Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: GuitarIv on January 20, 2013, 01:14:38 PM
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Cheers guys,
so recently I stumbled across the weird story with Invictus guitars. I got to know the brand through Facebook and Aliases (new band of former SikTh guitarist Pin) and saw their builds on their official FB page. Now first I thought to myself "those are pretty reasonable prices for a custom build" and even thought about getting one at some point, however that was just my typical G.A.S.
Being the maniac regarding guitars and gear I am, I would notice several times Misha from Periphery telling only bad things about them and I thought to myself "what an arsehole" since his word has proven to be a reputation killer or enhancer for lots of brands. Then there was this story with Vildhjarta, where they canceled their endorsement deal with Invictus stating that all they wanted were "playable guitars". I thought to myself "that's just the typical Djent fanboy talking following Mishas opinion", however after doing some research I found pics and first hand reviews that seemed to prove the negative reputation going on with the brand. Last thing I know is: every worker left the shop, leaving the owner on his own to finish the remaining builds and delve into Oblivion.
Now I also noticed some weird stuff regarding The Illustrated Luthier (Tosin form AAL owns a guitar by him) on the Sevenstring Forum (not a registered user there, just stumbled via google over it) stating that some of his guitars are rubbish.
Is this some kind of common phenomena? Luthiers claiming big price tags on builds that suck? Is there a trend for people to go DIY and sell stuff before they have the knowledge required? Don't get me wrong, I'd like to build a guitar myself one day, but I know my criteria for a good instrument and would never even think of asking for money for a build before I'm not sure I can provide a consistent and decent quality.
If anyone could clear this story up for me, that would be great.
Cheers
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Not really got much to add, but I went on the Invictus page just now and those things look like horrid Blackmachine knock offs.
I've had a little go on a blackmachine and even though they are aren't my thing, I have to say it was killer. I've only been blown away maybe once or twice when picking up an instrument in my life. These guitars just look like Blackmachine rip offs with a reverse headstock. Very unoriginal.
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This sucks. I've also heard about phoney pickup makers, and it's really bugging me because the name of the "company" was associated with the Allman Brothers. Damn this is gonna eat at me all day...
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If I was going to order a custom build guitar I would want to be absolutely certain that the luthier had an impeccable reputation. I would want to play a few examples of their work. Maybe this company has had it's problems but I saw some pictures that looked terrible. Would anyone pay money up front to these guys ? If I had the cash I'd love to look into Feline guitars but I'd still want to visit their workshop and play a few guitars before I laid any money down.
And who are the phoney pickup makers ?
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Interesting , but I hope the generic title of this thread isn't going to prove misleading or off-putting to players looking for artisan built guitars.
I'm not sure what you mean by "phoney" - assembling Warmoth bits and passing off as all original work, or simply handmade guitars that just don't cut it?
There are dedicated hardworking luthiers (both here in the UK and abroad) who work hard to bring the best possible product to players.
I know my own lines follow the "updated classics" route while other makers forge ahead with their own designs.
There has definitely been a spate of Blackmachine wannabes and knockoffs emerging - possibly exacerbated by the lack of new Blackmachines that came out in the last 18 months.
I am fairly close to Doug, having been good mates for nearly 25 years, and having helped each other with the development of ideas and lending a hand to each other when needed.
Often it's nothing more than doing photography for him, other-times a bit more - we've often lent a hand in the B6 model from the outset.
I have been working closely with Doug lately - trying to give him a hand to see that in 2013 more B6 models actually make it into the hands of players.
This week I've been photographing a couple of B6s, that will get shipped off to their new homes in the next week or so.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/felineguitars/CUSTOM%20BUILT/Blackmachine%20B6/blackmachineB6-303_zpsbaf09dfd.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/felineguitars/CUSTOM%20BUILT/Blackmachine%20B6/blackmachineB6-311_zps5219fabd.jpg)
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Sorry Jonathan, I didn't mean to put anyone off, I own a custom handmade guitar myself, I love it and I know that you do your job more than well. I'll change the thread title.
All I wanted to know is if this is becoming a common phenomena, people starting a "business" without having the proper skills. It seems to me that the DIY approach is spreading across a lot of things in an age of the internet.
