Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Kiichi on July 09, 2013, 05:46:53 PM
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Just saw this come up in a newsletter: http://www.guitarworld.com/prs-guitars-introduces-s2-series-maryland-made-mid-priced-solidbody-electric-models#slide-2 (http://www.guitarworld.com/prs-guitars-introduces-s2-series-maryland-made-mid-priced-solidbody-electric-models#slide-2)
Basecally there is a new series made in Maryland. USA made and still only like 1,2k$ a piece. Sounds very tempting.
Wonder how good they actually turn out to be. Proabably blow most things in that price range clean out of the water I suspect.
Also there is something about that Starla I like...
What do you guys think of this?
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They're interesting, but I'm just a little bit suspicious as to what corners they've cut to make them available at this price.....
For example, it would be a shame to see PRS drop their policy of all US guitars having one-piece mahogany bodies.
The S2 Mira looks pretty cool, and 22 frets is a great new development.... shame the scratchplate is so utterly hideous. And I'm a bit puzzled how the S2 Starla seems to be pretty much identical to a "real" Starla apart from the body contouring and the tuners. Maybe they're dropping the full-price Starla?
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........... Oh $%&#ing hell, I might as well just pre-order an S2 Mira now. I'm bound to end up buying one eventually. Scratchplates can be replaced or modified. :x :roll: :lol:
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And we do have the first victim^^
I hope the way they achieve the lower price is going down a bit on wood and hardware quality compared to the high end USA, while still being above the SE version. Same with the craftsmenship involved. Since its USA better then the SE, but not as much effort as the high end USA.
The potential for a great middle ground is certainly there I think, but details would be important.
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I'm a PRS fan as everyone knows, but I think they've dropped the ball here. I've heard the necks are made from multiple pieces - scarf jointed headstocks and built up heels. Based on that, I think bodies will be multi-piece too. The Bigsby on the Starla is a licensed version, not the real McCoy. Fingerboards are fitted to the neck with frets pre-installed for speed of assembly.
I think they're responding to the US guys who won't buy an import guitar, but I think a Korean SE will be a better overall product. Especially after a refret with jumbos.
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Interresting to hear from our resident PRS expert. The way you make it sound it is far less appealing.
I wonder how they ultimatly come out sound and playability wise. Could still be good after all. I am still gonna assume they will end up being better than the SE, but the question is are they better enough (what horrible english).
With PRS delivering such quality I just canīt quite imagine that these will be a ball dropped, but of course it could be.
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Based on a cursory look at those details and Twinfan's comments, I don't immediately see why I'd spend more money on this than an SE version. In some respects it reminds me of when I bought my Jackson. One of the reasons I went for it was that it was made in Japan and the build quality of Japanese instruments is excellent so I suppose these S2 guitars are equivalent to a Japanese Jackson, Ibanez or ESP. They certainly sound like they will hit a similar price point. The trouble is that I'm now on my second Korean made PRS and any difference between them and a Japanese made guitar is extremely marginal at best; if it even exists at all! The devil is in the detail of course but I just can't immediately see why I'd spend hundreds of pounds more for an S2.
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Based on a cursory look at those details and Twinfan's comments, I don't immediately see why I'd spend more money on this than an SE version.
Because they are even prettier! :D
Man I'm gassing bad for a Custom to replace my SE CU24. I don't think it can be as bad as Twinfan says. I mean, the SE bodies are mostly made out of three pieces already.
Owning both SEs and USA built ones I must say that there are room for improvement over the SEs, even though they are very good. If they get almost as good as the current Mira/Starla line up, they will be very good indeed.
And the current Starla and Mira will be discontinued, just read it on the PRS site.
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Prettier? I'm not so sure. They look much the same to me. I can't say I'm particularly bothered about the asymmetric beveled top and although I may be biased, I think the purple quilt SE CU24 I just bought is just as good looking if not better. If I could afford one, I'd buy a proper USA model as they're clearly incredible but I can't afford it and even if I could, I'm not at all convinced my meager ability would warrant the expense. The SE versions are superb for the money (Ģ600 for my new one) so the S2 models would need to be stunning to persuade me to part with almost twice the cash and I suspect that a lot of what I'd be paying for would be 'Made in USA' stamped on the back.
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Well, it's all in the eye of the beholder of course. The contours look very similar to the current Mira and Starla, and in my eyes they are much more defined than the contoured SE. The thing with the US built ones are in the details, you really notice it when holding/playing one. After playing the US ones the SEs feels cheaper. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love the SEs (I have two myself). And of course the would feel cheaper since they are about 1/4-1/3 of the price. It's just that I feel that there is quite a gap, and if these are closer to the US models they will be very nice guitars indeed.
Personally I couldn't care less were a guitar is built, but as it is now, the US factory produces some really nice guitars. If they can rub off some of that magic onto these, I could see myself getting one in the future. A single cut model of these would be killer!
So to summarize: The SEs are killer guitars for the money, they really are. But there is quite a gap to the US ones, and the S2 models will probably be great guitars for the money too.
Twinfan: Just read on the PRS site that the bodies are one piece. Didn't say anything about how they make the necks though...
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I'm a PRS fan as everyone knows, but I think they've dropped the ball here. I've heard the necks are made from multiple pieces - scarf jointed headstocks and built up heels. Based on that, I think bodies will be multi-piece too. The Bigsby on the Starla is a licensed version, not the real McCoy. Fingerboards are fitted to the neck with frets pre-installed for speed of assembly.
I think they're responding to the US guys who won't buy an import guitar, but I think a Korean SE will be a better overall product. Especially after a refret with jumbos.
Hmm, thanks to the wisdom of Twinfan I am cancelling that hypothetical pre-order.... for now. :| :lol:
And I do still have my Mira X. :)
I can see the logic of making a mid-price guitar to expand your market and appeal to the Ed Roman types who regard "import" as a dirty word..... but PRS are known for not skimping on quality, not cutting corners. It may be a successful move for them, but I think it weakens the brand image a little.
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I can see the logic of making a mid-price guitar to expand your market and appeal to the Ed Roman types who regard "import" as a dirty word..... but PRS are known for not skimping on quality, not cutting corners. It may be a successful move for them, but I think it weakens the brand image a little.
I personally donīt see how it weakens the brand image. If you cut out the assumption that it is the the Ed Roman types, which is just that, an assumption far as we know, what you are left with is putting in a middle ground in their range. Cause you gotta admit that the jump from the SE to the USA is pretty steep in term of price.
To put something in the middle there, which is after all still quite a bit up from the SEs, but far away from the USA just seems to make sense.
Personally I donīt see how this hurts the brand. Still I might be missing something as I donīt know that much about PRS.
All I see is something like an amp maker doing some great sounding cheap solid state / hybrid amps from asia and boutique type tube amps from the US. Now they wanne add in a medium priced all tube variant in the middle and are choosing the US as the manufacturing base.
The only hangup I can see there is that they chose they US as the location, but this may simply be down to being able ensure quality, or maybe the woods they wanne use are easier to ship there. Maybe it is just so they can say made in the US. Canīt really know, but if the product is able to speak for itself this canīt possibly hurt them, but might even strenthen them, no?
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You make some perfectly valid points there. When I say it may weaken the brand image, I mean it totally from a personal perspective. And note that I say "the brand image", not "the brand" - financially, it may be an absolute winner.
I just think they risk putting themselves in the same position as Gibson, where a lot of people (a minority, but a large minority) are quite critical of the standard US production guitars and would only consider buying Custom Shop models (but despite that, of course, the bulk of the business is in those standard production guitars).
Maybe that's exactly what they want. As I say, it's just my own perspective.
