Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Gary_Goo on June 11, 2013, 10:11:23 AM
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I'm getting a set of VHII's for my Les Paul Custom. I was considering putting in a coil split at the neck and possibly the bridge, but before I re-wire the guitar I'm asking myself is it really worth doing?
I have 2 Teles and a P90 loaded Les Paul Special for single coil sounds, so do coil split humbuckers offer anything tone wise or should I just not bother with the coil splits?
What do people reckon. Worth doing or not?
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What do people reckon. Worth doing or not?
Coil-splitting is IMHO mostly useless, at least if you already have real single coils (and unless you have a HSS setup of course). Serie / parallel switching has usually been much more interesting in my experience - lower output (than series), clearer and more single-coilish tone, but without becoming overly thin / brittle, and still retains the humbucking effect.
Now I've not try splittng any BKP yet, and some are supposed to work fine split.
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Unless you NEED a (compromised) split sound for live work, I wouldn't bother on regular humbuckers. Series/parallel, as BigB says, may be a good option if you want to try something different.
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Thanks guys. I think I'll just go with standard wiring and use a Tele for single coil sounds. I've got more than enough tonal options in a range of guitars and its not something I'd really use live anyways. It'll save me some time and money too as I wont need to rewire anything.
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Thanks guys. I think I'll just go with standard wiring and use a Tele for single coil sounds. I've got more than enough tonal options in a range of guitars and its not something I'd really use live anyways. It'll save me some time and money too as I wont need to rewire anything.
Good decision. With all your guitars you have got the whole spectrum covered.
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I'm not a big fan of split humbuckers either, but I am interested in the PRS DGT wiring, where they use resistors so in split mode you're not "losing" all of the second coil, giving a slightly fuller sound.
http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/schematics/2012/dgt_2012.pdf (http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/schematics/2012/dgt_2012.pdf)
Another option on a two-pickup guitar, which only needs the simplest bit of re-wiring, is putting the pickups out of phase - that gives a thinner, less bassy sound in the middle position, which I quite like. Used to be the standard wiring on Hamer guitars.
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No big humbucker splitting fan, too, unless it's in a HSS set up or HH set up with a 5 way selector. Never liked it much in a LP type guitar.
That PRS DGT diagram looks interesting. It seems as if the resistors are in series with the coil tap line so that the non-active coil is not fully grounded. This may have an influence on hum susceptibility, too.
Bill Lawrence used a different approach by adding a capacitor of 0.022uf in series with the coil tap line. Instead of deactivating one coil his method reduces its resonant peak to a very low level. The purpose is to keep both coils active at low frequencies - thus eliminating single coil hum. I use a 0.047uf cap with my Miracle Man in "split mode".
Cheers Stephan
EDITED for typos
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That PRS DGT diagram looks interesting. It seems as if the resistors are in series with the coil tap line so that the non-active coil is not fully grounded. This may have an influcenc on hum susceptibility, too.
In the sense that it will retain some hum-cancellation, or make the hum worse?
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Not a big fan of splitting myself but then I can't say I'm a fan of single coil tones anyway. It's never sounded desperately like a Strat to me even when I did try it. As with others on here, the parallel/series switching appeals a bit more but I still doubt I'd make that much use of it and I have an HSS guitar! The mod I made most use of was a push/pull that allowed me to permanently engage the bridge pickup in full humbucker mode so I could have the bridge pup with the neck or all three at the same time. I've sometimes wondered about a mod to permanently engage the bridge humbucker while also making it parallel at the same time but I've never tried it.
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In the sense that it will retain some hum-cancellation, or make the hum worse?
It will retain some hum-cancelling ability Phil :)
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Thanks Dave. Sounds good, I will have to give it a try..... y'know, eventually.
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I'm not sure how splitting VH buckers would work as they're fairly low output to start off with and you'd be halving that output. I recently had coil split push/pulls fitted to my RY equipped guitar. The neck split I'm not too wild about because there's not enough output but the bridge split sounds amazing.
I don't understand people rejecting the idea of split buckers simply because they don't sound exactly like a Strat or a Tele. It's still definitely a singe coil sound (and an awesome one) and I use it on some songs without the need to switch guitars during a gig which I hate doing. Folks put hummers in their Strats without complaining that it doesn't make it sound like a Les Paul.
