Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: gwEm on December 17, 2012, 08:45:28 PM
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I've always been able to use the master volume on my JMP50 master volume and get good tone at bedroom levels. In my new flat it's a little too loud though, so I've been eyeing up some of these popular lower wattage amps. I am just on the way back from Guitar Guitar in Epsom where I tried a bunch. I was after the same NWOBHM tone as my Marshall.
Honestly, 15w is barely quieter than the 50 of my JMP. For bedroom recording usage, I reckon 1w is the way to go. Here are my thoughts:
Orange Tiny Terror: it's the classic and still sounds decent. But I see no reason to pick it these days considering the other options available. Still dislike the 7w mode.
Egnater Tweaker: more versatile than the Orange, sounds a bit better, yet more or less the same price. Clearly it's the midprice option to go for at 15w. For me it's still too loud and furthermore the Marshall setting is a bit too modern for my taste. It is dynamic and hifi though.
Laney Cub Head: less dynamic and defined than the Orange or Egnater. But it sounds pretty good anyway (just a touch boxy) and also has reverb and a 1w option. At 200quid you can't go wrong really. New valves might help(?).
Vox Nighttrain: liked it. Very Voxish though, not my tone. Both pentode and triode mode sounded good.
Vox lil Nighttrain: sounded poor next to the bigger model. Less life to it.
Marshall Class 5: no master volume and far too loud. Would need mods. Basic tone good.
Marshall 1w JVM: far too much gain
Marshall 1w JCM2000: quite nice actually. It's got an FX loop and good volume range. The shared EQ didn't work very well though, I just left it on the gain channel. For me it lacked a bit of character, but it was a well thought out design.
Marshall 1w JMP: it's got 'the tone' sounded *great* actually. I miss a master volume though and the EQ was rather subtle. Gets all the emotion points though.
So as you can probably guess, I saved my money. I'd like to try the 1w JCM800 though.
Frankly only really the 1w JCM sounded as good as my existing Marshall. The rest were less good. The Laney is tempting at the price, and the Egnater blew the Orange away, but too loud for me probably.
So I stick with my JMP50 for now ;)
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All these were head versions into the same G12H 2x12 with my Yamaha SGV
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Good to hear this test drive :)
I'm a little away of guitar world by now and didn't now marshall was making 1w amp... Awesome!
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My 5W 6V6 MJW is perfect for very low volumes. When you start getting 10w and over things start to get surprisingly loud when you're in a very small quiet room.
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I put some TAD tonebones in my 50w selmer. the triode versions takes it down to 8w, and its a reasonable 8w for home use, but thats a relatively clean selmer. wouldn't crank it full, but get quite a bit of travel on the volume control before i get moaned at
http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_TAD_Equipment_TAD_ToneBone/
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Well you know how loud my little 10W MJW power amp is with my rack and that is barely cooking at all.
I have a those little Vox Lil nightrains that I intend to use as power amps for the left and right wet signals.
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I'm quite impressed by the Valve Bimbo 5 watt with powerscaling. It's Italian handmade and therefore quite expensive, but a great recording tool.
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At least from my experience the JMP-1 is much better than the JCM-1
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I put some TAD tonebones in my 50w selmer. the triode versions takes it down to 8w, and its a reasonable 8w for home use, but thats a relatively clean selmer. wouldn't crank it full, but get quite a bit of travel on the volume control before i get moaned at
http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_TAD_Equipment_TAD_ToneBone/
Price isn't bad at all! I'll look into it more. I find attenuators pretty expensive, so this may be a good option.
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Well you know how loud my little 10W MJW power amp is with my rack and that is barely cooking at all.
I have a those little Vox Lil nightrains that I intend to use as power amps for the left and right wet signals.
I forgot again how cheap those Little Nighttrains are. Really good value. I did prefer the normal sized one, but its quite alot more expensive of course.
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At least from my experience the JMP-1 is much better than the JCM-1
I remember your thoughts about that on another thread. I agree that the JMP-1 is a pretty serious sounding amp, I'm still thinking about how good it sounded.
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All my low volume needs are met by my RAT modified Blackheart BH5H head. It's really good.
In fact, I even used it at a band rehearsal once, and it was just about loud enough. Sounded ace too.