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Oh I misread your comment then, I thought you were meaning in the general eye of the public.
Now what you are saying makes perfect sense, especially with the Gibson analogy.
On the count of Gibson though, from what I heard the bad rep is a lot about the quality, which was not fitting the price. The standard Gibsons I tried were not up to the price too. Most of the recent comments about them I got in the last 2-3 years were on the bad side. That is a problem I donīt expect PRS having.
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Time will tell, I guess! :wink:
I must confess on the Gibson front I have joined the ranks of the Custom Shop snobs. The US production models can be very hit-or-miss, the workmanship can be downright shoddy.... but having said that, if I wanted a cheap knockabout guitar I would still 100% pick a ropey Gibson Melody Maker over some shiny Korean model. Not because of the name, but because of the vibe.
I'm not being very consistent in my arguments.... it's late. Time to sleep.
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I'm a PRS fan as everyone knows, but I think they've dropped the ball here. I've heard the necks are made from multiple pieces - scarf jointed headstocks and built up heels. Based on that, I think bodies will be multi-piece too. The Bigsby on the Starla is a licensed version, not the real McCoy. Fingerboards are fitted to the neck with frets pre-installed for speed of assembly.
I don't see the problem with going for a less wasteful use of wood to be able to offer a cheaper guitar. There is nothing wrong with a scarf jointed headstock or a stacked heel if they are done well, and i would trust PRS to do this better than any other factory. although personally i would rather see a laminated 3-piece than stacked heel and scarf
also, going licensed bigsby makes some sense too. the main difference is whether its sand cast (original) or die cast (licensed) . the licensed ones actually look a fair bit neater than the proper bigsbys and perform almost exactly the same. there is a slight weight difference with licensed being lighter and they do use different bearings so you may feel a difference played side by side, but both perform just as well really. I can't deny that i like the fact real Bigsbys still use the same old patterns made by Paul Bigsby
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All good points from everyone, we all have our opinions though right?
Just another thing to add is that the S2s will be using the SE trem/hardware and I believe pickups too. Basically, they're an SE Plus rather than a USA Minus (if that makes sense).
Personally, at Ģ1000-Ģ1100, I'd buy a mint used USA model. I saw that Andrew W's gorgeous McCarty that he was selling on here sold for Ģ950 on eBay. At that kind of resale, buying what I perceive as a lesser model new for the same money makes no sense at all...
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Ģ950 for a McCarty? Ouch. :(
It does seem that PRS resale value is low at the moment, and has been for a while. I'm sure they will go up eventually.
Glad I'm not looking to buy or sell any PRS guitars at the moment, I'm hanging on to the ones I've got.
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Ģ950 for a McCarty? Ouch. :(
It does seem that PRS resale value is low at the moment, and has been for a while. I'm sure they will go up eventually.
Glad I'm not looking to buy or sell any PRS guitars at the moment, I'm hanging on to the ones I've got.
I bet the S2 models aren't going to help things further regarding resale value.
My Ģ600 Mira with just a few small dings is staying put though. Many 2nd hand PRSes are quite the deal.
Twinfan: Of course we are all having out opinions, but I'm not as negative. I feel the S2s can bridge a nice gap.
I know the SEs and even CEs got a lot of stick back in the day, and now everyone takes them for granted (SEs). That might happen to the S2 series as well.
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It may do dvorak, and I know I'm being very negative.
I personally think PRS are too large a company for the market to stand (certainly here in the UK) and they're trying to create demand where it doesn't exist. I feel they should have stayed as a smaller company, with nice higher end products and good resale. Flooding the market with SE amps and cost-cut guitars like the Mira/Starla X that no-one buys does not help brand image. They get massively discounted and then everyone excepts all PRS products to be heavily discounted....
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I bet the S2 models aren't going to help things further regarding resale value.
Yeah, I think you could be right. :|
But it might help create a myth about, and a demand for, "pre-S2" models. :lol:
I'm going to stop all this grumbling soon ( :roll: ), but presumably these new S2 guitars don't comply with Paul Reed Smith's mystical "21 Rules of Tone" that he keeps going on about.
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Flooding the market with SE amps and cost-cut guitars like the Mira/Starla X that no-one buys does not help brand image. They get massively discounted and then everyone excepts all PRS products to be heavily discounted....
I bought a Mira X and a Starla X! :oops: :lol:
But you're dead right, they didn't seem to find an audience. I could've bought 20 of 'em for Ģ599 or Ģ699 each from DV247 a couple of years ago, if only I'd known.....
and now I'd be selling them for Ģ399 on eBay. :?
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It may do dvorak, and I know I'm being very negative.
I personally think PRS are too large a company for the market to stand (certainly here in the UK) and they're trying to create demand where it doesn't exist. I feel they should have stayed as a smaller company, with nice higher end products and good resale. Flooding the market with SE amps and cost-cut guitars like the Mira/Starla X that no-one buys does not help brand image. They get massively discounted and then everyone excepts all PRS products to be heavily discounted....
It's normal human behavior being negative to change at first ;) That's why there are so many old people complaining that it was better in the old days :D
Joke aside, it would be interesting to see how big part of Gibsons sales are in the Studio range. Just to see how big part of the market that segment is. My thoughts are that PRS don't want to create extra demand, but to steal Gibson studio customers (and other competing companies customers). It's a daring prospect, but it might work.
I do agree with you regarding the discounted models in some ways although I do still think the "core" models are on the outside, and that people are going to hopefully know it.
My first PRS was an SE, and it got me into the brand. It sort of confirmed that the specs like 25" scale and neck profiles were for me. That made me dare to take the plunge on an US CU24. And I didn't expect those kind of discounts because I know they were the real deal.
I would have the same view on a Gibson Les Paul standard, I wouldn't expect big discounts on one, but I would on a Studio.
Lets see what happens, but as long as these S2 models are good instruments, I'm not so worried.
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Doesn't stop your current PRS from being the guitars that they are now :) it just gives the average Joe and you dentists something to chat about in queues :lol:
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I've no issues with my stuff, none at all! I've just got issues with the company and the way it's currently expanding/heading.
I agree that the Gibson Studio range is what PRS are aiming at - but they're cheaper than the S2s and don't have the multi piece necks. Mind you, "baked maple" :roll:
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I think I read that they had non-USA hardware (and maybe pickups? not sure on the pickups), too.
I'm with twinfan and philly, I'm not sure it's sensible for a company which is known for not cutting corners to start cutting corners. Don't get me wrong- I'm totally in favour of cutting costs where it doesn't affect the quality of the instrument (gibson les paul juniors and specials etc. are probably the obvious example of that). Just it's a fine line between doing that and actually decreasing the quality (which is a bad thing).
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It may do dvorak, and I know I'm being very negative.
I personally think PRS are too large a company for the market to stand (certainly here in the UK) and they're trying to create demand where it doesn't exist. I feel they should have stayed as a smaller company, with nice higher end products and good resale. Flooding the market with SE amps and cost-cut guitars like the Mira/Starla X that no-one buys does not help brand image. They get massively discounted and then everyone excepts all PRS products to be heavily discounted....
I for 1 am glad they DIDN'T, otherwise I never would've been able to have afforded my 3rd or 4th hand, dinged CU22 with changed odd machineheads and lacquer on headstock logo peeling off.
I can't think of a way to say this without sounding like a d1ck, that's not my intention at all, but not everybody is in a financial position where they can afford to drop many thousands of Ģs/$s on something as non life important as a guitar. If these guitars put people in a position where they're able to afford something nicer than what they currently play, and want to upgrade, I see no issue with this.