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I had a VHII bridge on the neck postion of a HSH guitar years ago and it's split sound was FANTASTIC. I use this pu in the bridge for my HSS strat and the split is usefull, and the tone IS very single-like. This guitar can do early van halen and deep purple only splitting the coil. I think it is allways worthy.
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I don't understand people rejecting the idea of split buckers simply because they don't sound exactly like a Strat or a Tele. It's still definitely a singe coil sound (and an awesome one)
As far as I'm concerned it's not that much about "not sounding like a Strat or Tele" than about "not sounding that good with most buckers" (that is with all buckers I've tried with so far, but none of them were BKPs). wrt/ the "not a strat or tele" stance, I only mention this when someone seems to assume he'll get that kind of tones from a split bucker.
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I fully agree with BigB here - it's not that a Les Paul type guitar does not sound like a Strat or Tele with a split humbucker which I did not expect anyway but because mostly it sounded too thin to my ears.
I must say though that the Miracle Man bridge in the alder strat sounds very good in split mode - so does the Holydiver in the ash strat.
Cheers Stephan
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Would it be fair to say that you're more likely to get a good split sound with a higher output humbucker ? I can imagine that a split PAF type in an LP would sound weak but my RY bridge still has plenty of output when it's split and sounds muscular and punchy. Very close to the way I'd like a good Tele to sound.
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Would it be fair to say that you're more likely to get a good split sound with a higher output humbucker ?
"More likely" ? I can't tell, honestly. Both the JB and the X2N are rather high output, and both sound very thin split. In fact most of the guitars where I've seen coil splits had rather high output buckers and none of them sounded right split (and by "right" I don't mean "fenderish", just "usable"). Now I've read quite a few posts about BKPs working fine for coil splitting, at least for some of the vintage-hot and contemporary ranges. So well, output might play some role here but AFAICT it's not enough.
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Would it be fair to say that you're more likely to get a good split sound with a higher output humbucker ?
I think that's probably true, because at least on paper it's closer to a true single coil (or perhaps more accurately given the construction of the pickup, a P-90!). The magnet and wire must play their parts too - maybe alnico is more likely to give a "good" single-coil sound than ceramic.
I'd also say a higher output humbucker tends to give a more "interesting" series/parallel wiring, there's more contrast between the series and parallel sounds than there is with a vintage pickup.
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On paper, a higher output humbucker should sound better split than a lower output humbucker but the ultimate test can only be done by trial and listening.
BTW I tried the Grissom wiring with the additional resistors on my swamp ash guitar with the CS neck in the bridge and the HD neck (both lower output humbuckers), and it improved the split sound - not much more output, not much more bass but just enough to fill out the tone. Good mod.
Cheers Stephan
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I would tend to agree that the higher output pickups, from my experience anyway, do tend to sound better than the lower output ones when split. (Three way toggle with push pull switch)
I have a calibrated set of VHII's but didn't really like the sound of the split tones (personal thing obviously).
On the other hand I have calibrated sets of Rebel Yells and Abraxas in two PRS custom 22. To my ears these spit nicely when both "outer coils" are active. I have been using this configuration for my clean tones for some years and am more than satisfied. (Only drawback with this combination is it does tend to makes the bridge when split on its own sound pretty thin, but then again I don't use it, humbucker all the way on the bridge).
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I have a coil split on the Nailbomb bridge on my strat. I like it quite a lot! It's definitely a much better split sound than what I got from a Cold Sweat bridge in a PRS..
-Zaned
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I have a coil split on the Nailbomb bridge on my strat. I like it quite a lot! It's definitely a much better split sound than what I got from a Cold Sweat bridge in a PRS..
Assuming it's an A-Bomb, I wonder how much part the magnet plays there? After all, single-coils are alnico pickups, almost never ceramic.
I realise that argument may not hold much water, since we're still comparing slugs (or screws) and a bar magnet with a set of individual rod magnets.
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I have a coil split on the Nailbomb bridge on my strat. I like it quite a lot! It's definitely a much better split sound than what I got from a Cold Sweat bridge in a PRS..
Assuming it's an A-Bomb, I wonder how much part the magnet plays there? After all, single-coils are alnico pickups, almost never ceramic.
I realise that argument may not hold much water, since we're still comparing slugs (or screws) and a bar magnet with a set of individual rod magnets.
