Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: nomadx on May 21, 2013, 02:51:19 PM
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Hello, all.
This is my first post. Yippee!!
I picked up a Tradition S20 goldtop LP and it's all mahogany. It plays really well, but the stock pickups aren't doing if for me. They sound like they're meant for blues/bluesey rock (way too warm and tame). I write/record prog metal; heavy and clean. Far from anything blues!
I'm looking at upgrading the pots to CTS 500k and putting in a balanced pair of ceramic nailbombs. Is this a good choice?
Thanks much.
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Hi and welcome!
The Cbomb is certainly a good choice, should work great for prog metal. When I asked what to pick for the modern Petrucci tone Cbomb with Cold Sweat neck was usually the answer. The bridge gives you tighness, relative versatility, agression and while it is modern and has somewhat of a 90s metal feel to it, there is still some of the PAF woodyness in there, making it a great choice for prog metal.
The CS neck would be a good paring, as it does deliver very fluent leads and a warm clean tone, while being very defined.
As an alternative you could consider going Holydiver set or HD bridge with an emerald neck.
The HD would be a less agressive alternative to the NB, going for a bit more smooth musicallity, with thicker mids and a more organic feel. Many would say it is also more versatile then the NB, though less tight. The neck is also a great singing smooth afair.
As for the emerald neck, that one seems to be a perfect pair with the HD bridge. It is sweet as honey, open, smooth, fluent,...I heard it often described as a sweeter, more organic CS neck.
Depending on how modern or organic you want it Iīd say pick your poison with the NB CS or the HD EM, canīt go wrong with either.
Cheers!
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Ceramic Nailbomb and Cold Sweat neck would get my vote.
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Hi and welcome!
The Cbomb is certainly a good choice, should work great for prog metal. When I asked what to pick for the modern Petrucci tone Cbomb with Cold Sweat neck was usually the answer. The bridge gives you tighness, relative versatility, agression and while it is modern and has somewhat of a 90s metal feel to it, there is still some of the PAF woodyness in there, making it a great choice for prog metal.
The CS neck would be a good paring, as it does deliver very fluent leads and a warm clean tone, while being very defined.
As an alternative you could consider going Holydiver set or HD bridge with an emerald neck.
The HD would be a less agressive alternative to the NB, going for a bit more smooth musicallity, with thicker mids and a more organic feel. Many would say it is also more versatile then the NB, though less tight. The neck is also a great singing smooth afair.
As for the emerald neck, that one seems to be a perfect pair with the HD bridge. It is sweet as honey, open, smooth, fluent,...I heard it often described as a sweeter, more organic CS neck.
Depending on how modern or organic you want it Iīd say pick your poison with the NB CS or the HD EM, canīt go wrong with either.
Cheers!
Thanks for your thoughts, Kiichi. The clean sample given for the CS neck seems to have a bit more clairity that the NB. Is that the general feeling? I just want to make sure it sounds good for that LP chunk of mahogany I have. I do love what I'm hearing in the sample for the ceramic NB bridge. I just hope it will keep its personality in the LP.
Are there particular pots that are recommended?
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Ceramic Nailbomb and Cold Sweat neck would get my vote.
Thanks, Mr. Air. So far, I think I'm falling in line with that. I figured at first a calibrated set would work better together. I guess that's not necessarily true?
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I think the Nailbomb would be a good choice for your guitar and style of music, though I wouldn't immediately discount the alnico version as it remains the tightest and most aggressive pickup I've ever tried. Either the Cold Sweat or Emerald neck will work well but I've also heard good things about Painkiller and Miracle Man neck pickups, either of which might suit you.
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As per usual I agree with Slartibartfarst42. You might even add the Aftermath neck to that list, as I feel it produces a great fluid, full and modern tone, reminding me a lot of early Petrucci tones.
On the NB neck: Of course it is a good neck PU also, BKPs donīt really make sh*t after all, but it is the only BKP that actually is scooped. That term is sometimes used to describe the MM bridge too, but there it is not that the mids are lacking, but that the low mids are much more pronounced. With the NB neck it actually is scooped. If that fits your bill and you like that sound it might be for you, I have heard good things about it after all, but always the mids issue as a thing to concider.
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As per usual I agree with Slartibartfarst42.
We're going to start making a very good double act soon :D
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I think the Nailbomb would be a good choice for your guitar and style of music, though I wouldn't immediately discount the alnico version as it remains the tightest and most aggressive pickup I've ever tried. Either the Cold Sweat or Emerald neck will work well but I've also heard good things about Painkiller and Miracle Man neck pickups, either of which might suit you.