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i agree with you. if you want power tube distortion at home/bedroom volume you need powerscaling/vvr/attenuator/super low efficiency speaker (or a combination of those). Or super low wattage (under a watt, i'd say) as you said.
I just rely on preamp distortion most of the time. or pedals.
EDIT: nice reviews. :)
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I put some TAD tonebones in my 50w selmer. the triode versions takes it down to 8w, and its a reasonable 8w for home use, but thats a relatively clean selmer. wouldn't crank it full, but get quite a bit of travel on the volume control before i get moaned at
http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_TAD_Equipment_TAD_ToneBone/
Price isn't bad at all! I'll look into it more. I find attenuators pretty expensive, so this may be a good option.
Do you want to borrow some for a week or so, price isnt much, but its a big chunk off the price of a small valve amp
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I put some TAD tonebones in my 50w selmer. the triode versions takes it down to 8w, and its a reasonable 8w for home use, but thats a relatively clean selmer. wouldn't crank it full, but get quite a bit of travel on the volume control before i get moaned at
http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_TAD_Equipment_TAD_ToneBone/
Price isn't bad at all! I'll look into it more. I find attenuators pretty expensive, so this may be a good option.
Do you want to borrow some for a week or so, price isnt much, but its a big chunk off the price of a small valve amp
Yes thanks alot! In fact I would really love to borrow some for a week or so.. if you can spare them?
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Pm me your address again and i will send them over - its the triode version which gives you the most cut in wattage but also changes the character more than the pentodes
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Try the roland cube 40xl, tube amp it's not, but the marshall model is great at low vol & there's other higher gain models available if you fancy. It's still works like an amp rather than a cellphone and its cheap.loads of switching options
for channels & effects, it's really worth trying. Great bedroom amp which would do a pub gig if needed.
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You didn't try the micro terror? It has got some good reviews, but I'm yet to have a go one one. Hopefully soon.
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The hughes and kettner tubemeisters won lots of awards in all the guitar mags this year being the 'best' small amp. You can turn that right down to 1 watt, not sure what wattage it goes up to though. My mates got a mini stack and it sounds very good. It also looks very cool lit up in a dark room :)
I use a Blackstar HT-5 all I can say is im glad ive got some really good fx units and pedals cause on its own I really dont like it! Cant figure out if the bass is too full on or its just downright nasty.
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Nice to hear your thoughts based on actually trying a bunch of these amps. :)
I'd like to get a really good ultra-low-wattage amp some time, strictly for home use since let's face it I'm never going to be gigging anywhere. Currently I have a Tiny Terror (which I like) and one of those "Rat" highly-modded Harley Bentons, which I think is compromised by the 8" speaker.
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Don't forget the minimat III from matamp.
4 models (or 3, not sure), 4W, power scaling, selfbiasing for a bunch of different tubes, hand wired, all for a very decent price
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You didn't try the micro terror? It has got some good reviews, but I'm yet to have a go one one. Hopefully soon.
You are quite right, theres a bunch of small amps I didn't try, just because they didn't have them in stock. The microterror, and blackstar ht5 are a couple of those.
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Try the roland cube 40xl, tube amp it's not, but the marshall model is great at low vol & there's other higher gain models available if you fancy. It's still works like an amp rather than a cellphone and its cheap.loads of switching options
for channels & effects, it's really worth trying. Great bedroom amp which would do a pub gig if needed.
I ignored the modelling based amps, partly to cut down on the number I had to test. I was in the shop for two hours(!) I really want something that sounds as quality as my JMP50 master volume, or at least very close.
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the micro terror is actually pretty loud. It is 20watts.
I've never played a really low wattage amp that has got me really excited. It seems like it's really hard to scale down the tone of a bigger amp into a low wattage one. They way the speakers react to how hard they are driven is probably hard to adjust for. I have a 1986 Bass JMP here, non-master. I can get it to distort running it through an attenuator, but at a certain point just using less attenuation makes the whole thing sound more distorted and less compressed but damn is it loud! I think the difference is the V30's getting pushed at the lower attenuation.
