Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Slartibartfarst42 on June 24, 2013, 10:18:21 AM
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At the moment I have two guitars and I'm in no rush to own more than two but I do think I want there to be a slightly different crossover between what they do. My current guitars are a Jackson SL3 Soloist with a Miracle Man and Sinners so obviously set up for Metal. My other guitar is a PRS SE Custom 24 with a Holydiver/Emerald set so set up more as a Rock/Metal guitar. What I really want to do in the next 12 months is change the Jackson for something that is more of a Blues/Rock guitar.
As I love my PRS so much I've been thinking of just getting another Custom 24 but loading it with Abraxas pickups for that Blues/Rock tone. This would have some obvious benefits in that I already know the guitar well and they're great for playing pretty much anything but with a pickup change being the only variable between the two, would I really get two distinct flavours?
The other option is to buy a different guitar and I find I'm thinking about a Les Paul style guitar. Now let me say from the outset that I LOVE the rich and warm tone of a Les Paul but I've never really liked playing them for two reasons. Firstly, the necks are too thick and uncomfortable and secondly, the upper fret access is woeful due to the single cut design. I've spent years trying to find that Les Paulish tone in a double cut guitar but I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that to get that tone, you simply have to have a lot of mahogany. The PRS single cuts are out as they all have the wide fat neck so I'm thinking that the most likely candidate would be a LTD EC-401 of some description so my first question is, what are these guitars like? I doubt I'd be keeping the stock pickups so they're not really a factor.
IF I went the single cut route, which do you think would work best as the Blues/Rock guitar and which as the Rock/Metal guitar? My first thought was to keep the PRS as the Rock/Metal guitar as upper fret access is very good for the solos and I know my pickups work well in that guitar so I just have to decide what to put in the LTD for Blues/Rock but I feel I need to at least consider doing it the other way around, in which case I have to think about pickups a lot more. I'm pretty sure the Abraxas set will do my Blues/Rock tone in the PRS but would the Holydiver/Emerald set work well in the LTD?
As I say, it's early stages at the moment but I would appreciate any thoughts and insights you may have on this issue and these guitars.
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I would look for a (used) PRS SE Custom 22 because it has good upperfret acces, but Gibson-esque scale.
Personally I would throw in a Mule-set or Black Dog/Mule-set. For blues/rock I like opensounding, very articulate PAF's. As all BKP's they handle gain with authority. Of course an Abraxas-set would do no harm too. :)
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I'm pretty sure the 22's and 24's both have the same scale, as do the mcartys. Its the single cut 245's that have the gibson scale. The rest are 25" halfway dead in between?
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I'm pretty sure the 22's and 24's both have the same scale, as do the mcartys. Its the single cut 245's that have the gibson scale. The rest are 25" halfway dead in between?
You could be right. I'm not familiar with most PRS-models, only that the SE-guitars deliver a lot of guitar for the money.
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I think the newer ones from the last 4 years or so do for sure, the earlier ones were iffy..
I think the most bang for buck PRS is the CE guitars, mainly 24's, can come in at well under a grand on the bay and were made in the US alongside the CU's with all the US hardware and attention to detail that the CU's had. Just bolt on instead on set neck
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Yes, they're good value for money. I'm not a PRS-guys, but I played a few. Not all had the vibe. but the workmanship is happening and the trems are solid. I particularly like the Swampash Special.
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Agree, I played more i haven't liked than i've liked, mainly CU24's and 22's. I was lucky with the one i own. The swampash specials are great, do they still make em?
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Considering the les paul..
Classic Les Paul tone is a sum of its parts; scale length (it affects tone), construction (neck and headstock angle, single cutaway), mahogany AND maple. That maple top changes the tone, as does the thick slab of mahogany beneath it.
Many people think mahogany is dark, whereas it's actually not. A good specimen, I mean. It does have emphasized mids. Maple also has a lot of mids, buf different.
A good les paul is not muddy. I have a bright one :) A bad les paul is dull and nasal.
