Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: indysmith on February 26, 2006, 12:27:01 PM

Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: indysmith on February 26, 2006, 12:27:01 PM
Alright, I have my jcm800, and it is actually amazing for what i generally use it for, it sounds INCREDIBLE - still got silly grin factor there. But what if i want to get more modern tones out of it sometimes? It's a 2x12 open back combo - perhaps bass is being lost out the back there? I have a mesa V-Twin preamp, but it isn't exactly turning the amp in a fire-breathing Recto (i know its not supposed to but still...). I really like the tone of the jcm800 with the V-Twin, and i use a lot. However it still sounds like a hot-rodded British amp. Sometimes if i wanna go all-out american-flavour modern metal i can't - i realise i'm never gonna get there exactly because of the circuit, valves etc. however, is there an overdrive, or cab, or e.q. or something i can use to get me in the ballpark? Also i'm thinking maybe THD yellow jackets could help me out - although i think they're a bit expensive arent they? thanks
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: Skybone on February 26, 2006, 12:36:48 PM
Mine has a pair of 5881's in it, instead of the usual EL34's for some reason, and they give quite a bright sound, not exactly "modern", but it's not your "normal" Marshall tone. Maybe next time you change the power valves, try putting a different power valve type in there, a lot of Mesa amps use 6L6's don't they?

Also, changing your pre-amp valves for something more "modern" will shape the tone as well. I bought some Sovtek 12AX7 WC's from HotRox, which gave the amp a very "modern" tone (to my ears anyway), which I wasn't after, so I replaced v 3 with an older ECC83M to give it that older sounding vibe. Find out what valves they use in the V-Twin from stock and put some of them in.

Just a thought...
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: Twinfan on February 26, 2006, 04:55:40 PM
I'm having virtually the same dilemma with my JTM60 at the moment.

I think the only option is to get a different amp.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: Ratrod on February 26, 2006, 04:56:31 PM
Try the MXR Zakk Wylde overdrive.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: Skybone on February 26, 2006, 05:29:56 PM
I tried one Ratty, and I thought it was too noisy even for an OD. Given that it's the ZW signature model, it doesn't have that "rip your face off" aggressive tone you'd expect it to have, even when the gain is maxed.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: indysmith on February 26, 2006, 10:54:17 PM
Quote from: Ratrod
Try the MXR Zakk Wylde overdrive.

I really should try it out actually - hear a lot of good things about it - kinda seems to be about what i'm looking for. I read something about the MXR kerry king E.Q saying that it could turn ur low-gain vintage amp into a fire-breathing metal monster. anyone tried one? I'd like to have a go... I've been playing around a bit today with the v-twin, I've tried scooping the mids out a bit, which (in the bedroom) makes it sound a bit more metallica, especially if i put on the bass boost of the hotplate. Still - i'm not sure that what i want - its really rather hollow. I guess i'm after a Killswitch Engage kind of sound. I've got a mahognay body ibanez with a Nailbomb in the bridge...
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: maliciousteve on February 26, 2006, 11:12:51 PM
I'd say go with an ENGL Screamer. Those things are really really versatile. Sparkly cleans to blues to nut crushing metal. Plus they're pretty cheap too.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: indysmith on February 26, 2006, 11:17:01 PM
Quote from: maliciousteve
I'd say go with an ENGL Screamer. Those things are really really versatile. Sparkly cleans to blues to nut crushing metal. Plus they're pretty cheap too.

Pretty cheap to a 16 year old is my lunch at school.
I don't want a new amp! i love screamers; but i don't want one all the time! i just want to get some moderner sounds out of my amp every so often. i dont want to tunr my amp permanently into anything angry and agressive, nor do i want to get rid of it. i must emphasise my JCM800 sounds PERFECT for pretty much everything i play. Sometimes i just crave a bit o'metal...
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: maliciousteve on February 26, 2006, 11:21:07 PM
:lol:  calm down. The best thing to do in that case is to get some kind of E.Q. The MXR's seem to be alot of peoples favourites.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: indysmith on February 26, 2006, 11:23:03 PM
Quote from: maliciousteve
:lol:  calm down. The best thing to do in that case is to get some kind of E.Q. The MXR's seem to be alot of peoples favourites.

haha sorry man!!! i'm very protective over my amp because it is perfect... :P yeah i think i'll have to experiment with an E.Q if they can make as much difference as i've heard.. thanks dude
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: tewboss on February 27, 2006, 12:19:13 AM
I don't think you will ever get the KSE tone from a JCM800. I appreciate what sound you are after (as I would like that sound as well), but the nearest you would get is having it modified to Splawn specs and that isn't cheap.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: TwilightOdyssey on February 27, 2006, 01:12:58 AM
Can't do it.
If you want an amp that straddles the modern/classic fence pretty well, you should look into a Diezel VH-4.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: Ratrod on February 27, 2006, 12:42:43 PM
I tried my mate's V-twin a couple of times. It sounds nice but won't make your amp sound like a recto. It's a very tweedy, bluesy piece of kit. My Tube Factor gets alot closer to the Recto sound but it's too British sounding to actually nail it.

