Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Stevepage on January 08, 2013, 07:19:44 PM
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Well today I've come to the heartbreaking conclusion that I probably never will make a decent living from playing guitar.
I'm a 26 year old married man who has a full time job in garden maintenance. I've been devoted to guitar since I started playing at 11 years old. Every single day my life has been about guitar or music in some way but due to being the person I am I've never really gotten very far in terms of a music career.
I can be pretty shy when it comes to meeting new people which hindered me when it came to networking with other musicians, especially musicians who didn't play the same style of music I tend to gravitate towards (metal generally even though I love styles like Jazz and Blues too).
Since I proposed to my wife 2 years ago I came to the realization that I can't provide food, shelter or a decent standard of living on hopes of one day "maybe" getting noticed some how but I didn't want to think like that as I saw it as giving up on my dreams.
However today I had a conversation with my father-in law about him helping me out with starting up my own garden maintenance business and how I could potentially make decent money and then, like a door slammed in the face I realized that playing guitar is not going to do provide me with what I need. I have to accept that while people think I'm talented at what I do, it's not going to make me money.
Things have moved on from the dream I believed in when I was a kid and even though people do make it to be famous or have a great career as a guitarist, it's not something every one can do regardless if they think they can. The music business is very very different now days.
I know I'm going a bit guys and this may even be a bit whiney :lol: But I had to get it off my chest to people who love music and guitars as much as I do.
I will always have that glimmer of hope and will continue to make my own music, be it on my own or even in a band but, it's not something that I will put first or drop everything and everyone for, unless it's an opportunity that will provide me with every thing I will need.
I'm kinda sad but also have optimism for the future and will continue to be devoted to becoming a better player as nothing gives me greater pleasure, it's not something I'm prepared to give up as it's part of who I am and always will be.
So yeah, I'm going on a bit now :lol: So if you need a gardener who also loves guitars give me a shout :lol:
Any of you guys been through this?
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Fair play for making the mature decision,far too many people seem to think that they are somehow entitled to having their wildest dreams come true and then end up being bitter arse holes when they don't.
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Yep, been there and everything you have written is something I would have said when I too had that realisation at around the same age. I have a few close shaves with success and I kept my hand in with songwriting but it was never meant to be and hence I ended up in various covers bands. But I have had a ball along the way, made some great lifelong mates and knowing my addictive personality it is probably just as well that i took the path that I did. One thing is true-I am a better musician than I have derive a lot of pleasure from it. So keep at it but your family comes first-nothing else is as important and in time that is where you find your fulfillment.
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A wise decision, Sir. Have guitar playing as your hobby - never lose that - and enjoy every moment of it when you get the chance to :)
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We've all been there, it took me till I was 28 to realise it and a big heap of debt (£18k) on top which I only paid off November gone.
Would I do things differently? - hindsight is the most amazing thing, so yeah, there are things I'd go back and change (like wasting time and money on an education). However, not the part that involved making music, those are the good memories that money can't buy.
The weird thing about music is that earning money from it 'feels' different - maybe its just me. Every time I play a charity gig (i.e. for a good cause with no fee given to the band) it just feels better and more pure (at the risk of sounding poncey).
Its a weird relationship we have with music and guitars though - if I could wipe the slate clean, owe nothing to nobody and get by as a gigging musician, I'd do it tomorrow.
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Whilst not *exactly* the same, I had a similar thing a few years ago when I had to give up studio/sound engineering work and get a proper job :lol: :roll:
I did music at college but before that I did music workshops and night school classes in recording and sound engineering; I've been doing it almost as long as I've been playing guitar and gigging.
I got in with a local council run music project after I'd finished my music qualifications through an old guitar teacher of mine and was able to get a voluntary post at their studio whilst working a fulltime job in a warehouse. It wasn't Abbey Road or anything but it was good :D I met alot of great people and learnt alot, as well as getting alot of great experience. I was basically an unpaid engineer/lackey/gofer, the hours were pretty long but I loved being around the people, bands and the general situation. As music was my main/only hobby, still is for the most part, it was very enjoyable.