Upper fret access is not the best, I know. However, many manufacturers (like Feline) have improved that greatly. And even if you go the regular LP route, they have many different neck sizes. Although I myself don't mind the PRS wide fat at all, so maybe Gibbys have almost always bigger neck than you like :)
-Zaned
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Or a Les Paul Special DC with two Nantuckets.... blues and rock all the way.
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The other option is to buy a different guitar and I find I'm thinking about a Les Paul style guitar. Now let me say from the outset that I LOVE the rich and warm tone of a Les Paul but I've never really liked playing them for two reasons. Firstly, the necks are too thick and uncomfortable and secondly, the upper fret access is woeful due to the single cut design. I've spent years trying to find that Les Paulish tone in a double cut guitar but I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that to get that tone, you simply have to have a lot of mahogany. The PRS single cuts are out as they all have the wide fat neck so I'm thinking that the most likely candidate would be a LTD EC-401 of some description so my first question is, what are these guitars like? I doubt I'd be keeping the stock pickups so they're not really a factor.
If you want Les Paul-ish tone but don't like fat necks and would prefer it not to be a singlecut, you could consider Yamaha SG or Ibanez Artist models.
We'd be talking used, of course, as the Artist is long out of production (there have been some recent reissues, but with some inaccurate details) and Yamaha are only making high-end SG models nowadays. But you can get some good bargains on eBay if you go for the lower ends of the ranges like, for example, an SG700 or AR100. Especially if you don't mind a few dings and scratches.
The only downside on those '80s guitars is that they are heavy. Very heavy. But that may not be an issue for you.
Can't really comment on the ESP/LTD EC models, I've never tried them, but I've always thought they look like very cool guitars and a good LP alternative. If I didn't mind skinny necks, I'm sure I would have owned one by now. But I can't stand skinny necks! :wink:
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I had a Yamaha SG in the late eighties. Sounded great, but the weight... I got tired of it. Thank God for swampash... :)
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I have some "saved searches" on eBay in the hope that one day I'll find a freakishly lightweight old SG2000 or AR300. But I'm coming to the conclusion it's never gonna happen. :lol:
I've even considered getting one custom made with lighter timber or a chambered body, but with both of those guitars I really like all the specific details like the inlays and the proprietary hardware, so getting a "copy" would involve too many annoying compromises.
Coming back to Slartibartfast's dilemma, I'm trying to think what other options there might be..... there are probably some modernised Les Paul types in the Schecter and Dean ranges. And there's the Epiphone Prophecy series, not sure if they're still being made but those 24-fret LPs with EMGs or Dirty Fingers look quite cool.
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Mmmmm, lots of ideas that I'll try to cover methodically.
PRS - If I end up getting another PRS it will be an SE Custom 24. There's nothing else in the range that really does it for me in quite the same way.
Gibson Les Paul - Just too expensive and the necks are too thick.
LTD - The spec of the EC-401 does mention a maple top but I suspect it's only a maple veneer. If I moved up to the EC-1000 I'm just not sure. It may or may not be a proper maple cap. Does anybody know?
Ibanez Artist series - This double cut design does appeal for the access to the upper frets but I'm a bit confused about the range. It doesn't feature on the Ibanez website, suggesting it's out of production yet a quick search on Ebay showed me AR250, AR325 and AR420 models being sold brand new for prices ranging from £299 to £420. At these prices I assume the maple top is wafer thin and of course, the neck is maple instead of mahogany.
Ibanez ART/ARZ - Other than the ARZ having a more sculptured neck joint I'm not sure what the difference is between these two. They're certainly cheaper than the LTD models but again, it's a maple neck and maple veneer if it even has that.
Yamaha SG - I've always loved these guitars ever since I first came across Santana so I could be sorely tempted by a 700. The problem with a used guitar for me is usually one of condition. My guitars are always absolutely mint and I rarely find a used guitar in the same condition as mine.
Dean - Tried one a few months ago and I was quite impressed but I felt more at home with the LTD I tried (not an EC model).
Schecter - tend to have quite chunky necks.
All in all, I don't seem to be much further on :( It sounds like to get a Les Paul tone the best option is still LTD but I'd at least have to go to the EC-1000 to get a proper maple top and I'm not even sure of that. Once I get to that model I'm also starting to pay £100+ of a premium over the PRS for a guitar with much worse fret access, though I suppose I'd get used to it - most other people seem to be able to manage it.