There is always the argument of "For a similar price buy a 2nd hand USA model" and I agree with you on this, but there are some people around who just won't buy 2nd hand guitars. I find it odd myself, but these people do exist, I know several! :lol:
As said above, PRS are out to try and steal some of the 'Studio' customers from Gibson, they are a business after all and essentially exist to make money for their owners etc.
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I agree that the Gibson Studio range is what PRS are aiming at - but they're cheaper than the S2s and don't have the multi piece necks. Mind you, "baked maple"
Who said anything about issues? :D
Does the MSRP prices differ much? The street prices, at least in the US, are not going to be so bad after a while I bet. But we here in Europe are probably not as lucky, as always.
I thought Gibson glued their headstocks the same way as the S2s on all Les Pauls?
I think I read that they had non-USA hardware (and maybe pickups? not sure on the pickups), too.
I'm with twinfan and philly, I'm not sure it's sensible for a company which is known for not cutting corners to start cutting corners. Don't get me wrong- I'm totally in favour of cutting costs where it doesn't affect the quality of the instrument (gibson les paul juniors and specials etc. are probably the obvious example of that). Just it's a fine line between doing that and actually decreasing the quality (which is a bad thing).
Problem is that quality costs, so if you don't want to take the money out of an instrument anywhere you'd end up with the US prices in the end, and the same instrument too.
I find it quite cool that they are launching a more affordable guitar that can be enjoyed by a group that can't normally, or don't want to put down Ģ2000-3000 for a guitar.
It's going to be very interesting to try one of these out.
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I thought Gibson glued their headstocks the same way as the S2s on all Les Pauls?
Nope, I believe all Les Pauls and SGs from the bottom to the top have one-piece necks and heels (with the exception of the headstock 'wings').
Brow - don't get me wrong, I see what they're aiming at and what they see the S2 series as, I just don't think enough customers are shouting for it or that they're much of an upgrade from an SE. The 'X' series failed a few years ago and I don't see the S2s as an improvement in looks/design/quality over what they were for similar money. I believe PRS UK think these models are going to be "massive" - I on the other hand very much doubt it.
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I thought Gibson glued their headstocks the same way as the S2s on all Les Pauls?
Nope, I believe all Les Pauls and SGs from the bottom to the top have one-piece necks and heels (with the exception of the headstock 'wings').
Brow - don't get me wrong, I see what they're aiming at and what they see the S2 series as, I just don't think enough customers are shouting for it or that they're much of an upgrade from an SE. The 'X' series failed a few years ago and I don't see the S2s as an improvement in looks/design/quality over what they were for similar money. I believe PRS UK think these models are going to be "massive" - I on the other hand very much doubt it.
Somehow the X series didn't give me any GAS, but these do. Although it would compete with a 2nd hand one in my book for sure. I'm going to the US in November, I might pick one up then if the street prices are ok as a replacement to my SE CU24
I also doubt these will be massive over here, but hopefully they'll sell a few.
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I was talking to a PRS dealer earlier today about the S2s and even when the "full fat" Miras and Starlas were available here in the UK for Ģ1100 they didn't exactly fly off the shelves. This is why I'm not expecting much from these new models.
The Cu24 will probably be the best seller, but only to Brow's mates by the sound of it :lol:
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I was talking to a PRS dealer earlier today about the S2s and even when the "full fat" Miras and Starlas were available here in the UK for Ģ1100 they didn't exactly fly off the shelves. This is why I'm not expecting much from these new models.
The Cu24 will probably be the best seller, but only to Brow's mates by the sound of it :lol:
LOL!
I am amazed that the Miras didn't sell better. I know the looks aren't for everyone, but they sure are killer guitars. They feel just as good as any US made PRS, and they really sing with nice harmonic overtones like really expensive guitars. I like mine very much, and I didn't like the looks at first. Killer guitar that has that magic.
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Yeah, I liked the two Miras I had. I only sold them to get my ME1 as I prefer the thicker neck and overall balance/feel of the McCarty model.
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Yeah, I liked the two Miras I had. I only sold them to get my ME1 as I prefer the thicker neck and overall balance/feel of the McCarty model.
Yeah, the Miras are underrated. I bet it was like with the CEs, people view them as lesser guitars.
Good luck with the sale of the ME by the way. If I could afford it I would buy that in a heartbeat, prettiest guitar ever!
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I don't think it's interesting. I think if they wanted to hit the 'Studio' market they could do it in a better way, and if they wanted to hit gibsons 'standard' market they could do that too. I don't really like the look of these guitars. I also feel that the lower end of PRS' USA made products sees the most change and experimentation. It wouldn't surprise me if this line doesn't exist in a year or two's time replaced by some other line which is more or less the same.
if CE's are good enough for Chris Haskett, they are good enough for most people.
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dvorak - yeah, it's a stunner. Not the prettiest ever though in my eyes - prettiest on the left, best sounding on the right..... ;)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/junkacct/Guitar%20stuff/20121019_153343.jpg)
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My Bernie Marsden is the first PRS I have owned It has no issues ,not now anyway had a little work done on the nut but nothing major.Looks really nice and plays and sounds great i'll probably leave it stock. So on that basis I had no worries about it being Korean,i'm more than happy with it. It won't replace my beloved LP with Mules(which might change if I have managed to bag a set of 10th Anniversaries) but it's a more than able back up.
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Stunning Twinfan, mine seem bleak in comparison! By the looks of it the green one is a Private stock? Stunning for sure, I do think it's prettier than the collection as well. But it's like comparing Heidi Klum with Emma stone 8)
Here's my CU24:
(http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff485/svorak/cu24-03-800px.jpg)
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Nice Cu24 - love that!
The "Green Manalishi" is a Private Stock Signature from the run of 100 in 2011. The Collection V is my favourite guitar of all time, it's just astonishing.
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Nice Cu24 - love that!
The "Green Manalishi" is a Private Stock Signature from the run of 100 in 2011. The Collection V is my favourite guitar of all time, it's just astonishing.
Very very pretty, both of them! Congrats!
But lets not get to off topic, even though it's so fun looking at PRS guitars :D
I actually think these are good looking guitars too:
(http://www.prsguitars.com/s2series/img/colors/cu_aw.jpg)
(http://www.prsguitars.com/s2series/img/colors/cu_gb.jpg)
(http://www.prsguitars.com/s2series/img/colors/st_aw.jpg)
(http://www.prsguitars.com/s2series/img/colors/mi_vc.jpg)
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The more I look at the S2s, the more I think the body contouring is done in the SE factory. Here's the latest SE24 with body contouring, followed by the S2:
(http://www.prsguitars.com/secustom24/img/front.jpg)
(http://www.prsguitars.com/s2series/img/colors/cu_gb.jpg)
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Sorry twinfan, the S2 contouring has an edge like the current Miras and starlas. The current SE is just like an oval/round top.
Current Mira:
(http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff485/svorak/IMAG1461_zps9e7a876a.jpg)
S2:
(http://www.prsguitars.com/s2series/gallery/sample-images/custom_white_1.jpg)
(http://www.prsguitars.com/s2series/gallery/sample-images/starla_cherry_1.jpg)
(http://www.prsguitars.com/s2series/gallery/sample-images/anotherlostyear_1.jpg)
Current SE:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8479/8235680633_9ab928a3d1_b.jpg)
To me the SEs looks/feels much more like a slab board even with the beveling.
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Gotcha - real life pics help a lot more!
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Some confirmation on the S2s:
* The guitars are carved, sanded, assembled, and built in the USA.
* They have an SE tremolo/bridge, and an SE Pickup built to a USA spec.