I went back and took a closer listen to the samples. The alnico NB does have a bet better presence in the low mids. I suppose the graphs would tell me that. :)
I've been talked out of the NB for the neck. I just have to determine which one for the neck?
As I've stated, I'm afraid that I have choose a pickup that is too warm in the lows and mids that it will be multiplied by the natural sound of LP style guitar, cancelling any crispness of the highs. Any Tradition, Epi or Agile owners with a similar setup?
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Having used both Cold Sweat and Emerald neck pickups I would seriously doubt they'd be swamped by the mahogany in your guitar as they're both pickups that are primarily made for Les Pauls even though they will work well in other guitars too. I've not tried either the Painkiller or Miracle Man necks myself so someone else may need to chime in but from what I've heard, I doubt either would struggle, especially not the Painkiller.
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Having used both Cold Sweat and Emerald neck pickups I would seriously doubt they'd be swamped by the mahogany in your guitar as they're both pickups that are primarily made for Les Pauls even though they will work well in other guitars too. I've not tried either the Painkiller or Miracle Man necks myself so someone else may need to chime in but from what I've heard, I doubt either would struggle, especially not the Painkiller.
Thanks, Slartibartfarst42. I think I've decided on the Painkiller for the neck. It does sound sweet. I'll still have to pull the trigger on Cbomb vs the Abomb for the bridge.
Any suggestions on pots? I have no idea what the stock ones are for the Tradition.
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The 550k pots from BKP are very good indeed.
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Okay. So I've done a lot of listening to soundclips from various sources and the nailbombs don't seem to be as tight as I thought for it's bottom end. Would the painkiller for a bridge be fizzy in the highs? I like the bottom end it provides. However, I heard the painkiller has an issue with lower tuning. I suppose I may be looking for perfection that simply is not there. It's my OCD!! :?
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That may well be so but I think we all get a little OCD about pickups. Firstly, I'd have to say that there is simply no way that I can see anyone finding even the alnico Nailbomb in any way even vaguely loose in the bottom end and I imagine the ceramic version is even tighter. It's not just that it's 'tight', you need to remember that the articulation you get with BKP is so phenomenal that pretty much every BKP has an element of tightness compared to other pickups. The BKP I've tried that is probably the most loose in the bass is the Holydiver and even that's tighter than something like a ceramic JB and a HELL of a lot more articulate, staying well defined long after my old JB turned to mush. The Nailbomb's on a whole new level beyond that to the point that when I tried it, I had the amp and overdrives all maxed out for gain and it was still as tight as a duck's arse! Both Nailbombs will be VERY tight, VERY articulate and VERY aggressive. I've not tried a Painkiller myself so I can't really comment on that one. Many people seem to like it though I have read from time to time about it being a bit ice-picky, but that may be due to the guitar it's in. The Nailbomb, certainly in the alnico form I tried, is quite a big, thick sound with plenty bottom end and couldn't be described as 'loose' in any shape or form.
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In an all mahogany guitar I wouldn't go with anything too mid biased as its already quite a mid focused wood. If anything I would say that something slightly mid scooped (or possibly more high mid focused) would be a better bet as you wont lose the high end and you'll get away from being too warm. It'll also mean that your clean sounds wont sound mushy or muffled.
I don't have any experience of high gain pickups, so I'm not even going to start recommending anything, but I'd probably drop an email to the BKP boys and ask them what they think will work in that guitar for the sounds you're after, as all mahogany construction guitars can be a bit more sensitive to pickup choice sometimes.
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That may well be so but I think we all get a little OCD about pickups. Firstly, I'd have to say that there is simply no way that I can see anyone finding even the alnico Nailbomb in any way even vaguely loose in the bottom end and I imagine the ceramic version is even tighter. It's not just that it's 'tight', you need to remember that the articulation you get with BKP is so phenomenal that pretty much every BKP has an element of tightness compared to other pickups. The BKP I've tried that is probably the most loose in the bass is the Holydiver and even that's tighter than something like a ceramic JB and a HELL of a lot more articulate, staying well defined long after my old JB turned to mush. The Nailbomb's on a whole new level beyond that to the point that when I tried it, I had the amp and overdrives all maxed out for gain and it was still as tight as a duck's arse! Both Nailbombs will be VERY tight, VERY articulate and VERY aggressive. I've not tried a Painkiller myself so I can't really comment on that one. Many people seem to like it though I have read from time to time about it being a bit ice-picky, but that may be due to the guitar it's in. The Nailbomb, certainly in the alnico form I tried, is quite a big, thick sound with plenty bottom end and couldn't be described as 'loose' in any shape or form.