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if LP's are too expensive, how about a tokai or edwards?? their mid range stuff isn't quite up there with an LP (although i think the higher end stuff is better made while still being cheaper than most standard gibsons), but very doable. I think the edwards have slimmer necks too
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I think the edwards have slimmer necks too
They do, and the new Edwards models currently in the shops seem to have slightly slimmer necks than Edwards guitars made 5 or 6 years ago.
They new ones are too slim for me - BUT, I think they might still be too thick for people who like slim necks.
LTD - The spec of the EC-401 does mention a maple top but I suspect it's only a maple veneer. If I moved up to the EC-1000 I'm just not sure. It may or may not be a proper maple cap. Does anybody know?
Oddly enough, I think the EC-1000 models are all mahogany, no maple top at all.
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they've stopped making the japanese jacksons so i'd think long and hard before selling it- not saying not to, because only you know what you want, but if you do sell it, you might never be able to get another one, so you need to be sure.
also you don't have anything with single coils, either.
really you need about 10 guitars. there's your problem. trying to do it with 2? does not compute, lol.
but more seriously, assuming you still play enough heavier stuff to justify the jackson, i'd keep the jackson, maybe swap the pickups in the PRS for something more pafy/hot pafy and then maybe get something with fender-style single coils.
if you do want to go the gibson etc. route there are some decent deals on last year's models if you don't mind laminated rosewood, baked maple and the like.
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really you need about 10 guitars. there's your problem. trying to do it with 2? does not compute, lol.
Only 10? :P
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The Jackson is certainly a beautiful guitar but I find I'm playing less and less full-on Metal and what I do still play can be covered perfectly adequately by the PRS. I don't actually play the Jackson that much anymore though I suppose these things come and go and I may fall back in love with it in a month or two. In the past, I did have all of three guitars for a while :o but I just found that the third was played so rarely it seemed pointless keeping it. I've always loved Blues but I find that as I get older (rapidly approaching 50) I'm drawn towards playing Blues more and more so it seems sensible to invest in a guitar that will play that style really well. Gary Moore is easily my favourite guitarist, especially when ripping into some Blues. Maybe that's why I'm drawn towards a Les Paul style guitar even though most I've tried have been a pain to play.
Upon closer inspection it seems that even the EC-1000 has no maple top so the difference between the EC-401 and EC-1000 is actually pretty marginal. So what difference is it likely to make on the tone by having a single-cut without the maple cap you get on a Les Paul?
I've looked at the Epiphone Prophecy and it seems really nice but I wish they did it with the better access joint they use on the Matt Heafy model. I'm not sure what the neck access is like on the LTD because it's hard to find a decent picture while on the Ibanez models, the neck joint on the ARZ looks pretty good.
If the necks on the Edwards are slim, they may be worth a look but where do I find one here in the UK?
Basically I guess I'm after a Gary Moore Blues tone with maybe a bit more compression in a guitar that is up to approximately £600. (that's for the guitar only - I'll sort out pickups on top of that)
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^ No worries. As I said, think long and hard before selling it (your saying that you may fall in love with it again suggests it'd be worth not doing anything too hasty), but only you know exactly what you want, and if you do think about it and decide you'd rather have something else, then by all means go for it.
Japanese tokais might be worth a look. You might (if you're lucky) find one for around £600.
There are some deals on Gibsons at the moment too, but not sure if any are really les paul standard-style.
Normally I prefer a maple top, I think. It adds a bit of brightness. Not sure if I've tried it on otherwise identical les pauls, though. Of course, lots of players like all-mahogany guitars, too, so it just depends on what you like.
Only 10? :P
I was trying not to scare him away, that's the conservative estimate :lol: We all know the correct number of guitars to own is "Just one more..." :D
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Only 10? :P
I was trying not to scare him away, that's the conservative estimate :lol: We all know the correct number of guitars to own is "Just one more..." :D
I believe there is actually a formula for this: x = n + 1
Where x = the ideal number of guitars and n = the number of guitars you (currently) own...
