Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: GuitarIv on February 13, 2013, 01:22:31 PM
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Hey guys,
I visited a small musicstore in my town yesterday since my bassist has been urging me to do so and it was worth it. Great service, friendly fellas and a small but well selected stock of gear.
There was an Orange Dual Terror standing around I wanted to test for ages as I'm a sucker for their tone, but never found a 2 channel amp by them that would suit me. However this baby has everything I want, and more than enough bite with a TS in front of it, I love it.
Now seeing that it "only" has 30 watts, how competetive do you guys think is it in a full band setup? I'm not going for the omgneed100watts attitude here, I just wanna know if it's worth to get that amp from a giging situation point of view.
Thanks and cheers
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It should be more than enough. I feel like anything over 15 watts and you're just going higher for more headroom. A 100w amp is only 3db louder than a 50w amp, it's just that it stays clean longer.
However, seeing the music you play I don't know if you want a low wattage head with cranked tube distortion. I'd think you'd be more after pre-amp distortion, which is something I personally would look for in a 50+ watt head because of the punch.
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Depends on the amp _and_ cab I bet, but anyway: I'm playing a 18W (2x6V6) head thru a 4x10 marshall cab with low sensibility loudspeakers (about 95db), and even on a confortably large outdoor stage I could not turn the volume all the way up (and that was with a rather loud band).
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It depends a bit on how the wattage is measured. Some people claim AC30s are louder than 50w Marshalls.
But yeah, I would say 30watts is enough!
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Definitely enough.
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Easily enough! I played with my band for a while using a 40w Fender Hot Rod Deville. I couldn't even get the volume past a quarter of the way up. I reckon you'll be fine with 30.
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It depends on the amp. My Cornford Roadhouse 30w (2 x EL34) pumps out more volume than a couple of 50w Marshalls I've used in the past (Jubilee and 2000 series). I've also got a Laney VC30 (4 x EL84) that I've never been able to get anywhere near full volume at gigs.
I don't use 'clean' much, I'm more in the medium gain area. If you need loud pristine clean you might be better off with 50w.
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The Orange TC30 I bought yesterday is silly loud. I gave it a good cranking today while all the neighbours were (I really hope they were...) out. It got painfully loud... I would be VERY confident I could compete with a drummer.
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I can't use the full potential of my Rockerverb 50 in my current band. Thirty watts is def. enough, unless you play in a wallbreaking metalband.
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I'll joing the throng and say that it should be enough. Only once in 5 years have I had to have my 30w (Laney VC30) at anything like full tilt.
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Easily loud enough, clean crunch or balls to the wall. I love mine & it's certainly as loud as a 50w class a/b.
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It depends a bit on how the wattage is measured.
A watt is a watt is watt... ;)
Some people claim AC30s are louder than 50w Marshalls.
I thought anyone here would have known the difference between watts and decibels, and what "sensitivity" means when it come to loudspeakers... To make a long story short:
- loudness is measured in decibels (sound pressure), not watts (electrical power)
- decibels are log - each time you double the power, you only get 3 more db (=> +/- 10% more perceived loudness)
- a loudspeaker's sensitivity is how many decibels it produces for 1 W at one meter distance
- guitar loudspeaker's sensitivity range from (+/-) 9db to 104db
So if you know your maths: a 15W amp into a 104db loudspeaker == a 30W amp into a 101db loudspeaker == a 60W amp into a 98db loudspeaker == a 120W amp into a 95db loudspeaker.
The resulting tone might not be the same ("There are more things in heaven and earth..." <g>) but technically speaking no one needs more than a 15watters - and yes indeed, a Vox AC30 is already quite loud. Now depending on your favourite's speakers sensitivity, your amp's topology, OT and tubes and the kind of tones you're after you might need a 50watters to get "that" tone, but that's about the maximum OT power you'll ever need IMHO (as far as I'm concerned I just fail to see any use for anything above 25W, and that's with fairly low sensitivity loudspeakers, but YMMV).
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get a 0.5 watt amp and put it through an 8x15 cab
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Thanks for all the answers guys,
the thing is I finally need a good amp. I already talked to Toe-Knee about him building me one, I tested the Orange and I've been thinking about the EVH 5150III 50 Watt. I'm still unsure. As far as the stuff I play goes, it ranges from Sylosis (modded Marshall JCM800s and Orange Thunderverbs) over Revocation (EVH 5150III) to Decapitated (EVH as well, at least live). I'm not only in the metal department, I do play blues, funk and rock occasionally, so there's lots of stuff to consider. The Orange has the nice option of changing the values between 7, 15 and 30 watts, but then again as TheyCallMeVolume said I don't know how much the pure tube distortion will suit my styles. The EVH is awesome, though the 2 channel approach still leaves me a bit unsatisfied as I'm planning to use an Octaswitch for switching and the clean and crunch channel are packed together. The amp Toe-Knee would build would solve the switching problem, would be a strict 2 channel monster and in the SLO department, but as student I'm always on a tight budget. So I'm really considering all my options atm.