I'd really like to try some of the Bogner international series amps. Specifically the Brixton (15watt) and Panama (4watt)
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If you're looking for plexi-style tones, this comes close at whispervolumes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb4rRQfPqyM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb4rRQfPqyM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSsPorSlfQg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSsPorSlfQg)
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If you're looking for plexi-style tones, this comes close at whispervolumes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb4rRQfPqyM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb4rRQfPqyM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSsPorSlfQg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSsPorSlfQg)
From what you can tell from a youtube video that sounds wicked
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I'd really like to try some of the Bogner international series amps. Specifically the Brixton (15watt) and Panama (4watt)
They've got an amp called Brixton? :?
How bizarre. Nothing about Brixton makes me think of amps or guitars.
(Looks like a cool little amp though!)
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I'd really like to try some of the Bogner international series amps. Specifically the Brixton (15watt) and Panama (4watt)
They've got an amp called Brixton? :?
How bizarre. Nothing about Brixton makes me think of amps or guitars.
(Looks like a cool little amp though!)
Not even electric avenue?
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^
That just makes me think of Eddy Grant! :P
(Who, I concede, does play a bit of guitar)
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I've got a Dual Terror and I think it's ace. Sounds lovely when played in stereo with my JCM800. In fact, it sounds killer on its own too!
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I've got a Dual Terror and I think it's ace. Sounds lovely when played in stereo with my JCM800. In fact, it sounds killer on its own too!
Um, isn't this getting a bit away from the "low wattage" thing?
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:hmm:
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I've got a Dual Terror and I think it's ace. Sounds lovely when played in stereo with my JCM800. In fact, it sounds killer on its own too!
Um, isn't this getting a bit away from the "low wattage" thing?
No.
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It is a small amp which can go down to 7 watts. Not exactly bedroom, but definitely low wattage.
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I've experimented a lot with different setups trying to get a very good sound at low volume levels. IMO the power amp side (low wattage) is only part of the equation.
At least just as important is the flexibility of the preamp and the cabined/speakers.
Preamp
I feel the more flexibility/gain/EQ the preamp offers, the better it will work, especially for high gain where the most gain is naturally made in the preamp. This is why a 5150 120-Watt head can be a better bedroom choice than a Marshall Class 5, depending on how important gain is for you. I had a 5150 and was genuinely surprised how good it worked.
Cabinet/speakers
Huge part, totally overlooked. Most speakers need a certain "push" from the power amp to sound proper/right. A lot of fizziness in gain often comes from the speakers in low volume setttings. I've experimented a bit and for home use I use a small 1x10" cab with a fairly low sensitivity rating, so I have to turn up the power amp a bit more. It works far better than my 2x12" or even my 1x12" cab (with a high power speaker). But in the "real world", i.e. on stage, the 2x12" will kill the 1x10" cab of course.
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I loved the JMP1 combo I tried in Guitar Guitar. It's the only one of the Marshall Anniversary amps I liked (and I liked it a lot). Really nice tone to the combo. Just a bit too much money for me to buy it on a whim though.
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I think the JMP1 is the one which appeals to me most. It is expensive, though, as you say.
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Same here on the JMP1... although I was thinking "how expensive can it be, boys?"
Just checked... OWCH!
OK, I don't think I'll be getting one :lol:
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I've experimented a lot with different setups trying to get a very good sound at low volume levels. IMO the power amp side (low wattage) is only part of the equation.
At least just as important is the flexibility of the preamp and the cabined/speakers.
Preamp
I feel the more flexibility/gain/EQ the preamp offers, the better it will work, especially for high gain where the most gain is naturally made in the preamp. This is why a 5150 120-Watt head can be a better bedroom choice than a Marshall Class 5, depending on how important gain is for you. I had a 5150 and was genuinely surprised how good it worked.
Cabinet/speakers
Huge part, totally overlooked. Most speakers need a certain "push" from the power amp to sound proper/right. A lot of fizziness in gain often comes from the speakers in low volume setttings. I've experimented a bit and for home use I use a small 1x10" cab with a fairly low sensitivity rating, so I have to turn up the power amp a bit more. It works far better than my 2x12" or even my 1x12" cab (with a high power speaker). But in the "real world", i.e. on stage, the 2x12" will kill the 1x10" cab of course.
agreed
if you want power amp distortion then you do, to be fair, need low wattage- or some form of power scaling/attenuation/low efficiency speaker or the like (though it's also worth bearing in mind that a single-ended 5 watter won't really sound the same as a 100 watt tube amp up full, either).