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At the moment I'm in no particular rush with the Jackson. If someone came along who was interested, I'd sell it and if I still have it in maybe a year's time I'll start to be a bit more proactive about selling it. I took some pictures of it the other day and it really is like new. There's not even any scratches on the back! What do you think would be a fair price for it with the original Seymour Duncan pickups back in it? I figure whatever that is, it would be about £150 more with the Bare Knuckles. All of the internal Bare Knuckle electronics I'll just leave in there.
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Obviously there's only so much I can do online and eventually I have to play them but some do now seem more likely than others.
PRS - If the Tremonti is as bright or brighter than a Custom 24 I see absolutely no point in getting it as I might as well just get a second Custom 24 and change the tone with different pickups. That being the case, if I am to get a PRS that isn't a Custom 24 it would have to have the fat neck and the best option there seems to be the Bernie Marsden so I'll give that a try.
LTD - Everything I've heard suggests the EC-401 is a really good guitar and I know the neck is ideal for me. Upper fret access doesn't seem to be much better than any other Les Paul style guitar so it really depends on whether it has that deep and rich Les paul tone or not. If it doesn't, I won't be interested as again, I'd be better with a Custom 24 or one of the all mahogany LTD double cuts.
Epiphone - Due to my reservations about the quality of the Epiphones in comparison to PRS or LTD I'd say the Prophecy is out of the running as I can't see it giving me anything I can't get from PRS or LTD. The Matt Heafy model is a different story as the upper fret access on that is astonishing so I think I have to look at that.
Ibanez - A late consideration this but one that certainly seems to have some merits. Two models seem possible; the ART and ARZ. Both will have reasonably slim necks and both have fairly cheap models where the only difference with the more expensive ones are cheap Ibanez pickups but as I'd be changing the pickups anyway, that's not really an issue for me. The ART has the disadvantage of what looks like a conventional neck joint but other than that it seems fine, though again, it would depend on how close its core tone is to a Les Paul. The ARZ has much better upper fret access so the only thing that obviously puts me off this is the lack of fret markers (the main reason I bought the Jackson instead of the Torero) and of course, it would still depend on how close it is to a Les Paul in core tone. Given that these guitars are approximately half the price of the LTD and PRS models I'm looking at, thanks mainly to cheap stock pickups, I'd be able to install my preferred Bare Knuckle pickups and change all of the electrical internals to Bare Knuckle and still have some change. I'm sure the EC-401 is superb but clearly I'd be partly paying for EMG pickups that I'd never actually use.
So there it is; I'm pretty sure that the Bernie Marsden will sound the closest to a Les Paul so that's my starting point and if I can live with the neck, I'll get that. With all of the others, it's really about which one is closest to that Les Paul tone I'm after and I'll probably buy whichever one is most deep, rich and resonating. If none of them are significantly closer than a Custom 24 and I don't like the wide fat neck, I'll just get another Custom 24. Simples
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I'm pretty sure the 22's and 24's both have the same scale, as do the mcartys. Its the single cut 245's that have the gibson scale. The rest are 25" halfway dead in between?
You could be right. I'm not familiar with most PRS-models, only that the SE-guitars deliver a lot of guitar for the money.
He is right.
Cheers Stephan
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I believe there is actually a formula for this: x = n + 1
Where x = the ideal number of guitars and n = the number of guitars you (currently) own...
yep exactly :lol:
At the moment I'm in no particular rush with the Jackson. If someone came along who was interested, I'd sell it and if I still have it in maybe a year's time I'll start to be a bit more proactive about selling it. I took some pictures of it the other day and it really is like new. There's not even any scratches on the back! What do you think would be a fair price for it with the original Seymour Duncan pickups back in it? I figure whatever that is, it would be about £150 more with the Bare Knuckles. All of the internal Bare Knuckle electronics I'll just leave in there.
It's hard to say really. I don't really know too much about second-hand values. normally if something is in really good condition (as a seller) you'd be trying to get close to 70-75% of the going rate new. Whether you'd get that is another thing, lol, especially in the current market (which is another reason why selling now might be a bad idea unless you absolutely have to). Though the fact it's been discontinued might up the value a little bit, too.