Thanks, Slartibartfarst42. I truly appreciate your insight. I wouldn't call myself a "shredder". Lead playing is not my strongest suit and I see that a lot of folks love the nailbombs for the non-blurry characteristic during fast picking leads. These strengths carry into complex, heavy rhythms as well, correct? The C-bomb is said to have less bass, so I think the A-bomb may be better for me. Unless the bass in the A-bomb is too prominent or boomy in an all mahagany guitar.
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In an all mahogany guitar I wouldn't go with anything too mid biased as its already quite a mid focused wood. If anything I would say that something slightly mid scooped (or possibly more high mid focused) would be a better bet as you wont lose the high end and you'll get away from being too warm. It'll also mean that your clean sounds wont sound mushy or muffled.
I don't have any experience of high gain pickups, so I'm not even going to start recommending anything, but I'd probably drop an email to the BKP boys and ask them what they think will work in that guitar for the sounds you're after, as all mahogany construction guitars can be a bit more sensitive to pickup choice sometimes.
Thanks, Gary_goo. The painkiller mids are spiked quite a bit. The "ice picky" description of the painkiller does shy me away from that. I believe that can lead to fizz in situations where I might be using amp sims for recording.
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I'd say the bass on an A-Bomb was 'big' rather than 'boomy'. I tried it briefly in my PRS and it was better in that (mahogany body, maple neck) than in my Jackson (maple neck-thru) so I've always felt that it needed mahogany to tame the hairy edge it has in its very tight and aggressive tone. Chords don't blur together with a Nailbomb; it's too tight and articulate for that.
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I appreciate all of the input. I'm still left quite confused. The guys at BKP recommend the painkiller for the bridge. Looking at Bare Knuckle's official video demonstation material, I don't really even see painkiller mentioned. I guess it's a "close your eyes and shoot" situation. What's the return policy if I don't like my first choice? I'll try to narrow things down by reading and listening more. If I were in the UK it would be a lot easier to choose by simply going around the corner and placing my ears directly on the sound.
I suppose a good way to ask is which band are people trying to sound like with the nailbomb and which bands with the painkiller?
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ok, now I gotta post this again
here's an amazing c-bomb/cold sweat demo PDT_003
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t8dVF4lOrs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t8dVF4lOrs)
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BKP officially recommended the painkiller for a bridge. After a lot of google searching, it seems the painkiller is not as popular as their other offerings. Is it because the painkiller may be a little to over the top for any of the woods except for dark? I've only found one or two low quality clips of the painkiller bridge in an LP guitar. Just about everyone speculates the painkiller will sound awesome in an LP (all mahogany), mainly because they think it's too bright in lighter woods. I'm leaning towards agreeing with them. I'm sure the guys at BKP know what they're talking about.
The cold sweat neck seems to be the choice in most situations. Just looking at the specs, the miracle man neck looks to have similar freq response to the CS, but an output that matches the painkiller bridge a lot closer. Would the miracle man neck be a good combo for the painkiller bridge?
Thanks, everyone for your input.
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Hey man, just read through everything that's been written here and owning the Painkiller I'll tell you, don't dismiss it, especially not if you're considering it for a Mahogany guitar!
I have a PK Bridge and CS Neck combo in my 93 Jackson Fusion ("Fusion" describing the mix between a Jackson and a Gibson, it has a Mahogany Body and the shorter 24.75 inch scale) and those pickups sound fantastic in it. It's not all Mahogany, the Neck is made out of Maple with a Rosewood fretboard, still the guitar sounds naturally very full with lots of depth and body to the sound. The Painkiller just evens out the frequencies perfectly, having a big but tight and defined bottom end, punchy, clear and articulate mids with the right amount of highs, never sounding "ice picky" as some people judge it to be. I think it really depends on the scale and the wood, and for the Gibson Scale and Mahogany I'm pretty sure you will love it. I even could have put an Emerald or Rebel Yell into the guitar (which are said to be the brightest BKPs) and it still wouldn't be over the top, you could consider those pickups as well (as long as you have enough gain from your amp to fully saturate them). Regarding the sound, it always very responsive to your playing, clear as a tear, defined and translates the character of the guitar. The Coldsweat stays on pair with the Painkiller amazingly well and gives you great cleans with amazing fluid leads especially well suited to sweep picking. Hope that helps.