But if you're ok with preamp distortion higher wattage amps often sound better than low wattage amps. there's no guarantee and you really have to try them to see which ones do sound good turned down... but when you find them it's great.
and not to bang on about this or repeat myself ad nauseum, but it's probably also worth pointing out how loud a 5 watter is through normal-efficiency guitar speakers- you're talking around the 105dB mark, maybe more. that's loud in a small enclosed space. a 100 watter might not sound amazing at whisper volume, but a 5 watter cranked is absolutely not whisper volume either :lol: Any of my high gain high wattage amps are sounding really good (IMO) long before they hit 105dB.
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Same here on the JMP1... although I was thinking "how expensive can it be, boys?"
Just checked... OWCH!
OK, I don't think I'll be getting one :lol:
I can see myself caving in and buying one.... but not just now, I've spent too much "GAS money" in the last few months. I'm not exactly skint (thankfully), but I have got spending fatigue!
Only thing is, they're not going to be available for long, are they?
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Only thing is, they're not going to be available for long, are they?
:lol: My thought process earlier included this very sentence...
Luckily, though, it didn't have as much power over me as it might have done a couple of years ago.
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I'm not exactly sure what their gameplan is with these. I've been hearing rumors that they will put them in production, that this is it, and that there will also be a Slash AFD 1 watt or 5 watt head/combo, which really tickles my fancy as I love the AFD100.
Anyhow, I'd say wait until NAMM comes around to see what Marshall's gonna do. If they put them out again, they will be lower priced I'm guessing. If they don't, then I'd hop on ones on eBay very quickly while they're still routinely going for around $600, maybe cheaper. As we all know with these sellers, if they find out something makes their item more rare, they'll charge $6,000 instead of $600!
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Presumably if they start making "unlimited" production versions, they'll be made in China or somewhere rather than the UK (do Marshall do that? I must confess to complete ignorance here....)
But they'd certainly be cheaper, as you say.
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Marshall do already produce some stuff in China, including some tube stuff I think.
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Marshall do already produce some stuff in China, including some tube stuff I think.
And the new DSL's. AFAIK that's all they outsource for, and maybe some of their budget amps like Haze, MG, etc.
On the other hand, I can't wait to see what they bring out for NAMM! Being a big Marshall guy, I've been waiting to see their big 50th Anniversary amp come out for a while now!
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If they put them out again, they will be lower priced I'm guessing. If they don't, then I'd hop on ones on eBay very quickly while they're still routinely going for around $600, maybe cheaper.
Yep, my reasoning was: if they do stay limited, and if I end up regreting not getting one, then I'll buy the one that Philly will be trying to sell at a huge loss in Seconds Out...
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If they do reissue Chinese versions of the Marshall 1watts, you can be sure they'll use cheaper components to preserve the value of the Bletchley ones. The UK ones apparently have half decent transformers in them for example.
Anyway, my overpriced 1w collectors item Marshall has arrived this morning so we will see.
The JMP1 is a great sounding amp by the way, proper toney!
I remember HTH on this very forum saying a good sounding 1w amp would take just as much development effort as a 100w, but of course since its seen as more of a practice amp, people aren't willing to pay more.
I still do think those 200quid Laney cub heads sounded pretty good, but definitely you can hear the difference with the 1w Marshalls.
Having said that I have just brought an amp (the 80s version) that I haven't ever heard, so it is a bit of a risk, but I think a calculated one. Also there was a decent Thomann b-stock discount, so lets see if I think its worth it later when I plug it in.
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If they put them out again, they will be lower priced I'm guessing. If they don't, then I'd hop on ones on eBay very quickly while they're still routinely going for around $600, maybe cheaper.
Yep, my reasoning was: if they do stay limited, and if I end up regreting not getting one, then I'll buy the one that Philly will be trying to sell at a huge loss in Seconds Out...
:lol: I only make losses due to market forces, it's not a deliberate strategy...... although sometimes it feels like it.
Anyway, sounds like I might be able to make a profit if I held on to it (....nah, never happen!)
