Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Dave Sloven on June 10, 2013, 05:37:23 AM
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Hello everyone.
I am new to all of this pickup swapping business, but I've just ordered the Cold Sweat neck pickup and the A5 version of the Nailbomb bridge pickup via the BKP website. My guitar is a Gibson SG standard with the heritage cherry finish, a 2011 build with a rosewood fretboard. It plays really nice but I bought it over the internet without playing one through an amp (I had played one unplugged in a guitar shop - I was too shy to ask to play it through an amp) and while I loved the action and feel of it as much as the ones I saw in the shop the sound of the 490R/498T combination is something I really hate. I really can't get a sound I like out of the neck pickup and there is a very limited range on the tone and volume controls where the bridge pickup sounds good at all. This is with gain/distortion. Clean the bridge sounds pretty good and the neck is okay. As I mainly like playing '80s thrash metal and punk styles the clash between the sound of these pickups and the sounds I am looking for is pretty clear. Thanks to all of you here who have commented on these pickups and on the SG in particular, it was very helpful. I also asked on the BKP facebook page (after reading every comment I could find online and every youtube video I could find) and settled on the CS/A-NB combo following advice given there in response to my question.
I did not order any pots or capacitors as I haven't pulled the SG apart yet and had a look (I suspect they could do with upgrading though). I ordered the pickups with 4 connectors to allow for push-pull pots to be used (I'm thinking I'll use them in the tone position, as it is more out of the way of my hand and less likely to be knocked, is that wise?) and I'm wondering what people recommend for such pots and what kind of wiring options - phase reversal, coil split, or series/parallel - would be most useful?
I'm thinking phase reversal on the Cold Sweat and coil split on the Nailbomb but I'd like to read some opinions from people who have done it themselves already.
To give some idea of the kind of music I like to play here's a list of bands whose songs I tend to jam on the guitar at present:
Sodom (hence the user name!), Celtic Frost, Poison Idea, Thin Lizzy (Cold Sweat!), Black Sabbath, Motorhead, Discharge, Venom, Destruction, Accept, KISS, Ratos de Porão, Terrorizer, Ramones ...
I'm wondering if the standard set up would suit most of the time and maybe use the coil split for some of the punkier stuff like the Ramones or '60s type stuff that I haven't mentioned (Who)?
Anyway thanks again for all the info and I'll let you know how it turns out. I don't expect it to be too spectacular a change in terms of looks as I specified chrome covers to match the originals.
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If your SG came with 300k pots you'll want to replace them with 500k, and you'll probably benefit from better caps too.
wrt/ wiring options, I personnaly find series/parallel to be a much better option than coil split but YMMV. Also and FWIW phase reversal only affect the middle position.
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you'll be fine with the pickups you ordered
just make sure you have at least 500k pots
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Thanks guys, I appreciate the responses.
Yeah I think these pickups will sound really good for what I want to do.
I'm thinking that if I use push-pulls for the tone controls I can wire them so that they can be out of phase when both selected - which will give me more options for mixing the two pickups - and wiring the Nailbomb with a parallel option might also enable a few more sounds out of that without loosing the humbucking feature. I'm not looking to make it sound like a P-90 guitar. I can go out and buy a P-90 SG if I want that. Epiphone makes a half-decent one (the 50th anniversary model) that I've seen on sale here for $600.
We've been doing okay here in Australia with the exchange rate but that seems likely to change as the federal election approaches, and I don't think these low prices on guitars will be around for much longer. I've been really lucky that it has allowed me to have a new SG Standard with BKPs for under $2000. 8)
P.S. I also had a look at this schematic but it looks very complicated!
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=jp_style (http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=jp_style)
There is a guy with an SG on youtube claims that it allows him to do all this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MvqMml4thQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MvqMml4thQ)
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I'm thinking that if I use push-pulls for the tone controls I can wire them so that they can be out of phase when both selected
Yes Indeed.
and wiring the Nailbomb with a parallel option might also enable a few more sounds out of that without loosing the humbucking feature.
Since you're already going for a complex wiring serie//parallel on the neck might be a good option too. Mare usefull than phase inversion as far as I'm concerned, but here again YMMV.
P.S. I also had a look at this schematic but it looks very complicated!
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=jp_style (http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=jp_style)
it's indeed about as complex a 2HB / 2V / 2T / 3way switch wiring can go. I'm not sure the "neck/bridge series" option really make sense with 'buckers, or at least with hot ones like the ABomb and ColdSweat FWIW. If you go for the full monty another possible use for the 4rth push-pull (once you have series/parallel on each pup and phase reversal) could be a volume/tone bypass on the bridge pup for full blast aggression.
