Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: DannyDowd on January 22, 2013, 04:01:03 PM
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Im looking to replace the bridge 498t in my gibson SG standard.
It isnt a warm enough tone for what i want and has too much bite.
Im looking for a 70's heavy/classic rock tone and I'm unsure on what would be the best option..... please help hah
I play through a jcm900 head and a 1960a cab and have the bass on 9 and the mid's on 7 to try and get a nicer full sound and am in need of something with a nice amount of gain, tone and power.
P.S Im only planning on buying the bridge pickup as I never, ever use the neck pickup i just use pedals for what i need in terms of tone and boost's, could this affect the sound of the bridge pick up or does it run from a totally different wiring output therefore is not noticeable ( i havent a clue about pickups )
Thanks for your time guys.
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mule
and sell your JCM 900 for a good 50w non-master JMP
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thanks man, heard a lot of good things about the mule, might get that in my bridge, any other suggestions people. pro's and con's of some of BKP's Pups....
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Mule or Abraxas, if you need a bit more push.
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When you say the 498T has too much bite do you mean that it is too high in output ? Or that it is too sharp sounding ? 498T is a pretty high output pickup so an Abraxas or a Mule would have a lot less power if that's what you're after. I replaced mine (in a Firebird Studio which is like a big SG) with RYs at Tim's suggestion. But I'm not sure that's what you're after either.
I found the 498 to be an extremely annoying pickup as at lower volumes through my amp it was sharp and scratchy but at higher volumes it turned to mush like it had been wrapped in a sock. It had to go. What does it sound like when you turn the 900 up high ?
I would think that for 70's heavy rock you MIGHT find the Mule a little low in output.
I haven't played through a 900 in years. The last one was a combo that blew the transformer after I'd played for a about 30 seconds so I don't remember what they sound like.
I've used an SG with a JB in it for years and it sounds really good.
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I don't think the Abraxas would be a lot less hot than the 498T?
Normally I'd say the default option of Riff Raff for an SG, but it's not going to give you the warmer sound you've described. So yeah, Mule or maybe in this case you should break the "no medium output pickups in an SG" rule and try the Abraxas.
I might even say Crawler based on the full sound you're describing, but I really think it would be mushy in an SG.
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I would think that for 70's heavy rock you MIGHT find the Mule a little low in output.
he stated he uses boost pedals, so that wouldn't be a problem
that's what I do as well
the mule excels for that 70's tones and much much more when boosted
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Mules can do 70's (classic) rock easily, certainly on a Marshall. Maxon OD or something similar in front and you have a nice solotone.
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by the way, is the amp the regular 2-channel jcm 900 with reverb or the '91 mk III single channel version?
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by the way, is the amp the regular 2-channel jcm 900 with reverb or the '91 mk III single channel version?
I was going to ask the exact same question. I always thought that the SL-X was a very good sounding amp and liked it way better than both the High Gain Master and High Gain Dual Reverb models.
As regards the pickup I think that the Black Dog bridge would be what you want - a bit more output, bass and mids than a vintage PAF style humbucker.
Cheers Stephan
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thanks for all the replies people, yeah in terms of the current pup having too much bite im talking the sharp sound it has as apose to the actual output of the pickup, i agree with the pickup sounding way too scratchy when my head is turned down to around 1-1.5, on about 2.5-3.5 it starts to sound slightly better but you need to stand well back as if you are stood within around 5-7.5 metres its got too much high end and isnt warm enough.
Also in an output sense how will this affect the overall sound ( being a lower output than the 498t) ? I use an EHX LPB for solo's which gives it some sustain and volume so i should be fine in that sense, then for general playing i just sit on my bridge pickup for pretty much all my playing. and yeah its the 2 channel jcm 900 reverb head, channel A for cleaner playing, channel B is more overdriven, which is where i sit :)
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thanks darkbluemurder, its looking like a choice between ' The Mule ' ' Black Dog ' and ' Abraxas ' , now im just going to have to decipher the pro's and con's of those three and go for it. Ahhhhhhhhhhh decisions .
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by the way, is the amp the regular 2-channel jcm 900 with reverb or the '91 mk III single channel version?
sorry man im new to this site so im just figuring out how to respond hah, there is some more details in above comments, but yes it is the 2 channel ( A and B ) jcm 900 reverb head. :D
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thanks darkbluemurder, its looking like a choice between ' The Mule ' ' Black Dog ' and ' Abraxas ' , now im just going to have to decipher the pro's and con's of those three and go for it. Ahhhhhhhhhhh decisions .
