Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: JJretroTONEGOD on February 04, 2013, 01:27:08 AM
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Hi there,
I have recently bought some sprague orange capacitors for a couple of guitars but have not installed them yet
it was at this point that I realised that BKP make jensen capacitors and would like to know if you have had any experiences the BKP caps and if they are worth getting over orange spragues? they seem better quality but are rather expensive.
any help would be appreciated before I get to do some soldering.
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capacitors of the same value actual value (not their stated value) do exactly the same thing and sound exactly the same. its easy to test too, just wire a couple of caps up to a switch and select between them on the fly. but you need to test them with a multimeter first to ensure tehy are actually the same value
I did it a while back. I think there was some difference in the sweep, but full on and full off sounded exactly the same with the same sounds available in between, just not necessarily at the same location. although some disagree with me on this and say even the sweep is the same
but i also found that cheap ceramic disc caps were often well under the stated value,which does account for a big tonal difference
the main thing you get with more expensive caps is tighter tolerances so they are more likely to be the value they state. but you could buy 10 cheaper caps for the same price and get a few bang on the stated value.
I tend to buy orange drops now, they are pretty close to stated value and are not too pricey
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capacitors of the same value actual value (not their stated value) do exactly the same thing and sound exactly the same. its easy to test too, just wire a couple of caps up to a switch and select between them on the fly. but you need to test them with a multimeter first to ensure tehy are actually the same value
I did it a while back. I think there was some difference in the sweep, but full on and full off sounded exactly the same with the same sounds available in between, just not necessarily at the same location. although some disagree with me on this and say even the sweep is the same
but i also found that cheap ceramic disc caps were often well under the stated value,which does account for a big tonal difference
the main thing you get with more expensive caps is tighter tolerances so they are more likely to be the value they state. but you could buy 10 cheaper caps for the same price and get a few bang on the stated value.
I tend to buy orange drops now, they are pretty close to stated value and are not too pricey
I agree with this entirely. Another thing to take into mind is that in a circuit such as a guitar the cap will have very minimal affect in comparison to something running at high voltages which is where cap choice really counts imho.
I did a lot of experimenting as Wez has and found there to be no difference at all between caps of the same value.
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Hmm, this could cause controversy with the paper-in-oil faction.....
It's a bit like the "guitar timber makes no difference" debate.
I don't really have a strong opinion about the capacitor question, so long as the tone control actually does something (and hopefully not all between 0 and 1, or 9 and 10) I don't really care how or why it does it.
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its easier to test than the wood thing, 5 minutes with a soldering iron, a switch, and a selection of caps is enough
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I can testify I always heard a difference between cheap ceramics and PIO caps (using the cheaper russian ones) of the same stated value :mrgreen: - but never actually bothered to check the real value with my multimeter (BTW Wez, how do you check a cap value with a standard cheapo multimeter ???).
I've also read quite a few heated discussions about caps composition and their effect on tone on other places, and I can't honestly say that "PIO caps always make an obvious difference", just that they always sounded less sterile to me on the guitars I modded but well, I know what "psychoacoustic" means too :lol:.
When it comes to woods, I don't need a multimeter to know it makes a difference - even if not necessarily the one you would expect :mrgreen:
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hi guys and thanks for your responses,
I've realised that the orange spragues are fine and are certainly much better than the cheap ones that usually come as stock on most guitars, at first I was really shocked at how big they are expecting it to be tiny..
then I saw the orange beast and it's the size of the actual pots themselves! I need to improve my soldering skillz BRAP init,
next up going to solder my Danelctro 12 string and then a JJ Retro guitar tone pots.
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I've never done a scientific back to back test
I know that I have used the orange drops and they sounded good
I then tried the PIO and really felt that I liked the result.
Better than the Orange Drops?- not entirely sure but they sounded so good that I have repeated the exercise repeatedly and always been pleased with the result.
Usually the victim has been a Gibson Lp , or SG and maybe the change from 300k pots to 550k ones and utilising "50s wiring" combined with getting rid of the "nasty" cheap little ceramic disc caps just made such a substantial difference that I have never really delved into the pros and cons of the PIO
Emotionally the change has always felt good too - and sometimes that mental shift (even if it is to some extent a placebo effect) just helps with the confidence in the job.
I know some of the guys on Music Radar almost blow a valve when the frequent question of PIO caps comes up, but I just go with what feels right and am happy with either the Orange Drops or the Paper in Oil
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I took a bit of convincing on this one. i went through all my capacitors for the tests including some expensive ones, some old ones, some big orange ones and some little horrible discs.