After 18months of this I saved up enough money to be able to quit the warehouse job and go 'fulltime self employed' at the studio. That being that I was on the councils payroll as a sound engineer for any sessions I was able to get, and was also free to do whatever else I wanted to make ends meet money wise. I did some guitar teching and childrens music tutoring here and there to top my wages up and it was great, hard work but great :D I also got to use the studio free of charge and did half of my bands album there over Christmas week off.
Eventually the work at the studio started to dry up and there wasn't enough work to go around the 3 or 4 engineers that the studio kept on their books
I had to make the decision to leave to get something more stable money wise, and ended up doing admin for a utilities firm. I'm still here, although at a different company now, 6 years later and I still find it a bit soul destroying every day to know that I (more or less to an extent) had the job I wanted and had to give it up.
Sorry to shatter the good mood :lol:
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Reality is the domain of the wise 8).
Good look with your new project. I've been a tree surgeon for 25 yrs always playing guitar for fun & sometimes money. I'm now pretty much a full time gardener. It's not a dull job and if
as well as maintenance one can learn about plants it becomes very creative.
When i reflect , i was never a guitarist (my dream) but always a gardener which suits my nature
much more.
I look after a private estate in France now and when not in the garden i can blast my guitar as i please 'cause there's no neighbours. :lol:
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Say it ain't so!
The smartest ones in the music biz are the ones who get out before it's too late. Probably not a terrible decision on your part, however it is a bit like finding out for the first time Santa isn't real. Kinda sucks, sorry brother.
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Hi Steve - it sure is a tough realisation and can feel disappointing at the time.
But stick with your love of guitar as the other chaps have said and allow yourself to feel just as precious about your playing time and love of the subject.
In some ways not having to make a living from it means you can enjoy it more as a pure art-form rather than having "commercial pressures" always forcing you to compromise on how you'd really want to enjoy your instrument.
Now an interesting point I see from within the walls of my business.
I deal every day with players who love guitar.
The saddest thing is the guys who can afford to have me do set-ups and re-frets or even build them a kick ass guitar over a period of time are not often the working musicians (usually they seem not even able to afford new strings), it's the guys who have regular jobs - whether they are self employed or work for someone else who often have enough money to indulge their passions.
It seems ironic at times but reflects that there really isn't much money for the majority of musicians to be able to do it full time.
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Now that you let go the idea of being a moneymaking pro musician, it might just happen in the future. Somethings they do if you don't chase it, but go with the flow. For now, a good decision to build up your business. Wish you all the luck!
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That wasn't whiney at all! Very interesting to read, and in some ways I can relate to it, but probably less than the other guys.... I've always known I was too talentless and/or lazy to make a living out of music, so I never attempted to (I still kind of wish I'd got into guitar building as a career, although I'm well aware that's also a tough way to earn a reasonable living).
I think you're making the right decision. I don't see anything wrong or contradictory about having some kind of career whilst also pursuing an interest in music (or writing, painting, filmmaking, whatever...). To me it demonstrates a work ethic, a sense of realism and responsibility which I think is admirable. And it doesn't mean giving up on your dreams.
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The best of luck in your buisness and keep on rocking!
I am very interrested to see how your playing develops without that weight, I actually believe when you look back at this in one or two years you will think it was the best decision you purely as a player ever made.
And generally +1 to what Feline said.
I am still very young, not even having gone to college yet and I know about not having money or a set future (if I had at least the later I would have that strat in my home by now). Thing is I really appreciate not having a lot of money for guitar things. I actually have struck a pretty good balance between I can afford some things (like BKPs from time to time or my HW Tiny Terror and my HW marshall cab after saving a couple of months), but I really have to put though into things I get.
But most importantly I also have to make things I have acess to work, which is the greatest thing anyone doing anything with sound can learn imho.
