Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: ShaneMQ on May 08, 2013, 01:48:53 AM
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Hey guys,
I'm looking to upgrade my bridge pickup in my '77 Les Paul. I've done a ton of research on these forums, but I'm still having trouble pulling the trigger. I play through a Diezel Einstein, and want something that can run the gammut from Lizzy-esque LP tone to heavier thrashy stuff. I was looking hard at the HD's, but also the RY's, Emerald and Cold Sweat. The big difference between most of the comparatives I've read on this board is that my LP has a rosewood fretboard, and isn't as bright as the late 70's LP's with the ebony boards. Any adivce?
Thanks!
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Hi and welcome!
In a not so that bright LP I can see the Emerald working wonders. It is pretty bright, which should sit very nicely and it obviously can do Thin Lizzy, but it is also a favorite among metal players, cause it can go high gain as heck. With a Diesel (if I recall they do have quite a bit of gain on tap) you should be able to get nice thrash stuff outa there.
The others you mentioned would work too in their own way, with the HD probably least good in this axe, but I would say Emerald!
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I've had a holydiver and currently have an emerald in the bridge of my PRS SC245, fairly warm sounding lp style guitar. Holydiver was a bit tubby, still sounded really good but not quite tight enough for thrash or open enough for the classic stuff (to my tastes at least). Emerald does a good job of both but I prefer it with a 300k volume pot, as it was a bit toppy before hand. Never tried a rebel yell, might be a good halfway point between the two.
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Thanks for the responses guys. It's interesting you say that the HD might not be tight enough; I was worried about it being too articulate and tight of a PU (which actually seems to be what a lot of people say about the Rebel Yell). The thing with my LP is that it's still pretty bright - it's got that maple neck but a rosewood board, so it's not as crazy bright as the late 70's LPs w the maple neck and ebony board. I was using the SD Custom Customs for awhile, and they sounded great, but I want something with a little more character. Emerald sounds like it might be the way to go.
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the black dog sounds really good in my '78 greco les paul standard (maple neck as yours, brazilian rosewood board)
I had the dog installed it in my '73 gibson les paul custom (mahogany neck, ebony board) and it wasn't as great as it is in the greco, but by the time, I played and recorded with the les paul custom through a 50w Einstein and it did sound great
the dog in the greco sounds brighter and clearer, with more articulation, and has a quite meaty and midrangy tone tone
didn't try the greco through a real diezel, though (but me and my bandmate have diezel based preamps, so we're not far off)
Diezels sound better with lower output pickups, in my opinion (and most experienced diezel users seem to agree with that, including Peter Diezel himself)
send a message to our forumite ventura
BUT, my first picks would be the emerald or the riff raff IF you don't mind having bright sounding pickups
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If you haven't upgraded the pots, I would start there. My '84 LPC sounded really muddy and dead till I replaced the pots (300k volume, 100k tone) with 500k all around.
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Thanks guys. I have upgraded the pots, which definitely helped. My LP is a weird beast - I can never get the neck pickup to have enough clarity; it always sounds a bit muted/muddy (tried the original T-Tops, Burstbucker 1's, etc.), and the bridge PU always sounds significantly brighter and sometimes thin. I had a Duncan Custom Custom in the bridge which helped round out the tone a bit, but I've been wanting to put BK's in there awhile for more character.
How are the Emerald's in the neck? Would an Emerald and Black Dog combo, or even an Emerald and HD/RY be reasonable? Or, Eric, do you think that the HD is just way too high output (my Einstein is a 100w, so it is a little different than the 50w).
Thanks again guys - you've been extremely helpful.
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You'd be swell advised the check the values of the pots in your Les Paul - Gibson used weird values over the years.
You want 500k pots all round in that Custom.
I'd say Emeralds too, but if you want fatter bridge and a clearer neck - Abraxas all the way.
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To me, this is screaming out for a Cold Sweat bridge and Emerald neck. Both will give you great Thin Lizzy tones but the bridge will have a bit more balls to it than the Emerald so also gives you access to the heavier stuff while the Emerald neck is super sweet and very versatile. I think that's a combination you'd love.
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I'd say emeralds as well. The Holy Diver I had, I found way too smooth and dark for my taste. I know some guys will think I am crazy, but since you mentioned thin Lizzy and thrash, my thoughts would go to Emeralds or Rebel Yells.
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Thanks guys. I have upgraded the pots, which definitely helped. My LP is a weird beast - I can never get the neck pickup to have enough clarity; it always sounds a bit muted/muddy (tried the original T-Tops, Burstbucker 1's, etc.), and the bridge PU always sounds significantly brighter and sometimes thin. I had a Duncan Custom Custom in the bridge which helped round out the tone a bit, but I've been wanting to put BK's in there awhile for more character.