From a pack of 10 I did not find a sinlge ceramic disc that was within 20% of the value it should be. most 0.022's were closer to 0.015, highest was 17.
out of the others most were within 10% and i found 4 different caps all rated at 0.02uf . i dont think all the cheap multimeters do it but over a certain price point most have capacitance meters
those that rated 0.02uf all sounded the same when using a toggle to instantly switch between
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I know some of the guys on Music Radar almost blow a valve when the frequent question of PIO caps comes up, but I just go with what feels right and am happy with either the Orange Drops or the Paper in Oil
that they do! personally, i don't mind what people spend their money on. i still occasional use PIO just because they look best and are often closest to stated value... and avoid ceramic discs for the same reasons
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Emotionally the change has always felt good too - and sometimes that mental shift (even if it is to some extent a placebo effect) just helps with the confidence in the job.
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This right here is the most important factor. That the user ends up happy with the end product.
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I do hear differences between various caps but they are not going to make or break a guitar. They can subtly enhance an already good guitar. Same for caps in amps.
For guitar tone caps I like Xicon MPPs since I feel that they bring almost no coloration to the sound when the tone control is full up, they are small in size and therefore easy to fit. I also like them in amps wherever I need to bleed highs to the ground. I don't like them as much when they are in series with the signal (such as guitar volume kits or coupling caps in amps).
Orange Drops work well as tone caps, so do PIOs, Jensens and Luxes. What you like best is personal preference.
Cheers Stephan
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(BTW Wez, how do you check a cap value with a standard cheapo multimeter ???).
A less cheap multimeter.
The accuracy of some of these components is comedy. But they add to the mojo ;)
I'm about to build a Colorsound Overdriver with carbon comp resistors and other such mojo nonsense. It'll be interesting to see how different it is to the one made out of modern far more accurate components that don't look quite as pretty.
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because i dont like to make claims without any evidence I have just wired the cap switch back up to my tester guitar - and a vid is uploading to youtube as we speak.
didnt have the same selection of caps i did last time i tried this so i have gone for a modern orange drop and vintage plessey capacitor. I even dissected another plessy to show its pretty similar to the ones people pay a lot of money for
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http://youtu.be/M9glO_v95jU (http://youtu.be/M9glO_v95jU)
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I know some of the guys on Music Radar almost blow a valve when the frequent question of PIO caps comes up, but I just go with what feels right and am happy with either the Orange Drops or the Paper in Oil
personally i just want to know the right way of it, because I'm willing to spend money for an actual verifiable improvement, but I don't want to spend money on snake oil.
that they do! personally, i don't mind what people spend their money on.
neither do i- as long as they're properly informed.
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There have been a few comparisons done on the matter but nothing really rock solid or high quality. It's a similar argument to pots affecting the tone where in reality its the value of the pots that do.
The only way you can know for certain is to buy a bunch of caps and try hot swapping them using crocodile clips.
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There have been a few comparisons done on the matter but nothing really rock solid or high quality. It's a similar argument to pots affecting the tone where in reality its the value of the pots that do.
The only way you can know for certain is to buy a bunch of caps and try hot swapping them using crocodile clips.
did you not see the vid i just posted. I know not everyone wants to see 3 mins of me flicking a switch :)
its hardly conclusive but only because it only compares 2 types of capacitors. Ok, sound quality could always be better - but you can still hear the tone of the guitar/amp pretty clearly. I mean, they are 2 different types matched for the same value sounding exactly the same to my ears. I think they sound different occasionally but its just me being inconsistent in attack - which is why there are 3 or 4 switches at each setting to limit that affect
the main point is that if you are going to compare capacitors it shows the best way to do it - without real time switching your ears can play all kinds of tricks on you.... even if doing a quick swap with croc clips
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Thanks for the video, Wez! I can't really hear any difference on the speakers im using here at work-- i'll give it a listen at home to check later, but it seems a small enough difference to not be terribly concerned about. I know there's weight in the 'small differences add up to a bigger difference' argument, but there are more important areas that one can focus on in order to improve tone.
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I would say there was no difference in the clip. some seem to appear on the strumming parts but i know that is more down to my technique than the actual tone control - as confirmed by the next time i flick the switch back and forth
now obviously i haven't used expensive PIO caps for the clips, just two different types of the same value. so i dont expect to convince anyone that PIO dont sound different from this clip alone. but hopefully its enough to cast some doubt on it and convince people to try it themselves with their our favorite caps
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^ yeah occasionally i heard slight differences, but I don't know if it was the same cap every time which sounded different (i wasn't paying that much attention to it :lol: ). Plus as you said, it could just be the recording or slightly different playing.
neither do i- as long as they're properly informed.
I should probably clarify what i mean here, as reading this back today it's a bit ambiguous.
When I said, "as long as they're properly informed", I meant "as long as companies aren't deliberately telling them lies to get them to buy their stuff."