My 2 cents...
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I'm not sure the "neck/bridge series" option really make sense with 'buckers, or at least with hot ones like the ABomb and ColdSweat FWIW. If you go for the full monty another possible use for the 4rth push-pull (once you have series/parallel on each pup and phase reversal) could be a volume/tone bypass on the bridge pup for full blast aggression.
My 2 cents...
Thanks! I appreciate it. I've not wired a guitar before and my soldering experience is limited to slot cars so I might have to ask a friend to help me out, and that complicated set up may indeed try his patience beyond human limits when it's not even his own guitar. The bypass does like a good idea, I could have the tone set more finely for some passages and then kick everything to full and then go back to exactly where I was before ...
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I've not wired a guitar before and my soldering experience is limited to slot cars so I might have to ask a friend to help me out, and that complicated set up may indeed try his patience beyond human limits when it's not even his own guitar.
A very simple yet effective trick is to draw your guitar controls cavity on a piece of cardboard, mount your pots and switch on the cardboard, wire everything possible here, then transplant the result on the guitar and wire the remaining parts.
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Cheers.
I saw in another thread that you have an A-bomb in an SG, and you are happy with it. What styles of music do you play, and which neck pickup did you match it to, and did you use any push-pulls at all?
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I saw in another thread that you have an A-bomb in an SG, and you are happy with it. What styles of music do you play, and which neck pickup did you match it to, and did you use any push-pulls at all?
Used it for the punk-rock / grunge / alt-rock / sometimes-bordering-on-metal mix we played with my previous band. Paired with a Mule neck (not the most obvious combo nor the easiest match but I first had the Mule neck and it sounded so good for clean and bluesy crunch tones I didn't want to replace it). I almost only used the bridge in my band anyway. No push-pull or fancy option, 50s wiring and russian PIO caps and that's about it.
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If your SG has mounting rings you could go for some Seymour Duncan tripleshot mounting rings. They'll give you parallel and coil split options by the flick of two small switches and they're easy to install.
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Thanks, but it is a 'standard' SG Standard, meaning that it has the large pickguard and no mounting rings with covered pickups.
Here's a photo taken the day I got it:
(http://i43.tinypic.com/llbux.jpg)
I'm pretty sure it will look the same after the mods, as I ordered chrome pickup covers (not engraved) with the long legs, and I will be using the same knobs and switches.
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Thinking it all over I might just try standard wiring as a replacement harness with 0.022 capacitors, CTS 500K pots, etc. Could save me a lot of headaches.
I am wondering if people think that the vintage wiring style is the way to go with these pickups? I can pick up a full replacement harness for this guitar at a decent price. It would also allow me to put the factory pickups and harness to one side in case I ever wanted to sell the guitar on one day (although this is doubtful).
EDIT:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/nq3edg.jpg)
Looking inside the guitar just now the modern wiring harness looks fiddly to work with. I can't tell the value of the pots without lifting the assembly out but the capacitors look a bit odd. I might be best off to just lift this right out and put a full vintage harness into it, and not worry about the switches at this point in time.
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I definitely would not plan to use push-pull pots in an SG without measuring the cavity deepness and getting the information on the installation measurements of the pots - the cavity may be too shallow for the push-pull pots to fit.
Cheers Stephan
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I definitely would not plan to use push-pull pots in an SG without measuring the cavity deepness and getting the information on the installation measurements of the pots - the cavity may be too shallow for the push-pull pots to fit.
It is at least in my own 80' SG Standard.
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Looking in that cavity that's sort of what I was thinking. If they do fit they will be hard up against the cover, which doesn't seem like a good idea.
After that and the advice from musician friends here in Adelaide and on this forum I will just install a new vintage-style harness and just solder the new pickups to that. The ones on sale here look pretty good, and it has the advantage of allowing me to remove and replace the whole assembly and place the originals in a box ready to go back in again if they ever need to. I don't like the idea of trying to solder near quick-connects, as I am a bit clumsy and might melt them!
EDIT: I just bought this harness (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261213223885) via ebay, should expedite the process of getting those pickups into my SG.
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My BKPs just arrived ... that was quick, and they arrived in the same delivery as the wiring harness mentioned above, so now I have everything I need, including a couple of sets of strings and some other lovely goodies! Cheers to Tim and everyone at BKP. :)
I just need to get a couple of frets looked at before I void the Gibson warranty by changing the electronics. The high E sometimes hangs on the 9th or 10th fret. Not sure if it is due to a gap between the binding and the fret or the fret sitting proud (I suspect the former). I'll call the dealer now and see if I can get a local luthier to fix that under warranty before installing these pickups.
