Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: drphibes on May 04, 2013, 01:16:44 AM
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Hi all
I am looking to upgrade the pickups on my PRS Zach Myers Se and at the moment I am just deciding what pickups to go for.
The tones that I am looking for are Sex Pistols, Nirvana, Def Leppard, ACDC, Steve Stevens etc etc.
Tim from Bareknuckle has recommened the Riff Raff set to cover the most styles I want while the Rebel Yell would obviously be a good choice for the Steve Stevens tone.
Now my PRS is a three humbucker guitar and the question I have is what kind of pickups could I choose if I decided to upgrade all three pickups ?
PRS class the pickups in this guitar below
Treble Pickup PRS Designed SE Treble Humbucker
Middle Pickup PRS Designed SE Bass Humbucker
Bass Pickup PRS Designed SE Bass Humbucker
Other main specs are
BODY
Top Wood Beveled Maple Top with Flame Maple Veneer (no veneer on opaque finishes)
Back Wood Thick Mahogany
NECK
Number of Frets 22
Scale Length 25"
Neck Wood Mahogany
Fretboard Wood Ebony
Thanks
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I must say that my first thoughts were either Riff Raff or Rebel Yell. Either would be a good choice. If you were replacing all three, I'm a little less sure as I always find the middle humbucker to be the problem on these guitars. Mmmmm......
I think if it was me, I'd go with a Rebel Yell in the bridge as it makes sense to put the hottest pickup there so you're not too confined by the choice of pickup in the other two positions. The Rebel Yell will give you plenty bite in the bridge and obviously nail that Steve Stevens tone. As you're looking for a range of styles out of your guitar I'd then put an Emerald in the neck. It's easily my favourite neck pickup so I'm clearly biased but I think it will really suit all of the mahogany in your guitar and the AIV magnet gives you access to a neck tone that is so sweet you wouldn't believe and is very versatile, which would be handy given the range of tones you're after. Finally I'd put a Riff Raff in the middle, probably a bridge version. It will give a nice alternative to the other two and being slightly brighter than the Rebel Yell should allow it to sit well in that position.
No doubt someone with better knowledge of Riff Raffs and Rebel Yells etc. will tell me I'm talking rubbish but that's what I'd be inclined to try. :D
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the emerald sounds like the perfect middle ground option if you can't decide between a riff raff and a rebel yell in the bridge
this and a calibrated riff raff set for the middle and neck positions, so you can eventually try the bridge riff raff in the bridge if you're not fully satisfied with the emerald (or just for the experience)
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Thanks for the suggestions they are definately what I am after.
Hopefully there will be more options given over the weekend and I can then look at making a final choice for this guitar.
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Interesting that Eric suggested an Emerald in the bridge as that thought did cross my mind too but as you'd already expressed a strong interest in the Rebel Yell it made sense to put that in the bridge and use the Emerald in the neck instead while accommodating the Riff Raff in the middle. Having said that, Eric knows more about the Riff Raff than I do and I can see his suggestion working well too or maybe an Emerald in neck and bridge and a Riff Raff in the middle.
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Some really good options coming up here, only problem is what to choose :D
Slartibartfarst42 - I read your great review on the Emerald and it sounds really nice but then again I dont think I have read many reviews saying any Bareknuckles are bad !!
At the moment I am thinking of possibly going with the Emerald in the neck and then buying a Rebel Yell bridge and Riff Raff bridge.
Going off Tims advice I am tempted to put the Riff Raff into the bridge and stick the Rebel Yell in the middle.
I will be paying a guitar store to carry out the changes in the guitar so if possible I would like to get the pickups in their "good positions" in one hit because I dont really want to keep paying out having them swapped around.
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I can see the logic of that for sure. My only concern with that would be that generally speaking, your hottest pickup goes in the bridge and they tend to get progressively a little bit weaker as you move towards the neck because there is greater string movement towards the neck so you need less power. That was my reasoning for having the Rebel Yell in the bridge and Riff Raff in the middle but perhaps someone with more technical knowledge than myself could offer an opinion on your proposed arrangement.