EDIT: the other thing i'd say is, all those guitars you're looking at are, IMO anyway, arguably a step-down from your jackson. Obviously if the jackson is totally unsuitable for what you want to play now, it may still be worth it... but again i'd think long and hard about downgrading. I'd personally rather have a better guitar, lol.
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It's all good advice and I promise not to rush into anything. I suppose that for the last few months I've just been drifting away from the Jackson, partly because the Rock covers band I'm in doesn't use such an extreme style a lot of the time and partly because as I hurtle towards 50 my tastes seem to be mellowing somewhat. With regards to it being a step down, that may well be true but I reason that when I bought the Jackson, a chunk of what I paid for was Seymour pickups that I changed to Bare Knuckle and an OFR trem that I will no longer need. I have, however, decided that an Epiphone of any description is too much of a step down so they're out. Everyone says the LTD is a great guitar but enough people have said that upper fret access is horrible for me to believe that this is also unlikely. That leaves the Ibanez ARZ and PRS. I think my first port of call is going to be trying the Bernie Marsden model as I've heard nothing but excellent reports and find out for myself if the wide fat is too thick for me. If it is, I'll try the Tremonti next and then work from there. Actually, I came up with two other options and I wondered if anyone had any experience of them. One is a Chapman ML-2 and the other is a Charvel Desolation DS-1 or DS-2
http://www.andertons.co.uk/solid-body-electric-guitars/pid24522/cid671/charvel-desolation-series-ds1-st-in-trans-red.asp (http://www.andertons.co.uk/solid-body-electric-guitars/pid24522/cid671/charvel-desolation-series-ds1-st-in-trans-red.asp)
http://www.andertons.co.uk/solid-body-electric-guitars/pid24526/cid671/charvel-desolation-series-ds2-st-in-trans-red.asp (http://www.andertons.co.uk/solid-body-electric-guitars/pid24526/cid671/charvel-desolation-series-ds2-st-in-trans-red.asp)
http://www.andertons.co.uk/solid-body-electric-guitars/pid25504/cid671/chapman-ml2-in-antique-sunburst.asp (http://www.andertons.co.uk/solid-body-electric-guitars/pid25504/cid671/chapman-ml2-in-antique-sunburst.asp)
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I thinkk you should give a bigger neck a chance, big necks mean more toanz, and also real men play big necks, otherwise i'm going to have to ask you to shave your beard off and hand in your man card.
;)
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:mrgreen: Well I'd better give themn a go then as I'm not sure I'm ready for the sex change operation just yet!
It's certainly about getting the balance right between tone and playability. I had an Ibanez RG for quite a while and when I first switched to the Jackson, even that neck felt like a baseball bat! Of course, I got used to it and the Jackson neck is ideal now. I can even cope fine with the PRS wide thin, though the Jackson neck is still my marginal favourite. I'm pretty sure that the Bernie Marsden will have the tone I want but it seems the neck is even chunkier than the wide fat but I will give it a go and if it doesn't work out, I'll try a 245 as well. The PRS SE range seems to have the best quality at this price point so I really think I should have an extensive try of their range before I dismiss anything. Even if someone came along and bought my Jackson tomorrow, I'd still take my time over this purchase and try plenty guitars.
I'm intrigued by the Chapman ML-2 but it seems that although the specs on the Charvel are fantastic, they're made in China and call me a gear snob if you want but I'm not dropping £500ish on a guitar made in China, especially when coming from a Japanese made Jackson. I have no issue with Korean PRS guitars as the quality of my Custom 24 isn't that far off the Jackson and I believe the quality of the EC-401/EC-1000 is also very good. I don't find Korean Ibanez guitars to be quite as good but then the ARZ300 is rather cheaper anyway and as I don't like fretboards without inlays, I was toying with using the saving to get a luthier to fit a new fretboard to it with inlays and jumbo frets. It wouldn't be my first choice but it's something I may investigate.
In the meantime, bring on those big necks :guitar4:
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In the meantime, bring on those big necks :guitar4:
You'll be playing a '54 Les Paul before you know it. :P
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The EC-401 is alright but i did find it to be extremely hard to play sitting down and it was very unalanced. Body heavy so to speak.