* They have upgraded pots, not sure if they're US or import.
* Tuners are pretty much US Phase IIs (i.e. early 2000s spec).
Sounds like an SE with US woods, basically. As I said earlier, an SE 'Plus'.
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Some confirmation on the S2s:
* The guitars are carved, sanded, assembled, and built in the USA.
* They have an SE tremolo/bridge, and an SE Pickup built to a USA spec.
* They have upgraded pots, not sure if they're US or import.
* Tuners are pretty much US Phase IIs (i.e. early 2000s spec).
Sounds like an SE with US woods, basically. As I said earlier, an SE 'Plus'.
Don't forget, they have US frets and nut, that's pretty cool.
I'm going to give this some time, but I'm actually GASsing a little for a S2 CU24 :D
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I think that broadly speaking we're all on the same page here. There's clearly a huge price hike between an SE and a PRS made in the USA so it makes absolute sense to have a model range that sits somewhere between the two and that logic is not just down to price. PRS is a well respected brand that many guitarists would love to own but let's face it, how many mere mortals are going to be able to drop Ģ2000-Ģ3000 on a guitar? I'd love one but even ignoring my limited funds, the sad reality is that I'm a guitarist of limited ability who plays at home and gigs in pubs so for what I'd use it for, I'd never be able to justify that expense unless I won the lottery! I suspect many other guitarists are like me. Conversely, I'd be inclined to believe that there are equally guitarists out there who'd love a PRS but can't afford it and won't buy the SE because it's 'entry level'. The whole 'student edition' tag doesn't help here either. As a result, I'm inclined to believe that there is a market out there for the S2.
So, if that's not my issue with it, what is? For me, it boils down to Twinfan's comment that the S2 is more like an 'SE Plus' rather than a 'PRS Minus' and that's where, for me, they've gone wrong. Like it or not, manufacturing a guitar in the USA is more expensive than doing so in Korea, which means that if they are to control the costs, they have to do it in areas other than labour and premises etc. and in this case, part of that means using SE hardware. That being the case, you are inevitably paying a chunk of the price difference over the SE for the privilege of having 'Made in USA' stamped on the back. Personally, I'd rather they kept costs down by making it in Korea with the SE but throwing more money at the quality of the components involved and leave the USA models as the absolutely top drawer guitars. So what is this extra Ģ400-Ģ500 going to actually get me over the SE model?
US woods, crafted in the USA factory - Nice and I'd like that but not at that price.
SE pickup built to US spec - Not remotely interested as I'll change them to BKP anyway.
Upgraded pots - Not remotely interested as I'll change them to BKP anyway.
Different tuners - Nothing hugely wrong with the SE tuners I have and though I may upgrade them, I'd rather choose my own upgrade.
US frets - Nice touch this but I can easily live without them (the US spec ones, not the frets themselves).
US nut - Again, quite nice but I'm not that bothered and I can easily upgrade that on an SE anyway.
Better carved body - Yes, nice again but I wouldn't be selling my granny to have this over the SE version.
I'm not saying I wouldn't buy an S2, but I doubt I'd buy a new one. If an S2 version of the Custom 24 came up about a year or so old and in mint condition I'd pay around Ģ600 for it as that's what a new SE costs.
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^ yep, got to be right with you there on all counts.
A Korean made 'S2' with USA hardware, electronics and pickups (plus bigger frets than the really low/skinny SEs) would have been a better choice as a mid-range option for the UK I think.
However, as I said earlier, I think this range is for the guys and gals who won't buy anything other than a US guitar even if it is inferior to an alternative...
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I agree with Slartibartfast42 and Twinfan. The question really is, if there is a market for these. PRS is doing so well because they make amazing top end guitars, and affordable ones in the SE range. Why do they need one model in between that is neither fish nor fowl, if
a) they already know the Miras don't sell well
b) the market bracket in the 800-1600 pound bracket is highly competitive, with many companies already well-established.
Furthermore, I think that PRS are overlooking the fact that used higher model USA models already sell at the price of the new models will go for. The second hand market, at least from my feel, is full of bargains. Nothing's sell at high prices anymore, which makes it unattractive to buy a new guitar. I think the mid-price guitar market has become very saturated and that manufacturers will feel the pressure of that very soon.
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Now I've seen those "real life" pictures, the GAS has reignited a bit!
The body contouring looks very nicely done - better than the SEs.
Presumably the pots are USA ones, unless they're getting lampshade knobs specially made to fit metric pots.
The "minor" hardware (e.g. jack plate) looks like USA stuff.
I'd swap the pickups, so that's not an issue.
I've even got a couple of spare US bridges (hardtail).
Still not happy about the economical use of timber (I know that's politically incorrect). But the bottom line, I suppose, is let's wait and see.
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I think I like them because I like my Mira so much. Looking at the real life pictures I think they remind me much more of the Mira than the SEs.
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We keep mentioning these as similar to Gibson studios, but if you look at the current gibson line up of USA made guitars priced below a standard you have
*melody makers
*Juniors
*LPJ/SGJ
*studio satin
*Studio tributes (50's to future)
*studio
*studio deluxes
all priced below the standard range with various cost cutting measures applied. All of these seem to mix within the epiphone price range. all seems to sell reasonably well - although sometimes they start overpriced and end up selling well as end of line deals at a lower price
i can see why PRS would look at that and think they could do a better job of it.
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We keep mentioning these as similar to Gibson studios, but if you look at the current gibson line up of USA made guitars priced below a standard you have
*melody makers
*Juniors
*LPJ/SGJ
*studio satin
*Studio tributes (50's to future)
*studio
*studio deluxes
all priced below the standard range with various cost cutting measures applied. All of these seem to mix within the epiphone price range. all seems to sell reasonably well - although sometimes they start overpriced and end up selling well as end of line deals at a lower price
i can see why PRS would look at that and think they could do a better job of it.
I half agree with you. It would not surprise me if PRS could make a better guitar for this price point than Gibson, what PRS don't have, amongst non guitar nerds is the history and cultural cachet. There are plenty of people I know who have decided that they want a better guitar than an entry level but also hanker for something that looks like the guitars played by their heroes. It doesn't really matter how good the PRS Ss are, they aren't a Les Paul or a Strat and for that reason alone I'd be surprised if these new guitars sell well.
The other reason I wonder how this will pan out is the price of second hand guitars. As Twinfan pointed out, my '95 McCarty went for about Ģ950, which is peanuts given how good a guitar it is but I can't really complain because I bought my DGT for a bargain price so I've gained as much as I've lost really. The point is, I would not even consider buying a new PRS when the second hand market is full of really well looked after, premium quality instruments, at prices that are frankly ridiculous considering the amount of guitar you get.
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I've seen negative things in this thread about the multipiece necks. Why is that? I own a 2002 McCarty, which is a great guitar. But it too has a one piece neck (well, small headstock wings glued but I'm not counting those), and I'm not too fond of that. The angled headstock with the grain running out is the obvious weakest point of that neck. No volute there, no glued on headstock. I wish it had one of those.
If they glue the headstock in there, it'll only make the neck stronger. No grain run-out and glue is stronger than wood anyway. Or are you referring to a glued neck heel? That's a pure aesthetic thing, which I can understand :)
-Zaned
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I think the neck is one of the more important components of the guitar, and the way it resonates and vibrates is key to how the guitar sounds. I think one solid piece of wood will respond better to the string vibrations than two or more bits glued together. If you play on the cleaner/bluesier/dynamic side of things, then this is really important.
If you play chugga chugga death metal, then obviously it won't matter a bit!