A-bomb it is. But now that you mention it, it might actually be the slug coil I'm using when I split the 'bucker :D I'll have to check that tonight.
-Zaned
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A-bomb it is. But now that you mention it, it might actually be the slug coil I'm using when I split the 'bucker :D I'll have to check that tonight.
-Zaned
If you wired it up as specified by BKP (red = hot, black = ground, white and green together and to ground for split) then the slug coil is active. Want to have the screw coil active - solder black and red together and use green and white as hot resp. ground.
Cheers Stephan
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If you wired it up as specified by BKP (red = hot, black = ground, white and green together and to ground for split) then the slug coil is active. Want to have the screw coil active - solder black and red together and use green and white as hot resp. ground.
Cheers Stephan
I did not originally wire it, just wired it the same way when I changed the pickup. Almost embarrassing :) I wanted it primarily so that I could get that middle+bridge tone to have two possibilities. I rarely use the split tail bucker alone, but now that I (re)discovered it, I probably will.
On my PRS I don't really use the split bridge humbucker alone that much, but sometimes. I think on the McCarty the split position drops the slug coil, so that also contributes to the tone. EDIT: screw coil is dropped and slug coil is in use, in both the strat and the PRS.
On my LP I don't even have it on the bridge, just on the neck. That's where I use it a lot more :P
-Zaned
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Assuming it's an A-Bomb, I wonder how much part the magnet plays there? After all, single-coils are alnico pickups, almost never ceramic.
I realise that argument may not hold much water, since we're still comparing slugs (or screws) and a bar magnet with a set of individual rod magnets.
Entry-level Fender pickups - ie the one found in most Squiers and some of the MiM and lower MiJ range - are actually a ceramic bar magnet with metal poles :mrgreen:
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Entry-level Fender pickups - ie the one found in most Squiers and some of the MiM and lower MiJ range - are actually a ceramic bar magnet with metal poles :mrgreen:
Yeah, I know, but they're not generally regarded as "good" examples of the single-coil pickup sound. :P
That said, I do remember reading an interview with a blues guitarist, I think it was Duke Robillard (or was it Ronnie Earl?), who said he really liked the sound of those cheap Strat pickups, even went to the extent of fitting them in better guitars.
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I have single coil switch for my HH LP style guitar. Usable in a gig for the odd number that needs a thin sound or twang but it's generally nasal and lacks body when using one coil of an HB. I rarely go to it by choice. You also notice the hum and noise when you do.
I am far more impressed with series/parallel switching in another guitar I have and would seriously consider making the coil spilt switch a neck/bridge phase switch and make the tone pots push/pull for series/parallel for each HB when I get round to doing some work on my LP guitar.
That said as others have pointed out, it can work great in an HSH or HSS with another single coil. I just installed a Holydiver today that does single coil with middle single coil really well.
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(snip - about cheap ceramic Fender SC pups)
That said, I do remember reading an interview with a blues guitarist, I think it was Duke Robillard (or was it Ronnie Earl?), who said he really liked the sound of those cheap Strat pickups, even went to the extent of fitting them in better guitars.
Actually it seems that quite a few guitar players like these pups (cf the relevant threads on TDPRI). Go figure...
@guitarteach: +1
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Coil splitting simply drops the output and makes a full-sounding guitar sound thin. I've never heard it work well. Re Philly's comment re the PRS DGT, it is probably the best coil-splitting setup that there is. I'm fortunate enough to own one and I can tell you that the coil splitting sounds awful even on a guitar of this awesomeness. That's why I'm selling it - a Les Paul or 335 with BKP's makes me sound like ME, so happily I can stop looking for tone! The good news is that if you want a Fender-y sound you can buy really good strat's and tele's quite cheaply and put BKP's in to take it to a whole new level. I think Tim's expertise really adds value to guitars.
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Coil splitting simply drops the output and makes a full-sounding guitar sound thin. I've never heard it work well. Re Philly's comment re the PRS DGT, it is probably the best coil-splitting setup that there is. I'm fortunate enough to own one and I can tell you that the coil splitting sounds awful even on a guitar of this awesomeness. That's why I'm selling it - a Les Paul or 335 with BKP's makes me sound like ME, so happily I can stop looking for tone! The good news is that if you want a Fender-y sound you can buy really good strat's and tele's quite cheaply and put BKP's in to take it to a whole new level. I think Tim's expertise really adds value to guitars.