EDIT: Apparently all warranty work on Gibson guitars has to be sent to Melbourne. Stuff that. I'm not trusting my guitar to couriers again. I'll pay to have that fixed here by a local luthier.
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Pickups are in now, but the bridge height is out of whack due to my bumbling about and there is a lot of fret buzz so hard to tell how good they sound just yet. I have also not adjusted the pickup height yet except to place them roughly as high as they looked in the photos I took before I removed the Gibson pickups.
When I have all this sorted out I will write more, but I will say that straight away these pickups seem more articulate, tighter, and much more aggressive. The Cold Sweat in particular is a clear improvement on the 490R, and I suspect that it is closer to its proper height than the bridge at the moment.
The output has certainly increased as a result of changing pickups and wiring.
The main headache I had was the ground from the bridge. On the PCB Gibsons this is a nasty piece of springy brass. I ended up having to solder some wire from a slot car between the factory wire and the new tone pot. The harness manufacturer is sending me an old style bridge wire free of charge and will include them in subsequent kits to make things easier.
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good to hear things are working out for you
I personally like medium high string height so I get a lot more resonance, sustain, less fretbuzz and a thicker tone
I usually like most bkps VERY close to strings, but the a-bomb was one of the few models I liked better a lot lower than I'm used, but not too low either
only had it in les pauls, though, so the output and bass were getting a bit too much when set too close
SG's don't have a prominent belly and the tall pickup rings, so don't be afraid on setting the whole pickup out of pickguard (lot of people avoid that for pure aesthetic reasons)
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Cheers!
I've basically fixed the intonation problem. I think it arose from the TOM tailpiece being too low relative to the bridge, and the strings touching the back of the bridge. My eyesight is poor so I didn't notice that before I first played it. Took my glasses off and put the guitar up near my face and I could see it and adjust appropriately. I also lifted the bridge enough to get rid of almost all the buzz but there is some somewhere, which might require a truss rod adjustment. I'll show someone tomorrow and see if they have any ideas, and at worst it might require a trip to a tech (it needs some fret adjustment anyway, and I could ask him to install that bridge ground wire when it arrives).
The issue I am having is pickup height. I have been getting a woofy and wooly sound out of both pickups, even though it is very clear that the output is increased relative to the 490R/498T set. I have raised the pole pieces half a turn on each pickup, which combined with lowering the pickups seems to have improved things. The neck pickup looks very low now though. I'll post some photos of it before and after so that people can compare them.
If anyone can give advice on the distance from pole piece to string that they find works well with the Cold Sweat neck and A-bomb bridge that would help.
I have the long legs and chrome covers. So far the bridge pickup is not poking out. It may actually be lower than stock. I'll have a look at the photos and see if I can tell.
I'll update this post in a little while with photos
EDIT: Actually I might post that over in the tech part of the forum to get a broader range of advice (click here (https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=30151.0)).
Here are some photos of the old and new components:
490R/498T set (note the connectors and the discoloration - heritage cherry? - under the neck pickup):
(http://i39.tinypic.com/qrns5v.jpg)
2011 PCB Gibson wiring:
(http://i43.tinypic.com/eu4r2p.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2hqdyxk.jpg)
Vintage style harness from SCS Custom Shop:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2wp8orb.jpg)
BKPs (Cold Sweat & Nailbomb, R-> L):
(http://i40.tinypic.com/mrre9w.jpg)
Pickups installed:
(http://i39.tinypic.com/muuyh3.jpg)
Harness installed (note the temporary wire to connect the hard copper wire from the PCB to the pot - that wire was originally in the green socket on the PCB):
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2ur2dn8.jpg)
Basically I bent the wire into an eye and then wound the brass (silicone covered) wire around it and then added a large amount of solder to that (birdshiteee style), soldering the other end to the pot. It looks messy but does the job until I can get a new ground wire from the bridge to the volume pot fitted.
I reused the Gibson pickup screws and springs for a few reasons. First, I managed to lose one of the new springs. Second, the BKP screws were slot heads rather than the original philips head type (I'm trying to keep this looking as original as possible). Third, the new ones were just so springy that I found it easier to get the old ones to compress (as they had already been compressed for over a year). The bridge ground wire and the springs pinging off everywhere were the two difficulties I had. The rest of it was straight-forward enough. I just need to get the pickup heights sorted now.