Of course i'm not suggesting that people purchasing anything should have to pass an exam before they're allowed to buy anything, if people get the wrong end of the stick on their own (without prompting from less scrupulous companies or businesses) that's fair enough.
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There have been a few comparisons done on the matter but nothing really rock solid or high quality. It's a similar argument to pots affecting the tone where in reality its the value of the pots that do.
The only way you can know for certain is to buy a bunch of caps and try hot swapping them using crocodile clips.
did you not see the vid i just posted. I know not everyone wants to see 3 mins of me flicking a switch :)
its hardly conclusive but only because it only compares 2 types of capacitors. Ok, sound quality could always be better - but you can still hear the tone of the guitar/amp pretty clearly. I mean, they are 2 different types matched for the same value sounding exactly the same to my ears. I think they sound different occasionally but its just me being inconsistent in attack - which is why there are 3 or 4 switches at each setting to limit that affect
the main point is that if you are going to compare capacitors it shows the best way to do it - without real time switching your ears can play all kinds of tricks on you.... even if doing a quick swap with croc clips
Sorry I missed that. I was posting from my phone. I'll check it out now from what you have said you have come to the exact same conclusion as I have.
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In any scientific sphere, if you find an effect you then want to find a mechanism.
If caps do sound different then there can only be a number of explanations:
1) The caps are different value.
The most likely explanation. Few people measure the capacitance before fitting.
Wez's finding with the ceramic caps is interesting; ceramic caps have a poor reputation, but could this be due to their very poor tolerance?
2) The caps are distorting the signal.
Capacitor distortion can be measured in electrolytic and polyester caps. You would never use the former as tone caps. Polyester caps show a signal dependent distortion; however the effect is only measurable at the sort of signal levels you would find in a valve amp, and even then it's debatable whether this is audible.
If you use polypropylene caps then distortion is not an issue.
3) Series inductance.
This could affect the tone response, but only if the series inductance were large enough. The series inductance however is very low for caps, and this, in my opinion, is unlikely to have any audible effect.
4) Some other effect that has eluded scientific investigation.
I would put this in the unlikely category.
I think Wez hit the nail on the head with this, ie you need to measure your caps before installation.
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out of the others most were within 10% and i found 4 different caps all rated at 0.02uf . i dont think all the cheap multimeters do it but over a certain price point most have capacitance meters
Even some expensive meters don't have a capacitance measurement!
Most meters with a capacitance measurement are OK at these sort of values, although to get a truly accurate measurement requires a component bridge.
Did you ever try to get any idea of what difference in value was audible? For example can you here a 10% difference?
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In any scientific sphere, if you find an effect you then want to find a mechanism.
If caps do sound different then there can only be a number of explanations:
1) The caps are different value.
The most likely explanation. Few people measure the capacitance before fitting.
Wez's finding with the ceramic caps is interesting; ceramic caps have a poor reputation, but could this be due to their very poor tolerance?
2) The caps are distorting the signal.
Capacitor distortion can be measured in electrolytic and polyester caps. You would never use the former as tone caps. Polyester caps show a signal dependent distortion; however the effect is only measurable at the sort of signal levels you would find in a valve amp, and even then it's debatable whether this is audible.
If you use polypropylene caps then distortion is not an issue.
3) Series inductance.
This could affect the tone response, but only if the series inductance were large enough. The series inductance however is very low for caps, and this, in my opinion, is unlikely to have any audible effect.
4) Some other effect that has eluded scientific investigation.
I would put this in the unlikely category.
I think Wez hit the nail on the head with this, ie you need to measure your caps before installation.
This is an excellent post that i agree with wholeheartedly.
I do think that value point you make is the biggest factor in what people hear. Especially in older type caps where the tolerances arent as tight
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Did you ever try to get any idea of what difference in value was audible? For example can you here a 10% difference?
didn't consider it tbh as i was focused on finding ones of the same value. maybe i need to do it again with two of the same type of cap with slightly different values. i went through 6 of the plesseys to find one that matched the orange drop pretty closely
wish i still had those ceramic discs around here somewhere, but i am fairly sure i threw them in the bin after the original time i did this.
if any one wants to try my experiment without adding a mini switch see this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92G-jw4TqS4&feature=share&list=UU8AgXWvEbsuZhlqqXR2q5DQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92G-jw4TqS4&feature=share&list=UU8AgXWvEbsuZhlqqXR2q5DQ)
he is suggesting material does make a difference but note that he never compares actual value of the caps in question. but he shows a nice way to do the test without altering your guitar
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^
That was fascinating. But what an unbelievable geek he is to do that, and what an unbelievable geek I am to watch it.