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We keep mentioning these as similar to Gibson studios, but if you look at the current gibson line up of USA made guitars priced below a standard you have
*melody makers
*Juniors
*LPJ/SGJ
*studio satin
*Studio tributes (50's to future)
*studio
*studio deluxes
all priced below the standard range with various cost cutting measures applied. All of these seem to mix within the epiphone price range. all seems to sell reasonably well - although sometimes they start overpriced and end up selling well as end of line deals at a lower price.
Here in Australia for the last six months the best deals have been on the Standard range. SG Standards like mine have been selling for $1650, which is a long way under RRP (which is over $2K), whereas Specials etc have been discounted by $200-300 at best and cost around $1250 (i.e, $400 less) with a useless 'gig bag' instead of a case and nowhere near the finish (e.g., no binding on the neck, no pearl inlays, etc). When you consider that a genuine Gibson SG case will cost you $200 the Special doesn't look like a great deal compared to the Standard.
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Yeah, we all have our opinions :)
This is an interesting video on how finnish luthier Juha Ruokangas chose to make the neck for his 'Unicorn' model (very LP -like):
http://www.ruokangas.com/?p=63 (http://www.ruokangas.com/?p=63)
Not created with chugga chugga death metal music in mind, I think :wink: Also an interesting tip on the maple splines (at 3:40) he uses. I think I've seen one other finnish company start to use that same method too.
Ruokangas also adds an ebony faceplate to the headstock. Improves tone too, according to him..
-Zaned
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On the one-piece versus multi-piece neck thing, I'm perfectly happy to accept the argument that various types of multi-piece construction give a stronger, stiffer neck - be it a scarf-jointed headstock, or a three piece construction like Hamer and Feline use, or some kind of multi-laminate.
Whether or not any or all of those methods make a guitar sound better, I don't know, I have no opinion.
But in the context of this PRS discussion, Paul Reed Smith is a guy who regularly deconstructs his own guitars and reconsiders every tiny detail of their construction. He must have come to the conclusion, long ago, that a one-piece neck is, from his point of view, "best".
So, from that perspective, a PRS with a multi-piece neck can't be anything other than corner-cutting and a drop in their own standards.
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..unless you start seeing that change also in the more expensive ones.
One likes the mother, other likes the daughter. And one likes both :lol: Like the PRS stoptail bridge vs. a tune-o-matic: they do sound different. Is one better or worse than the other? No.
PRS does use a tune-o-matic variotion in their current singlecut though.
I still like the idea of a more strong and stable neck. Kinda makes me wonder, as the angled area of say a Gibson LP is the weakest point in the neck, doesn't that point also weaken tone transfer? That's one area where it would be nice to hold a few specimens where a some are made with a multi piece neck, and others with one piece. Otherwise identical. Not that I'd likely ever be able to do that kind of a comparison.
-Zaned
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It would be a bit odd if he'd spent 30 years doing things like reformulating finishes, swapping to brass screws instead of steel, or changing to unplated bridge studs.... and hadn't considered the construction of the neck. But who knows, you could be right. :P
Personally, if I was getting a custom guitar built, I would probably ask for the three-piece Hamer style construction, on the basis that it would be stiffer, stronger and might help defeat dead spots. I might even go for a volute, just because I kind of like them.
But, being a bit of a traditionalist, I've owned dozens of guitars with one-piece mahogany necks and - touch wood - apart from the odd dead spot I've had no problems. I do remember one which had a slight twist/warp in the neck when sighting down the fingerboard, but even that was playable.
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I personally think PRS are too large a company for the market to stand (certainly here in the UK)
you really should have told PRS that you were stopping buying guitars :lol:
There is always the argument of "For a similar price buy a 2nd hand USA model" and I agree with you on this, but there are some people around who just won't buy 2nd hand guitars. I find it odd myself, but these people do exist, I know several! :lol:
I'm not actually that keen on 2nd hand stuff. Admittedly, the used market here isn't that great, and it's a lot harder to get to check out that used bargain on ebay here than it is in england (if the seller is in england), but yeah.
That being said, I wouldn't buy one of these either, especially if there were an easily available used "proper" PRS that I could check out.
Problem is that quality costs, so if you don't want to take the money out of an instrument anywhere you'd end up with the US prices in the end, and the same instrument too.
I find it quite cool that they are launching a more affordable guitar that can be enjoyed by a group that can't normally, or don't want to put down Ģ2000-3000 for a guitar.
It's going to be very interesting to try one of these out.
Oh I appreciate that, the problem is that if you cut the quality too much you lose what made the thing desirable in the first place :lol:
I just don't think... that they're much of an upgrade from an SE.
That's my concern
On the other hand...
Some confirmation on the S2s:
* The guitars are carved, sanded, assembled, and built in the USA.
* They have an SE tremolo/bridge, and an SE Pickup built to a USA spec.
* They have upgraded pots, not sure if they're US or import.
* Tuners are pretty much US Phase IIs (i.e. early 2000s spec).
Sounds like an SE with US woods, basically. As I said earlier, an SE 'Plus'.
Considering the wood is the bit that matters (from the upgrading point of view), you could probably make the case that, if you can just about afford an S2, you could get it and upgrade it later with better pickups etc. (though am I right in thinking that PRS doesn't sell its trems separately? if so, that'd suck, unless they made an exception if you proved you had an S2).
From that point of view (sitting on the fence here :lol: ) I'd far rather have an S2 than a pimped-out SE. You can't really improve the already-upgraded SE, whereas you can upgrade the S2 and (theoretically, anyway) have a better guitar in the end.
Though (as with any upgrading) you'd need to watch you just didn't end up paying more than would get you a "proper" PRS, of course...
On the one-piece versus multi-piece neck thing, I'm perfectly happy to accept the argument that various types of multi-piece construction give a stronger, stiffer neck - be it a scarf-jointed headstock, or a three piece construction like Hamer and Feline use, or some kind of multi-laminate.
Whether or not any or all of those methods make a guitar sound better, I don't know, I have no opinion.
But in the context of this PRS discussion, Paul Reed Smith is a guy who regularly deconstructs his own guitars and reconsiders every tiny detail of their construction. He must have come to the conclusion, long ago, that a one-piece neck is, from his point of view, "best".
So, from that perspective, a PRS with a multi-piece neck can't be anything other than corner-cutting and a drop in their own standards.
agreed
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Sitting at home this morning (waiting for Parcelforce....) I've been reading about the S2 series on the PRS website. It goes into quite a lot of detail, but it's very reminiscent of reading guitar specs on the Gibson site - everything is talked up very positively, but there are just little hints about savings that are kind of glossed over:
Wood is the foundation of a guitars tone. If you sacrifice the foundation, there is little hope of achieving an exceptional instrument. Believing this, we have chosen the same traditional tonewoods that are used on PRS Core guitars, such as maple tops, mahogany backs and bodies, mahogany necks, and rosewood fretboards. While some of the design and construction methods used in the S2 Series (the neck blanks starting dimension across the Series and the S2 Customs wood grade, for example) allowed us to use less expensive and more readily available woods, no compromise has been made to the tone or integrity of S2 instruments.
So, less expensive and more readily available.... but still maple and mahogany.... but no compromise. No mention of one-piece bodies (or otherwise). And what was that bit about "wood grade"? :? :lol:
Our PRS S2 locking tuners are used across the S2 Series. These proprietary tuners are reminiscent of our Phase II tuners and follow many of Paul Smiths tweaks, including a brass shaft and specially-configured internal construction. The locking mechanism itself is identical to the one used on our Core guitars, which helps the guitar stay in tune.
Reminiscent of... but not the same. Perhaps the same as the SE tuners, but with added locking mechanisms?