Cheers!
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Hey man, just read through everything that's been written here and owning the Painkiller I'll tell you, don't dismiss it, especially not if you're considering it for a Mahogany guitar!
I have a PK Bridge and CS Neck combo in my 93 Jackson Fusion ("Fusion" describing the mix between a Jackson and a Gibson, it has a Mahogany Body and the shorter 24.75 inch scale) and those pickups sound fantastic in it. It's not all Mahogany, the Neck is made out of Maple with a Rosewood fretboard, still the guitar sounds naturally very full with lots of depth and body to the sound. The Painkiller just evens out the frequencies perfectly, having a big but tight and defined bottom end, punchy, clear and articulate mids with the right amount of highs, never sounding "ice picky" as some people judge it to be. I think it really depends on the scale and the wood, and for the Gibson Scale and Mahogany I'm pretty sure you will love it. I even could have put an Emerald or Rebel Yell into the guitar (which are said to be the brightest BKPs) and it still wouldn't be over the top, you could consider those pickups as well (as long as you have enough gain from your amp to fully saturate them). Regarding the sound, it always very responsive to your playing, clear as a tear, defined and translates the character of the guitar. The Coldsweat stays on pair with the Painkiller amazingly well and gives you great cleans with amazing fluid leads especially well suited to sweep picking. Hope that helps.
Cheers!
Thanks, GuitarIv. You helped me commit! I just pulled the trigger and ordered a painkiller bridge and coldsweat neck (burnt chrome). I can't wait to get those installed! I think they'll step up my recordings a notch. Thanks, everyone.
If you care to give a listen to what I'm working on, check it out.
www.soundcloud.com/x-nomad-x (http://www.soundcloud.com/x-nomad-x)
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You're welcome, I'm sure you will like them :)
And if not, there's still an exchange policy ^^
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I'm probably going to change out all of the guts on my guitar. I'm going to put 500k CTS pots and I'm trying to determine which capacitors to use. Vitamin Q or orange drops? .022 or .047 rating for my setup; painkiller bridge and coldsweat neck?
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BKP 550k pots and BKP Jenson caps are superb.
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Thanks, Slartibartfarst42.
...and now back to our regularly scheduled programming. :)
I suppose I'll make it simpler; would you all use .022 or .047 rated caps for this setup?
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Nothing wrong with those values. Tried and tested. Other values work great too (personally always like smaller ones a tad more, but not by a lot) but that is all a matter of taste. Try those as you can hardly go very wrong with it and if you should end up feeling you need more or less you can do it.
In the end those values are pretty much standard for a good reason: They work great!
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Hello, knucklers! Well, I finally received my pups. They are a beautiful pair! Painkiller bridge and CS neck; both in burnt chrome. I dropped it off to my tech last night to install the pups, 500k CTS pots (push/pull for the tone knobs because I got the 4-conductor pups) and two tone factory .022 PIO caps. Can't wait to get my hands on the strings!!
Thanks, everyone for putting up with us noobs!! :)
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Thanks, everyone for putting up with us noobs!! :)
Ah come on, we knuckleheads like doing that. We were all there once. My first thread here...oh man. Plus we learn something new with almost all recommendation threads too!
Really looking forward to your thoughts on the PUs.
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Hit us up when you had the chance to spend some good amount of time with your upgraded baby and don't be afraid to ask more questions if you need help! Cheers :)
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Hit us up when you had the chance to spend some good amount of time with your upgraded baby and don't be afraid to ask more questions if you need help! Cheers :)
Will do. I hope to have it this afternoon or tomorrow. A watched "pot" never boils! I know...a sad attempt at humor! :)
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Hahaha :P
Looking forward to your results!
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After a couple of afternoons of playing, I have to say I'm a bit dissapointed. The upgrades didn't really "lift the veil" like I had hoped. The guitar seems to fight me when I'm playing; like it struggles to sing out. I thought the upgrades would bring it to life. Am I expecting too much?
Is it cheap wood, bridge, nut or etc. that makes this happen? Do les pauls just sound this way? Give it to me straight, folks!