The upper fret access isnt actually too bad on it but the neck is pretty narrow and it cramped my hands up a lot.
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i'd still say any of those are a step down from your jackson (especially now you've pimped the cr@p out of it, which as you say, is another reason not to sell though i suppose you could sell the upgrades separately if you really cared). i'm not sure they're that different from an epi (but i could be wrong). i've heard some horror stories about the newer charvels (but haven't tried them myself).
upper fret access isn't gonna be great if you want a LP style, really. Unless you get one with the feline-type heel (and even then, i suspect it's "better" rather than "great").
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Yes, I know, I've taken a great guitar and made it fantastic but I'm a practical guy and if I'm not using it enough, I'd rather it went to a decent home. The BKP switch, pots and cap made so much difference that if I'd tried that first I may not have rushed into buying the pickups! Having said that, the Miracle Man really sits well in the Jackson and is perfect for Metal music and with what I've done with the single coils, it's a bit of a monster guitar now :twisted: If it sells, it sells and if it doesn't, I'll see how I feel this time next year. A lad I teach told me today that his dad is going to lend me his Gibson Les Paul for a few days to see how I adapt to a thicker neck so that could be an eye opening experience that I'm looking forward to.
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ah yeah if you can try something else for a few days that'd be the best bet
and as i said, only you'll know how much you're gonna use the jackson, i'm not trying to talk you into keeping it, honest :lol:
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There's a review of the Chapman ML-2 (and ML-1) in the August issue of Guitarist - pretty favourable, and they describe it as "a real alternative to the mid-range rock dominance of the likes of LTD and Schecter".
On the downside (for you) the necks are described as "pleasantly chubby" and the maple tops are only veneers.
On the downside (for me) both are over 4kg in weight. And I'd forgotten Rob Chappers was involved, not sure I'd want to give him any of my hard-earned.....
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Tried a few and a bit further on.
LTD EC-401: Great neck but thin body and too bright for a Les Paul. Worst upper fret access I tried. Didn't like it.
PRS 245: Neck was ok, as was upper fret access. Not sure if it's massively darker than a Custom 24, in which case why not just get another Custom 24? I'll try this one again.
Gibson Les Paul Junior: Great tone but 50s neck was just too chunky.
Gibson Les Paul Studio: Better neck and great tone.
Gibson Les Paul Future: Great neck, decent tone, horrible tuning pegs.
I liked the LP Studio best but it's more than I really want to spend on a second guitar. Still to try the Ibanez ARZ.
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Gibson Les Paul Junior: Great tone but 50s neck was just too chunky.
Leave your man card at the door on your way out..
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Les Paul Classics have thin and fast necks.. can be found 2nd hand at a fairly reasonable cost.
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Les Paul Classics have thin and fast necks.. can be found 2nd hand at a fairly reasonable cost.
And you as well
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I've been giving this a lot of thought and it seems to me that getting an authentic Les Paul tone without actually buying a Les Paul is pretty difficult. I daresay something can be done with the pickups to help things along so if it's a brighter Les Paul copy, perhaps using Crawlers instead of Mules for instanmce might help. I do want to try a few more from the PRS 245 range as they are lovely guitars but if they're not significantly more like a Les Paul tone than my Custom 24, I'd be more inclined to just get another Custom 24.
I'm also determined to try an Ibanez ARZ300 at some point as it's just so cheap compared to everything else I'm considering. It looks like this is mostly due to the lack of decent pickups but as I'd be changing them for Bare Knuckles anyway, that doesn't really bother me.
I've decided that if I'm going to get a Gibson, I really should look at the secondhand market as there must be plenty Les Pauls around at a fraction of the new cost and as long as it has the slimmer 60s neck profile, I'm not too fussed which model it actually is. Once I started thinking about a used guitar, I started seriously thinking about the possibility of picking up either a Les Paul Double Cut or a Yamaha SG. Both are quite rare but you never know.
Anyway, I can't do anything until the Jackson is sold so one bridge at a time.
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i think thats a good idea for many reasons. after a while (15-20 years), all gibsons seem to go back up in value. its hard to lose money on a 2nd hand gibson.