Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: MerlinTKD on May 13, 2013, 02:34:30 PM
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So I have an LTD M-207 (basswood body, rosewood fretboard, drop-G, 11-49+68 strings) with Painkiller's in it; it's been great, I love the sound, but I'm in a situation now where I need something a bit more versatile. My writing partner and I are exploring combining our styles to get something new: me bringing metal/prog, she bringing punk and New Wave (Thomas Dolby, The Cure). It's a lot of fun and we've come up with some fantastic ideas, but I'm becoming less and less satisfied with the tone I'm bringing to the table. Her tone tends to be dark, not crispy at all, out of guitars with PAF-style pickups, and the tones I can get with PK's in basswood just aren't mixing well.
There are lots of options, I know, but here's the rub: we're tuning down a full step, her a six-string in D standard, me in Drop-G. I'm not wedded to drop tuning, but I've written so much stuff that way already I don't want to necessarily rule it out for the future.
What I'm ideally looking for is a bridge pickup tight enough to handle the low G (likely ceramic, I imagine) that can go back and forth between modern metal and punk-ish rock, and a neck pickup that can go from jazzy (George Benson, Pat Metheny) to fluid prog leads (I'm assuming something AlNiCo). I love BKP's, not a fan of actives, so what can I replace my PK's with that will give me what I'm looking for?
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Firstly I thought was the Holy Diver cause it sits well in basswood and is very versatile, but after reading the rest I am thinking Emerald might be better. With that one you can get jazzy and fluent neck tones which can shred and sing and the bridge is tight enough I recon and with itīs brightness could sit very well with the darker, not crisp tone of your partner, adding in what she does not bring. It is also very versatile enough to handle modern metal (its somewhat of a favorite for that) and punk-ish rock.
Otherwise maybe blackhawks.
My thoughts anyhow, depends a lot on what exactly you think your sound needs compared to the PK and in relation to your partner.
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Thanks Kiichi! The PK in my guitar is already pretty bright, or high-middy really, something darker but still tight (in the bridge) is what I'm hoping for. From what I've heard, the HD isn't very tight down as low as I tune, but I could be wrong! I was wondering about Nailbombs, or Black Dogs, or Riff Raffs.... just not sure at all! :lol:
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Like Kiichi, my immediate thought was Holydiver but then I went off the idea when i read the rest of your post. My second thought was also Emeralds but my concern would be that the bridge would be too bright for basswood. I think the Emerald in the neck will certainly do what you want and is ideal in many respects but I'd be tempted to put a Black Dog to go with it in the bridge. That would give you a very versatile combination that will cope with your low tuning without being overly powerful. The Nailbomb could work but it is absolutely brutal even in alnico form and easily tight enough for your tuning. If you're after a very aggressive sound in the bridge it could work but I'd have thought a Black Dog/Emerald combo would be more versatile and more suited to your needs.
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I hear you about the Nailbombs... I've heard good things about Black Dogs in extended range, as long as it stays tight that low. The Emerald seems awfully bright, I'm looking for something smooth in the neck, kinda the opposite of, say, Tosin Abasi or Tesseract. Maybe the Emerald is, I only have the official clips to go by. ;) I'm liking the idea, just wondering if the BD/Emerald is the way to go, or a BD set?
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I originally bought an Emerald set but had to send the bridge back because it was too bright. The neck isn't anything like as bad and that's been a real keeper. It's my favourite neck pickup of all. The Alnico IV magnet in the neck makes it beautifully smooth and fluid as well as versatile. Previously the Cold Sweat was my favourite neck pickup but the Emerald is more versatile as it has much better cleans as well as a sweeter lead tone.
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PK is high-mid heavy, more than any other BKP. If you decide to go ceramic, the pickups with the least center mids are the Miracle Man and Cold Sweat. Their voicings are different, MM has a lot more low mids. Nailbomb and Aftermath have more center mids, while not being high-mid heavy.
Nailbomb was also brought up, heres a clip of a Alnico V Nailbomb in a downtuned guitar 2 Channel Titan Amp - Detuned Demo w/Alnico V Bareknuckle Nailbomb (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDLXQ60_oI#ws)
Be aware that Nailbomb and Cold Sweat are somewhat related. A ceramic Nailbomb is essentially an overwound Cold Sweat, which means that is has more mids and less highs than the Cold Sweat. The Alnico V Nailbomb naturally has a softer response and more mids than the ceramic version. Tight it is, still.
There are a number of pickups that can do what you want them to. As you already know :) So some tone references could work best.
-Zaned
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As per usual now I agree with Slartibartfarst42. The brightness thing you hear about the emerald is about the bridge, the neck is another monster. Really sweet, fluid, singing stuff.
On count of the bridge, if you want to go darker (expected you to do like one bright, one dark kinda combo, but you know both your sounds, also relating to amps and such better) the BD seems like a nice choice I must agree.
If you would like to go ceramic, I think I would prefer the CS over the MM for your work.