Btw I'd love to treat myself with a second custom guitar and there are a lot of great luthiers out there, Daemoness Guitars, Wirebird Guitars, you guys from Feline, Blackmachine, Vik Guitars, Skervesen, BlackCat, Jaden Rose and so on...
Cheers
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Daemoness Guitars, Wirebird Guitars, you guys from Feline, Blackmachine, Vik Guitars, Skervesen, BlackCat, Jaden Rose and so on...
Sam who runs Wirebird is a friend who used to work for me - great skills that boy has!
I would love for them to be a guitar show that involved ALL of the UK small builders, so players could come and get hands on with some well made guitars
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Yes that would be great. Actually I'm planning a trip to the UK in the future (hopefully if cash and university leave the possibility to) to check out all the workshops, play the guitars and catch some bands doing shows. I'm a big fan of the music and lutherie in the UK, Sylosis, Red Seas Fire, Exit Ten, Aliases and loads of other great artists and builders have been catching my eye for a long time by now. Oh and I love my BKPs :P
Cheers
edit: and of course Zilla Cabs! Gonna get myself a Super Fatboy asap and maybe Toe-Knee will build an amp for me (only problem everytime is cash :? )
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the wirebird tele style things look really really cool
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All I wanted to know is if this is becoming a common phenomena, people starting a "business" without having the proper skills. It seems to me that the DIY approach is spreading across a lot of things in an age of the internet.
That is the nature of small businesses! Anyone can set themselves up in business whether they're formally qualified, qualified by experience or not qualified at all. Even if you are formally qualified, it doesn't guarantee you'll do a good (or honest) job.
In certain areas - lawyers, accountants, surveyors - the customer will expect to see formal qualifications, but in others, like guitar building, (a) there may be no recognised qualification and (b) experience, talent, imagination and perhaps a bit of business nous are far more important. There's no magical point at which you have "the proper skills" - to some extent you have to assess that for yourself then let others decide on the quality and value of your work.
For a small guitar builder, success is ultimately always going to be based on the quality of their work. Yes, some well-placed and well-designed advertising and promotion can attract initial interest, but your potential "market" is really very small and word of mouth spreads quickly. Then you succeed, or you fail.
I doubt that many, if any, of these luthiers you're talking about are genuinely "phoney", but some will be better than others and some may be simply overestimating their own skills. They'll be found out quickly enough.
Ultimately, no-one should be investing in a custom guitar without seeing the builder's work or at least getting very strong recommendations from people they really trust.
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I'l see if I can dig up the thread I came across a few months back regarding invictus,
It was claimed that those shoddy pictures was the first piece work done by an apprentice and the instrument was never released to the public.
There was also a lot of stuff to back this up including shining examples of Invictus builds.
I didn't pay too much attention however as the guitars held no appeal to me at all the same as all other guitars of that style they're just a bit wonky looking imho and look a touch too fragile.
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Whatever the story here I am pretty sure that it will not be anywhere near as mental as "rhythm in jump dancing close to you". :wink:
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Whatever the story here I am pretty sure that it will not be anywhere near as mental as "rhythm in jump dancing close to you". :wink:
HA!
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Whatever the story here I am pretty sure that it will not be anywhere near as mental as "rhythm in jump dancing close to you". :wink:
HA!
Ah, memories...
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Whenever I see that heading "The Invictus Story" it makes me think of some ropey sword-and-sandal gladiator series with lots of CGI bloodletting.....
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I dont much give a $%&# as Legras are awesome, due to Bob being awesome, but this cropped up on another forum, if youre interested.
http://www.themonolith.com/featured/invictus-guitars-uk-victims-or-villains/ (http://www.themonolith.com/featured/invictus-guitars-uk-victims-or-villains/)
TLDR: Head and now only luthier is a lackadaisical type thats bitten off more than he can chew. (Disclaimer: this is not my opinion, I dont have one, I scanned it quickly and thats more or less what it says).
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Thanks for the link MDV, wanted to post it myself right now. That answers my questions and sheds light on the whole story. Quite pathetic.
Even if you lack the skill to build a good guitar, you could at least admit it and pay back the money. Gareth has proven himself to be a person one shouldn't trust and has destroyed his reputation as a luthier, if he ever dares to make a build again...