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I can see the logic of that for sure. My only concern with that would be that generally speaking, your hottest pickup goes in the bridge and they tend to get progressively a little bit weaker as you move towards the neck because there is greater string movement towards the neck so you need less power. That was my reasoning for having the Rebel Yell in the bridge and Riff Raff in the middle but perhaps someone with more technical knowledge than myself could offer an opinion on your proposed arrangement.
Your theory does make sense to me unless somebody else can offer any ideas on what positions these pickups should go to cover the sounds mentioned in my first post.
Funny thing is you would think the hardest part would be getting the money together to buy the pickups, but it is a hard task making actual choices aswell :)
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I sympathise, I really do. I go the the tortures of hell every time I go to buy new pickups, though I think I'm getting better with practise. The last lot I bought, the decision was made in no time at all but as I learn more about the pickups, more about my personal preferences and more about the language used to describe the sound in my head, it becomes a little easier.
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Hi all
Well I went forward with the upgrade of my PRS Zach Myers guitar and had a Rebel Yell bridge and neck and a Riff Raff bridge fitted in the middle position.
Sadly I am very underwhelmed with how the guitar sounds.
Without any distortion the tone of the guitar seems fine but when I try any kind of distortion with my Orange Tiny terror combo and with my Mooer dark secret pedal ( Rat clone) there seems to just be a mush of tone with no clarity of sound at all.
The guitar sounded better with the stock PRS pickups which seems very odd to me.
I have tested my other guitars with this setup and they seem fine to me.
Both of my other guitars are Signature STR1 (les paul type) , one is fitted with Barenuckle Nailbomb pickups and the other has EMG Hetfield active pickups.
The Signatures sound a million times better than my PRS at the moment.
Any ideas on what might be wrong ? The pickups where fitted at the store so I have not installed these myself.
Thanks
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Very Odd. I've NEVER heard of any Bare Knuckle pickup being described by the word 'mush. indeed, one of the reasons I buy BKP as opposed to other pickups is that I know 100% that virtually no amount of gain turns them to mush. The Seymour Duncans and PRS pickups that came stock in my SL3 and CU24 both gave out long before BKP. These pickups are nothing if not articulate and I would imagine that brighter pickups like the Rebel Yell and Riff Raff would cut through even more.
Two possibilities leap to mind:
1) Pickup height. Bare Knuckles are VERY sensitive to it; much more so than other pickups I've tried. Generally I've found 2mm for the bridge pickup works well but they'll stay articulate even closer. Moving them further away opens them up a bit.
2) PRS guitars can have some odd controls on them. When I first felt that the Emerald was a bit too bright, Tim told me it had something to do with the pots or caps they tend to use so it might be something to do with that. I'm afraid I can't remember the specifics as I'm not that technically minded.
Contact BKP and ask them about it but believe me, Bare Knuckles DO NOT mush, or at least, they never have with me and I use a fair bit of gain.
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That deffo sounds like there is something very wrong there. RY and mush? No sir.
The first thing I would do is check all the electronics. As Slarti mentioned might be something that was in the guitar or maybe a wiring error when installing the PUs. Those things happen easily and I have made mistakes in that department more times than I care to admit.
Sides that again, what Slarti said.
And on BKPs and mush: I have played riffs and powerchords on the neck PUs of my axes (Mule, Aftermath, Mississippi Queen, Manhattan (!), Supermassive, Crawler) for minutes with rather substancial gain (Tiny Terror gain @ 2 o´clock + overdrive) without noticing. xD Went for over 10-15 minutes on occasions too when I had a rather slight low cut in action too.
There was an apperant difference when changing back to the bridge, but on their own even my necks are less mushy then a lot of stock bridges I have encountered. Though admittadly the necks have a darker voicing in comparison.
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Like the others said, must something wrong. Even my Crawler doesn't sound mushy and that's one of the fattest and darkest BKP's.
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Hi
After looking on these forums I think one that might need looking into is the height of the pickups.
To look at the distance between the stings and the pickups could be approx 3mm so I might try and play around with the height to see if that is giving me this tone.
When I stated a "mush" tone it is not a dark tone but it just lacks any real definition, at one point I thought the guitar had gone out of tune but on checking it was intune !
If I cannot solve the problem myself I will end up taking it to a guy who has done some work for me in the past but I thought it would be worth asking for fellow members help here.