Cheers
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While a watt is a watt is a watt... I wouldn't be surprised if some companies round down their clean output power. Say you buy a 100watt head, thats just the label. If you do an actually peak power test you might get 110watt or 120watt peak clean power before the output valves go into break up.
I've played some 25-30watt heads in band situation and to be honest struggled to keep up or get the sound I wanted. Part of that issue was just the amp voicing, but I've been at that point where the output valves are distorting at the same time the preamp is full of distortion/compression. I had to dial the gain out the preamp and then it was all this weird balancing act and I was still having issues.
When I played shows, I borrowed the use of cabs a lot. So the point about speaker sensitivty becomes lost, because you might end up using any old speakers. I'd most commonly end up with cabs containing Celestion G12T-75's (97dB) or Vintage 30's (100dB). Those speakers not only have the 3dB difference in sensitivity but the frequency responese of the speaker will effect how loud the speaker appears also (since volume perception is also frequency dependant).
If you can play with your own speakers all the time and your own amp thats cool. If you know that and every gig you'll be mic'ed up and have good monitoring then fine... but when I was just touring with a head sometimes I had to get over the band in a small packed room and the only mic was on the vocals. I'm not sure I could have done that with 30watt. Would have been pushing it. Couldn't do that with my old VS100 valvestate even with every dial on 10, and I tried (in Harrow).
Also, when people say they had the master volume at 2 on a 100watt head, and it was loud... thats fair enough. But peak clean headroom is often reached when you get your dial up to 5 (12 oclock). 100watts is not at the maximum travel of the dial. SO your actual output level is a bit obscure since the dials are a reference and nowhere near a real scale.
If it was me, I'd have a think about the situations I might find myself playing in. What might be available in venues you're likely to play as I mentioned above. I'd rather have a 50watt that sounds good at low volumes for high gain stuff, than drive a 30watt head way into power valve saturation trying to be heard. But thats just me.
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It depends a bit on how the wattage is measured.
A watt is a watt is watt... ;)
As a electronics engineer, I would like to agree. Naturally speaker sensitivity plays a part, but I also know marketing has its part to play in this, as well as measurement technique. As Dmoney implies, some frequencies are more cutting than others which may make things appear louder.
Unless I've measured something myself and know the method used, I prefer to take power measurements with a pinch of salt.
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You're on a tight budget but you're considering anything from the Orange, which is relatively cheap, to a custom built SLO type clone. If you're looking for a really good amp I'd say spend as much as you can afford. I know price is no guarantee of quality but it's also true that you get what you pay for.
I'd be a bit put off by the Terror because of the single EQ control for each channel. I really like to have a 3 band EQ for fine tuning at gigs. Also, for heavy-ish metal type tones you would generally be looking at 50w plus EL34 or 6L6 equipped out stages rather than Class A 4 x EL84 which are GENERALLY know to be a touch light in the low end department although I can't speak for the Orange.
Are there any local bands using a Dual Terror ? Can you get to hear one in action at a gig ? Anyone that would loan you one for a rehearsal ? Does the shop do amp hire ? I've made the mistake in the past of buying an amp that sounded great in the shop by itself but just didn't cut it in a live mix.
If you can afford a hand built amp then you must have a lot of amps to choose from. What else have you tried ?
Just saying - choose carefully and do your best to ensure you make the right choice.
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Richard, when I say tight budget, I'm saying it takes a long time to save up a decent amount of cash. Whilst I know that one shouldn't buy lots of cheap stuff and rather less, more expensive but better gear, I'm really hating the fact right now that I don't own any decent amp. That's the reason I'm looking for the best solution and best bang for the buck. Truth is I'd love to get myself the SLO type amp built by Toe-Knee as he's a really nice fella, the sound clips sound very promising and he really seems to know what he's doing, but that would pretty much mean saving up until the end of the year. Maybe I'm just unpatient, but I hate playing death metal through a Micro Terror (allthough it's serves that purpose better than expected :P).
As far as amps go, as said right now I only find the Dual Terror, the EVH 5150III 50 Watt and the SLO type to be the right ones for me. I don 't want a 6505 as the clean channel sucks, I can't find a decent 50 watt dual channel JCM800 that would not have to be modded and all the other manufacturers don't do it for me...
