Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: photone on October 22, 2012, 12:05:10 PM
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Hello,
I want to upgrade my Gretsch Electromatic Double Jet G5248T with some BK pickups and I feel lost trying to find the best solution. So, my guitar is a double-cutaway Double Jet features a chambered mahogany solid body with arched maple top, set mahogany neck with rosewood fretboard. I have in the Seymour Duncan JB bridge +Jazz neck. I like to play some melodic metal, a lot of rhythm parts and cleans, but without screaming leads, and the guitar is tuned in C.
Ok, why Gretsch for metal? .. becouse I think is a very versatile guitar with amazing cleans and a very good response for high gain stuffs,but with the right pickups. The Seymour Duncan JB+Jazz are ok. I have also the triple shot rings for spliting options, and the JAZZ pickup can do amaizing cleans. Now, the JB is good and I like it but it is maybe a little to crispy on treble side and under higher gain setup the low end becoming muddy and lost definition on rhythm parts. So I try to find a better pickup combination that will be good for my guitar specifications ( chambered solid mahogany body with arched maple top, mahogany neck and rosewood fingerboard) tuned in C. It is more important to me to find first a bridge pickup. Firs look is for high output pickups but also a vintage hot that can handle well high gain setup could be a solution.
Thank you for any input!
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I think you should have a look at the Cold Sweat set. It's on the bright side tone wise, I think it'll go really well with a mahogonay guitar and the drop c tuning. The Cold Sweat neck has a lot of fans amongst the metal crowd for its great cleans and fluid lead tone. If you want something with more aggression in the bridge position have a look at the Nailbomb.
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Hi and welcome.
The usual suspects for people looking for "a better JB" are the Holydiver and Alnico Nailbomb - but none of them will sound just like a JB :mrgreen:. The ABomb is way more aggressive - "abrasive" might be the word here. Can't tell much more about the HD (never had a chance to try it yet), but you'll find quite a few opinions on HD vs JB searching this forum and for the kind of tones you mention (and what you liek and silike about the JB) I think the HD might be a better fit.
A lower gain option for a warm and full sounding bridge might be the Black Dog (disclaimer : no personal experience with it), and if you guitar is bright enough you may also want to have a look at the Crawler bridge (about the same output level as the JB, rather warm and fat with still enough highs to cut thru).
wrt/ neck pup, I replaced the Jazz in my SG with a Mule, and it's jsut everything the Jazz would like to be. I might replace it with something a bit brighter (RiffRaff or else) one day cause it's a rather dark SG, but the cleans are so good I still have not pulled the trigger.
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Thank u very much for the sugestions.
Ok, maybe "melodic metal" wasn't the best to describe what like to play :roll: So closer could be a down tempo metal with atmospheric parts. Basically with a lot of long sustained down tuned riffs and some palm mutting parts (not tight agressive speed rhythm metal parts) , clean parts and some lead parts but not fast screaming solos. Anyway I want to retain some clarity and definition under rhythmic parts without lose thickness, and for that the Seymour Duncan JB tend to loss the definition and clarity on bottom end becoming a bit muddy with higher gain amplifier setups. Now this could be becouse my guitar maybe isn't a typical "metal guitar" having a double cutaway chambered mahogany solid body with arched maple top. Unplugged acoustically resonate well and for that reason the cleans are amazing but distorted tend to "amplify" the sound and with high gain setups I lose definition and clarity.
So don't know if the guitar it could be caled"bright" but it seems that the JB tend to accentuate the resonance of my guitar's chambered body. In other words I like JB maybe 80% for what can deliver, in my setup, but I need that 20%. So need a JB style pickup but without "ice picking" treble and a better definition and clarity at bottom end but without loosing thickness, and all that in C tuned chambered mahogany body guitar :P
Maybe the Hollydriver is better or even the Crawler or Aftermath? or...
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Anyway I want to retain some clarity and definition under rhythmic parts
I have yet to hear a BKP that (installed in the proper guitar) would lack clarity and definition.
without lose thickness, and for that the Seymour Duncan JB tend to loss the definition and clarity on bottom end becoming a bit muddy with higher gain amplifier setups. Now this could be becouse my guitar maybe isn't a typical "metal guitar" having a double cutaway chambered mahogany solid body with arched maple top. Unplugged acoustically resonate better and for that reason the cleans are amazing but distorted tend to "amplify" the sound and with high gain setups I lose definition and clarity.
I'v had the JB in my SG and it behaved just like you describe. Neither the RiffRaff nor the ABomb exihibited any of these problems (same guitar, same rig).