I have heard good thing about the Tech 21 SansAmp Tri-AC.

http://www.tech21nyc.com/triac.html

Check the sample: http://www.tech21nyc.com/sounds/triac_sounds/TRIAC-Metal.mp3
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: gwEm on February 27, 2006, 01:02:35 PM
+1

Using a sans-amp as a distortion pedal changes the character of my amp a huge amount. I dont have the Tri-Ac but the GT2... But I understand the tri-ac is like 3 GT2s in 1 pedal.

Obviously, they're really nice direct pedals too... i had my gt2 since years and cant imagine to be without it.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: Muttley on February 27, 2006, 01:16:22 PM
Bung a Tube Screamer stomp box in front of it.  That's the way a lot of the classic metal sounds were made in the 90s, and I know Andy Sneap (ex-Sabbat) still uses JCM800's in his production work, so they can obviously still cut it.  :)

I borrowed a mate's JCM800 and 4x12 once, great amps.  :)

Muttley
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: Bainzy on February 27, 2006, 01:38:06 PM
You could add an extra tube gain stage inside the amp - insert one half of the triode into the signal path so it's switchable in and out, and then parallel that half of the triode with the other so you've got 2 gain stages. That'd give you way more gain than you'd need. Parallel gain stages is how Mesa's get that high gain sound.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: maliciousteve on February 27, 2006, 03:35:10 PM
Quote from: Bainzy
You could add an extra tube gain stage inside the amp - insert one half of the triode into the signal path so it's switchable in and out, and then parallel that half of the triode with the other so you've got 2 gain stages. That'd give you way more gain than you'd need. Parallel gain stages is how Mesa's get that high gain sound.


I think Dino (Ex-fear Factory) done the same thing to his JCM800 (or 900) heads before he used Line 6. He got a great tone from doing that
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: indysmith on February 27, 2006, 07:22:23 PM
Quote from: maliciousteve
Quote from: Bainzy
You could add an extra tube gain stage inside the amp - insert one half of the triode into the signal path so it's switchable in and out, and then parallel that half of the triode with the other so you've got 2 gain stages. That'd give you way more gain than you'd need. Parallel gain stages is how Mesa's get that high gain sound.


I think Dino (Ex-fear Factory) done the same thing to his JCM800 (or 900) heads before he used Line 6. He got a great tone from doing that


I'm sure it'd work well, but i dont want to/know how to butcher the amp!

I think the thing to do is to try a beastly overdrive and an e.q. i might ask around - see if my friends have any of this gear that they could lend me. buncha metallers they are - i'm bound to find someone!
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: _tom_ on February 27, 2006, 08:36:16 PM
Get a V-Amp 2 and run that into the FX return/poweramp in like me   :P I've been getting some seriously phat tones tonight from that.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: sambo on February 27, 2006, 08:39:46 PM
just get a zoom ps-04 (like ME)... thats gonna be my advice to everyone with anyone question about tone from now on... even though it probably wont help them at all as its a pretty worthless piece of kit...
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: HJM on February 27, 2006, 08:40:46 PM
A boost from an OD pedal 6550 valves and a closed back extension cab will be as close as you can get.

The 6550s really help the bass out a lot.

Other than that use the VTwin direct into the power stage of the JCM, you then loose the problem of the two preamps interacting with each other!
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: indysmith on February 27, 2006, 10:06:40 PM
Quote from: HJM
Other than that use the VTwin direct into the power stage of the JCM, you then loose the problem of the two preamps interacting with each other!

uhhh how?? lol - theres no effects loops or anything
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: Tin(it)us on February 27, 2006, 10:29:45 PM
The speakers also do alot for tone shaping. As well as the suggestion to get a closed cab for more bass response you might want to try different speakers too. For example I recently read that Zakk Wylde was much more pleased with his sound after his blown-up Celestions in a 4x12 cab were changed to the only thing the shop he went to had in stock, which were IIRC 200W 12" PA speakers. Maybe other type Celestions or another brand higher W and efficiency speakers will be better suited to your taste, and when you use a 2x12 closed back ext cab for them you won't have to butcher the amp.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: HJM on February 28, 2006, 08:06:45 AM
Quote from: indysmith
Quote from: HJM
Other than that use the VTwin direct into the power stage of the JCM, you then loose the problem of the two preamps interacting with each other!