How are the Emerald's in the neck? Would an Emerald and Black Dog combo, or even an Emerald and HD/RY be reasonable? Or, Eric, do you think that the HD is just way too high output (my Einstein is a 100w, so it is a little different than the 50w).
Thanks again guys - you've been extremely helpful.
Gibson makes an ceramic neck pickup (490?496?) that it matches with the 500T. From my experience I would say that is what you're basically you're looking for, as a BKP version with a bit less output (it clears up great though). I would have guessed that the Cold Sweat Neck is the closest to that.
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Thanks guys. I have upgraded the pots, which definitely helped. My LP is a weird beast - I can never get the neck pickup to have enough clarity; it always sounds a bit muted/muddy (tried the original T-Tops, Burstbucker 1's, etc.), and the bridge PU always sounds significantly brighter and sometimes thin. I had a Duncan Custom Custom in the bridge which helped round out the tone a bit, but I've been wanting to put BK's in there awhile for more character.
How are the Emerald's in the neck? Would an Emerald and Black Dog combo, or even an Emerald and HD/RY be reasonable? Or, Eric, do you think that the HD is just way too high output (my Einstein is a 100w, so it is a little different than the 50w).
Thanks again guys - you've been extremely helpful.
not sure about the neck emerald, but I believe it's hotter than the bridge black dog
no, the HD isn't too high output
should be about as hot as the sh-11 and might even feel a little less hot, since it won't compress your tone like a seymour
I had a diver in the same guitar right before the black dog and also played it through the einsten
voicing is quite similar and both sounded great, but the dog extra openness and articulation (due to lower output) makes it blend in more nicely with the diezel kind of saturation, in my opinion
but the holy diver won't sound bad at all
it's an amazing pickup
as a reference, the diver works amazingly well for Doug Aldrich's tones, and he was a custom custom user for years before he got his suhr signature pickup (which is considerably hotter and bassier than both, more like a neck miracle man)
here's a holy diver les paul clip with a diezel VH4: http://tonefinder.com/?section=id&value=895 (http://tonefinder.com/?section=id&value=895)
sounds a little edgy on the clip, but it's a quite smooth pickup (maybe that was the old ceramic version that became the cold sweat?)
here's a rough clip I did 6 years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1RafxMYU5w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1RafxMYU5w)
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Now Eric, would you say the HD can be a bit on the tubby side for standard tuning, or more for when you downtune? I've used the JB for as long as dirt has been on this planet, but have had an increasing interest in the BKP offerings. The HD was on my list of interest, as is the Alnico Nailbomb and BlackDog.
Oh, and you might remember me as Soulcrusher_X on the old HCAF forum. and NO! You still can't have my grey Les Paul. ;)
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Welcome here JTG! Depending on what you want exactly I think the HD can be very much for you. One of the first descriptions I have heard of it said it caters to the same taste as the JB does, but with the traditional BKP flavour and generally added goodness. That of course is a simplification though, there is much more depth to its tone and qualitys than I could describe so shortly.
Most people start with one and follow with several others, so just pick your poison, chug it and be a happy drooling man like a lot of us. =)
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Now Eric, would you say the HD can be a bit on the tubby side for standard tuning, or more for when you downtune? I've used the JB for as long as dirt has been on this planet, but have had an increasing interest in the BKP offerings. The HD was on my list of interest, as is the Alnico Nailbomb and BlackDog.
Oh, and you might remember me as Soulcrusher_X on the old HCAF forum. and NO! You still can't have my grey Les Paul. ;)
The Holydiver has SOME of the characteristics of the JB. It's thick, smooth and fluid but it's far more articulate than the JB with no mud at all, the tone is a lot sweeter and it's not quite as compressed so it retains some PAF DNA. The Holydiver is a lot more versatile than the JB. The A-Bomb is a VERY different beast. It's tighter and far more aggressive than even the Miracle Man. I found it to be completely brutal.
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Welcome here JTG! Depending on what you want exactly I think the HD can be very much for you. One of the first descriptions I have heard of it said it caters to the same taste as the JB does, but with the traditional BKP flavour and generally added goodness. That of course is a simplification though, there is much more depth to its tone and qualitys than I could describe so shortly.
Most people start with one and follow with several others, so just pick your poison, chug it and be a happy drooling man like a lot of us. =)
The Holydiver has SOME of the characteristics of the JB. It's thick, smooth and fluid but it's far more articulate than the JB with no mud at all, the tone is a lot sweeter and it's not quite as compressed so it retains some PAF DNA. The Holydiver is a lot more versatile than the JB. The A-Bomb is a VERY different beast. It's tighter and far more aggressive than even the Miracle Man. I found it to be completely brutal.