I'm a bit puzzled by that, even if the coil splits on the DGT sound rubbish, why sell the guitar if it's awesome?
Coil splits are really just "optional extras", something to add with push-pull pots or a five-way switch - you don't lose your basic three humbucker sounds.
Or maybe I'm misinterpreting the comment, was your main point that you're better off letting humbuckers and single-coils each do what they do best, and that you don't need to spend PRS money to get good sounds?
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Philly, you actually do lose your humbucker sounds. All the coil tap does is water-down what was already there. I'm selling it because I realised what I loved about the DGT was the Les Paul/335 sounds that it does. I already have two LP's and two 335's so I don't need the DGT but I do need the money to build my tuition website. Coil splitting aside, what is phenomenal about the DGT is that it can sound like a LP and a 335 depending on what pickup you're using. That should be physically impossible, but this guitar does it when it's cranked. PRS got this guitar so right, it's way ahead of the game. If you can afford one, do yourself a favour and go for it. :D
http://worldguitars.co.uk/2009-mccarty-burst-146520/ (http://worldguitars.co.uk/2009-mccarty-burst-146520/)
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If you can afford one, do yourself a favour and go for it. :D
http://worldguitars.co.uk/2009-mccarty-burst-146520/ (http://worldguitars.co.uk/2009-mccarty-burst-146520/)
:lol: No!!
I can (sort of) afford it, but I'm not buying any more guitars! Not for a while anyway.
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Coil splitting simply drops the output and makes a full-sounding guitar sound thin. I've never heard it work well. Re Philly's comment re the PRS DGT, it is probably the best coil-splitting setup that there is. I'm fortunate enough to own one and I can tell you that the coil splitting sounds awful even on a guitar of this awesomeness. That's why I'm selling it - a Les Paul or 335 with BKP's makes me sound like ME, so happily I can stop looking for tone! The good news is that if you want a Fender-y sound you can buy really good strat's and tele's quite cheaply and put BKP's in to take it to a whole new level. I think Tim's expertise really adds value to guitars.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. With the A-bomb on my strat, it actually works quite nicely. I was playing with a clean tone, and the split humbucker gave a really really good tone there. Might have been luck, I have to really test it at stage volumes where I've rarely used it..yet. At least on its own.
I don't really care for it on the Riff Raff bridge that's on my PRS McCarty. That's where it feels somewhat thinner. However, the middle position on that guitar gives very nice tones on the split position too. And full humbucking mode. I might try the parallel setting on this guitar though!
One setting which I often use on the LP, is the middle position, full bridge humbucker and the neck humbucker split. That's where it works good too..
-Zaned
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Re Philly's comment re the PRS DGT, it is probably the best coil-splitting setup that there is. I'm fortunate enough to own one and I can tell you that the coil splitting sounds awful even on a guitar of this awesomeness.
Is it a 2013 model or an earlier one? PRS changed the wiring and stopped using the additional resistors from 2013 on.
Cheers Stephan
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Re Philly's comment re the PRS DGT, it is probably the best coil-splitting setup that there is. I'm fortunate enough to own one and I can tell you that the coil splitting sounds awful even on a guitar of this awesomeness.
Is it a 2013 model or an earlier one? PRS changed the wiring and stopped using the additional resistors from 2013 on.
Cheers Stephan
Stephan, it's an earlier one - I think it's a 2011. I'd be interested to hear the 2013. That's what I love about PRS, they never stop researching and improving.
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So you have to lash out every year or so for an 'improved' PRS ? Nice if you can afford it. Luckily, I don't like them.
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I cant comment on the les paul or that pickup choice unfortunately.
I'm really knew to coil tapping etc and to be fair I dont understand how if works ....... what I will say is I can get a very nice strat sound from it on my ESP M1000 and I have a USA strat I can compare it to. I will say its clean stuff that sounds impressive as opposed to overdrive. Very usuable and I often play clean Eric Johnson riffs/songs with the coil tap and I think its sounds really good
Like I say I dont understand how it words. In the said guitar i have a nailbomb bridge and a could sweat neck. I have no idea which parts of the pickups are being used in the middle position but it sounds brilliant. If any one could explain i'd be grateful.