I also have RiffRaff in a semi-hollow, and it doesn't loose any clarity or definition even under maximum gain (wether on a cranked Fender BF type amp boosted with a couple ODs or on a full cranked SLO-like hi-gain amp).
I have no experience with Holydiver so I can't seriously comment, chances are it might fit your needs but I'll leave it to somenone more knowledgeable. The Crawler has the "fat chunky yet clear" features but the lows will probably not be tight and fast enough for your needs - specially droptuned to C.
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I would look at the Holy Diver. Gretsches have usually a brighter natural voice then say a LP and the HD will provide the necessary beef. To that comes the chambered body. A Cold Sweat for instance might be too bright. The HD produces delicious full solotones too. One of the best BKP's for leads.
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Holy Diver or Rebel Yell would both provide increased clarity over the JB in the bridge position. However, the RY will definitely be brighter than the JB.
For the neck, I would go with either the Holydiver, Abraxas, Cold Sweat or Emerald. Best to ask Tim.
Cheers Stephan
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Holy Diver
.. at the moment the Holy Driver seems to be the closest to my needs, but still not 100% sure. Also the Crawler.
I need use a heavier gauge strings (12-56 ) to manage the C tuning, so the low end response is increased ,but the JB can't handle well that loosing clarity and definition. I think the Holy Driver can do it better. Or maybe a ceramic pickup?
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You don't want the Crawler for metal. I think the HD and the A-Bomb do this better.
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I'd pick something lower output for a chambered guitar
a vhii or black dog should be fine
they're like clearer and less compressed versions of the nailbomb and holy diver, respectively
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When I hear something with melodic or atmospheric used in the description, I tend to favor lower output pickups for it. I feel like it has a clarity and openness that helps those tunes alot. VHII, Black Dog, or even a Riff Raff. Like Eric said, you could kinda say VHII= Nailbomb, Black Dog= Holy Diver, and Riff Raff= Rebel Yell. I like VHII for this application.
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I use 10-52 in open C on a 24,5" single cut Vintage equipped with HDs. It's a quite dark guitar, and the HDs do their job great there. Great clarity even with the shorter scale and drop tuning. I love that pup! And the HD in the neck is really good too :D
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For a vastly improved JB tone, your first port of call really has to be the Holydiver. However, as you're tuned down to 'C', I'd also strongly suggest the Miracle Man. It's a LOT closer to the Holydiver than you'd imagine as it's thick, warm, organic and fluid but it's also more aggressive and tighter so will probably cope better with the low tuning.
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I made a A-B comparation with a ESP LTD EC-1000 (set neck, mahogany body, with rosewood fretboard, and EMG 81-60 pickups) with a Peavey 6505 + Framus FR212CB guitar cabinet with 2x 12" Celestion Vintage 30 speakers. Without going into a detailed conclusion, under higher gain setup my Gretsch with JB sound"richer and fuller" but increasing the volume the bottom end become muddy and the treble side become unpleasantly tight with some harsh with long sustained notes, while the EMG sound more sterile but remain clearer. The cleans are way better with Gretsch.
If the HolyDriver or even Miracle Man can improve that JB's weekness and can deliver good cleans too,handling well my lower tuning necessity,will be perfect.
The lower output pickups could be a good solution but don't want to use compresor or Tubescreamer to achieve the disered high gain tone. Annyway the Black Dog and the BlackHawk could be a lower output solution.
Until now I'm thinking for HolyDriver, MiracleMan or even Nailbomb (ceramic or alnico), and the Black Dog and the BlackHawk for lower output solution. Finally who can do good cleans too, will be the winner for me.
So still thinking :idea: ...
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blackhawk isn't low output at all
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... hmm... I'm spending hours on forum and Youtube trying to understand how actually sound this pickups, to see if found what I need. I understand that all deliver a wery good balanced tone quality, but also the word "tight" is used a lot for low end tone side, especially with higher output pickups. If the tight = agressive, abrazive, "in your face" , then not what I'm for looking, because my doom down tempo metal playing style need something else.
So wich higher output pickup can be associate with "smooth, fat, warm" low end, balanced mids and sweet top end, but also clear and articulated without beeing muddy under higher gain setup, for a low tuned chambered mahogany guitar?
Anyway,thank you guys helping me to understand why BK pickups are different pickups ,but in a good way...
