Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: darkbluemurder on December 10, 2012, 09:46:40 AM
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In this thread at the very end I commented on the Holydiver bridge:
https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=16883.0
Meanwhile I have a Miracle Man in that guitar.
I have an ash bodied strat with a maple neck w/ maple board which was quite a heavy beast. I had my luthier make a pool route in there so I could use any pickup configuration. I put the following set up in there: the Holydiver bridge humbucker with two Lollar Special strat pickups I had lying around.
When I first plugged the guitar in I thought "no - this is all wrong - too much midrange". But after a few tweaks in the pickup height I totally dig the midrange push this guitar has. Single notes have a weight to them that they never had - and this is all over the fretboard, even at the dusty end. Yet there is a full chord crunch that lacks nothing. The guitar is very resonant but the HD does not overpower it. Finally it also works very well split together with the middle single coil.
So far I talked overdrive and high gain tones. What about clean tones? I don't really use clean tones much with an electric guitar - that's what acoustic guitars are for IMHO ;) The HD bridge clean tones are not quite my cup of tea - here the midrange can be a bit overbearing, especially if you cannot compensate for it with the amp tone controls. But having two single coils in this guitar I don't see that as a problem.
This guitar is now so much fun to play. On the bridge pickup it does the Jake E. Lee tones almost to a T even though his guitar has a rosewood fretboard. The best way to describe is if you listen to his attack tone on "High Wire" or "Ball and Chain", you will hear these characteristic chirps. They are all there with this guitar now. Great stuff.
Now what's left to do with that guitar? Enhance the wiring. I only got a 5-way selector wired the normal way except an automatic humbucker split in #4 (counting from the neck pickup as #1), master volume (500k log) and master tone (250k log). I got a 470k resistor which is in parallel to the volume pot when the humbucker is split to bring the load down to approx. 240k. I will use a push-pull pot in the third pot spot to be able to split the humbucker individually and wire the pot as a blend control to be able to combine bridge and neck pickups. I have this wiring in another guitar and find it very versatile, yet if I don't need it it is very easy to ignore.
Cheers Stephan
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I had to play around with the height on my HD Bridge to resolve some problems I had with the sound and now I'm as satisfied as you seem to be. I love the Diver for being the perfect organic and clear sounding pickup which can go from blues to metal without a problem and I can't wait to get my next set...
May I "hijack" the threads topic for a minute and ask how you like the Miracle Man? Pretty interessted in getting one :)
Cheers
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OFF TOPIC MODE ON:
I like the Miracle Man very much, too. In the alder guitar discussed in the linked thread it has a bit more output, bass and treble compared to the Holydiver. Since the alder guitar is quite dark, the difference between the two pickups may not be as pronounced as in other guitars.
OFF TOPIC MODE OFF.
Back to the HD: the ash guitar discussed here proved that BKPs are very sensitive to the guitars they are in. This is why you may sometimes read contradictory statements. In addition, not everybody understands the exact same thing about tonal descriptions so you need to read everything in the context given.
Cheers Stephan
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It's a sort of same experience when I loaded my swampash strat with a Crawler and Irish Tours. Took me some time to find the sweet spot, especially with the middy Crawler. Once you got it right, you dig the beef and push of the Crawler, which is like the HD a very good bridgepickup in (non-mahogany) bolt-on guitars.
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Thanks for the feedback Stephan, kinda wanna get myself two more pickguards loaded with different PUs as my Strat is my workhorse guitar, so I've been thinking about a H-S Setup (Miracle Man + Sinner) for teh Metalz to make things tighter and fatter in the low end and a SSS Pickguard for the funky and bluesy stuff, will very probably load it with Mothers Milk SCs. The guitar has a poplar body and an all maple neck so it has a lot of attack and snap to it :)
I was surprised how tight the HD actually is as this isn't what A5 PUs are known for, but I guess that's the BKP nature. Also read a few times that the Rebell Yell is tight as hell!
Btw for all the metal fans, Sylosis new Album Monolith was recorded with a HD loaded Les Paul:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2dFG7-09P0
Cheers
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Glad you like them! They're definitely up there on the short list of pickups I want.
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My two main guitars are both equipped with HDs.
Love how the HD has it's own character in both of them, and rocks as hell...in both of them!
It does pretty much everything aswell, even the cleanest Jazz and metalcore EMG cleans...