When designing, sourcing, and building the S2 Series, we were encouraged and excited to build quality instruments that were both inspired by our Core line but also truly new for PRS. We believe this is evident in every detail. If there was a time that we could not share a component with our current Core lineup, we set out to design a new process for ourselves or source new, proprietary components from our partners.
....because it was too expensive.
That said, the nut, jack assembly, fret wire, electronics knobs, and strings are all shared between our Core and S2 instruments. It is long-lasting and is comfortable to play. The electronics knobs are made in our own proprietary mold, which results in a handsome and ergonomic design.
Good news. But note it says "electronics knobs", not "electronics, knobs".... a typo, or a hint that the actual electronics are cheaper? :P
I'm just having a bit of fun with this, but they are definitely playing a game here, dropping hints when they could just have said "the timber is cheaper so we can sell you the guitar cheaper" or "the pickups and hardware are made by our partners in Korea". They'll say when something is the same as the "Core" (new term that's appeared from nowhere?) US line, but they're a bit coy when it isn't. Just come out and say it, PRS. I'll probably still buy the guitar. :lol:
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These guitars seems to stir up a lot of thoughts and emotions. I can't really understand why still, it's just another guitar line. I do remember whet Porsche launched the Cayenne, there were tons of talk that Porsche diluted it's brand name and it's sporty image. Well, Porsche is on top of it's brand image with better sports cars than ever with the GT3 RS, but at the same time makes more money than before. I see similarities here :D
If you want the full blown PRS experience you have to pay. But to make a guitar cheaper, you have to cut the costs somewhere, otherwise it would still cost the same.
It seems like most people want a US CU24 in the S2 without accepting that they have to cut corners somewhere, and are disappointed that it isn't the same guitar. Of course the S2 isn't, this IS a cheaper model.
I wonder how good an S2 is going to be with a set of Holy Divers in it? :D
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Very good research Phil. A couple of comments from me on your findings:
* "electronics knobs" - they're talking about the lampshade knobs only. I would speculate that the pots are import with US spec shafts.
* "less expensive and more readily available woods". Mahogany and maple is specced, as it is on the SEs. I would speculate that the woods are far-eastern, possibly even rough cut in the same factory as the SEs and then shipped to the US for final sanding and assembly.
PRS have been very, very naughty with their marketing of the woods used in high end products in recent years and to my eyes it looks like the same team has crafted all the S2 information. Caveat emptor.....
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good work there philly :)
^ That would suck about the wood (I suspect you're right). One of the major reasons to buy a western- (or japanese-) built guitar, IMO, is to get good quality wood. If you're not getting that...
I suppose it could be african "mahogany", though. That'd be (presumably) a bit cheaper than the south american stuff, but still (again, presumably) a fair bit better than the stuff used on (most) korean-made guitars.
What do you mean about the marketing for the high-end models? I'm not too well up on PRS and haven't been paying too close attention. Assuming you're willing to elaborate and aren't worried about getting sued for libel, lol. :)
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It won't be African mahogany in the S2s. That's what PRS now use for their regular USA models (they switched from South American quite a few years ago), and they state that the S2 stuff is even cheaper. This is why I think they're using SE-spec stuff.
The high end wood thing is a long story, but it relates to "sinker mahogany" and "chaltecoco pernambuco". Google is your friend ;)
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I love reading these PRS wood (corksniffing) threads :D ... They confuse me, iritate me and amuse me.. Then my brain goes totally woolly & I realise the sand of my life is draining through the hour glass. :?
Remember the quote "If it sounds good it is good"
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I knew you'd like that sort of stuff Dave ;)
I'm all for sounding good being good, but if I'm being charged a fortune for 50p worth of fence post I'd like to know about it!
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I knew you'd like that sort of stuff Dave ;)
I'm all for sounding good being good, but if I'm being charged a fortune for 50p worth of fence post I'd like to know about it!
I accept your point but I bet you'd crawl on your bleeding knees for Billy Gibbons' "Muddywood guitar, made from salvaged wood from Muddy Waters cabin... possibly fence posts. :lol:
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:lol: Nice work, sir ;)
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I don't really care what the wood is, so long as it sounds good - it only bothers me because they use strange "Emperors New Clothes" names to avoid saying what it actually is.
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Modern life consists of us..
Buying "Cod" and eating Pangasius catfish..
Buying "Beef" and eating horse..
Voting either Labour/Tory/Liberal to sort out this mess and getting a coalition...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bAxCETz4Hb8/Tpsko5qrtKI/AAAAAAAAAes/UWlgS2yuiOY/s1600/054314450_were_doomed_answer_5_xlarge.jpg)
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Reading through this I think that if this was the route I wanted to go I'd buy an SE and throw a hipshot bridge and some VHIIs on it, rather than one of these.
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I just got an email from GuitarGuitar - the S2 Custom 24 is available to pre-order for the princely sum of Ģ1,249 (expected delivery 22 July).
I don't know what any of us were expecting them to cost, but it's not exactly cheap, is it? A big hike up from the SEs. But then again, I suppose a new "Core" ( :lol:) Cu24 is about Ģ2,400 nowadays.
No Miras or Starlas yet.
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Hipshot bridge, VHIIs, locking tuners and a refret then ;) Or, you know, a Japanese ESP
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^ I'd take the ESP...
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Hipshot bridge, VHIIs, locking tuners and a refret then ;) Or, you know, a Japanese ESP
I've got a Hipshot trem bridge I could sell you....
It'll need a new nut, too.
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Hipshot bridge, VHIIs, locking tuners and a refret then ;) Or, you know, a Japanese ESP
I've got a Hipshot trem "sleeperstock" bridge I could sell you.... at a very reasonable upcharge
It'll need a new nut, too.
*corrected* :lol:
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Upcharge? You know I only ever sell at a loss! :P
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(a) It won't be African mahogany in the S2s. That's what PRS now use for their regular USA models (they switched from South American quite a few years ago), and they state that the S2 stuff is even cheaper. This is why I think they're using SE-spec stuff.
(b) The high end wood thing is a long story, but it relates to "sinker mahogany" and "chaltecoco pernambuco". Google is your friend ;)
(a) ah right I didn't realise that. That's good to know, thanks. :drink:
And yeah I agree with you, if they're already using the african stuff on the US ones, the only (far as i'm aware) obvious cheaper option is the mystery mahogany they use on cheaper guitars :lol:
(b) thanks, I'll look into that :)
I'm all for sounding good being good, but if I'm being charged a fortune for 50p worth of fence post I'd like to know about it!
agreed 100%.
Agreed about the price too, Philly. I'd be expecting a pretty darn good guitar for Ģ1250. Not one that's been cheaped out on.
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I think the neck is one of the more important components of the guitar, and the way it resonates and vibrates is key to how the guitar sounds. I think one solid piece of wood will respond better to the string vibrations than two or more bits glued together. If you play on the cleaner/bluesier/dynamic side of things, then this is really important.
If you play chugga chugga death metal, then obviously it won't matter a bit!
I'll have to disagree with you there.
Wood may contribute to tonal characteristics, but I don't see how it could possibly effect the dynamic side of things and if it does then it certainly can't be heard once you're plugged in. Dynamics are all to do with your fingers, attack, strings and how well your pickups "pick them up".
To be totally honest, on some occasions I might even prefer multi-piece necks. They are stronger and more stable in extreme weather conditions.
Also, I may be a minority here, but the S2s look very intriguing to me. The locking tuners are a nice plus, as is the new bevelled top, US frets and nut and most importantly - a headstock that doesn't look like it was designed on Microsoft paint with word art. Honestly, one of the main reasons that I never even considered buying an SE was because of that ugly headstock design and SE logo on it. They could've at least made it removable. Maybe put it on the truss rod cover.