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I'm not sure it's quite that straightforward as a pickup has a lot of variables. In general terms you can probably say that ceramic pups are tighter and more aggressive sounding than alnico based ones but having said that, an A-Bomb is one of the tightest and most aggressive pickups I've ever tried. To me it seemed tighter and more aggressive than either a Cold Sweat or Miracle Man. By the same token, 'Tight' does not always mean 'aggressive'. A Cold Sweat is a pickup with plenty tightness but I wouldn't say it sounds that aggressive at all and even has decent cleans for a ceramic pup.
Your description of the tone you're looking for is, without a doubt, a Holydiver. That pickup is exactly as you describe it. It's got a very 80's Metal feel going on, a bit like Doug Aldrich and Jake E. Lee. There are only two reasons why I hesitate with the Holydiver. First is simply because I've never personally tried it with such a low tuning (I'm only down half a step from standard) so I don't know how tight it will stay that far down. Secondly, your description of 'doom down tempo Metal' suggests something with a slightly more modern edge to it and that's where I get the idea of the Miracle Man from. Like the Holydiver, it can be described as 'smooth, fat, warm' but it has a slightly more aggressive edge to it and it's also tighter for the lower tuning. The Nailbomb sounded nothing like either the Holydiver or Miracle Man to me and more importantly, doesn't match your description of tone as well.
Overall, I think I'd go with the Miracle Man for what you want.
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I'm not sure it's quite that straightforward as a pickup has a lot of variables. In general terms you can probably say that ceramic pups are tighter and more aggressive sounding than alnico based ones but having said that, an A-Bomb is one of the tightest and most aggressive pickups I've ever tried. To me it seemed tighter and more aggressive than either a Cold Sweat or Miracle Man. By the same token, 'Tight' does not always mean 'aggressive'. A Cold Sweat is a pickup with plenty tightness but I wouldn't say it sounds that aggressive at all and even has decent cleans for a ceramic pup.
Your description of the tone you're looking for is, without a doubt, a Holydiver. That pickup is exactly as you describe it. It's got a very 80's Metal feel going on, a bit like Doug Aldrich and Jake E. Lee. There are only two reasons why I hesitate with the Holydiver. First is simply because I've never personally tried it with such a low tuning (I'm only down half a step from standard) so I don't know how tight it will stay that far down. Secondly, your description of 'doom down tempo Metal' suggests something with a slightly more modern edge to it and that's where I get the idea of the Miracle Man from. Like the Holydiver, it can be described as 'smooth, fat, warm' but it has a slightly more aggressive edge to it and it's also tighter for the lower tuning. The Nailbomb sounded nothing like either the Holydiver or Miracle Man to me and more importantly, doesn't match your description of tone as well.
Overall, I think I'd go with the Miracle Man for what you want.
I use my lp with holy divers in drop C constantly with 11-49s and it still sounds reasonably tight and clear even through my orange TH30 which is nowhere near as tight and bright as a 6505. I think it'd be great great choice Seeing as its also rather good at cleans... Probably more-so that the MM and the A-Bomb.
The black hawk (although rather high output) has been praised for charity and cleens, though and the black dog also had very nice cleans.
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I have used the Holy Diver and I still have the Black Dog and Nailbomb.
While the Holy Diver is maybe closest to the the JB, I'd recommend the Black Dog for your type of guitar.
Also, it can sound more "brutal" than the HD, which, in my experience, tends to sound more saturated and smooth. I would not have any problems recommending the BD for any metal application - it needs more push from a pedal, but works just great.
The Nailbomb is just as others described - it has a bit more of an abrasive mid range. I feel the NB is the perfect pickup for Dream Theater-style sounds.
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While the Holy Diver is maybe closest to the the JB, I'd recommend the Black Dog for your type of guitar.
Also, it can sound more "brutal" than the HD, which, in my experience, tends to sound more saturated and smooth. I would not have any problems recommending the BD for any metal application - it needs more push from a pedal, but works just great.
+1
except for the dog being able to get more "brutal" than the diver
the diver gets aggressive pretty easily
the dog can get there, but it's still more polite
both need some boosting, imo, but a 6505+ would do the job alone anyway
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Thank you guys again for all your suggestions...
I send a email to Tim with my "problem" and somehow surprisingly to me (at first look) , he recomand me a set of Nailbombs with ceramic in bridge for " improved bass definition, a clearer mid range and more classic voicing, becouse Nailbombs are very good with lower tunings and have a lovely organic, rich character".
