Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: seancorker on November 05, 2012, 06:47:29 PM
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I've finally got my hands on my dream guitar a Kramer Nightswan. I've lusted after one since I was a teenager in the 80's and will be going to pick it up on Saturday.
So pickups: Its got Seymour D's in it (Full Shred bridge and a JB in the middle). I'll give them a go but I really don't like SD's
So suggestions please.
The guitar has a mahogany body and a 24 3/4 scale Maple neck and Ebony fingerboard so a super strat with LP credentials. I love my 80's super strats but they are all of the Alder/Maple 25.5" variety. I've tried most of the PU's that BK offer but in Alder bodies. I prefer the hot rodded PAF sound with plenty of upper harmonics. My PU of choice is the Crawler, I love the gutsy mid range. I like the liquidity of Holy Diver but it just doesn't have the mid I like.
I'm in uncharted mahogany / LP scale territory here so its clean slate time.
The other issue is the middle PU (there is no neck PU on the Nightswan. I've not got a scooby with that one but it would would probably use it for cleaner tones.
Cheers Folks
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For cleaner - try the stormy monday - or maybe a manhatten HSP90
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Would a 7K mid PU balance ok with a 14K - 15 ? Bridge? I know it works in the neck but in the middle?
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depends on how you use it ...
Some players use one pickup exclusively for cleans and bluesy stuff and the other for rocky riffs and the like
Even down to when using a clean channel they will use one pickup and when using the dirty channel they will predominantly use the other pickup.
Remember that the Crawler is 15k of 43 gauge and the Stormy is 8k of 42 gauge do its not actually like a 2:1 ratio as the 43 gauge has a higher DC per foot of wire
I'd say it's no worse than playing a strat with a HSS setup and going to the middle pickup
The SM will be a lot bigger sounding than a strat pickup
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Cheers, that makes sense.
I tend to use my volume + in between position a lot so a I could do with them balancing though. I like the cold sweat in the neck of my alder HSH modded Kramer Pacer
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The Crawler has a great mid growl. It's quite thick in my swampashstrat. I guess it will even be more massive in mahogany. An Abraxas would be a good alternative for mahogany. Has a bit more topend chime then the Crawler. For the middle I would pick a Mule. So balanced, so much depth, full yet crispy. Abraxas and Mule should go well together, being both AIV's.
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I agree Crawler or Abraxas would be good choices.
There is the slight worry that they might be a bit muddy in mahogany, but on the other hand you've got a maple/ebony bolt-on neck and a Floyd, which will tend to brighten things up. I think those factors probably influence the tone more than the body wood, to be honest.
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Cheers Guys - this was the info I was looking for.
The SD full shred is, I believe, very toppy. How about a Rebel Yell? I love the sound samples I've heard of it.
Either way I'll live with the SD's for a while and then try a Crawler from one of my other guitars.
The other factor is that my other guitars have either got the brass or Titanium blocks which to me makes a massive difference in the tone so that will probably be the first upgrade.
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I'm not a big fan of the Rebel Yell, it has a lot up upper mids and not much in the way of bass. That said, it does sound very "80s" so it might fit the bill! :D
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All ways tricky - I'm trying to balance keeping the original shreddy vibe of the guitar whilst updating the sound and making it a working guitar.
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All ways tricky - I'm trying to balance keeping the original shreddy vibe of the guitar whilst updating the sound and making it a working guitar.
I always find any humbucker in any strat-like guitar to be quite shreddy ;) But I know what you mean..
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All ways tricky - I'm trying to balance keeping the original shreddy vibe of the guitar whilst updating the sound and making it a working guitar.
I always find any humbucker in any strat-like guitar to be quite shreddy ;) But I know what you mean..
The Crawler isn't really, but isn't muddy either and that's a good thing.
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All ways tricky - I'm trying to balance keeping the original shreddy vibe of the guitar whilst updating the sound and making it a working guitar.
I always find any humbucker in any strat-like guitar to be quite shreddy ;) But I know what you mean..
Yeah, if you're used to humbuckers in set-neck mahogany guitars they do sound entirely different in bolt-ons.