Thanks guys! Nothing wrong with drooling, some sweet tones would be totally worth it. :D
I've read a few reviews on the HD which say it is what the Duncan JB *SHOULD* be. All of it's sonic strengths (drive, liquid leads, cuts easily through a mix), but none of it's weaknesses (sometimes icepick highs, sometimes flubby lows). Like I said before, I've used the JB for a long time and every time I've tried to use a different pickup, I just cannot quit the JB. I have generally been able to find all of the tones I've needed with the JB. If the HolyDiver has some of those sweet JB-like qualities, but with some extra icing on top, then maybe that's the one to start with.
The reason I was looking into the A-Bomb bridge, is the description says it sits in between vintage and modern. So, it's heavy enough for brootalz if that's what the need is, but it can clean up decent for more classic tones. By aggressive, are they more powerful? More treble? More grind?
I was also looking at the BlackDogs since one of the dudes from the band Godsized (whom I actually found out about because of the BKP site) uses them. The other guitarist uses the VHiis. I think I'm more accustomed to higher-output pickups, though, for their feel. I don't necessarily need all the power to push the preamp, but they usually feel more comfortable to play to me.
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The A-Bomb has an agressive character, present topend and quite some output. More then the Holy Diver by example.
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I've read a few reviews on the HD which say it is what the Duncan JB *SHOULD* be. All of it's sonic strengths (drive, liquid leads, cuts easily through a mix), but none of it's weaknesses (sometimes icepick highs, sometimes flubby lows). Like I said before, I've used the JB for a long time and every time I've tried to use a different pickup, I just cannot quit the JB. I have generally been able to find all of the tones I've needed with the JB. If the HolyDiver has some of those sweet JB-like qualities, but with some extra icing on top, then maybe that's the one to start with.
The reason I was looking into the A-Bomb bridge, is the description says it sits in between vintage and modern. So, it's heavy enough for brootalz if that's what the need is, but it can clean up decent for more classic tones. By aggressive, are they more powerful? More treble? More grind?
Just "aggressive" - I think you have to hear it to understand 8)
I've had a JB (early 80s one) in my SG and replaced it with a ABomb. The JB had some qualities and I can understant why one may like it, but it was also lacking the dynamic, definition, note separation and articulation that are BKP's trademark and IMHO the main reason why you love or hate BKPs. To make a long story short: BKPs will respect your playing, for the better (yum) and worse (and yes, sometimes it hurts :mrgreen:).
The ABomb is a very different beast from the JB. wrt/ output level the ABomb is AFAICT not far from the JB but it at first seems quite a bit lower due to the aforementioned BKP specifities - this pup remains tight and articulate whatever amount of gain you use. Now the voicing is very different, the ABomb has incredibly tight lows, a throaty and very dense low-mids growl thing, full blast aggression in the upper mids (not spikey or harsh, but well... aggressive :mrgreen:), and clear highs. It's a real killer for heavy riff work, but while not lacking weight and body on leads it doesn't have the fluid/liquid thing of the JB and none of it's compression. It took me some time to get used to it, and it still shows any playing mistake so it's not as confortable as the JB or even the Crawler for lead work, but boy it sound huge and massive and yet cuts thru a dense mix like a hot knife thru butter.
Is it heavy enough for br00talz ? Well, I'm not into metal but "br00talz" is kind of an understatement as far as I'm concerned: this pup it takes no prisonner and makes no mercy, it kills, maims and slaughters :twisted:
And yes, while doing all of the above, it's not a one trick pony and also works surprisingly fine for more classic rock tones - with a twist - and even bluesy stuff when you roll down the volume. It of course retains a more modern voicing but is still very organic - thanks to the alnico magnet - and can get quite close to a (less bright and open) RiffRaff. It will obviously not sound just like a vintage PAF/Patent #, but despite the (justified) "90s metal" label it can really do much more and nails 70s hard-rock tones (AC/DC, early BÖC etc) - or at least it does in my SG.
Final disclaimer : I've only used this pup in my rather dark SG and I'm not sure how it would work nor if I'd like it in a brighter guitar, but you can check Sam Coulson's vidz on youtube, the guy as some nice tones from it in a LP.
I was also looking at the BlackDogs since one of the dudes from the band Godsized (whom I actually found out about because of the BKP site) uses them. The other guitarist uses the VHiis. I think I'm more accustomed to higher-output pickups, though, for their feel. I don't necessarily need all the power to push the preamp, but they usually feel more comfortable to play to me.