One is a Strat (Ash, maple, maple) with pretty much the same wiring the OP has (now, who had it first? :D), the other one a Les Paul with all braided, 50s wiring.
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One is a Strat (Ash, maple, maple) with pretty much the same wiring the OP has (now, who had it first? :D),
Well - for the guitars we are discussing it was definitely you who was first. The other guitar which already has it has it for about two years.
But actually the ash body/maple neck guitar could only have the Holydiver bridge and I still would be very happy with it - the single coils are a nice extra for the clean tones :)
Cheers Stephan
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My two main guitars are both equipped with HDs.
Love how the HD has it's own character in both of them, and rocks as hell...in both of them!
It does pretty much everything aswell, even the cleanest Jazz and metalcore EMG cleans...
One is a Strat (Ash, maple, maple) with pretty much the same wiring the OP has (now, who had it first? :D), the other one a Les Paul with all braided, 50s wiring.
I love Holydiver on my Jackson Fusion Pro '90 (HSS, basswood, maple/ebony, 24.75 scale) for classic '80 metal...
I'd like to get Holydiver even on Charvel San Dimas style 1 (HH, alder, all maple, 25.50 scale), togheter with Emerald on neck...
Do woods and scales make the two guitars different on sound even if both equipped with HD (bridge)?
(I know, it's a philosophical question :lol: but in one hand I want to hold HD main character, in other hand I'd like to get 2 different guitars)
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I love Holydiver on my Jackson Fusion Pro '90 (HSS, basswood, maple/ebony, 24.75 scale) for classic '80 metal...
A fellow Jackson Fusion owner! :D
I have to try the Diver in my Fusion yet, currently it's sitting in a Poplar Body, All Maple Neck Strat and it fits well in there...
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I have a pair of Holydivers in my Ash/anegree bodied Patrick Eggle Climaxe and I've always been a bit indifferent towards them if I'm honest.
After reading GuitarIvs post about his HDs I'm going to follow the advice Feline gave in that thread and mess with the heights a bit as I'm not sure it's the pickups setup that needs tweaking or if it's a bad guitar/pickup mismatch.
If that fails then I plan on moving the HDs into my Jackson DK2M and then trying to find a better fit for the Eggle.
As regards the MM/TS combo I have that in my alder bodied BC Rich Gunslinger and it's great for the 80s Rock I use that guitar for. I can imagine that with a more suitable amp that they'd also do the heavier styles really well too.
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My two main guitars are both equipped with HDs.
Love how the HD has it's own character in both of them, and rocks as hell...in both of them!
It does pretty much everything aswell, even the cleanest Jazz and metalcore EMG cleans...
One is a Strat (Ash, maple, maple) with pretty much the same wiring the OP has (now, who had it first? :D), the other one a Les Paul with all braided, 50s wiring.
I love Holydiver on my Jackson Fusion Pro '90 (HSS, basswood, maple/ebony, 24.75 scale) for classic '80 metal...
I'd like to get Holydiver even on Charvel San Dimas style 1 (HH, alder, all maple, 25.50 scale), togheter with Emerald on neck...
Do woods and scales make the two guitars different on sound even if both equipped with HD (bridge)?
(I know, it's a philosophical question :lol: but in one hand I want to hold HD main character, in other hand I'd like to get 2 different guitars)
Yes, they are still two very different sounding animals. The one still sounds like a Lester, the other one like an Ash Strat.
LP, think Gary Moore lead tones and all that...the Strat sound slike a Hot Rodded Blackmore machine.
At least with my "OD1" amp settings.
They sound the same in a way you'd like them to sound the same. I can swap them without adjusting the amp and they both have that BKP organic quality and clarity.
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I could definitely hear the badlands thing with the holy diver, even in les pauls
oh those mids :D
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It's just the way these mids make everything so musical, tubey and somehow fluid...I mean, other pickups smear together, the Holydiver works together.
Complex chords under gain with vibrato added...the Diver really formed my tone in a positive way. It's a musical lifechanger, but I guess that applies to BKP overall.
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I love Holydiver on my Jackson Fusion Pro '90 (HSS, basswood, maple/ebony, 24.75 scale) for classic '80 metal...
I'd like to get Holydiver even on Charvel San Dimas style 1 (HH, alder, all maple, 25.50 scale), togheter with Emerald on neck...
Do woods and scales make the two guitars different on sound even if both equipped with HD (bridge)?