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I thought of suggesting RYs after I saw your first post but I'm not sure how much effect the maple bolt-on neck/ebony board would have. I posted this in the player's section to show how thick and chunky the RYs can sound but they are in an all mahogany, set neck guitar. I don't solo in this song so you are just hearing my amp's rhythm setting but might give you an idea. I have a feeling they'd sound amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZtwUEr8v17Y
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I think the Crawler should work well in the bridge of that guitar, even though the Holydiver would have been my first choice for getting an 80s tone with an 80s guitar.
As regards the middle pickup - will you split the pickups in the combined position? If so I would use a either a hotter neck humbucker (e.g. something like the Nailbomb neck) or a moderately hot bridge humbucker - Emerald or Abraxas come to mind. If you don't intend to split the middle pickup, I would choose a vintage model.
Cheers Stephan
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BTW - pics of that guitar would be cool.
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I thought of suggesting RYs after I saw your first post but I'm not sure how much effect the maple bolt-on neck/ebony board would have. I posted this in the player's section to show how thick and chunky the RYs can sound but they are in an all mahogany, set neck guitar. I don't solo in this song so you are just hearing my amp's rhythm setting but might give you an idea. I have a feeling they'd sound amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZtwUEr8v17Y
That's a really nice chunky tone mate - love the drummer as well! I do like Steve Stevens tone a lot and the sound clips I've heard. If I could get that nice big tone with the bolt on maple neck I'd be happy.
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I think the Crawler should work well in the bridge of that guitar, even though the Holydiver would have been my first choice for getting an 80s tone with an 80s guitar.
As regards the middle pickup - will you split the pickups in the combined position? If so I would use a either a hotter neck humbucker (e.g. something like the Nailbomb neck) or a moderately hot bridge humbucker - Emerald or Abraxas come to mind. If you don't intend to split the middle pickup, I would choose a vintage model.
Cheers Stephan
Stephen I use all the position on my guitar and do a fair bit of volume adjusting too. My band plays anything from chic to Oasis to sweet Child and I like to do it with one guitar. My Kramer Pacer routed to HSH with a Crawler / MM / cold sweat is a great go-to guitar.
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BTW - pics of that guitar would be cool.
Will post up some Kramer porn when I get the Swan this weekend. Will post a pic of my Kramer Frankenpacer finished in fetching BandQ yacht varnish for those of strong disposition (lol).
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Stephen I use all the position on my guitar and do a fair bit of volume adjusting too. My band plays anything from chic to Oasis to sweet Child and I like to do it with one guitar. My Kramer Pacer routed to HSH with a Crawler / MM / cold sweat is a great go-to guitar.
I'd imagine you could get a pretty interesting funk rhythm tone on the Nightswan if you could wire it for both pickups split in the middle position.
Might be interesting to wire them out of phase, too, although that's better with two volume controls.
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I thought of suggesting RYs after I saw your first post but I'm not sure how much effect the maple bolt-on neck/ebony board would have. I posted this in the player's section to show how thick and chunky the RYs can sound but they are in an all mahogany, set neck guitar. I don't solo in this song so you are just hearing my amp's rhythm setting but might give you an idea. I have a feeling they'd sound amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZtwUEr8v17Y
That's a really nice chunky tone mate - love the drummer as well! I do like Steve Stevens tone a lot and the sound clips I've heard. If I could get that nice big tone with the bolt on maple neck I'd be happy.
You say that, but earlier you mentioned you don't want to consider a Holy Diver. I'd have thought it would be just the job for this, but of course personal taste etc
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gWem, this is an interesting case. What I seem to be hearing is that the RY and the HD are different ways of approaching similar ends. Some suggest that for the 80s rock sound in an alder Strat go for the HD, for a similar sound in a mahogany Gibson-ish guitar go for the RY. The Nightswan seems to sit somewhere in the middle.