Also, the US quality control is always welcome.
These are a line of their own. Not SE +. Not USA -. A mid range line that compromises hardware and electronics in order to compensate for the cost of great build quality and aesthetics.
This new line is a welcome addition, in my eyes and I will seriously consider it in the future. Maybe by then they'll give it a full carved top?.... (If they do that that I don't see how they could possibly be considered and "SE +" anymore.
Btw, That Charcoal Black Custom 24 looks insane.
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I will reserve final judgement but for Ģ1250 I'd be expecting a VERY nice guitar with some quality hardware on it and made from some quality wood. That sort of money will get you a very well equipped and and very well made Japanese guitar and frankly, I'd be expecting something even better than that from PRS for that kind of money. Why? Because having had a Japanese Jackson and a Korean PRS SE, I found that there honestly wasn't much in it.
Finish - Equal
Electronics - Equal as I felt the need to change pots etc. in both of them
Pickups - I paid more for the ones in the Jackson as they were Seymour Duncan but the stock PRS pickups were very good. I actually preferred the PRS pickups but in reality, they both needed BKP so other than having to pay more for them, the Jackson had no advantage.
Bridge - OFR on the Jackson was quality but also simply different. Trem on my PRS SE is still very good and better than any Fender trem I've tried
Neck - A tad better on the Jackson but not massively different.
Tuners - Much of a muchness in operation and for tuning stability, a bit academic as the Jackson was locked down but I've had no major issues with the PRS. It holds tune very well.
Woods - The rosewood on the fretboard of the Jackson was of noticeably better quality, though the PRS resonated and sustained better.
I have had absolutely no qualms whatsoever about selling the Jackson and getting another SE because I honestly don't see it as a step down. To me, the Ģ400-Ģ500 extra I had to pay for the Jackson over a PRS SE at that time was down to an OFR I no longer need and Seymour Duncan pickups that I found to be worse than the stock PRS items! Remove those two items and we're down to better quality rosewood. Nice, but for the extra I paid I could almost have bought a second PRS SE and for me, that makes the SE range astonishingly good value. Don't get me wrong, the Jackson was a fantastic guitar but that's my point; so is the PRS SE. In my experience, it does stand comparison to Japanese made guitars and while I realise it's not made at a PRS factory, they must have a hand in the quality control and selection of materials because the SE range is streets ahead of any other Korean guitar I've owned or tried. Having owned a Mexican Strat, I'd say it's easily better than those too and not a poke in the eye away from the quality of an American Fender, or at least, any of the American Fenders I've tried over the years.
I have two PRS SE Custom 24 guitars now and once I've changed the pots, caps and pickups, there's honestly nothing else I find I really want to alter. In due course the nuts will be upgraded but I'm not in a rush to really do anything else. It seems to me that I'd pay nearly twice as much for an S2 and other than the nut, still have to make the same changes so exactly why should I bother?
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Woods - The rosewood on the fretboard of the Jackson was of noticeably better quality, though the PRS resonated and sustained better.
That's one thing I have noticed about the SE range in general, they often have rather ropey-looking rosewood boards and there's something in the production process which seems to leave "white stuff" embedded in the grain.
When I bought my SE EG from Sound Control (RIP) in the basement of the Virgin Megastore (RIP!) they had loads in stock and I was able to pick one with an exceptionally nice rosewood board. It is actually the main reason I've kept the guitar! :roll: :lol:
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My older PRS is now much better than it was but it's taken many careful and regular treatments with fretboard conditioner and lemon oil. It will never be as good as the Jackson though as the base material just isn't of the same quality. It's a minor point though, and not something I'd pay a lot more for on an S2.
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That's one thing I have noticed about the SE range in general, they often have rather ropey-looking rosewood boards and there's something in the production process which seems to leave "white stuff" embedded in the grain.
yeah i noticed that too. :lol:
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I'm all for sounding good being good, but if I'm being charged a fortune for 50p worth of fence post I'd like to know about it!
My first experience with proper south american mahogany was a pair of 6x6" beams that were actually being used as fence posts shortly before i claimed them... for considerably less than 50p ;) and i got 6 bodies worth of premium mahogany,
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I think the neck is one of the more important components of the guitar, and the way it resonates and vibrates is key to how the guitar sounds. I think one solid piece of wood will respond better to the string vibrations than two or more bits glued together. If you play on the cleaner/bluesier/dynamic side of things, then this is really important.
If you play chugga chugga death metal, then obviously it won't matter a bit!
I'll have to disagree with you there.
Wood may contribute to tonal characteristics, but I don't see how it could possibly effect the dynamic side of things and if it does then it certainly can't be heard once you're plugged in. Dynamics are all to do with your fingers, attack, strings and how well your pickups "pick them up".
To be totally honest, on some occasions I might even prefer multi-piece necks. They are stronger and more stable in extreme weather conditions.
I didn't mean playing dynamics, I agree that's all to do with your playing style. I was referring to tone and sustain and that these difference are more noticeable when playing a cleaner style of music e.g. lightly crunchy blues (think Peter Green...)
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I think the neck is one of the more important components of the guitar, and the way it resonates and vibrates is key to how the guitar sounds. I think one solid piece of wood will respond better to the string vibrations than two or more bits glued together. If you play on the cleaner/bluesier/dynamic side of things, then this is really important.
If you play chugga chugga death metal, then obviously it won't matter a bit!
I'll have to disagree with you there.
Wood may contribute to tonal characteristics, but I don't see how it could possibly effect the dynamic side of things and if it does then it certainly can't be heard once you're plugged in. Dynamics are all to do with your fingers, attack, strings and how well your pickups "pick them up".
To be totally honest, on some occasions I might even prefer multi-piece necks. They are stronger and more stable in extreme weather conditions.
I didn't mean playing dynamics, I agree that's all to do with your playing style. I was referring to tone and sustain and that these difference are more noticeable when playing a cleaner style of music e.g. lightly crunchy blues (think Peter Green...)
Well, I do agree with that. :)
Although, I find it hard to imagine that the difference would be very audible in any way and that the sustain.
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Nothing wrong with this Korean beauty
(http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k402/keith-h-08/DSC00332.jpg) (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/keith-h-08/media/DSC00332.jpg.html)
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Well, I do agree with that. :)
Although, I find it hard to I aging that the difference would be very audible in any way and that the sustain.
This is a topic on which I would like to hear the opinions of the luthiers on this forum. I've seen many respected luthiers use it, and have a hard time believing it would be a (great) tonal compromise. Different tones, maybe.
-Zaned
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I've said before that I have two identical guitars with the exception of neck wood (pernambuco vs mahogany). The 'hog is more shouty, with more lower mid growl. The pernie is sweeter and more balanced, more harp-like, and higher register notes sound bigger and sustain better.
It's quite noticeable when you play them back to back. To a punter in the pub, they won't hear any difference if the monkey on the drums is in full swing ;)
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I've said before that I have two identical guitars with the exception of neck wood (pernambuco vs mahogany). The 'hog is more shouty, with more lower mid growl. The pernie is sweeter and more balanced, more harp-like, and higher register notes sound bigger and sustain better.
It's quite noticeable when you play them back to back. To a punter in the pub, they won't hear any difference if the monkey on the drums is in full swing ;)
I'm not arguing against the effect of wood! On the contrary, it makes a big difference. Speaking about necks specifically, in a bolt on configuration with a floating bridge, the neck wood can actually really dominate the tone over the body wood.