(I know, it's a philosophical question :lol: but in one hand I want to hold HD main character, in other hand I'd like to get 2 different guitars)
Careful with the Charvel San Dimas, at least the Japanese Pro Mod, the pickups are direct mounted. I tried the HD in mine, and it sat too low from the strings. I tried to shim it up temporarily to see how it sounded closer to the strings, and it still didn't sound right, and I thought it would be perfect for this guitar. It just didn't work.
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Isn't it possible at all to adjust pickup height if they are directly mounted to the wood? O.o
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No, the pickups are just screwed right in, they don't go up or down. The Charvel San Dimas Pro Mods come with the JB in the bridge, and 59 in the neck, and they are already set to the optimal height. It's a fantastic guitar, killer shredder with an awesome neck, but doesn't allow much in the way of customizing (like Charvels of old). I love the guitar, extremely well built with one of the best necks I've ever played on, but the "cookie cutter" factor kind of kills the mojo for me. It's a backup guitar for me right now, but a very capable one. Just killer tone when you need it, and it never goes out of tune. I think the So Cal models are not direct mounted, but I could be wrong.
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Isn't it possible at all to adjust pickup height if they are directly mounted to the wood? O.o
It is possible but more difficult. You have to set the maximum possible height with the length of the mounting screws. You insert then a small spring between the wood and the mounting leg of the pickup and set the height by tightening the screws. Contrary to mounting in rings the pickup will go down when direct mounted instead of up when you tighten the screws. If the pickup does not sit tightly enough or too tightly at the desired height, change the spring to a larger or smaller one respectively.
Cheers Stephan
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Is this the case with every guitar that has the pickups directly mount? I'd wonder if no one has come up with a solution for this yet. In any case i'd try to fix it if I were you. Is the pickup too high or too low? If too high I'd see a luthier to cut the cavity a bit deeper and if the latter is the case, I'd try to put something under the screws. Do you know the little rubber spacers that come with single coils? You could use those together with longer screws to highten the pickup. I must confess those are just some thoughts of mine, I actually never had a guitar with directly mounted PUs before, so maybe post a pic?
Cheers
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Exactly these considerations.
Most P90 guitars have their pickups direct mounted. The routes are usually big enough to put a full size humbucker in there - if you direct mount it. Don't like the humbucker - easy to go back to P90s - which would not be an option if you decide to convert to ring mounting.
I can well imagine why direct mounting is not done on a wider commercial basis - the trial and error process in selecting the proper screws, body rout and springs can be time consuming.
Cheers Stephan
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Thanks for clearing it up Stephan :)
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One of the arguments in favour of direct mounting is that - some claim - it improves the tone because the pickup is directly in contact with the wood and therefore "picks up" the resonance of the body as well as the movement of the strings.
Arguably you lose most of that "benefit" if there's a spring, compressed foam or some other kind of spacer between the pickup and the wood.
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One of the arguments in favour of direct mounting is that - some claim - it improves the tone because the pickup is directly in contact with the wood and therefore "picks up" the resonance of the body as well as the movement of the strings.
Arguably you lose most of that "benefit" if there's a spring, compressed foam or some other kind of spacer between the pickup and the wood.
I guess we have read that on the same website.
I actually did a direct mount once since I needed to get the pickup as far down as possible. The bottoms of the mounting legs were screwed directly to the body, however, the baseplate did not touch the body wood. I did not notice a real improvement in the acoustic tone this way, and the electric tone changed anyway due to the pickup change. So whether the improvement claimed is true or only individually felt I cannot say but then it was not direct mounted in a way that both the bottoms of the mounting legs AND the baseplate touched the wood. I guess doing the latter requires major detail work on part of the luthier to get right, and yes, in that case the pickup height is fixed, or it will no longer be direct mounted in that sense (maybe I should call this kind of direct mounting "total direct mount" as opposed to the "partial direct mount" what I did).
Cheers Stephan
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I read the stuff about the tone improvement as well, however those are such little things and tone gurus tend to get lost sometimes in details that don't even matter that much at the end of the day. However I saw a video with Petrucci talking about his signature Music Man and saying that the direct mount pickups keep the mounting rings outta the way for a more comfrtable hand positioning...
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However I saw a video with Petrucci talking about his signature Music Man and saying that the direct mount pickups keep the mounting rings outta the way for a more comfrtable hand positioning...
... which brings it down to personal preference again ...