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I always prefer to ask around here and possibly fix things by myself when I have something not working. Helps you get a good understanding of things.
Height whise, I personally like mine to be pretty far away, so when you fret the strings on the highest fret I want at least 2mm then. Most of the time I go to 3 or 4mm. For my taste and setup that works well.
The further you are away the more open, clear and woody the sound gets. When you get closer you get more compression hotness and fatness. But usually you would have to go insanely near with BKPs to get a undefined sound.
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Definitely sounds like a wiring issue. I can't imagine any circumstances in which an RY bridge would sound 'mushy'. Too bright in the wrong guitar maybe but never mushy. When my RYs were installed the guy made a mistake with the wiring - not like yours but it's distinctly possible that something's been done incorrectly. Come to think of it the guy that fitted an IT bridge in my Strat had some problems with the wiring and he's a very experienced builder.
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One point that I forgot to mention was when the pickups where fitted a coil tap was also done so maybe this could be adding to a possible wiring problem ?
Its just odd that the guitar sounds nice clean but quite naff trying to rock the thing !!
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One point that I forgot to mention was when the pickups where fitted a coil tap was also done so maybe this could be adding to a possible wiring problem ?
Its just odd that the guitar sounds nice clean but quite naff trying to rock the thing !!
To be clear here, do you mean coil split or coil tap. I assume you actually mean the coil split as that is meant most of the time (coil taps are very rare don´t think BKP actually makes those), but I wanne be sure.
A coil split is when you turn off one of the coils of the HB and are left with effectivly a SC.
A coil tap is when you turn of a part of the winding of each coil and only acces the inner part, resulting in an underwound sound.
Did you do the basic check taping on bobbins to see if only the right coils are on in each position? Seems basic, but helps rule out something.
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My knowledge of guitars is very low im afraid and that is why I had the store fit the pickups.
I am sure the guy asked me if I wanted coil tapping ? Maybe I misheard him but basically the guitar now gives a different tone by pulling the one of the tone knobs.
I was messing around today trying to compare my Signature str1 that has BKP Nailbomb pups with the Prs Rebel Yell fitted pups.
When on the low E string I would have thought the Rebel Yell would give a higher tone than the Nailbomb but this did not seem to be the case.
I would say the Nailbomb pup gave a clearer more defined sound when playing the low E .
I have never ventured inside the wiring of a guitar so would not really know what to look for but if you can offer any guidance I could get the screwdriver ready !!
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Ok, that clears some things up. Now I know that it is a coil split which was called wrongly, as the coil tap can only be enabled by the guy winding the PUs, not the one installing them in the guitar.
What I would like to have you do to rule out some very crude wiring error is to plug your guitar in, take a screwdriver (or something similar) and use it to to gently tap on the pole pieces (the metal things on the PUs). When the PU is on you get a very distinct sound from doing that and nothing when its out.
This way you can check that in the bridge position you get those sounds from the bridge and not the neck for example.
Also you can pull the tone knob and if I am correct one only one of the two rows of pole pieces of the selected humbucker should give you a sound. To be precise the one with the screw pieces should go silent, while the flat ones still give you something.
That is a real easy test to do to rule out basic and big wiring mistakes. Good thing to know. Since I learned about it I have done it on all my wiring attempts.
Also helps you understand what which position and switch actually does.
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Agreed. It's simple and basic and while there shouldn't be an error that fundamental if it's been done by a store, it wouldn't be unheard of. In the past I've had pickups fitted out of phase and in the wrong position. It could be that it's been wired so that when you have the selector switch set to the bridge pickup, you actually have the neck pickup engaged. That would certainly account for a mushier sound than you'd expect from the bridge.
Another thing you could easily do is check that the correct pickup is in the correct position. Take the backplate from the guitar and unscrew the pickups from the front (you'll probably have to remove the strings for this or at least loosen them a hell of a lot) and then check that the wire marked 'neck' or 'bridge' in the back actually goes to the pickup in the correct position. All Bare Knuckle pickups are clearly marked 'neck' and 'bridge' or even 'middle'.
Finally, does anyone know what the situation is with pots and caps on this model guitar? I wouldn't want you to go to any further expense that wasn't needed but changing to BKP 550k pots and BKP Jensen caps could help, though I suspect the problem is more fundamental than that. One thing is sure however; it certainly can't be that the pickups are naturally mushy under gain.