Interested to read your review later, gwEm!
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some of the non-UK marshall stuff is made in vietnam, isn't it? Or did I make that up? :lol:
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some of the non-UK marshall stuff is made in vietnam, isn't it? Or did I make that up? :lol:
Yep!
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is that "yep!" to "I made it up", or "yep!" to "they're made in vietnam"?
:lol:
Sorry :oops:
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Some are made in Vietnam :)
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is that "yep!" to "I made it up", or "yep!" to "they're made in vietnam"?
:lol:
Sorry :oops:
Sorry, should have specified... Vietnam is their main source outside of England AFAIK.
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thanks :) that's what i figured but i thought it was better to be sure :lol:
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how about the jca20? I usually hate el84's, but that one sounds pretty good through celestion v30's
I paid like US$250 new and that's one hard to beat price for an amp with 3 x 12ax7 and 2 x el84, decent headshell and tolex and relatively big transformers
still needs a bit of volume to sound GOOD, but I'd take it over a tiny terror or blackstar any day
I also like the dynamics... it cleans up pretty well for a single channel medium/high gainer
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I've tried to not say anything about this topic. In fact I've typed something 4 times already since I first saw this topic and deleted it.
I understand using these low watt amps in your bedroom. They sound great to record with, and to use in the house so the wife doesn't want to toss you out. They don't sound great with a live band. Too small sounding... Sorry, but just not a fan of low watt amps. They sound too fizzy for me. Its just my opinion.....Its not the sound I'm after or like.
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There are other ways to make use of these kinds of amps, and their size and ability to get the crunch we all love that's only accessible through cooking an amps power section make them really useful for all uses. I for one am getting a device from Bad Cat called the Unleash later this week that acts as not only an attenuator for my big amp, but as a re-amper for my 1 watter that I can run through my 4x12 with the same results.
The main reason I got mine was that I felt I needed a backup/practice amp that sounded somewhat similar to my 100 watter. Getting another full sized head would be extremely impractical, and this was a cool substitute for that.
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There are other ways to make use of these kinds of amps, and their size and ability to get the crunch we all love that's only accessible through cooking an amps power section make them really useful for all uses. I for one am getting a device from Bad Cat called the Unleash later this week that acts as not only an attenuator for my big amp, but as a re-amper for my 1 watter that I can run through my 4x12 with the same results.
The main reason I got mine was that I felt I needed a backup/practice amp that sounded somewhat similar to my 100 watter. Getting another full sized head would be extremely impractical, and this was a cool substitute for that.
I think the low watt amps are great for the reasons you stated......Backstage/backup/practice amp. I'm not a fan of using them live with a band. :band4:
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Well obviously unless you have some sort of reamping device it will 100% either sound too thin and fizzy or not loud enough. Even mic'ing one of the combos or hooking it up to an extension cab would never warrant results good enough for gig use. I agree with you there :D
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*&%(^$#%*%!!!! The AFD-5 is real!
http://www.guitarhangar.com/marshall-sl-5-slash-signature-amplifier.html (http://www.guitarhangar.com/marshall-sl-5-slash-signature-amplifier.html)
2 channels, full EQ and presence, and reverb! I might have to sell a JMP-1. Interested Philly?
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I might be - have you got the head or combo?
(I've just remembered, you're in the USA aren't you? D'oh! :lol: )
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Wow. Really interested in that mini AFD amp! Wonder what the quality is like though, didn't the bigger versions have loads of problems?
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some people reported problems with the electronic power attenuation on the AFD100, which isn't on the new 5 watter. i've had no issues with mine, which i've had about a year. Twinfan had one, and he had an issue with the EPA, but if i remember rightly it was tracked down to power fluctuation in his domestic supply, which seemingly can affect the epa, especially at lower settings.
even though i have the AFD100, i find myself very interested in this 5 watter. it would make a very nice replacement for the DSL201 i've been using as a portable amp
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I might be - have you got the head or combo?
(I've just remembered, you're in the USA aren't you? D'oh! :lol: )
I am in the US, but I wouldn't find it a problem to ship it to you. I've got the combo, found it more practical.
I'm not 100% sold on the new AFD amp though, so don't get your hopes up too much!