Cheers Stephan
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However I saw a video with Petrucci talking about his signature Music Man and saying that the direct mount pickups keep the mounting rings outta the way for a more comfrtable hand positioning...
... which brings it down to personal preference again ...
Definitely! I don't like to feel my hand resting on the pickup, especially an uncovered humbucker. In fact sometimes I'll fit a taller mounting ring to stop my hand touching the pickup.
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I'm less disturbed by the matter of pickups than by misplaced volume pots. I hate it when those buggers are too near to the bridge, always leaves me worrying when I play fast riffs or leads with my hand open. I even once played a live gig where I turned myself completely off and the sound tech tried to counter it and turned my guitar all the way up. Then somewhere halfway of the song I notice it, turn my volume pot all the way up and assault myself, the sound guy and the audience with huge feedback resulting in me being turned down almost to a non recognizable level for the rest of the set. Bummer.
That's why I most times end up resoldering the guitar to a one pot setup, changing the tone to volume :P
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I've got a Washburn guitar with a Strat style layout - volume, two tones and a five-way switch.
Trouble is, the scratchplate isn't the same shape as a Strat scratchplate and whoever designed the control layout was a complete idiot - wherever you move the switch one or other of the knobs gets in the way of your fingers. It's really, really stupid and annoying.
I'm going to make a new plate and relocate the controls more like a Strat. And I might just go for one volume, one tone to keep it even simpler.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p216/phillyq/KGrHqRHJ4E7tv7I4zBPEE84i060_3.jpg)
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I don't get why manufacturers don't think about such stuff...
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I actually have direct mount pick up on single coils of Jackson Fusion Pro (Trilogy Suite custom made by Tim) and I adjust pickup height using little gums on screws that let pu stay not on body wood...
Just curious:
what's distance between strings and Holydiver poles (bridge) for you? (in mm if you can 8) )
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Just curious:
what's distance between strings and Holydiver poles (bridge) for you? (in mm if you can 8) )
Good question - I never measure, I just set it where it sounds good to me. My guess is that it is about 2mm to the 1st and a bit more to the 6th string.
Cheers Stephan
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It's a sort of same experience when I loaded my swampash strat with a Crawler and Irish Tours. Took me some time to find the sweet spot, especially with the middy Crawler. Once you got it right, you dig the beef and push of the Crawler, which is like the HD a very good bridgepickup in (non-mahogany) bolt-on guitars.
I've got the Crawler in a mahogany body Kramer Nightswan and it is awesome! Chunky thick and cuts through in the mix. As others have said, the PU height is key. I set mine so that the clean channel stays clean on full volume. On the dirty channel the mids don't compress and the top end sparkles.
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It's a sort of same experience when I loaded my swampash strat with a Crawler and Irish Tours. Took me some time to find the sweet spot, especially with the middy Crawler. Once you got it right, you dig the beef and push of the Crawler, which is like the HD a very good bridgepickup in (non-mahogany) bolt-on guitars.
I've got the Crawler in a mahogany body Kramer Nightswan and it is awesome! Chunky thick and cuts through in the mix. As others have said, the PU height is key. I set mine so that the clean channel stays clean on full volume. On the dirty channel the mids don't compress and the top end sparkles.
:D Yeah, it's a great pickup, even in mahogany I see.
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Now what's left to do with that guitar? Enhance the wiring. I only got a 5-way selector wired the normal way except an automatic humbucker split in #4 (counting from the neck pickup as #1), master volume (500k log) and master tone (250k log). I got a 470k resistor which is in parallel to the volume pot when the humbucker is split to bring the load down to approx. 240k. I will use a push-pull pot in the third pot spot to be able to split the humbucker individually and wire the pot as a blend control to be able to combine bridge and neck pickups.
Update: I did this wiring yesterday evening and it did everything I expected from it. This was the first time I heard the Holydiver split individually (the 5-way-rotary on the PRS does not offer this option with the stock wiring), and it sounds great there, too - like a strong single coil but retains some of the humbucker compression which makes it a bit more forgiving than a real single coil in the bridge. The neck plus bridge combination sounds great as well, especially with the bridge pickup split.
At the same time I installed a volume kit (aka treble bleed), consisting of an 1 meg ohm resistor in parallel with an 150pf cap, soldered between the input and wiper terminals of the volume pot. This retains the highs when turning down the volume control, and it does so for all pickup selector positions. Now this guitar is even more versatile than it was with the basic wiring.
Cheers Stephan