uhhh how?? lol - theres no effects loops or anything

Just fit one - a simple non buffered one is easy, although you loose a little tone, if you're using a different preamp like the VTwin it will work fine.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: HJM on February 28, 2006, 08:08:18 AM
Quote from: Tin(it)us
The speakers also do alot for tone shaping. As well as the suggestion to get a closed cab for more bass response you might want to try different speakers too. For example I recently read that Zakk Wylde was much more pleased with his sound after his blown-up Celestions in a 4x12 cab were changed to the only thing the shop he went to had in stock, which were IIRC 200W 12" PA speakers. Maybe other type Celestions or another brand higher W and efficiency speakers will be better suited to your taste, and when you use a 2x12 closed back ext cab for them you won't have to butcher the amp.


Good idea....how about Vintage 30s - they've got a nice modern edge to the midrange.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: indysmith on February 28, 2006, 05:06:34 PM
Yeah i'd definately considered V-30's. might not be a bad idea :lol:
Just fit one HJM!?! its not that easy... :? i wouldnt know where to start, haha. Keep in mind i'm a 16 year old kid that knows nothing about electronics... anyone know of anyone that could put one in for me, for a reasonable price? - could i get a bypassable one?
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: tewboss on February 28, 2006, 06:15:59 PM
Don't get an effects loop done cheaply because there are loads of old JCM800's out there that have been bar-stewardised in the 80's.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: willo on February 28, 2006, 07:10:51 PM
Any idea how they got the sounds on the Velvet Revolver album? They sound relatively modern, yet I'm pretty sure Slash is still using his JCM800's & Jubilees. Could be Kushner, could just be the production, but I really dig some of the tones on that album.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: _tom_ on February 28, 2006, 07:31:58 PM
Yeah I like alot of the tones on Contraband (although their live tone is better ;) ). Dave uses a Bogner head of some kind I think, which would explain the modern-ness.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: indysmith on February 28, 2006, 10:23:20 PM
What about just putting a Keeley-modded MT-2twilightzone pedal in front of the low-gain input? that'd give it a mighty kick up the arse surely? I realise it probably won't nail the sound i'm looking for, but surely it couldnt sound too bad just for those times wen i want a laugh Scaring the neighbours...?
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: donovan.x on February 28, 2006, 10:31:21 PM
Get a PODxt !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink:  8)  :lol:
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: indysmith on February 28, 2006, 10:37:11 PM
dude... no. lol. I want it to sound at least a little bit convincing... No digital stuff allowed
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: donovan.x on February 28, 2006, 10:45:44 PM
I think that it is almost impossible to have a genuine"Ultimate amp", I always have this problem, I am always adding, chopping, selling, dealing  equipment just to satisfy my tonal desires!!! It drives you mad!! Infact I was at the same level with My DSL and V-twin, because I was hearing all these sounds and thinking, Time for a swap??? But you just cant win.
You have got a really cool set-up that has a fair bit of versatility, I think that next thing has to be a second amp, expensive i know but where will you quest stop otherwise!!!
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: indysmith on February 28, 2006, 10:53:05 PM
Quote from: donovanx
I think that it is almost impossible to have a genuine"Ultimate amp", I always have this problem, I am always adding, chopping, selling, dealing  equipment just to satisfie my tonal desires!!! It drives you mad!! Infact I was at the same level with My DSL and V-twin, because I was hearing all these sounds and thinking, Time for a swap??? But you just cant win.
You have got a really cool set-up that has a fair bit of versatility, I think that next thing has to be a second amp, expensive i know but where will you quest stop otherwise!!!

Possibly the most sensible thing I've heard all day. Thanks man
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: donovan.x on February 28, 2006, 11:21:48 PM
:wink:
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: sambo on February 28, 2006, 11:25:39 PM
not quite as sensible as this though:


The perceived mistakes were designed to authenticate those who will reveal the answers, it is not advised to pursue the prize through these aspects.
Title: Modern Tones from an Old JCM800?
Post by: marmoset on March 01, 2006, 05:26:36 PM
Errr, yes. Foolish is the donkey which eats its own hat.

But seriously, I think that its part of human nature to constantly try to improve things, whether its the inner workings of society or guitar tone  :)