Most hi-output pups are very compressed, which can make them feel "more confortable". If that's what you hope to get from the higher output BKPs you may not find yourself at home, even the Crawler - possibly one of the most compressed BKPs - has way more dynamic than a JB.
My 2 cents...
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Thanks B. I appreciate the insight. I checked some of those Sam Coulson vids, and he gets some really killer tones. I think I hear what everyone means by "aggressive". I hear that word so many times when comparing pups, but no one can really explain it. Is it the tone? Bite? Output? So, thanks for the honesty. To compare it to a Duncan, the A-Bomb almost sounds like the Duncan Custom ceramic, but without the harshness, better definition and clarity, but with a fuller tone. Kinda sounds like it's got some of that PAF DNA mixed in with some more grunt. Anyway, you may have shifted my interests a bit over to the A-Bomb.
I appreciate all the help and insight guys. Very awesome.
~Jay
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I checked some of those Sam Coulson vids, and he gets some really killer tones. I think I hear what everyone means by "aggressive".
Well, that's the least aggressive side of the ABomb, really. This vidz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDLXQ60_oI) demonstrates the more br00talz side of the beast.
I hear that word so many times when comparing pups, but no one can really explain it. Is it the tone? Bite? Output?
It's mostly about tone I'd say. The ABomb as enough output to push your amp but nothing over the top neither.
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What's nice about the tones from that thing, is no matter how heavy it sounds, it still has a sweet "woodiness" to the tone. I'm really beginning to like it. My bank account might not, though. lol
Thinking I need one.
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Now Eric, would you say the HD can be a bit on the tubby side for standard tuning, or more for when you downtune? I've used the JB for as long as dirt has been on this planet, but have had an increasing interest in the BKP offerings. The HD was on my list of interest, as is the Alnico Nailbomb and BlackDog.
Oh, and you might remember me as Soulcrusher_X on the old HCAF forum. and NO! You still can't have my grey Les Paul. ;)
lol
whenever I read your nickname, my first thought is always "DELICIOUS GUN METAL GREY LES PAUL CUSTOM"
I liked the HD in both standard and low tunings
it's a fat and middy pickup, but doesn't lack high end in a les paul
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Thanks B. I appreciate the insight. I checked some of those Sam Coulson vids, and he gets some really killer tones. I think I hear what everyone means by "aggressive". I hear that word so many times when comparing pups, but no one can really explain it. Is it the tone? Bite? Output? So, thanks for the honesty. To compare it to a Duncan, the A-Bomb almost sounds like the Duncan Custom ceramic, but without the harshness, better definition and clarity, but with a fuller tone. Kinda sounds like it's got some of that PAF DNA mixed in with some more grunt. Anyway, you may have shifted my interests a bit over to the A-Bomb.
I appreciate all the help and insight guys. Very awesome.
~Jay
yes it has a similar character to the sh-5 and sh-14, but sounds more articulate and less compressed than both
it's not as middy as it appears in the chart
it does have a lot of low mids and treble, but the center and upper mids are more flatter and cleaner, kinda like the vhII, which is what gives it its subtle PAF impression, despite of the aggressive top and output
it's quite punchy for an alnico pickup
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So, sorry for completely running away with this thread. lol Anyway, I found two or three youtube clips besides the ones suggested by BigB with both the HolyDiver and the A-Bomb. Same player, same rig, same kind of guitar. The HD sounded smoother and more "liquid" I guess. The A-Bomb had more bite, cut, grind, fuller tone with a hint of that vintage "woodiness". Plus, the fact that the pair of other vids went from classic tones to drop-B without falter sold me. I think I'll start with that one and work my way through the BKP line. lol I might be hooked.
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I suppose you watched firejack018's videos with peters amps
:D
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IMO the rebel yell is far closer to a more musical JB than a holy diver. I found the holy diver to be somewhat too dark in my guitars for my taste. I do not understand why everyone compares it to a jb. Not a comparison I would make. The rebel yell is a little less aggressive than the nailbomb and lower output. It is one I would definitely consider.
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IMO the rebel yell is far closer to a more musical JB than a holy diver. I found the holy diver to be somewhat too dark in my guitars for my taste. I do not understand why everyone compares it to a jb. Not a comparison I would make. The rebel yell is a little less aggressive than the nailbomb and lower output. It is one I would definitely consider.
I was looking at that one, too. It's brighter than the HolyDiver?
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I suppose you watched firejack018's videos with peters amps
:D
Why yes. Yes, I did. lol
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IMO the rebel yell is far closer to a more musical JB than a holy diver. I found the holy diver to be somewhat too dark in my guitars for my taste. I do not understand why everyone compares it to a jb. Not a comparison I would make. The rebel yell is a little less aggressive than the nailbomb and lower output. It is one I would definitely consider.