So if the Nailbomb can do all af that is perfect, but I'm still not convinced if the ceramic Naibomb not have that "brighter cut in the high end" like JB that iritate me. Maybe the alnico version of Nailbomb have smoother highs and not very tight low end. However, until now listening hundreds of clips on Youtube , my conclusion is that the Alnico BKpickups are tighter and more accurate than some other manufacturers alnico based pickups ( at least compared to my Semour Duncan JB ), so maybe the BK ceramic have to much "tight" for my taste. But again I think maybe I'm not 100% clear with how actually this pickups sound. I'm still digging on Youtube for a clip with a similar guitar to mine, with BK pickups ( a Gretsch with BK pickups for doom metal is hard to find :P , think a newer model of Les Paul Studio that have chambered body and rosewood fretboard is close enough).
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So if the Nailbomb can do all af that is perfect, but I'm still not convinced if the ceramic Naibomb not have that "brighter cut in the high end" like JB that iritate me.
Maybe the alnico version of Nailbomb have smoother highs
Can't compare with CBomb but I wouldn't label the ABomb highs as "smooth" in any way, and that's in a dark SG. Not harsh not brittle nor thin, but definitly not smooth.
and not very tight low end.
The ABomb is as tight - and often tighter - than most ceramic pups I've played so far.
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Thank you guys again for all your suggestions...
I send a email to Tim with my "problem" and somehow surprisingly to me (at first look) , he recomand me a set of Nailbombs with ceramic in bridge for " improved bass definition, a clearer mid range and more classic voicing, becouse Nailbombs are very good with lower tunings and have a lovely organic, rich character".
So if the Nailbomb can do all af that is perfect, but I'm still not convinced if the ceramic Naibomb not have that "brighter cut in the high end" like JB that iritate me. Maybe the alnico version of Nailbomb have smoother highs and not very tight low end. However, until now listening hundreds of clips on Youtube , my conclusion is that the Alnico BKpickups are tighter and more accurate than some other manufacturers alnico based pickups ( at least compared to my Semour Duncan JB ), so maybe the BK ceramic have to much "tight" for my taste. But again I think maybe I'm not 100% clear with how actually this pickups sound. I'm still digging on Youtube for a clip with a similar guitar to mine, with BK pickups ( a Gretsch with BK pickups for doom metal is hard to find :P , think a newer model of Les Paul Studio that have chambered body and rosewood fretboard is close enough).
The Nailbomb has a warm and full top end. It's the mids that are aggressive.
The Alnico version is plenty tight.
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While the Holy Diver is maybe closest to the the JB, I'd recommend the Black Dog for your type of guitar.
Also, it can sound more "brutal" than the HD, which, in my experience, tends to sound more saturated and smooth. I would not have any problems recommending the BD for any metal application - it needs more push from a pedal, but works just great.
+1
except for the dog being able to get more "brutal" than the diver
the diver gets aggressive pretty easily
the dog can get there, but it's still more polite
both need some boosting, imo, but a 6505+ would do the job alone anyway
I swear in my guitar (an SG) the BD is super heavy and way more brutal sounding once boosted. It even outclasses my EMGs.
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The Nailbomb has a warm and full top end. It's the mids that are aggressive.
The Alnico version is plenty tight.
..in that case the ceramic Nailbomb maybe is more appropriate to my needs, as Tim recomended, maybe because has a smoother mids , but ,again... is ceramic = tighter and more cuting top end, so don't know...
Anyway The A-bomb could be considered tighter than Miracle Man?
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The Nailbomb has a warm and full top end.
"full" : yes - but not as thick as the Crawler. "warm" ? well, it's not "cold" for sure XD, but it's not rounded nor smooth nor... well, you get the point. One thing is sure is that you have no problem cutting through a very dense mix with a Abomb bridge.
It's the mids that are aggressive.
The Alnico version is plenty tight.
I agree on both points. Also, it's a surprisingly clear, dynamic and open-sounding pup given it's output level, and it cleans up beautifully with the volume pot.
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Tim's a great guy but he does suggest Nailbombs for an awful lot of things; he did with me and it's the only time he's been wrong. The Nailbomb is NOTHING like a JB and NOTHING like a Holydiver. The Holydiver is warm, fat and smooth and the Nailbomb is none of those things. If you want an improved JB, don't get the Nailbomb.
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I'm in the same position. I want to change a JB in an LTD H-500, mahogany body, maple top, tuned in C, for something with also strong mids like JB but tighter lows, and better cleans. I also thought at Abomb, but it may not be tight enough for mahogany and C tuning. So I thought at Painkiller.