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Thanks guys! This is really good info! I checked with Nick @ The Axe Palace, he's not big on the Black Dog in basswood, seems to be leaning towards the C-Bomb for the bridge. The biggest question I have about that is, will a C-Bomb be versatile enough for what I'm doing? Or, would the Cold Sweat be a better choice? Dark enough to blend better, for sure, but not too powerful?
Another wrinkle, I may have the opportunity to pick up an Apex 2 pretty reasonably; if so, the PK's would go in that mahogany body and let that be the drop-G guitar, and tune the basswood LTD either to A standard or drop A.
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Obviously versatile is subjective but the alnico nailbomb does blues to hair metal to thrash incredibly well best pickup ive ever played. I cant imagine a more versatile pickup very agressive but very responsive and clear.
I like the black hawk but i personally dont think its versatile. Great for full on metal but i must admit i dont play fusion so maybe thats where im missing out.
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Interesting. I think the Nailbomb is very dependent on the guitar it's in. I tried the A-Bomb and it was the most aggressive pickup I've ever come across and no matter what I did, I couldn't get rid of the aggressive 90s Metal feel. At first I tried it in a maple neck-thru Jackson where it was awful and then in a PRS SE Custom 24 (mahogany body and maple neck) where it was a bit better but still too aggressive. I've found the Holydiver and even the Miracle Man to be far more versatile in both guitars.
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Interesting. I think the Nailbomb is very dependent on the guitar it's in. I tried the A-Bomb and it was the most aggressive pickup I've ever come across and no matter what I did, I couldn't get rid of the aggressive 90s Metal feel. At first I tried it in a maple neck-thru Jackson where it was awful and then in a PRS SE Custom 24 (mahogany body and maple neck) where it was a bit better but still too aggressive. I've found the Holydiver and even the Miracle Man to be far more versatile in both guitars.
It probably just clashes with your guitar(s),amp and/or taste :) I originally took it out of my custom strat, as it had this edgy thing you mentioned. I replaced it with a HD, but recently I felt that the mids were TOO pronounced to my taste. I also felt that the guitar had become warmer after a few years of playing, now being a very balanced and clear instrument. I put the Nailbomb back in, and it just works. Yes it is aggressive, but that irritating edge is no longer there. I always loved the bottom end thump it brought. I also like a strat to be wild and fierce.
I know the CS for example is brighter than a NB, but it's not always as simple as that. The frequency response of a pickup is what it is, and sometimes it can emphasize some (unpleasant) frequency in guitars voice that can make it sound aggravating, even though some other pickup with more highs can sound warmer.
-Zaned
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It probably just clashes with your guitar(s),amp and/or taste :) I originally took it out of my custom strat, as it had this edgy thing you mentioned. I replaced it with a HD, but recently I felt that the mids were TOO pronounced to my taste. I also felt that the guitar had become warmer after few years of playing, now being a very balanced and clear instrument. I put the Nailbomb back in, and it just works. Yes it is aggressive, but that irritating edge is no longer there. I always loved the bottom end thump it brought. I also like a strat to be wild and fierce.
I know the CS for example is brighter NB, but it's not always as simple as that. The frequency response of a pickup is what it is, and sometimes it can emphasize some (unpleasant) frequency in guitars voice that can make it sound aggravating, even though some other pickup with more highs can sound warmer.
-Zaned
I know exactly what you mean. I found that the A-Bomb was just 'too much' yet I wasn't really against the core tone, which I recognised as very good. I just felt it needed to be toned down a bit and tamed so I'd be happy to try it again if i had something like a Les Paul as I suspect all that mahogany would help to take the edges off it in the same way your guitar has done so by mellowing over the years. I also agree about the Cold Sweat as unlike the Nailbomb, I really liked that one.
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Hrm, interesting. I always learn so much here!! :D
You guys mentioned particular guitars having particular frequency 'personalities', as it were; I've been messing around with this guitar a lot the last few days, paying really close attention to what it sounds like through a number of different amps as well as various amp models in my Mustang, and I've noticed that, acoustically, it's light and middy, and when plugged in (with the PK's) the highs and high mids get emphasized as well, but the lows are, well, loose. I'm finding the root of my problem is that, to get a tight sounding low G, the high strings are excessively edgy, and when I darken the high strings (via amp settings), the low D and G become bassy - warm, not truly muddy, but not tight.
So I'm starting to accept that perhaps I'm asking something of this guitar is doesn't naturally do well: being clear at a low tuning. As I mentioned before, I may be able to get an Apex2 reasonably, and if so will try THAT guitar in low G with the PK's (I hear they're fantastic in mahogany?).
In that case, what's the best sounding all-around pickup for a basswood 7 in standard tuning?
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If I was simply thinking of a very versatile pickup that sits well in basswood, I'd undoubtedly say Holydiver as it's the most versatile pickup I've tried. If you still wanted something for low tunings, it sounds like your options are limited. The tightest pickups would be Aftermath, Nailbomb and Black Hawks but I think you may find the Aftermath too dry and surgical and the Nailbomb is absolutely brutal, even in alnico form. The Black Hawks may be worth a go as they seem very versatile and give you alot of the things you'd like about actives while keeping the characteristics of passives that you want.