This guy gets a great sound but, as gWem remarked, they sound a lot more shreddy in a Strat type.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHqiuF36mc8
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I thought of suggesting RYs after I saw your first post but I'm not sure how much effect the maple bolt-on neck/ebony board would have. I posted this in the player's section to show how thick and chunky the RYs can sound but they are in an all mahogany, set neck guitar. I don't solo in this song so you are just hearing my amp's rhythm setting but might give you an idea. I have a feeling they'd sound amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZtwUEr8v17Y
That's a really nice chunky tone mate - love the drummer as well! I do like Steve Stevens tone a lot and the sound clips I've heard. If I could get that nice big tone with the bolt on maple neck I'd be happy.
You say that, but earlier you mentioned you don't want to consider a Holy Diver. I'd have thought it would be just the job for this, but of course personal taste etc
When I tried the HD in my Kramer Pacer I found the mids a little characterless. The liquidity and smoothness of how the notes seem to flow are really nice. The other characteristic that I wasn't keen on was that there wasn't the same usability of tones when you back off the volume compared to the Crawler. It really is the perfect all or nothing shredding pickup but I like my pickups to growl and snarl
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gWem, this is an interesting case. What I seem to be hearing is that the RY and the HD are different ways of approaching similar ends. Some suggest that for the 80s rock sound in an alder Strat go for the HD, for a similar sound in a mahogany Gibson-ish guitar go for the RY. The Nightswan seems to sit somewhere in the middle.
This guy gets a great sound but, as gWem remarked, they sound a lot more shreddy in a Strat type.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHqiuF36mc8
I'm really leaning towards the RY. The sound in the vid had that Warren deMartini / Charvel vibe. I love how the harmonics fly off the top higher notes. If the Nightswan will give me that vibe with the extra weight of the mahogany body then I might never put it down!
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I'm really leaning towards the RY. The sound in the vid had that Warren deMartini / Charvel vibe.
Funny you should say that, when I had a Rebel Yell I found myself forever playing (or trying to play) the riff from "Round and Round". :lol:
That said, it was in a thin-bodied all-mahogany Les Paul, but it was acoustically a fairly bright guitar if I remember right.
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seems like you want something with good dynamics.
its true the holy diver isn't as dynamic as other pickups in the range. though it is far far better than other brands.
i almost wonder about the VH2, it does growl.. but why not try the Rebel Yell indeed. i have one in an LP-type and sounds BIG.
anyway, i am quite interested in this thread, because i always think the nightswan is a very cool guitar :) hope you get the right pickup that fits you!
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Rebel Yell is a cool pickup, too - I really love them in my LP Custom. In a thinner bodied guitar it could lack bass though.
I believe Eric also said it has a de Martini feel to it, and I can see that being the case in a guitar with lots of maple.
Lots of good choices with BKP - which makes deciding difficult sometimes ...
Cheers Stephan
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If you go for the RY bear in mind that has a reputation as the pickiest of the BK range when it comes to height. Mine didn't sound anything like the clip I posted when they were first installed. It took me a LOT of adjusting to get the right height.
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seems like you want something with good dynamics.
its true the holy diver isn't as dynamic as other pickups in the range. though it is far far better than other brands.
i almost wonder about the VH2, it does growl.. but why not try the Rebel Yell indeed. i have one in an LP-type and sounds BIG.
anyway, i am quite interested in this thread, because i always think the nightswan is a very cool guitar :) hope you get the right pickup that fits you!
Agree 100% about BK being better then other brands - I've got em in in all my guitars (apart from a single coil spaced HB). And yes, I need a PU which responds well to the volume knob, especially because I use a Cornford MKii which is very responsive to pick attack volume pots.
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After a 7 hour round trip I've got the guitar and its simply a - bleedin' - mazing!!
The neck is perfect. The ebony board is so smooth that bending is a joy, the neck is so fast its effortless and it feels very close to a Gibson 335 in size. Access is easy right up to the 24th fret.
The clarity and definition makes each note jump out and you can hear every note in a chord - and all this with a very very low action. I've just sat and played it for a couple of hours and not bothered to plug it in its that good! I think with the right PU this guitar will measure up to anything out there.
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As some people have expressed an interest in the thread I'll keep reporting on the Swan.
I've spent most of the day playing the guitar through my amps and reached a couple of conclusions: The natural upgrade for the SD Full shred is the Holydiver. They share the same liquidity of feel with a high gain amp.