You can find a great sounding Nailbomb here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDLXQ60_oI, but mind you that that's a neck through alder wings guitar, so very bright, but look how dark it sounds. This guy has also a lot of samples with Painkiller on Tonefinder which sound excelent.
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The Nailbomb is NOTHING like a JB
Well, they are both mid/hot humbuckers... but that about all they have in common, indeed.
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I also thought at Abomb, but it may not be tight enough for mahogany and C tuning. So I thought at Painkiller.
You can find a great sounding Nailbomb here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDLXQ60_oI, but mind you that that's a neck through alder wings guitar, so very bright, but look how dark it sounds.
The last thing you can accuse a Nailbomb of being is lacking in tightness!
The clip you posted does have a very 'Nailbomb' feel to it because it's tight and very aggressive sounding, which is exactly my point. While the Nailbomb is very 90's Metal with a very aggressive edge to it, the JB and Holydiver are smooth and fluid while still being tight enough for most applications. The Holydiver also responds well to an overdrive pedal. If your guitar is a dark sounding mahogany instrument in a low tuning and you like your tone to have a really raw edge to it, the A-Bomb could be ideal but as I real JB alternative (smooth and fluid) you need to look at Holydiver or maybe Miracle Man.
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You can find a great sounding Nailbomb here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDLXQ60_oI
Alnico Nailbomb, in a less br00talz context:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86zOVOZUYvU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86zOVOZUYvU)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6AsHu3Q5zM&list=UUa-ath1u_w5CjmjN78i4vhQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6AsHu3Q5zM&list=UUa-ath1u_w5CjmjN78i4vhQ)
Too much useless shred stuff to my taste but it shows that the Abomb can also do a great job fore more laid back bluesy hard-rock material.
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Alnico Nailbomb, in a less br00talz context:
Nice, but really not very relevant for a low tuning. This guy I believe is tuned in standard and doesn't even touches once the low E string.
I want an edge to the pickup as I play mostly hardrock, but I want to be able to control the cleans also.
Still, not very sure that Nailbomb has lows tight enough for C in mahogany.
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... after hours of researching , I think the specs of ceramic Nailbomb or Miracle Man are the best suited for my guitar/needs. Now, which ones, ...hmmm.... :?
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Out of those two I like Miracle Man.
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Out of those two I like Miracle Man.
can you give me more arguments?
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Initially, my first choice for a improved JB was the Holy Driver. Tim recomended me a set of Nailboms with ceramic one for bridge. At first look I was sceptical to put a C-bomb ( or any ceramic pickup) in my guitar becouse I'm afraid for the over tightness that could deliver the ceramic magnet and I'm not so into the fast shreded rhythm parts. But... comparing the JB eq specs (B=5,M=6,T=8) wich are close to HolyDrivers' specs and becouse the chambered mahogany tend to emphasize the mids maybe that was the reason to recomande me a C-Bomb with a smoother mids. I know that my guitar will sound more tight like before but for standard C tune maybe this is a good thing. The A-Bomb with more mids think will be to bright or abrazive for may taste. The Miracle Man is higher output and the specs looks even better with more compressed mids but that "surgically tight bass and crisp highs" how the MM is described on BK page still make me to thinking that C-Bomb is little smoother than MM and will fit better in my guitar.
...and if I find the right pickup for me I'm tottaly in the fog regarding to the covered or uncovered choice.
Still trying to find the good decision :?:
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... Anybody use a neck Alnico 5 Miracle Man in bridge position? The output is very similar but I think the alnico version have more mids and less trebles.
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the alnico miracle man sounds more like a warpig/nailbomb crossover
it's a very low mid heavy pickup and darker sounding than the holy diver
FELINE compares it with the suhr aldrich, but I never played the suhr
it's fatter and more compressed than the ceramic miracle man
reminds me of the dimarzio tone zone, but without sounding like a muddy mess
compared to the warpig, it sounds more modern and less grinding
bit more low mids and less top end than the alnico nailbomb
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ok.. I'm very close to the finish line to choose a set of BK pickups, with 3 very close options:
1. C-Bomb bridge, A-Bomb neck
2. Miracle Man calibrated set
3. Ceramic Miracle Man bridge, Cold Sweat neck
Of these the Miracle Man set think I like more even if the cleans maybe not the best,and maybe the bass response could be to much loosing tightness with lower tunings in chambered mahogany,but I like the posibility to use even the alnico neck pickup for bridge. I like the versatility of Nailbomb set,better cleans I think but a bit worry for less output comparing to my actual JB .
So maybe the night will be a good adviser too... :P