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Another thing you could easily do is check that the correct pickup is in the correct position. Take the backplate from the guitar and unscrew the pickups from the front (you'll probably have to remove the strings for this or at least loosen them a hell of a lot) and then check that the wire marked 'neck' or 'bridge' in the back actually goes to the pickup in the correct position. All Bare Knuckle pickups are clearly marked 'neck' and 'bridge' or even 'middle'.
Agreed, though I am unsure if unscrewing the PUs will be nececary. I always hate to do that to strings. If you know which poti or which switch position corresponds to which PU, or should at least you should be able to check with just taking of the back cover and the tap test I described.
Since the tag marking bridge or neck model is usually at the end of the wire you can just see where it goes electronics whise and check if it works with the right pot and in the right switch position.
When you see the wires marked neck go to the poti that was always your bridge one and you get sound in the wrong switch position you know something is wrong.
You can always loosen the strings or take them off, but I think this could be a waste of a perfectly fine set of strings that could be avoided.
This is really basic stuff but anyone who has ever had a panic attack because his computer would not turn on and went on to waste half a day trying to fix it only to realise that the power supply was not connected knows that you gotta rule out the incredibly basic stuff you (or others) would never get wrong xD
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Hi
Thanks for the suggestions I will see what I can find when I get a spare minute or two.
Cheers
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Ok, that clears some things up. Now I know that it is a coil split which was called wrongly, as the coil tap can only be enabled by the guy winding the PUs, not the one installing them in the guitar.
What I would like to have you do to rule out some very crude wiring error is to plug your guitar in, take a screwdriver (or something similar) and use it to to gently tap on the pole pieces (the metal things on the PUs). When the PU is on you get a very distinct sound from doing that and nothing when its out.
This way you can check that in the bridge position you get those sounds from the bridge and not the neck for example.
Also you can pull the tone knob and if I am correct one only one of the two rows of pole pieces of the selected humbucker should give you a sound. To be precise the one with the screw pieces should go silent, while the flat ones still give you something.
That is a real easy test to do to rule out basic and big wiring mistakes. Good thing to know. Since I learned about it I have done it on all my wiring attempts.
Also helps you understand what which position and switch actually does.
Hi
I managed to get five minutes today and did the tapping on the pups like you suggested and the results are below
Bridge position selected - tap the Bridge (Rebel Yell) and you can hear a sound via the amp - tap the Middle (Riff Raff) and again you can hear a sound via the amp - tap the Neck (Rebel Yell) and there is no sound.
Middle position selected - This is a repeat of the results of when the Bridge position is selected, you can hear the taps from both Bridge and Middle pups and nothing from the Neck.
Neck position selected - The only sound hear is from the Neck pup, no sounds when I tap the Middle or Bridge.
Is this right or does it look like the wiring is indeed wrong ?
Thanks
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That sounds wrong to me because you don't appear to have an option that just gives you the bridge pickup by itself and under quite a bit of gain, that's the pickup you want to keep things tight and clear.
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Just to update a little more I also did the same test pulling the tone knob out like Kiichi suggested and The results are the same.
The Neck pickup is isolated from the other Two but the Middle and Bridge do not seem to individual and joined somehow ?
I am guessing the wiring is just wrong on this guitar ?
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If the tone knob being pulled out is supposed to engage a coil split but nothing changes, there's something wrong there too. If it's coil spliy you should only be getting a noise from the pole pieces but not the screws and when the knob is pushed back in you should go back to full humbucker mode and get a noise from both rows of the humbucker. It seems to me like you've solved your problem as clearly they're not wired up correctly to the switch and they're not split properly either.
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Yes, that does sound very wrong. This is why this simple test is so great.
Really explains why the guitar sounds wrong.
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Just to update this thread.
I took the guitar to have a guy look at it for me and within a couple of minutes he knew what was wrong with it. After a 15-20 check on the wiring the guitar has now come to life and sounds superb.
Thanks for all the help .
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Ah that is good to hear! Congrats! Enjoy that sound =)
Also I would love to hear some impressions now that it works (always interresting), so if you get some play time in and have time a few words would be cool.