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Maybe you could try a JCA50H. You might want the depth mod if you're playing metal. I like it... i know Toe-Knee isn't the biggest fan, but that shouldn't be hard to add. 2 channel sort of thing with shared eq.
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Maybe you could try a JCA50H. You might want the depth mod if you're playing metal. I like it... i know Toe-Knee isn't the biggest fan, but that shouldn't be hard to add. 2 channel sort of thing with shared eq.
It's grown on me a lot since i've changed my cab and speakers. I think it was just the way it reacted with the v30s and the peavey cab was already quite hefty in the lows.
I was just going to recommend the JCA amps. I can't remember off the top of my head though but i think they only have the crunch/lead channels. However you can get some fairly decent cleans on the crunch channel if you set the amp up right.
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I dunno what the differences are between the SLO clean/crunch and the HotRod circuit, maybe you could make it more clean.
I know the crunch channel is more like a JCM800 pre and a not all that clean, but at least with the dual master you could maybe crank the crunch master volume and control the level with the preamp gain. Should keep it cleaner or longer.
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While a watt is a watt is a watt... I wouldn't be surprised if some companies round down their clean output power.
Or round them up sometimes too - I don't know as much as you do wrt/ tube amps technology but I wonder how one might get *clean* 18+ watts from a pair of EL84 with no nfb...
But anyway:
If you can play with your own speakers all the time and your own amp thats cool. If you know that and every gig you'll be mic'ed up and have good monitoring then fine...
(...)
If it was me, I'd have a think about the situations I might find myself playing in. What might be available in venues you're likely to play as I mentioned above. I'd rather have a 50watt that sounds good at low volumes for high gain stuff, than drive a 30watt head way into power valve saturation trying to be heard. But thats just me.
Makes sense, lots of good points here...
Fact is I do play with my own cab (which is rather inefficient so I don't think I could get _less_ output volume anyway <g>), and never had to play much louder than rehearsal level in a live situation - it was either loud enough or going thru the PA. FWIW I sometimes whished it _wasn't_ going thru the PA so I could run my amp at the sweet spot (fairly clean power section, so you got to push it to get that "about to break up" tone, sustain and response which is what I'm looking for - using the preamp and/or pedals for more distortion).
Now even through the same inefficient cab, using a Fender HRDx (40W) which is supposed to have a rather early breakup for a Fender amp, I just _never_ needed (nor even could) push it loud enough to get any power stage saturation - it just drowned the drummer way before that point (and I'm not talking about a jazz drummer here). I wonder who would ever play THAT loud that the drummer can't even hear himself ???
Just my 2 cents, really...
As a electronics engineer, I would like to agree.
Uhu... Ok right, looks like I should have shut up :lol:
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Will check out the Jet City amps, thanks guys. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't I read something about them no longer producing them?
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I'm sure I've read that they've been discontinued. Andertons don't sell them any more. Their website seems to still be active though......
Amend: just had another look and the site's security cert has expired.
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They aren't discontinued they've just been dropped in the UK and parts of the EU.
I imagine due to the fact they can be hit and miss where reliability is concerned. I've had to fix two in the last year alone. JCA100h & JCA100HDM
in the latter the OT was dud the other just had some burnt out screen grid resistors
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I watched a couple of demos of the Jet City stuff. I thought at lowish gain they sounded very nice but with the pre-amp gain up high they sounded awful.
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They aren't discontinued they've just been dropped in the UK and parts of the EU.
I imagine due to the fact they can be hit and miss where reliability is concerned. I've had to fix two in the last year alone. JCA100h & JCA100HDM
in the latter the OT was dud the other just had some burnt out screen grid resistors
this is actually the FIRST time I hear about broken jet cities in YEARS
maybe these were caused by bad tubes or use (no load or something), which is pretty common with any tube amp
I'd take a jet city over a modern laney, marshall or vox any day when it comes to reliability
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They aren't discontinued they've just been dropped in the UK and parts of the EU.
I imagine due to the fact they can be hit and miss where reliability is concerned. I've had to fix two in the last year alone. JCA100h & JCA100HDM
in the latter the OT was dud the other just had some burnt out screen grid resistors
this is actually the FIRST time I hear about broken jet cities in YEARS
maybe these were caused by bad tubes or use (no load or something), which is pretty common with any tube amp
I'd take a jet city over a modern laney, marshall or vox any day when it comes to reliability
To be fair these are the only broken ones i have come across. It's not like theyre on a bugera level!