This lead me to great sounds, DIY pedals and so many great things. If you can make a good sound on a budget, you can make it on anything.
One day I will treat myself to a custom Feline too (I already got a second hand one though through great luck) and I am confident, nearly know that I can get a better sound out of a given equipment than most people can, cause I have learned to work the highs and lows. Now if my playing would keep up...
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A wise decision, Sir. Have guitar playing as your hobby - never lose that - and enjoy every moment of it when you get the chance to :)
Absolutely. Think how your life would suck if that thing that you love became mundane and the thing you had to do to pay the mortgage.
Juggling the needs of a family with a 100 watt Marshall is always difficult. Like you, I've been playing since my teens, and I'm now 41 - I joined my first "decent" band at 40!
Mistresses are always more fun than wives...
;)
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I have a friend who is one of the best and most naturally talented drivers I've ever had the pleasure of being driven around a racetrack by (and I've been in with some very talented people). Certainly when he was younger he'd could have had a very successful career as a racing driver. Were it not for the main thing that stops drivers with talent getting noticed. Money. The sad reality in his case was that he could not afford to race and without that you're going nowhere. He ended up in IT and plays with race cars with me these days (we split the costs in two).
In some respects this isn't a bad thing. You get to still enjoy doing what you love and it not being your career means you don't ruin it. Of course you don't get to do it as much. But sadly that's life.
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Absolutely. Think how your life would suck if that thing that you love became mundane and the thing you had to do to pay the mortgage.
that's what i always wonder. While it'd be awesome for your job to be something you love doing, on the other hand merely by dint of it being a job it can suck a fair bit of the fun out of it. you could probably make a decent argument for doing a job which you don't loathe (i.e. you can do it without wanting to top yourself at the end of every day and quite enjoy it) but which isn't one of your main hobbies either. And obviously which is pretty secure and reasonably well-paid too. and which lets you still do your hobbies in your spare time.
Which sounds like what you're doing.
that's not to say that's the only way to do it, it's one of those things that there's more than one right answer, and the right answer will be different for every individual.
good luck :)
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you could probably make a decent argument for doing a job which you don't loathe (i.e. you can do it without wanting to top yourself at the end of every day and quite enjoy it) but which isn't one of your main hobbies either. And obviously which is pretty secure and reasonably well-paid too. and which lets you still do your hobbies in your spare time.
I'm kind of doing this and it's good but work still does become a bit of a chore especially on the slower shifts. Still hoping for something a bit more exciting to come along but things are working out ok so far :)
I think I realised I'd probably never "make it" when I was about 18. Mainly because of a lack of good local musicians other than guitarists! Still trying to get a band going this year though because I reckon with a good singer we could actually make at least one decent album with everything I've written helped by the input of other musicians!
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its a tough one, i never thought that i would ever earn proper money as a musician.. except maybe very early on when i was scr@ping it by as a drum'n'bass DJ.
so for me, its always been for fun, and what great fun it is too! as others have said you might even enjoy your playing and gigs more now the pressures off.
theres nothing like writing a few new tunes, or drinking deep from the goblet of rock on stage. in a way, if you like that stuff, then the money isn't important at all.
a bit of post-gig interest from the young ladies is always good for the confidence too, and you don't need to get paid for that either!
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its a tough one, i never thought that i would ever earn proper money as a musician.. except maybe very early on when i was scr@ping it by as a drum'n'bass DJ.
so for me, its always been for fun, and what great fun it is too! as others have said you might even enjoy your playing and gigs more now the pressures off.
theres nothing like writing a few new tunes, or drinking deep from the goblet of rock on stage. in a way, if you like that stuff, then the money isn't important at all.
a bit of post-gig interest from the young ladies is always good for the confidence too, and you don't need to get paid for that either!
One of the lucky few!
I like your new profile pic by the way. Great action shot!
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I'm kind of doing this and it's good but work still does become a bit of a chore especially on the slower shifts. Still hoping for something a bit more exciting to come along but things are working out ok so far :)
oh yeah i mean there are negative aspects to everything.