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I usually like most bkps VERY close to strings, but the a-bomb was one of the few models I liked better a lot lower than I'm used, but not too low either
only had it in les pauls, though, so the output and bass were getting a bit too much when set too close
SG's don't have a prominent belly and the tall pickup rings, so don't be afraid on setting the whole pickup out of pickguard (lot of people avoid that for pure aesthetic reasons)
Hmm, yeah I'm starting to think that I might need to move the Cold Sweat up a little bit from where it is now, as it sounded better where I had it initially, and then I moved it down a bit because it looked very close to the strings. As I have moved the pole pieces up slightly it maybe need to go up a little less. Do you adjust the pole pieces at all? I adjusted each one a half-turn. I'm not sure that is correct.
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Hmm, yeah I'm starting to think that I might need to move the Cold Sweat up a little bit from where it is now, as it sounded better where I had it initially, and then I moved it down a bit because it looked very close to the strings. As I have moved the pole pieces up slightly it maybe need to go up a little less. Do you adjust the pole pieces at all? I adjusted each one a half-turn. I'm not sure that is correct.
What I do is
1/ adjust the bridge pup's height (pole pieces flat) until it sounds good to my hear (possibly with some slant depending on the guitar and pup)
2/ adjust the necck pups's height idem
3/ mess a bit with both to adjust relative volumes and tones
4/ then adjust pole pieces on both on a string per string basis so I get an even volume from each string
5/ return to step 3 if needed
I had a bit too much tone difference between neck & bridge on my SG (neck - mule - too dark wrt/ the abomb bridge) so I messed with pole pieces height / whole pickup height to fine tune things (lowering poles and highering - is that english ??? - the bridge pup, highering pole pieces / lowering the neck pup, so both catch more tone from the slugs) but that's on uncovered pups and small pickguard with pup rings so the pups are parallel to the strings, not to the body like on yours.
Also and for the record, I use med/high action and tend to set my pups rather low (at least with BKPs), which I find to give a more opened and breathing tone.
I have been getting a woofy and wooly sound out of both pickups
Coming from 490T/498R this shouldn't be the case AFAICT. The ABomb is indeed hotter than the 498 but it's way tighter and more articulate and still has plenty of high-end chime (even if not as much as a RR), even in my rather dark SG.
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One of the problems I was having was bridge height relative to tailpiece height. It took quite a bit of fiddling to get the high E clear of the back of the bridge. Once I had the bridge height set right I adjusted the pickups. I have the Nailbomb sounding pretty good but I still need to adjust the Cold Sweat more. I have tested it both clean and with gain, and at noon settings on the EQ and then at more usual settings. I'm still getting some odds sounds from the neck pickup. I might have to move the pole pieces down to a flat position, as I had adjusted them up before. I basically raised the bridge pickup as far as it could go and then lowered it until I started sounding good and then when it started to sound less good I moved it up a bit. I also started adjusting the pole pieces a bit but I haven't finished.
The main problems seem to be with the A string and the high E. Intonation is fine but a pole piece adjustment might help. There also seem to be problems with buzz on some strings, especially the A string. It might be for a couple of reasons related to the string change. (1) Having all the strings off for a day might have resulted in a change in the neck relief; (2) it might be something to do with the difference between these strings and the factory strings. This is the guitar's first string change
Oh and the word you were looking for is 'raising' :)
P.S. Part of the problem might be sloppy playing on my part. The pickups seem more focused and the Cold Sweat has a far greater ability with single notes (hammer-ons etc). It is with chords that I am detecting the issue
EDIT: yeah I've had to 'tone down' my right hand a bit with the Nailbomb. You really notice differences in picking styles and sometimes I was just 'digging in' too much. Didn't notice it much with the old pickup. Also with both pickups slides are much, much more powerful and noticeable. So loud in fact that I have to tone them down a bit as well, otherwise it sounds like Cronos playing bass if I do them on the low E. I've got to leave the guitar alone for a day or so but I suspect I'll get the Cold Sweat neck pickup sorted out soon too. I think I have to lower the pole pieces down to dead flat again and then mess around with the height as when I first put it in the pickup sounded better than the Nailbomb until I started fiddling with it.
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One of the problems I was having was bridge height relative to tailpiece height. It took quite a bit of fiddling to get the high E clear of the back of the bridge.
Yeps that's a problem with large pickguards SGs - you have an angle between the string and pup so you can't freely adjust the height.
wrt/ strings / fretbuzz, yes you have to do a full setup when using different strings (even with same gauge some adjustments might be required).
Oh and the word you were looking for is 'raising' :)
:facepalm:
P.S. Part of the problem might be sloppy playing on my part. (...)