There is definitely a Les Paul vibe about the guitar tone
The second conclusion is that the SD pickup are pants and will have to go. I thought I might be able to use them for a gig to see how they felt but if you wind off the volume they sound like a thin nasely single coil - You might as well replace the volume with an on/off switch. The JB isn't much better! Both PU suffer from S Duncans' characteristic muddy mids.
For the middle PU I think I'll have to go with the Cold sweat but wound in between neck and bridge. The current pickup has the vibe of a neck PU with more clarity and punch.
I'm still undecided about the bridge but I'll try a crawler from another guitar in there when I get the middle PU ordered.
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If backing off the volume is like an on/off switch then maybe change the vol pot before making expensive decisions like pickup choices.
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If backing off the volume is like an on/off switch then maybe change the vol pot before making expensive decisions like pickup choices.
The pot is a CTS which looks pretty new. There are enough reasons without the volume issue to ditch the SD's
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If backing off the volume is like an on/off switch then maybe change the vol pot before making expensive decisions like pickup choices.
Sorry just read your quote properly. By on off switch I meant that the PU only sounds good on 10. The lower volume tones are unusably thin and nasely so it might as well have an on off switch.
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What value pot do you have in there - 250k or 500k? And is it a log ("A") or a linear ("B") type? For humbuckers I prefer a 500k log type for best control.
A slight disadvantage of 500k pots vs. 250k pots is that they appear to kill more highs than the lower value pots. A popular attempt to correct this is to add a small capacitor (say 100pf to 1000pf) between the input (where the wire from the pickup or the pickup selector is attached) to the volume pot wiper (the middle tap). This cap has a more pronounced effect the more the pot is turned down - which can be the reason for "thin sound". A "counter-fix" to that is to put a resistor in parallel with the cap (say 100k to 1M). Do you have any such compensation circuit in your guitar? If yes, try and take it out to see if you like that better.
Never played the Full Shred but I guess everybody on this forum by now knows that I strongly dislike the JB and believe I would like any BKP humbucker better.
Cheers Stephan
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What value pot do you have in there - 250k or 500k? And is it a log ("A") or a linear ("B") type? For humbuckers I prefer a 500k log type for best control.
A slight disadvantage of 500k pots vs. 250k pots is that they appear to kill more highs than the lower value pots. A popular attempt to correct this is to add a small capacitor (say 100pf to 1000pf) between the input (where the wire from the pickup or the pickup selector is attached) to the volume pot wiper (the middle tap). This cap has a more pronounced effect the more the pot is turned down - which can be the reason for "thin sound". A "counter-fix" to that is to put a resistor in parallel with the cap (say 100k to 1M). Do you have any such compensation circuit in your guitar? If yes, try and take it out to see if you like that better.
Never played the Full Shred but I guess everybody on this forum by now knows that I strongly dislike the JB and believe I would like any BKP humbucker better.
Cheers Stephan
I'm going to drop a Crawler in the bridge from another guitar plus strip out any excess wiring etc this weekend. I believe the guy who built it put a cap in there, which would make sense as its a 500k CTS and should be fine. Like you I'm not a fan of JB's or any Seymours to be honest.
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The Crawler went in today and the difference is astounding! What was Seymour Duncan thinking when he designed the Full Shred? Its a truly awful PU!
The guitar now has bottom end and very tight and chunky it is too! the mids have clarity and articulation and there are plenty of harmonics flying off the high notes. The Crawler has long been my favorite BKP PU but it sounds stunning in the Swan, especially now I've tidied up the wiring and got rid of the cap.
My dilemma now is what to put into the middle position. The SD JB sounds ok combined with the Crawler for now but it will inevitably have to go.
Do I treat it as a darker bridge PU or a neck with more attack?
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The Crawler went in today and the difference is astounding! What was Seymour Duncan thinking when he designed the Full Shred? Its a truly awful PU!
The guitar now has bottom end and very tight and chunky it is too! the mids have clarity and articulation and there are plenty of harmonics flying off the high notes. The Crawler has long been my favorite BKP PU but it sounds stunning in the Swan, especially now I've tidied up the wiring and got rid of the cap.