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^
That was fascinating.
but intrinsically flawed at the same time for not matching the caps actual value ;)
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For what its worth. I use Ceramic caps in amps I build for values in the picofarad range. 500pf, 1000pf and maybe a little higher. I tend to use high voltage dipped types with very very tight tolerances. I think I prefer using those the mica caps. Compared to the little brown ceramics though they cost a lot more.
As for bigger values I like Polyester caps, at least in amps. I've given up on tone controls now though, so for me the argument is interesting but redundant. oops. Maybe its also interesting to mention that some orange drops and tubular polyester caps have an outer foil that you can wire to the point with the lowest impedance to ground so it acts like a little shield. Whether it makes an audible difference in an amp or guitar though... im not sure. I can see a difference in induced noise into a cap out of circuit using a scope though and swapping which end of the cap is grounded.
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i am led to believe it is different in amps and pedals depending on the situation, from the same people who told me it was irrelevant in guitars
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For what it's worth, I could hear almost no difference at all between the different caps in that YouTube clip - at least no more than could be due to variances in picking. Not even with the 0.033 cap versus the 0.022s.
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I believe materials can make a difference in amps based on making a couple of the same circuits with different components, but if the tolerances of the parts are +/- 10% that is probably going to make a bigger difference. Bigger than using polyester orange drops vs polyester tubes (not all orange drops are equal in terms of material or construction).
In amps and pedals the signal you hear is almost certainly passing through a range of capacitors, but in a guitar that doesn't happen. You hear the signal that doesn't pass through the cap, right? That's probably why the value is more critical than the type of cap.
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using a PIO cap gives me a warm fuzzy feeling, and like Wez I do think the sweep of the tone control is nicer.
either way, for the money they cost I will certainly keep using PIO for any new guitar modifications. i won't be going back and changing the sprague orange drops in my existing guitars though ;)
as dmoney more or less already says, an "orange drop" is just a packaging method, and depends on whats on the inside!
i do think that "vintage" wiring does make a worthwhile difference though, even with a less premium cap.
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Do you mean by "vintage wiring" "50s wiring"? If yes, I fully agree.
Cheers Stephan
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Do you mean by "vintage wiring" "50s wiring"? If yes, I fully agree.
yes, exactly :D
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thought I'd ressurect this thread by asking the question.
do you just leave the volume pot with no caps on? or resistors? when changing the pots in the danelectro yesterday I noticed the old pots had a smaller cap and also a resistor attached.
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probably a treble bleed circuit
(http://www.tremolo.pl/Przystawki2/Modyfikacje_i_ciekawostki/treble-bleed_mod%20104.jpg)
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this looks like a good replacement: what do you think? ripp off or worth it?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mullard-Mustard-Treble-Bleed-pickup-tone-upgrade-335-Les-Paul-SG-Strat-Tele-KIT1-/121064865310?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item1c30073e1e (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mullard-Mustard-Treble-Bleed-pickup-tone-upgrade-335-Les-Paul-SG-Strat-Tele-KIT1-/121064865310?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item1c30073e1e)
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I'd say rip off.
The mullard cap, NOS, blah blah blah is mostly marketting speak and largely guff.
EDIT: Infact it's mostly laughable
I use a 180pf ceramic in my PRS a la this schematic. http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/schematics/schem08/custom3waytoggle.pdf (http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/schematics/schem08/custom3waytoggle.pdf)
It does essentially the same thing. Keeps the highs when you roll off the volume off to a certain point.
I've tried a treble bleed mod that uses the resistor, but this works best for me personally. I found the last mod like this I tried was just too bright when rolling down the volume and made me sound thin. The PRS way sound great for me.
The shipping on my ebay listing is dumb and for the mod it isn't worth it. Maplin probably has the bits but might be expensive still.
all i'd do is go here - http://www.bitsbox.co.uk (http://www.bitsbox.co.uk). A cap and resistor will be less than £2 including shipping.
I'd also do some research about cap and resistor values used for this treble bleed mod. Lots of people suggest using different values or even experimenting till you find something that works best. Already Wez's post above differs from the values shown in that ebay link. There is no need to spend money on NOS caps or resistors for this. 1/4watt metal film or carbon comp will be fine.
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I thought all tone caps were much of a muchness till I tried real deal Bumble Bee caps - there is something in the way they roll off the top end without getting muddy that I really like, plus they seem to bring out the mids a little too.
As for whether they make a difference with the guitar tone on full, probably not. As for fully off, its not a setting I ever use.
In the grand scheme of things, £20-£30 to get me closer to the tone I want isn't unreasonable - its all the small things that add together and make your tone special. Sometimes it can be about degrading your signal too, depends on your goal. Its all subjective.
For me personally and my style (manipulating the volume and tone a lot), its worth putting in these old Sprague caps.