Not necessarily "sloppy" but as you already noticed BKPs are rather unforgiving and may require some adjustments. My LP Studio (currently stock - 490R/498T) is way "easier" than the SG - but then I loose quite a lot of details, nuances, intentions etc, which I find really frustrating.
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Hi,
I would suggest getting the guitar to a luthier for a good setup. I usually set the truss rod and action adjustments myself, but something related to adjusting nut slots, levelling frets or filind down sticking fret ends, I'll leave to the professionals :)
EDIT: re-occurring advice removed.
-Zaned
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WHOA ... I just got the Cold Sweat dialed-in, and the whole guitar now sounds killer except for that new string rattle that I need to sort out. My friend tells me that's just a new string thing and not to worry about it too much, as it will settle down in a few days (I think I've noticed this already as the strings have been slacked off and then tuned again several times while adjusting the bridge).
To anyone who wants to put an alnico Nailbomb bridge and Cold Sweat neck in an SG Standard or another SG with the same mahogany body and neck construction and tune-o-matic bridge etc I say go for it!
This is turning into one killer old school trash metal and hardcore/crust punk axe! The $450 spent on rewiring and the new pickups was certainly worth it. The guitar is transformed. Now I just need to adjust my right hand picking style. I was obviously compensating for dull, lifeless pickups (the Mighty Mites in the Epiphone Explorer especially, but also to some extent the 490R/498T set in the Gibson) by playing too heavy.
The best thing about it now that it is adjusted is that the clean and distorted tones on both pickups are great, and even more so the fact that the middle position with them combined is also great! These pickups are well-matched but each have their own character.
I can't even start on the advantages of these compared to the Gibson pickups for my usual playing style. I only liked the stock pickups playing clean, and even then the BKPs are better. Distorted the 490R was a disaster (I might use more distortion than some other people). I can also see how the standard set might have been improved with a pot change and some height and pole piece tweaks, so I don't want to say that the stock pickups aren't good for certain styles. I'm sure though that for the styles I play most of the time this BKP combo would be hard to beat.
I'm experimenting a little to get an Iommi tone out of them as that wasn't right there when on full volume and brightness. Turning down the brightness a bit on the A-bomb seems to get me closer.
I should be clear though that the Nailbomb in the SG might be too harsh for some people. This is the kind of sound I was hoping for (music starts at 1:00)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBUrLBQgXUw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBUrLBQgXUw)
EDIT: I fixed the rattle by adjusting the truss rod. It's fine now
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I continue to fiddle with set-ups to get different sounds out of these pickups, especially the Nailbomb (I mainly seem to use the Cold Sweat when playing clean, for which it is excellent). Today I discovered that I could get a great early Celtic Frost sound out of it by using a Maxon OD-9 and Electro Harmonix Metal Muff as mid boost and mid cut respectively (I know this sounds weird, but it works). No drive on either pedal. I didn't set up the 'boost' control on the MM but I guess you could use that for a lead boost if you wanted to retain the core sound. With the MM cut and the same OD-9 settings on you get a great punk sound with the volume and tone maxed on the A-bomb. Setting on the 6534+ amp were lead channel, EQs set at 666 with resonance and presence up around 8-9.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2zsa54w.jpg)
I am running this chain on my amp: SG-->DECIMATOR G-STRING-->POLYTUNE-->OD-9-->METAL MUFF-->6534+-->DECIMATOR G-STRING-->6534+-->PPC412
I only just the guitar back from Fretco today after they did a warranty repair on the neck binding (there was a small gap between the binding and frets either side) and after a couple of hours cranking out Circle of the Tyrants, Procreation of the Wicked, Dethroned Emperor etc I picked up all this nasty black on my hands. I am assuming it is from the fretboard conditioner they used, as they re-used my old strings that were installed with the pickups.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2utoi8g.jpg)
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...using a Maxon OD-9 and Electro Harmonix Metal Muff as mid boost and mid cut respectively (I know this sounds weird, but it works).
Not that strange to me, if I recall correctly that cut and boost technique was essesntial to the legendary Dimebag tone.
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Well this Peavey has been a big learning curve for me. I'm learning how to drive the distortion capabilities of the amp rather than adding fake distortion from pedals to the signal like I used to with the solid state amps and even the low gain tube amps that some of my friends have.
I also prefer to avoid using the volume and tone knobs on the guitar too much to adjust tone. I'd rather have a full signal coming out and then EQ that before it reaches the amp. I need to experiment more with the rhythm channel too. Although a lot of people don't like the gain on the rhythm channel that much on the 6505+ with the 'crunch' switch on I am finding it to be quite good with the 6534+ (probably the biggest difference between the two amps, besides the slightly cleaner rhythm sound with the crunch off)