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When I was 18 I went on a tour of the US Forces bases in Germany for 3 months and we were then returning with the chance of supporting Sweet on their UK tour (this was back in 1972). I thought that I was going to make money out of music but then the reality hit, the band split because 3 months on minimum wage and living out of the van brings out all the personality differences. I had to get a real job and then I played in a few semi-pro & cover bands. I worked in music retail for about 3 years, which let me see what my life would be like if I didn't change (no offence meant to anyone who is making their living from music, but some of the guys who worked the working men's club circuits for a living back then would put anyone off!). So I finally pulled my finger out and got a real career in IT.
I haven't lost interest in playing and through the years have been lucky enough to pick up a lot of nice gear. However as I have advanced in my job I have lost the time I used to have to play. With the damage that hurricane Sandy caused on the house and some gear, I haven't played much since last October. However I still love to play and once we get the house in a better state I'll be setting up a bigger and better room to do some recording and playing in. I still have the dream alive that I could go back out an play, so don't give it up at all.
btw. don't give up on the ladies of the road either :)
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I know your pain, Steve. Although I keep trying to write songs and record them in my own spare time, I currently hold two full-time jobs just to try and get my debts paid off. I'm 31 so the record deal ship had already sailed probably five or six years ago. Music is something I do for enjoyment now, but there is always still that hope that when I finally do release my E.P (followed by my album the year after) that people will buy it and enjoy it.
I will release it, that is still happening, but I doubt anything big will come of it, no matter how much I dream of supporting Devin Townsend on a UK tour! :lol:
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Unfortunately, very very few people make money from being able to play guitar. Obviously I'm omitting teaching in this, but that's a different story.
Being a session musician is often a very far cry from what your expectations may be. Studio work is not a glamorous job, there is a lot of waiting around for artists to arrive (talking in a 'big' studio here, with chart records), and then when you have to record, you cannot have a dozen takes at something, you have to be spot on. d there's not really any sight of tabs, you might get the names of the chords if you're lucky, and you have to know them. There are a handful of musicians who can make a living, but it's not really the musicians you need to know, it's the producers and the managers who book the work!
The music industry really isn't the place I would advise anyone to aspire to work in, there is so little reward for your efforts at the top, and no money below that. It is a shame that is the situation, but if I were you Steve, I'd be pleased with myself for figuring it out before you get into financial trouble.
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Sorry to hear that Steve. Things don't sound that bad for you. A new wife and a good father in law in a business who is willing to teach and pay you. They're good things.
I know the reality of not achieving your dream hurts. One day it will stop. As 38th said. Family is more important.
I had my dream of not making a full time living as a photographer broken by reality at 35. After a few years of making a bit of money from it, I had to face up to the fact that it wasn't enough to live on. I got a job as a brickies labourer and that was a wake up call but it lead into other things.
As the other have said you can still be in a band. Function bands is where the dough is. I'd jump at the chance to do that now for a bit of extra.
Good luck :-)
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I dont know that its a bad thing. Greener grass and all that. I did production as my only thing for 2 years, and in the end I didnt like making a passion in life into something that I had to depend on for income. It may seem somewhat churlish to have had a crack at that whip and after doing it, say 'maybe you wouldnt like it anyway', but its a distinct possibility.
The alleviation of concern as to where next months rent will come from from having a regular job is not to be sniffed at either. Dont get me wrong, I'm not a mercenary person and to me money only has the value of what I can do with it, but one of those things is stay off the streets, which is decidedly non-trivial.
I have no one to support but myself, so with a family I can only imagine thats amplified massively, and a regular job is very nearly a must. I think in this day and age you have to be extremely lucky to get to do something artistic as a primary source of income, and you have to be able to take a lot of rough with the smooth for it, its not for everyone.
I'm one week into my first day job in 2 years, and frankly its a relief. I wouldnt trade those 2 years for anything, and I regret nothing; I'm glad I did it, but I very much doubt I would do it again. I now get to keep music as something I do PURELY because I love it, and after having had it as a main job, I'm very glad of that.