My dilemma now is what to put into the middle position. The SD JB sounds ok combined with the Crawler for now but it will inevitably have to go.
Do I treat it as a darker bridge PU or a neck with more attack?
You put in a VHII neck and watch as you get the best rhythm sound ever.
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The Crawler is very good pickup. It always delivers in my coverband in all kind of circumstances and with different backlines.
Maybe not the obvious choiche, but how about an MQ? I like P90's vibe: fat with chime.
When you're no fan of P90's, I personally would try a Mule-neck in that position.
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Sounds like the Crawler bridge sits really well in that axe - congratulations!
I would go for the Crawler neck in the middle position. It's close to a PAF and should not be muddy in the middle position.
I feel the middle pickup is closer in tone to a neck pickup than a bridge pickup. Jake E. Lee uses the middle pickup a lot on Badlands' Voodoo Highway album - almost all of the bluesier tunes have it - and also on Rumbling Train on the first Badlands album. I believe he double tracked the lead using the middle pickup on one track and the bridge pickup on the other - at least this is what I believe I hear.
Cheers Stephan
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I feel the middle pickup is closer in tone to a neck pickup than a bridge pickup. Jake E. Lee uses the middle pickup a lot on Badlands' Voodoo Highway album - almost all of the bluesier tunes have it - and also on Rumbling Train on the first Badlands album. I believe he double tracked the lead using the middle pickup on one track and the bridge pickup on the other - at least this is what I believe I hear.
That would be a middle single-coil rather than a humbucker though, wouldn't it? Assuming it was the white hardtail Strat with a Duncan Allan Holdsworth bridge pickup and DiMarzio SDS-1s.
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That would be a middle single-coil rather than a humbucker though, wouldn't it? Assuming it was the white hardtail Strat with a Duncan Allan Holdsworth bridge pickup and DiMarzio SDS-1s.
That is correct, and yes, I was thinking of that particular white hardtail strat, even if I don't know whether he actually played that one in the studio.
You may wonder why I think "Rumbling Train" is double tracked. I read somewhere that he double and triple tracked many leads on the Ozzy albums, and while listening to "Rumbling Train" sometimes I thought "that is the middle pickup" and then a few seconds later "no, it's the bridge pickup", just to reverse it a few seconds later.
Cheers Stephan
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Sounds like the Crawler bridge sits really well in that axe - congratulations!
I would go for the Crawler neck in the middle position. It's close to a PAF and should not be muddy in the middle position.
I feel the middle pickup is closer in tone to a neck pickup than a bridge pickup. Jake E. Lee uses the middle pickup a lot on Badlands' Voodoo Highway album - almost all of the bluesier tunes have it - and also on Rumbling Train on the first Badlands album. I believe he double tracked the lead using the middle pickup on one track and the bridge pickup on the other - at least this is what I believe I hear.
Cheers Stephan
Cheers, the Crawler is a keeper. It seems to bring out the Les Paul characteristics of the guitar. The whole guitar takes really well to my Cornford live set up too - very dark and crunchy but cuts with incredible clarity.
There isn't a massive tonal difference between bridge and middle - Its slightly nasaly in character but an interesting tone to work with. I'd like to treat it as a neck pickup because thats the job it will do. My only concern is that neck PU's are wound with less output so would shifting it to the middle might cause a volume drop? I really don't know?
I'm really like the cold sweat neck as a benchmark tone but what ever goes in there has to be flexible and give me a good funk tone
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I'm afraid you can't have it all in one guitar. Good funktones for me come from strat-singlecoils. If humbuckers: Mules-set in the middleposition provides decent, crispy funktones. Stormy's would do too.
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You can get a thinner tone which might be suitable for funk if you wire the bridge and middle pickups out of phase. Easy to try, easy to reverse if you don't like it. :)
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I'm afraid you can't have it all in one guitar. Good funktones for me come from strat-singlecoils. If humbuckers: Mules-set in the middleposition provides decent, crispy funktones. Stormy's would do too.
Oh yes I can! 8).