I never played a Mule but you will not go wrong with either the Black Dog or the Abraxas. The Abraxas would be closer in output to the 498T. Compared to the Black Dog the Abraxas has more midrange and a creamier tone whereas the Black Dog is the clearer and glassier of the two. To be clear I am talking only bridge pickups here.
So if a creamy tone is most important to you, go Abraxas.
If clarity is most important, go Black Dog.
Both have a warm tone, and neither of them is harsh or muddy.
If it is still hard to decide - get another guitar and get both :D
The only SG I ever had was a very middy guitar so I would have gone with the Black Dog for that to balance it a bit out. I don't know however if that is also the case with your guitar. If it's a bright guitar acoustically the Abraxas could balance that out.
Cheers Stephan
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thanks darkbluemurder, its looking like a choice between ' The Mule ' ' Black Dog ' and ' Abraxas ' , now im just going to have to decipher the pro's and con's of those three and go for it. Ahhhhhhhhhhh decisions .
I never played a Mule but you will not go wrong with either the Black Dog or the Abraxas. The Abraxas would be closer in output to the 498T. Compared to the Black Dog the Abraxas has more midrange and a creamier tone whereas the Black Dog is the clearer and glassier of the two. To be clear I am talking only bridge pickups here.
So if a creamy tone is most important to you, go Abraxas.
If clarity is most important, go Black Dog.
Both have a warm tone, and neither of them is harsh or muddy.
If it is still hard to decide - get another guitar and get both :D
The only SG I ever had was a very middy guitar so I would have gone with the Black Dog for that to balance it a bit out. I don't know however if that is also the case with your guitar. If it's a bright guitar acoustically the Abraxas could balance that out.
Cheers Stephan
Thanks Stephan man, yeah that has helped a lot, any idea on which overdrives and sustains better, a nice 70s marshall vintage sustain.... But its looking like the ' Black Dog ' at the moment for me.
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one thing i'd say about this, you point out yourself that the amp starts to sound better when you turn it up. unfortunately, it's the nature of the beast with a lot of Marshalls that they will sound thinner and "scratchy" at lower volume settings. a BKP will have rounder, less shrill highs, but it won't completely cure the issue. the bkp will certainly be an improvement over the 498t, but it won't work miracles :)
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one thing i'd say about this, you point out yourself that the amp starts to sound better when you turn it up. unfortunately, it's the nature of the beast with a lot of Marshalls that they will sound thinner and "scratchy" at lower volume settings. a BKP will have rounder, less shrill highs, but it won't completely cure the issue. the bkp will certainly be an improvement over the 498t, but it won't work miracles :)
cheers man, i still feel it will be mainly the pickups, because i have a lot of bass and mids on my head and only around 4 treble and even if my 4 x 12 and 100w head is on around 3-4 it is still a little hollow sounding, so i just need something with a better fat/warm tone :D
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too much bite? granted the guitar can affect the tone a fair bit too, maybe your sg is very bright-sounding or something, but my 498t is warm to a fault, IMO. also granted i haven't changed the stock 300k volume pots, either (maybe you have).
those g12t75 speakers are pretty bitey/fizzy, too (as may be the jcm900, though i haven't tried one).
I just don't want you to maybe change the wrong thing.
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too much bite? granted the guitar can affect the tone a fair bit too, maybe your sg is very bright-sounding or something, but my 498t is warm to a fault, IMO. also granted i haven't changed the stock 300k volume pots, either (maybe you have).
those g12t75 speakers are pretty bitey/fizzy, too (as may be the jcm900, though i haven't tried one).
I just don't want you to maybe change the wrong thing.
I just think they sound a bit empty at times, especially through the big 4 by 12, i have a combo avt275 which i have the scoop on to give it a bit more body and lows and mids but the jcm900 is a fairly simple head and doesnt have that option so im having to make do, its not disasterously bad hah still think they are ok pickups for certain styles but i just need a bit more Oooophmmm than bite, definitely not warm enough for my liking :\
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the problem with the jcm 900 version is that its drive circuit is solid state, just like the avt and valvestate series
it's really hard to get a warm tone from those
I've seen motorhead in rock in rio 2011 and phil campbell's tone was awful, pure metalzone-like fizz
I've heard good jcm 900 tones from silverchair and karnivool, though, but certainly not the type of tone you need
you could sell it for a proper all tube marshall or you could use a preamp straight to the loop return
I recommend our forumite juansolo dual tube preamp pedals for that
http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/stompage/toob.html (http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/stompage/toob.html)
the STM800 model should work for you, but you could ask for a plexi version
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... or you could use a preamp straight to the loop return
That is a very good suggestion. Since rack equipment is still considered "out", many rack preamps which were popular in the late 80s can be had for little money.