Now I'll grant you I've never actually tried a Rebel Yell but your comment still surprises me. I believe the Rebel Yell is based on a Nailbomb and I HAVE tried an A-Bomb, which was a country mile away from being like a JB. The Rebel Yell would have to be a vastly different beast to a Nailbomb to come anywhere remotely close to sounding like a JB. Conversely, you can say that the JB is smooth, thick and fluid, all of which apply to a Holydiver. Where the Holydiver differs from the JB is that there's no mud, it's far more articulate, has a sweeter lead tone and has more of all the best qualities of the JB. I feel fairly sure about this as my guitar came with a JB as stock and I switched it to a Holydiver. It was clearly very similar but also far better in every way.
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they both have only SOME tonal characters in common with the JB
but the holy diver was in fact based on the JB and has really close specs, while the rebel yell has a different winding, different wire type and gauge, and I suppose it has a different magnet length, like the nailbomb
the rebel yell definitely has a similar upper mid spike to the JB, but I can't hear much more of a resemblance than that
definitely a cleaner, brighter, more open and less bassy pickup
more like an 80's version of the emerald, and not much like its big cousin nailbomb
the holy diver is no JB clone, but does have more of the JB character, imo
Tim himself stated that a few times in the past, but he seems to avoid this sort of comparison since BKP business turned big
If you want to get close to the JB but without the mid spike try the Holydiver.
I'm going to chime in here and say for the majority of S style guitars the Holydiver is going to be closest to the original JB tone-well as close as I'd want to get anyway-great pickup by the way, the original JB and certainly one that rightly claims it's place in rock history.
In a LP the new Rebel Yell does have a similar mid push to the early JB although it is a touch brighter to my ears and the bass is a little tighter too-as per usual this will be down to the asymmetrical wind and scatterwinding too.
The early JBs I've tested-one of which was Phil's- have all been symmetrically wound, part of the SD philosophy-which accounts for the way it behaves in the high end.
The new Holydiver, DC16.2K Alnico V-it'll eat your JB for breakfast :twisted: -seriously though I've worked hard to remove the mid honk that plagues the JB, open out the high end a touch and produce a more harmonically rich mid-similar amount of power though.
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IMO the rebel yell is far closer to a more musical JB than a holy diver. I found the holy diver to be somewhat too dark in my guitars for my taste. I do not understand why everyone compares it to a jb. Not a comparison I would make. The rebel yell is a little less aggressive than the nailbomb and lower output. It is one I would definitely consider.
Now I'll grant you I've never actually tried a Rebel Yell but your comment still surprises me. I believe the Rebel Yell is based on a Nailbomb and I HAVE tried an A-Bomb, which was a country mile away from being like a JB. The Rebel Yell would have to be a vastly different beast to a Nailbomb to come anywhere remotely close to sounding like a JB. Conversely, you can say that the JB is smooth, thick and fluid, all of which apply to a Holydiver. Where the Holydiver differs from the JB is that there's no mud, it's far more articulate, has a sweeter lead tone and has more of all the best qualities of the JB. I feel fairly sure about this as my guitar came with a JB as stock and I switched it to a Holydiver. It was clearly very similar but also far better in every way.
I use a nailbomb as well, but I retain my comments that in my experience the holydiver does not sound like a JB to me at all. Then again, the JB is pretty defined by that high mid spike. The holy diver I had was actually I would describe as dark and somewhat prone to sound like a neck pickup, even though it as a bridge pickup in the bridge position. My JB's (and I have had 4 or 5 over the past 20 years) were bright, and somewhat brittle. It seems like the eqs were drastically different to me. The rebel yell has far more high mids, and a familiar eq curve to the JB. (I Believe Steve Stevens has noted that as well.)
To me the holy diver was darker than I like, thick with a lack of highs. That lack of highs kind of made me initially like it, but eventually I wanted to brighten it up a bit. And it felt like I never could get the guitar bright enough with the holy diver. After trying it in 4 guitars. (LP, Strat, SG, and a humbucker esquire)
For all the comparisons to the JB it gets, I prefer the Rebel Yell as it has a similar eq curve, but is much more organic and clear without the fizz or overcompression.
I actually don't care about similar specs, but how things sound. And the Rebel Yell to me sounds far more like a JB than a nailbomb.
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I actually think it depends on the guitar. I have the Holydiver in my Strat (which is middy, bright and spanky as hell) and the HD in it sounds brighter than my Painkiller in my Jackson...