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Garden maintenance is a great business and one that provides for a lot of friends here in the south...also you have been playing guitar for a long time and that is sure to be there to enjoy at any time.. There are a lot of musicians at my working place which is a totally unrelated business, but as they bring food, shelter, and clothing for their families they also find themselves getting together and jamming with friends all the time and having fun. You are still very young and starting a family requires a solid ground... music is still there to be enjoyed..Best to you Sir...
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I'm reading a lot of past hurt in these posts guys. All of which I can relate to.
I also had that realisation after being signed up, record deal, management deal, support slots, radio plays then a big dose of real life and how other people can be affected.
To be honest I'm quite glad that it didn't get much further. Some of the industry types (well pretty much all really) were total snakes.
I know so many really talented musicians who are all great people, very few of whom have managed to have a continuous source of income from music.
Stevie man, you have just joined a very large group of people.
We are all over the internet forums and chat rooms, recording stuff and uploading to soundcloud etc, banging out red hot cover versions in your local boozer on a Tuesday night, hanging about luthiers getting setups and refrets done.
Join us dude. It's fun :lol:
Don't forget that that passion you have doesn't go away at all. Now you will be able to afford to buy gear that you like/need/want and provide for your family.
Thats a much better deal in the long run.
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From what people are saying, sounds like you may now have the best of both worlds. You can have a job to bring in a steady living and enjoy your musical pursuits. Biggest problem will be getting that old chestnut, the "work/life balance", right. :wink:
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I could never make a living with a guitar unless I was a busker that you paid to shut up. I could make a killing doing that.
But I have been helping my best mate set up a garden maintenance business, so if you have any questions I can tell you how we've gone about it. Might not be the best way, but it may be some help. Feel free to PM me.
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I've just realised there are a lot of people talking about garden maintenance in this thread....
Anyone fancy sorting mine out? I HATE gardening, I haven't touched it in 20 years. I did once pay some old geezer to clear it, but he did of it half then disappeared.... I expect his fox-gnawed bones may be somewhere under the brambles. :|
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I've just realised there are a lot of people talking about garden maintenance in this thread....
Anyone fancy sorting mine out? I HATE gardening, I haven't touched it in 20 years. I did once pay some old geezer to clear it, but he did of it half then disappeared.... I expect his fox-gnawed bones may be somewhere under the brambles. :|
He's not under your bed ?
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I've just realised there are a lot of people talking about garden maintenance in this thread....
Anyone fancy sorting mine out? I HATE gardening, I haven't touched it in 20 years. I did once pay some old geezer to clear it, but he did of it half then disappeared.... I expect his fox-gnawed bones may be somewhere under the brambles. :|
He's not under your bed ?
:lol: :lol:
Can't be, there's no room down there!
And I'd have noticed the smell..... for a while, at least.
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I can relate so much to this thread, it almost hurts.
Having started playing guitar with 15 I realised too late what I was missing. My dad and my grandpa would always urge me to pick up the instrument, however I was the fool that rather played videogames. Since then, whilst being still in school, I had so much to discover, to catch up to. That included my first band, first live gigging experiences and the somewhat foolish imagination that we'd be the next big hit in the metal scene (in a music-godforsaken country like Austria). However things went the way they always do, spiced up with a good portion of reality. The band split up, I would attempt to form new groups which failed and fell apart more in the short than in the long run and wasted 2 years holding on to my "dream", or better said my imagination.
Now I'm 21, started my studies at university and stoped wasting time, I finally got my life sorted out and it "only" required 2 years. Still I wouldn't change it, may it be wasted time or not, because I needed that period of failure and reflection to realise how things work and to "grow up".