Cheers Stephan
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the problem with the jcm 900 version is that its drive circuit is solid state, just like the avt and valvestate series
it's really hard to get a warm tone from those
I've seen motorhead in rock in rio 2011 and phil campbell's tone was awful, pure metalzone-like fizz
I've heard good jcm 900 tones from silverchair and karnivool, though, but certainly not the type of tone you need
you could sell it for a proper all tube marshall or you could use a preamp straight to the loop return
I recommend our forumite juansolo dual tube preamp pedals for that
http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/stompage/toob.html (http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/stompage/toob.html)
the STM800 model should work for you, but you could ask for a plexi version
Cheers for the help hellstyle man, im partial to marshall, which marshall head would you recommend for a warm and well gained up sound... thanks a lot dude.
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I am not Eric but I will answer anyway:
- for a true vintage tone, the 1987 (50 watts) or 1959 (100 watts) would be best. These don't have a master volume so beware: LOUD, LOUDER, LOUDEST!
- for 70s/early 80s rock and hard rock: the 2204 (50 watts) or 2203 (100 watts) would be best. They have a master volume but they are still LOUD.
The non-master volume models se models were part of the JTM series (both with plexiglass and aluminum front panel), of the JMP and of the JCM 800 series. They have been reissued at various times. The master volume amps were part of the JMP and the JCM 800 series. The ZW signature model is essentially a 2203, as is the KK signature which in addition has a noise gate and an "assault" circuit which I believe is a diode clipper.
- for 70s and 80s tones the Jubilee silver series (2550) would also be a good choice. The early Slash signature model was essentially one of those models (not the more recent AFD head).
- I personally liked the SL-X model out of the JCM 900 series, even though this has much higher gain than the others mentioned.
I have not had much experience with the JCM 2000 series and have never played one of the newer signature models. They may be worth looking into as well.
Cheers Stephan
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You have a gainy amp and an SG - I would totally look at Riff Raffs, surprised they haven't been mentioned so far - they are voiced after 70s Gibson pickups.
JCM900s are often spoken badly about, but I think they are good value on the 2nd hand market, and whenever I've played one have been able to work it into a decent tone. I don't think they are terrible amps at all, but on the other hand Marshall have made many better amps. I would prefer a DSL JCM2000 even, but I think Vintage Moderns go for a good price 2nd hand, and I would maybe get one of those.
Some mods might improve things on the 900 - speakers and tubes will be easy to do. Maybe I would look at the speakers first. Some people put Vintage 30s in an X patten with G12T75 speakers - could be an idea?
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You have a gainy amp and an SG - I would totally look at Riff Raffs, surprised they haven't been mentioned so far - they are voiced after 70s Gibson pickups.
Yes, they seem to be a standard match to SGs but the OP said he had too much bite - isn't that what Riff Raffs are all about?
Cheers Stephan
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You have a gainy amp and an SG - I would totally look at Riff Raffs, surprised they haven't been mentioned so far - they are voiced after 70s Gibson pickups.
JCM900s are often spoken badly about, but I think they are good value on the 2nd hand market, and whenever I've played one have been able to work it into a decent tone. I don't think they are terrible amps at all, but on the other hand Marshall have made many better amps. I would prefer a DSL JCM2000 even, but I think Vintage Moderns go for a good price 2nd hand, and I would maybe get one of those.
Some mods might improve things on the 900 - speakers and tubes will be easy to do. Maybe I would look at the speakers first. Some people put Vintage 30s in an X patten with G12T75 speakers - could be an idea?
thanks a lot mate, yeah i've just today been looking at modding my jcm900, im looking at removing the r7 and r43 therefore resulting in what mod experts seem to be describing as scooping mids, adds to the low end and makes the amp sound less harsh and sterile
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You have a gainy amp and an SG - I would totally look at Riff Raffs, surprised they haven't been mentioned so far - they are voiced after 70s Gibson pickups.
Yes, they seem to be a standard match to SGs but the OP said he had too much bite - isn't that what Riff Raffs are all about?
Yeah, I mentioned them but they didn't seem like they'd fit the bill in this particular case.
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Its true what you say, Philly and Darkblue about the bite of the Riff Raff, but they do have raunchy grind to them which I feel is "typical 1970s".