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Whatever the story here I am pretty sure that it will not be anywhere near as mental as "rhythm in jump dancing close to you". :wink:
HA!
Ah, memories...
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/guitarsatbmusic/devries/devries_trem.jpg)
http://youtu.be/a1FZ5Hnmgsw (http://youtu.be/a1FZ5Hnmgsw)
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Reading through this last night and 2 things are clear to me
- If you want to go custom, intensive research is your friend
- I want a Wirebird Contour, (especially if Jon endorses the guys skills)
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Sounds like someone didn't do enough research and now wants to seem heroic after they've been burned. There does seem to be an awful lot of bandwagon hopping with regard to 'custom' or 'boutique' guitars... And I think a lot of people have some strange desire to be the first to find a new maker and seem like the PR person for a new company. I suspect that most of the nonsense comes from the sevenstring forum, they have seemed like a big bunch of babies in the couple of times I've been there.
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Some folks said the guys guitars were great. sounds like he just got out of his depth.
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Whatever the story here I am pretty sure that it will not be anywhere near as mental as "rhythm in jump dancing close to you". :wink:
HA!
Ah, memories...
I remember this one, lost for words still.... :lol:
I've had a lot of people asking my about my Feline Lion recently. It makes people gasp still 8)
Jonathan, could you make a 6 string Jazz style bass?
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Read and saw this rythm in jump stuff for the first time. What. The. Actual...
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Yep, it has that sort of impact. Bonkers.
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Another testimonial by Lee McKiney from born of Osiris:
"Hey everyone! It's very unfortunate that it has come to this... but I feel it necessary to tell you all my (Lee McKinney) situation with Invictus Guitars. This is not to stir up drama with them, it's simply to show you that this company is one to be VERY cautious of.
One year ago, I contacted Invictus guitars UK about a custom build. I had been talking to many other guitar companies, in hopes of having a custom 8 string built. I went with Invictus because not only did they give me a fair price (basically shipping and case), but they offered me the quickest turn around time. In my memory they said I would have the guitar in March, apparently to Invictus memory they said April. Regardless... It's now a year later and after being promised a guitar that is now 10 months overdue, I've given up thinking I'll ever receive it. Many friends in the industry have had the same thing happen to them. Whats worse, not everyone can get the same discount I was offered. Some people were paying thousands of dollars for guitars they either didn't receive, or received in an unplayable condition. For the second half of last year I was being told by the owner that I would receive it the following week, only to have him disappear for a couple more weeks. Then once I got a hold of him again, the cycle repeated. I'm over this. I've been advertised as an Invictus artist now for some time, but starting now I will NOT be associated with a company that runs their business similar to how a teenager would. To me this has felt like a total scam. I feel terrible that my advertising of the company could have in one way or another led to someone purchasing a guitar from them... because if that did happen, they most likely never got it.
Below is a full article on the company. It includes pictures and testimonials from other bands that were put in the same situation.
- Lee McKinney"
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Whatever the story here I am pretty sure that it will not be anywhere near as mental as "rhythm in jump dancing close to you". :wink:
HA!
Ah, memories...
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/guitarsatbmusic/devries/devries_trem.jpg)
http://youtu.be/a1FZ5Hnmgsw (http://youtu.be/a1FZ5Hnmgsw)
This trivial, forgettable cr@p about invictus (seriously, why is it news, or interesting in the least: dont buy one, problem $%&#ing solved) will never, NEVER rival the glorious cluster$%&# that was Devries.
Never.
That was so far past shite it made it all the way round back to awesome again.
Rhythm in jump. Dancing close to you will never be topped. Genius. Brilliant, inept, glorious incompetent genius.
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Looked up the Devries story as well. Holy mother of mind$%&#.
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Devries? *runs to Google....*
Reaction tba.
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...Holy clusterf**k, WOW.
Now I've seen it all! :?
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http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=574118895950147&set=pcb.574128132615890&type=1&permPage=1 (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=574118895950147&set=pcb.574128132615890&type=1&permPage=1)
Keith Merrow just posted these pics as reason for him quiting his deal with Stictly 7. Bummer.