Now I would never ever stop playing guitar or lose my passion for music, however I have set myself some limits and some goals. I have my best friend and bass player who shares the love for music and relates to me better than any musician I have met beforehand. We took his basement apart and build ourselves a rehearsal room, just for the two of us to write music and jam stuff we love. There's an EP planned, but there's no pressure, no time limit and no urged expectation. It's music for the love of music and a spare time filler.
Now I wanted to study music, but I realised that I would never make a living out of it, especially because I lack the motivation (I can be really lazy) and I'm no freak of nature regarding talent. I decided to go for law, and whilst I might not enjoy it as much as I would enjoy trying to keep up with my dream, I know it's the better decision in the long run. Heck it has even made playing more enjoyable, I have to plan my time carefully hence I charish the moments I play the guitar even more now, and having less time means more productive use of it for practising which has also helped me to become a better player.
I don't see it as a bad thing, rather as a mature decision facing the harsh reality our world has become. I will never stop playing, I will put out that dang EP, maybe even an album. But I will need something I can earn my food with and I know the music industry is not the way that's going to work out.
Cheers
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This is a very interesting and honest thread. As someone who always felt that I would never succeed a music, but of course had the dream, I can understand a lot.
I think also the music business in the digital age has so much changed that the classic musician job doesn't really exist much anymore. It is session work and recording work, but not being in a band anymore.
I would also like to point out that quite a number of "famous" band members actually have day jobs that they fall back on - Jerry from the Misfits, for example. I think Chris Amott from Arch Enemy stopped being in the band a while as well due to studying, or Stefan Elmgren from Hammerfall used to do a lot of flying until he left Hammerfall to become an airline pilot. Tim Mills plays in bands, but makes his living (I guess, never met him) through making pickups. The love for music doesn't have to stop.
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In my opinion, I think too many people think they'll end up like Metallica if they joined a band. I don't know from a personal experience but I know some really good bands lose people because members want to form families and it's not necessarily a bad thing.
And as you say the music business is different these days but not always in a bad way, you can always be a bedroom guitarist and all you need is YouTube, a guitar, and a bedroom. I'd say you were making a mature choice, but I wouldn't say that doesn't open up some other choices for you to keep guitar, or making music, etc. a main part of your day-to-day.
Myself? Would love to be in a band, but I'm too much of a cover guitarist. I'll just keep the thoughts in my head.
Oh, and a little extra: Heaven Shall Burn are an awesome band but all the band members have jobs so it's not entirely impossible.
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Stefan Elmgren from Hammerfall used to do a lot of flying until he left Hammerfall to become an airline pilot.
Steve Morse also had a spell as a pilot, somewhere between his stint in Kansas and Deep Purple if I remember right.
And of course Bruce Dickinson has done some professional flying as well.
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Stefan Elmgren from Hammerfall used to do a lot of flying until he left Hammerfall to become an airline pilot.
Steve Morse also had a spell as a pilot, somewhere between his stint in Kansas and Deep Purple if I remember right.
And of course Bruce Dickinson has done some professional flying as well.
Chris DeGarmo left Queensryche permanently to become a pilot too.
People never think of bands such as Metallica and Megadeth taking a risk to get where they are today but Metallica would never have made 'a living' from any thing until they made the black album 6-7 years after their debut.
Dream Theater stuck to their guns despite huge pressure from their labels to write radio friendly songs and succeeded but that would have taken a lot of determination.
I wonder about musicians and their business decisions. Like Nevermore splitting up, to me theyre the best metal band since Pantera but I bet they never made a decent living off it and never would have, I bet Mr Loomis makes a bit endorsing all the gear he does though which is fair enough.
I'd live to know how much money bands such as Testament make no big singles or albums or festivals but constantly touring and eleaing material.
I think with metal though it seems all these bands hit their stride commercially in their 30's all that before you risk every thing to succeed.
One of my mates Dads band (Who shall remain nameless) did big arena's with Def Leppard and Blind Guardian, their debut sold over 100,000 and Metallica used to cover their songs. I'd call that a success but still not enough to live off. In summary SUSTAINING a career in rock n roll is unrealistic.