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I watched a couple of demos of the Jet City stuff. I thought at lowish gain they sounded very nice but with the pre-amp gain up high they sounded awful.
the 20w version only sounds good at a very narrow volume range
in my experience, around 3,5-4 with v30 speakers
in lower volumes they sound bad like the videos and over 4 (VERY LOUD), the el84's start to mud everything up, as with any other el84 amps under high gain situations
I've heard great things about the jca50 and 100, including from original soldano owners and most clips sounded pretty good to me
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I watched a couple of demos of the Jet City stuff. I thought at lowish gain they sounded very nice but with the pre-amp gain up high they sounded awful.
the 20w version only sounds good at a very narrow volume range
in my experience, around 3,5-4 with v30 speakers
in lower volumes they sound bad like the videos and over 4 (VERY LOUD), the el84's start to mud everything up, as with any other el84 amps under high gain situations
I've heard great things about the jca50 and 100, including from original soldano owners and most clips sounded pretty good to me
The JCA50/100 do sound good! More so with an OT upgrade. With the OT upgrade i'd happilly put them up against a lot of modern amps tonewise
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To be fair these are the only broken ones i have come across. It's not like theyre on a bugera level!
:lol:
I sold a bunch of new tube set to a friends studio and he's always complaining how the tubes don't last and always redplate or even crack the glass
he has 2 bugeras and a $%&#ed up jcm 900 that had a burnt power transformer
:lol:
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If your playing any sort of metal you need the headroom of a 100 watt head, it has nothing to do with actual volume but the sound of amp.
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Thanks for all the answers guys,
the thing is I finally need a good amp. I already talked to Toe-Knee about him building me one, I tested the Orange and I've been thinking about the EVH 5150III 50 Watt. I'm still unsure. As far as the stuff I play goes, it ranges from Sylosis (modded Marshall JCM800s and Orange Thunderverbs) over Revocation (EVH 5150III) to Decapitated (EVH as well, at least live). I'm not only in the metal department, I do play blues, funk and rock occasionally, so there's lots of stuff to consider. The Orange has the nice option of changing the values between 7, 15 and 30 watts, but then again as TheyCallMeVolume said I don't know how much the pure tube distortion will suit my styles. The EVH is awesome, though the 2 channel approach still leaves me a bit unsatisfied as I'm planning to use an Octaswitch for switching and the clean and crunch channel are packed together. The amp Toe-Knee would build would solve the switching problem, would be a strict 2 channel monster and in the SLO department, but as student I'm always on a tight budget. So I'm really considering all my options atm.
Cheers
Decapitated have never used EVH amps, all of their good sounding records are mainly triple/dual rectifiers mixed with various solid state amps. Most people that have seen them live the past couple years said they were using ENGL powerballs.
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Decapitated have never used EVH amps, all of their good sounding records are mainly triple/dual rectifiers mixed with various solid state amps. Most people that have seen them live the past couple years said they were using ENGL powerballs.
Dude I saw them 2 months ago. Vogg uses an EVH 5150III live now.
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get the newer peavey 6505+ 112 60w combo
it's pretty cheap
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Luckily, there's one standing around in a music store nearby. Will check it out.
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Luckily, there's one standing around in a music store nearby. Will check it out.
great :D
if you score it, you could upgrade it with a proper speaker later
a v30, g12k100 or classic 80 should make it spit some serious fire
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Planning to get a Zilla Super Fatboy with two V30s or one v30 and one G12H75 Speaker. That should have enough fire :D
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GuitarIV does this help.Clip using Dual Terror through Blackstar 2x12. I have since bought a Zilla cab last week had 1 rehearsal sounds great loaded with vintage 30's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGs-3NqOxH4&feature=share (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGs-3NqOxH4&feature=share)
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Thanks Keith! Sounds nice, although not the kind of music I play regularly :P
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Thanks Keith! Sounds nice, although not the kind of music I play regularly :P
No prob im gettin too old to be a widdler, old rock stuff is what I grew up with but I appreciate all kinds of players :D
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I like your tone on that Keith, very present ,unmessed with good sounding tone. Sounds miles better than your mates whose got too much echo. DT fan myself, hilariously good value for less than a monkey.
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I like your tone on that Keith, very present ,unmessed with good sounding tone. Sounds miles better than your mates whose got too much echo. DT fan myself, hilariously good value for less than a monkey.
Cheers for the comments much appreciated. The other guitarist was using TSL 122 combo 100 watt and hes a bit quiet on that. Funnily enough he's gone down the low wattage route and using Hayden Mofo 30 watt now.