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Hmm, I've been listening to clips of the Holy Diver, it reminds me of the JB, but good! ;) (I had a Duncan Designed JB in that basswood 7 and it was horrible, muddy at all points, but it WAS a DD version). That's a definite possibility.
Perhaps HD in the bridge, Emerald in the neck? Or the Black Dog/Emerald combo you mentioned originally? Or an HD set? Gah, too many good choices!! :lol:
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The Holydiver does share some of the characteristics of the JB but it's far more articulate and won't turn to mush in the same way. I like it because it simply covers so much ground. Back down the gain on your amp a touch or use your guitars volume control and you'll get a very decent Classic Rock sound. Dial up the gain and you are into 80s Metal territory and shove an overdrive in front and it will really scream. At our last gig my Jackson was having some work done to it so I had to use the Holydiver/Emerald combo in my PRS for the whole set and that runs from Doobie Brother to Children of Bodom and the guitar coped just fine. It's certainly a very versatile set.
I've never tried the Holydiver neck but I believe it's quite different to the bridge.
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Two more questions and I'll leave it alone, I promise! ;)
- I'm liking the naturalness and versatility of the HD's in the clips I've heard, do they handle more modern metal as well?
- The Cold Sweat is obviously a bit less organic sounding than the HD, but would it be a better choice to cover classic to modern, indie/punk to metal-ish tones?
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No problem, I'm sure there's nobody on here who has a problem with you asking as many questions as you want. It's a lot of money to spend if you're not sure.
Firstly, the Holydiver and modern Metal. The natural home of the Holydiver is 80s Metal for sure so think of guitarists like Jake E. Lee and Doug Aldrich as well as those classic Dio albums. However, the Holydiver is not limited to that. It's a pickup that responds very well indeed to an overdrive pedal which will take it towards modern Metal levels of gain without it mushing up while retaining its core tone. I think I'm a very good example of what this pickup does. At my age I'm very much a child of 80s Metal so I tend to like my tone to be warm, rich, smooth, thick and fluid with aggression that isn't OTT. The Holydiver does this in spades but I also like the levels of gain you tend to get on more modern Metal as long as my sound doesn't turn to mud. I invariably play songs with quite a bit more gain than on the original so my overdrive, compressor and delay are engaged for about 85% of our set. My amp has the gain set to about 11 o'clock with the gain on the overdrive pedal set to about 10 o'clock. The level on the overdrive is set to about 2 o'clock. The compression is set at about 2 o'clock and the level on the compressor is about 10 o'clock. I also have a second overdrive that offers even more distortion that has the same settings as the first one but I rarely use that one with the Holydiver. That's more for when I use the Sinners on my Jackson. The Holydiver handles that much gain just fine and I think that's probably enough for most applications. I find that the more you drive it, the more it seems to show its teeth. It's never brutal like a Nailbomb but it's not 'polite' either.
Is the Cold Sweat better? That's a tough one to answer because I think it's down to personal tastes. It's a rather brighter pickup so I don't think it will sit quite as well in basswood and the ceramic magnet means it tends to have less of that organic warmth you get from alnico. It's also a tighter pickup and is more open sounding than the Holydiver. That open nature means it sounds a bit more like a PAF so Classic Rock tones are good and like many Bare Knuckle pickups, it will do a variety of things well though the cleans aren't as good as the Holydiver. Chords will be a bit crisper on the Cold Sweat but leads will be sweeter on the Holydiver. The Cold Sweat is probably better for your Indie/Punk material while the Holydiver is better for Metal. I suppose it may depend on whether you want things thick and smooth or tight and bright. Both are excellent pickups. I've used both and I really like both but I prefer the Holydiver. It's just a more versatile option and as I play most of the lead in our band, I prefer the better lead tones I get from it.
By all means ask more questions if you have any.
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Two more questions and I'll leave it alone, I promise! ;)
- I'm liking the naturalness and versatility of the HD's in the clips I've heard, do they handle more modern metal as well?
- The Cold Sweat is obviously a bit less organic sounding than the HD, but would it be a better choice to cover classic to modern, indie/punk to metal-ish tones?
Those are opposites, the HD middy with a round topend, the Cold Sweat has a scooped voicing and quite some treble. Downtuned to G the CS might be the better choice to keep the low end tight and retain enough sparkle.
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Yeah, the more I think and listen, the more the Holy Diver keeps presenting itself. Not sure how I'll tune this guitar, probably either A standard (Korn tuning, oh no! ;)) or drop-A, so I won't need the amount of clarity the CS (or the current PK) has.
Thanks, all who helped and answered!! Now all I have to do is layaway the Apex, pay that off, switch in the PK's, then save up enough for the HD set... :lol:
Thanks again, Slartibartfarst42 and everyone else!