustain). The main difference vs a strat was the very thick and heavy maple body (which I guess was at least 4 or 5 parts - not supposed to help neither).
I sometimes think the resonance of the body dissipates the energy from the vibrating strings by sort of soaking it up, hence less sustain. That probably doesn't make much sense scientifically....
It does make sense and that's why we've seen all these very heavy neck-thru guitars in the late 70s / early 80s - which the Vox Custom 24 is a typical specimen of. But while there may be some truth in it, the whole phenomenon is obviously much more complex.
@Itamar: as everyone else already said, sustain (natural sustain I mean) depends mostly on mechanical factors, so if you feel like your guitar lost sustain then you know what to check for. You mentionned it had "gone through multiple changes with techs" - which of these changes could have had some impact on the mechanical side of things ? Anyway - this is IMHO a job for a good luthier (not "guitar tech").
Do you think a tubescreamer would help?
By definition, any clipping stage will level out the loudest part of the signal, which impacts the perception of the sustain - but this will not _add_ anything by itself. For "infinite sustain" you have to have enough gain and / or (preferably) volume to go into feedback, then find the correct distance / position to get this feedback on the right frequency.
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6 seconds sustain on fretted note is probably about average. Your finger will easily absorb the energy from the string in no time as it's so soft. Imagine a nut made of marshmallow ;)
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6 seconds sustain on fretted note is probably about average. Your finger will easily absorb the energy from the string in no time as it's so soft. Imagine a nut made of marshmallow ;)
Haha :lol:
Nice analogy.
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So you just need to remove all the flesh on your fingertips and sand the bone smooth...problem solved.
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So you just need to remove all the flesh on your fingertips and sand the bone smooth...problem solved.
or wear wooden/metal thimbles? :D Iommi manages it. I dont think the finger mutilation he suffered was by choice though ;)
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Most of my guitars are 20-40seconds in the Twinfan sustain test
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My nuts are hard..