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It shouldn't be any of those things or at least, I'd be surprised if it was. As you've changed the pots too, that eliminates another possible reason. It sounds like you feel there's a bit of a blanket over your tone at the moment and that doesn't sound right with those pickups and those pots. I can only think of three possibles:#
1) Pickup height. BKP are VERY sensitive to this so it's worth experimenting.
2) Incorrect wiring. It happens to the best of us. There was another thread recently where a guy had taken it to a tech to install everything and it still went badly wrong. Once the wiring was fixed it all started sounding wonderful.
3) Covers. The difference is marginal but I certainly found that open poled pickups cut through better. I love some of the covers but I'm not inclined to have anything other than open poled from now on.
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I'm not saying the tech didn't make a mistake, but he comes highly recommended and I have a considerable amount of faith in his knowledge. If there is something that can be done, it's most likely the pickup height. I'm not sure how the tech decides where the height is placed. I'll have to do some playing around with that. I've read where players are lowering the pickup to clear up the sound and then raising the poles to get the output back. Thoughts?
Don't get me wrong, the pickups definitely made a difference in the sound but I didn't get the WOW I was hoping for.
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I find that lowering the PUs takes out some output, makes them less hot and compressed and therefore adds back some openness and a bit woodieness too. Can bring out hights too. Generally cleans things up a bit I feel.
Raising the pole pieces while lowering the PU brings out brightness and makes the sound tighter and more focused imho.
I like my PUs set low with pole pieces raised, just the way it works for me.
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Thanks for your thoughts, guys. Kiichi, how much higher are the poles than the top of your pickup? Are we talking about millimeters difference or only fractions of millimeters?
I emailed my tech to ask some questions. Funny thing is that I get no response after the work is paid for. :censored:
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Kiichi, how much higher are the poles than the top of your pickup? Are we talking about millimeters difference or only fractions of millimeters?
I have just measured them on my Ibby S570 with RY bridge and Mule neck.
Now I am not talking top of PU to top of pole piece, but top of PU to the line where the rounded top of the pole piece begins as that was easier to measure (and represenst better how much I actually raised them).
There I got about 1mm to max about 1,2mm.
As a point of reference, fretted @ 24th fret the distance between string and top of pole piece currently is 2,5mm treble, 3mm bass side on the bridge and on the neck 2mm on both sides.
I have tried a freaking lot of different things over the 2 years I have them and I will probably continue to, but this is my absolute fav so far. Might back the bridge up another quarter or half turn and see how that goes.
I just started the process on the new SH bridge SM neck set and my Manhattan neck, plus I think I will try a MQ neck I have lying around in place of the Mule in the Ibby. Yes, I am mad...
With the AM set I have it also worked to get me closer to where I wanted, but the guitar was wrong for them so they are looking for a new home too right now, as the SH/SM combo took their place.
All this tweaking can really take a lot of time, as the height and pole piece height work of each other a lot and you just gotta try a lot of different settings.
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Thanks again, Kiichi. I lowed my bridge pup about 2mm and it made a huge difference. It's much more responsive and defined sounding. The sustain improved dramatically as well. I'll still mess around with the height and find the sweet spot for tone.
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I emailed my tech to ask some questions. Funny thing is that I get no response after the work is paid for. :censored:
This does not surprise me in the slightest, I'm sorry to say. This is why I am keeping my installation simple, just a complete vintage harness from a reputable luthier interstate and the BKPs, installing it myself soon with just four places that need to be soldered and then set my pickup height etc myself to taste (which it seems like you have to do anyway).
I've even heard of friends here having lesser quality components installed and the tech keeping the caps etc that the person brought in. I don't trust them putting components in. The only thing I'd use a tech for is fretboard work because I don't have the right touch for that and I'm afraid I'd damage the binding. Still I don't like the idea of handing my guitar over as people are never as careful with something that's not their own, at least in my experience :x
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Same here, people I have brought my guitars to have screwed up stuff soo many times, especially the wiring, so that I bought myself everything needed for maintenance, soldering and all the other things I can do on my own and I have practiced with an old guitar I have and don't mind screwing anything up. As a result I'm now completely independent when it comes to switching pickups, cleaning rusted parts, setting everything up. I think it should be every guitarists least DIY knowledge, considering you wanna keep your weapon of choice in the best possible shape. It's really just practice (best done with an old beater you have, starter guitars are good for this :P). Now if I only would learn refretting and fret dressing... but that's a matter of quantity. My luthier told me you need to do at least 100 fretjobs before you start to get a feeling for it. Still that's a thing I'll happily leave to him :)