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As far as amps go, I'd definitely look in a 2203 or 2204. Whether it's a JMP or a JCM is more personal taste
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Some mods might improve things on the 900 - speakers and tubes will be easy to do. Maybe I would look at the speakers first. Some people put Vintage 30s in an X patten with G12T75 speakers - could be an idea?
that's what i was thinking. g12t75s are notoriously scooped. changing (warm-sounding) pickups when you have scooped speakers (and the scoop is what you're complaining about) is doing it backwards, IMO. You run the risk of spending a fair bit of money and not actually fixing the problem.
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Speakers can indeed make a big difference. I have also heard that the G12T75 is rather midscooped - that's why many combine them with V30s in an X-pattern in a 4x12" cab (cannot comment first hand as I use neither).
Cheers Stephan
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modding a jcm 900 won't do much
the gain circuit is still solid state based
a decent mod would require removing the reverb and wiring a new preamp input section with the spare tube, and that's certainly not worth all the work
if you're in US or UK, you can find a 70's metal panel JMP (master or non-master) for under US$1000/£600
a non-master 50 watter still works well at bedroom levels with proper pedals and proper speakers
greenbacks sound great in medium low volumes
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modding a jcm 900 won't do much
the gain circuit is still solid state based
a decent mod would require removing the reverb and wiring a new preamp input section with the spare tube, and that's certainly not worth all the work
if you're in US or UK, you can find a 70's metal panel JMP (master or non-master) for under US$1000/£600
a non-master 50 watter still works well at bedroom levels with proper pedals and proper speakers
greenbacks sound great in medium low volumes
I may see if i can get around 450-550 for my jcm 900 then and then get a JMP, by a 70's metal panel, you mean its not metal sounding, it has a nice heavy 70's rock tone and is good with gain.... cheers :D
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Marshall JVM range is fairly versatile.
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by a 70's metal panel, you mean its not metal sounding, it has a nice heavy 70's rock tone and is good with gain.... cheers :D
"Metal panel" is only the opposite to "plexi panel". It has nothing to do with the music played with the amp behind the panel. The circuitry behind those panels has not changed that much, really. Nevertheless, the Marshalls with the plexi panels command higher prices on the vintage collector's market, hence the tip to look for the metal panels as these offer practically the same sound for less money.
Cheers Stephan
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Speakers can indeed make a big difference. I have also heard that the G12T75 is rather midscooped - that's why many combine them with V30s in an X-pattern in a 4x12" cab (cannot comment first hand as I use neither).
Cheers Stephan
yeah a v30 combines well with a g12t75. I've only tried them in a 2x12, though, haven't tried them in an x-pattern in a 4x12. But I assume that'd work well too.
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Since we're talking about JCM900 dual reverb: you can get some nice tones from this amp, as long as you don't use the stock speakers, stick to the "clean" channel, keep the gain low and just crank the volume up. Bad news : it's then freaking too loud to be usable anywhere except perhaps in a US Stadium - but it sounds ok :mrgreen:
@Danny: replacing your stock pups with BKPs will probably be a huge improvement, but I have to agree with dave_mc : don't choose your pups to fix the amp, first fix the amp then choose pups that fit your guitar.
You have a gainy amp and an SG - I would totally look at Riff Raffs, surprised they haven't been mentioned so far - they are voiced after 70s Gibson pickups.
Actually they are based on early 60s specs - latest PAFs / early Patent NO, as found on the first SGs.
JCM900s are often spoken badly about, but I think they are good value on the 2nd hand market
They go for dirt cheap indeed, but for the same price you can get a Fender HRDx which is a much better amp (stock) IMHO _and_ is cheaper to "fix". FWIW, I can get way better "nice 70s marshall vintage sustain" from a HRDx plugged into a 1965 Marshall cab (and using the right OD) than I anything I ever got with my JCM900 whatever I tried.
Just my 2 cents...
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thanks again to everyone who's inputted into this conversation, much appreciated, ive decided to look into making a few basic modifications in my amps circuit to try and improve the tone and the mids and lows and will then get the black dog bridge pup :D
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i'd also say... i've since tried my sg with my brighter, high gain amps and it actually doesn't sound too muddy. So I'm not sure what was going on there. It kinda sounded muddy and murky with my lower wattage more vintage style amps. :lol: Sorry :oops:
But certainly fixing the amp and/or speakers first is probably a better idea than pickups- that's not to say pickups make no difference, once you have perfect other gear the pickups are often the difference between sounding good and sounding great. But they'll only do so much (and also might not necessarily be the main cause of the problem, either).
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I have a set of Black Dogs in mine and they are very ballsy and warm!
Slainte-
Mark
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Mules, great pups mine have been in my LP for a few years now still sounding great