1986 Kramer Pacer routed to HSH with a titanium block, broken D-tuna and yacht varnish - It does everything!
Seriously though, there are plenty of LP an ES players in top Funk bands
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They are, that's why I mentioned Mules/SM's. I just said what works for me: strat is ultimate funk. With HSS and HSH you can do a lot. I agree. Still I take more than one guitar on stage bec I need specific sounds (I'm in a Top100-coverband).
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They are, that's why I mentioned Mules/SM's. I just said what works for me: strat is ultimate funk. With HSS and HSH you can do a lot. I agree. Still I take more than one guitar on stage bec I need specific sounds (I'm in a Top100-coverband).
All joking aside, yes you are right about strats and single coils and my neck / middle position (Cold Sweat / mothers milk) nails Nile Rogers on my guitar, but I couldn't do it without the MM.
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I bet the middle pickup on that nightswan wired in parallel would be very funky
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Final update and conclusion,
I eventually went for the RY in the middle choice with a push pull coil tap and I'm really pleased with the way it turned out. I have 5 very very usable sounds.
The Crawler Bridge and RY middle really compliment each other and the coil tap (which just coil taps the RY leaving the slug on) adds a whole new dimension.
I'm very impressed with the RY. In the middle position it works like either a darker mellower bridge, or a biting neck. Through a Marshal valve combo I couldn't stop playing the Small Faces :? I don't particularly like the Small Faces either! In tapped format it was Fire / Move over Rover time, with a decent Voodoo Chile thrown in for good measure - Fantastic definition and clarity and the best coil tapped sound I've heard.
It still does the sweep pick shred thing as very well.
In clean mode, with the Crawler and tapped RY I got the clean stratty funk tones I was after too.
All in all, If you find yourself with a Kramer Nightswan then a Crawler and Push pull tapped RY is the way to go.
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Congrats! Thanks for the feedback.
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I think that is the first time I heart the RY described as dark and mellow. xD
Anyway, sounds like you got a real keeper with that combo!
Are you splitting the crawler too or just the RY?
Oh and a little thing, you say coil tap, but I think you mean split.^^ Coil tapping is really rare and therefore is often used as a term for coil splitting, which is turning a coil of a humbucker off. Actual coil tapping is when you got a special PU where you can use the full winding or just a part of it, leaving out quite a few turns of wire, making it effectivly underwound in most cases. While this is something I think is really cool and would like try with some overwound PUs it is really, really hard to do it is very rarely ever seen.
90% or more of people get what you mean by coil tapping, it is just a little pet peeve of me ;)
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My apologies for irking your pet peeve but Yes the RY was split not tapped.
The push pull only taps (sorry splits) the RY because I like a HB mixed with a SC as a general Funk / clean tone. For me it punches through better live and adds some muscle to the tone.
The RY is a complete revelation. I'd heard people saying it was a bright PU but in a middle position it is articulate but mellow. If you listen to the live version of Rod Stewart / Faces' Stay with me on you tube you get the idea of where it is. Those major / sus4 triad inversions on the D, G and B strings sound full and mellow but never muddy and always articulate no matter how much gain you add, where as the wound strings have a darker neck PU vibe. The fact that it splits ;-) to a very usable single coil sound is an unexpected bonus.
If you step the gain up to metal levels it sweeps very authentically as well.
Happy days!!!
I think that is the first time I heart the RY described as dark and mellow. xD
Anyway, sounds like you got a real keeper with that combo!
Are you splitting the crawler too or just the RY?
Oh and a little thing, you say coil tap, but I think you mean split.^^ Coil tapping is really rare and therefore is often used as a term for coil splitting, which is turning a coil of a humbucker off. Actual coil tapping is when you got a special PU where you can use the full winding or just a part of it, leaving out quite a few turns of wire, making it effectivly underwound in most cases. While this is something I think is really cool and would like try with some overwound PUs it is really, really hard to do it is very rarely ever seen.
90% or more of people get what you mean by coil tapping, it is just a little pet peeve of me ;)
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Sorry to threadjack but I've been lusting after a Nightswan for years, just like you.
Glad you got yours, play it in good health.
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Glad it's worked out for you. Have fun.