I'm speaking purely of the effect of multipiece (with scarf jointed headstock or not) versus a single piece neck. Not counting the fretboard..
-Zaned
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Gotcha :) It would be worth a comparison for sure!
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Review (glowing!) and feature in the new issue of Guitarist.
I have to confess, I am increasingly getting premonitions of an S2 Mira in my future..... especially if the street price is less than a grand. With a set of zebra BKPs even that dodgy scratchplate could look good.
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Philly - just get an 'old' Mira. It'll be a better guitar all round - the S2s are a budget option. A nice jump up from the SEs as Guitarist state, and not as nice as a Core Line USA PRS.
For Ģ1100, there are a LOT is used Cu24s tthat can be had and a 'proper' Mira can be had for around Ģ700.
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Thinking rationally, Dave, I know you're right - which means I'll save even that Ģ700, because I had two Miras before and ultimately I couldn't get on with them because of the 24-fret necks. I won't buy another.
But can I can rationalise myself out of another guitar purchase? Years of experience say "No"...... :|
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^ :lol:
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Do
Philly - just get an 'old' Mira. It'll be a better guitar all round - the S2s are a budget option. A nice jump up from the SEs as Guitarist state, and not as nice as a Core Line USA PRS.
For Ģ1100, there are a LOT is used Cu24s tthat can be had and a 'proper' Mira can be had for around Ģ700.
Don't forget the CE's either
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Indeed, also available well under a grand.
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(Not that I'm looking to buy one anyway, but....) I've always had reservations about the CEs, due to the design of the neck joint - I think the body wood is just too thin at that point, and I've seen more than one with cracks at the sides of the neck pocket. Sometimes it might just be the finish, but even then finish cracks must be an indication of stresses in the wood at that point.
I had an old EG with the same problem, and it's noticeable that the newer bolt-on PRS models like the NF3 have a somewhat more substantial, Strat-like heel, not only extended but with a bit more wood thickness on the body side, less on the neck.
Maybe I'm over-stressing the problem (as is my wont), but it is/was definitely an issue on some guitars.
That said, I'm going to contradict myself and say I would still be interested in a nice CE Alder if I ever saw one - the different body wood takes it that bit further away from the "core" PRS models (I know the earliest CEs in the '80s/'90s also had alder bodies, but you don't see them so often on Bay).
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TBH I've seen the odd pic online, but never seen one in real life with any issues. The joints on any i've tried have felt rock solid. I appreciate it's a concern you have though, kinda like my concern with scarf jointed headstocks. there is nothing in this world that would convince me that they would be better than a single piece of wood, even though they're probably stronger.
That series ran for a long time, it wouldn't if there had have been ongoing issues. TBH i think what killed it in the end was peoples perception of it. Indeed, i remember a thread a while back where someone who didn't know referred to a CE as a (paraphrased) "low end cr@ppy model" and they had an SE (disclaimer: I am not calling SE's cr@ppy).
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For anyone still taking an interest in the S2 series (probably just me then.....)
I have carried on reading reviews and comments in forums etc, I've Googled photos of "real" ones.... but I was still fretting about the one-piece body question, it didn't seem to be mentioned anywhere. I know there's nothing wrong with two- or three-piece bodies, but in my OCD way I just like the idea of a one-piece.
So I emailed PRS:
Hi Phil,
Thank you for writing PRS Guitars. The new S2 Mira would use a solid one piece mahogany body and the available finishes include both opaque and translucent colors.
I hope you find this information helpful. Thank you for your continued support of PRS Guitars.
Which does nothing to help my GAS. I'm even starting to dig that scratchplate. :roll: :lol:
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Just spotted this:
S2 Cu24 = Ģ1249
http://worldguitars.co.uk/custom-24-mccarty-tobacco-sunburst-tbc/ (http://worldguitars.co.uk/custom-24-mccarty-tobacco-sunburst-tbc/)
Full USA Cu24 = Ģ1699
http://worldguitars.co.uk/deal-charcoal-burst-with-pattern-thin-189911/ (http://worldguitars.co.uk/deal-charcoal-burst-with-pattern-thin-189911/)
http://www.peachguitars.com/guitars/electric-guitars/prs-custom-24-faded-solana-smokeburst-10-top-with-birds.htm (http://www.peachguitars.com/guitars/electric-guitars/prs-custom-24-faded-solana-smokeburst-10-top-with-birds.htm)
I know which one I'd be buying...........
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I've kept out of this one until now, waited until there was more info etc but..
Can't say I disagree Dave..
With those kind of prices (granted its been reduced but just proves deals are there to be the had for those who look) on a full fat 24, it's really a no brainer. especially comparing US hardware to the Offshore hardware that seems to be in use on the S2..
Leave multiple price points to Fender and Gibson. PRS get back to building high end and custom guitars please.
there's a letter in this months guitarist where some bloke mentions how the "SE" logo on the SE range is hugely demeaning to those on a tighter budget. He then goes on to complain about how the backplate on the S2 is non recessed, and other bits and pieces, basically why it isn't exactly the same as a "full fat" PRS but cheaper.
eh?
Whats with the sense of entitlement virtually everyone has these days? I get that budgets are tight at the moment, and not everyone can afford a full fat PRS, but if you don't like the SE logo then don't buy one. They're fine guitars, but they're aimed at a certain price point and no company is going to smoke and mirror a budget range so it's indistinguishable from the high end range.
I don't get annoyed because the 370Z, which is seen as somewhat of a little brother to the Nissan GTR and is a little more in my price range (actually it's not, but it's much more realistic), doesn't have a GTR logo on it and doesn't have the performance of a GTR for a fraction of the price. Do i feel demeaned and insulted by Nissan for not making the GTR available to me personally for much less money? No, because what it costs is what it costs and i can't afford that so tough. In fact I'm rather glad there's a 370Z which in a few years will be a bargain second hand and will give a considerable performance to quid ratio.
Course if how the guitar performs matters less than whats on the headstock, thats a whole other kettle of fish.
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I don't get why the mags are all loving the S2 range - not one of them has commented that you can get a new/nearly new full-on USA PRS for the same money. Not their usual stance when it comes to PRS.
Even the US guys, that I thought would love a USA S2s over a Korean SE, are not impressed with them. That speaks volumes.
PRS have gone one step too far in my eyes and are trying to create demand where there isn't any - that's a poor strategy. I think they've gotten too big as a company to remain profitable, and the large expansion of the factory a few years back was a big mistake.
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I don't get why the mags are all loving the S2 range - not one of them has commented that you can get a new/nearly new full-on USA PRS for the same money. Not their usual stance when it comes to PRS.
To be fair i haven't seen any reviews yet, but i agree with the weirdness in them not pointing out the actually street price difference. Maybe it's something to do with PRS's power as a manufacturer now? are they getting to Gibson and Fender levels? They are a household name in the guitar world these days, even 15 years ago that wasn't the case. Maybe they're starting to throw their weight around in terms of advertising revenues? "good words please or we don't advertise with your mag" perhaps?
I also agree with them trying to create demand where there isn't really any, a fact born out by the street prices you've demonstrated. So you can have a brand new Custom 24 cheaper or in the same price bracket as Fender or Gibsons highend stuff? that definitely wasn't the case a bunch of years ago. PRS money was Fender CS money.
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Those Cu24s are a real steal as RRP is about Ģ1000 more, so I can't see them hanging around long at that price.
I predict S2s will be discounted to around Ģ850 in order to shift them, mark my words...
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Also agreed.
I will NEVER understand why the CE range was discontinued.. I don't think anyone is under any illusions that anything that PRS has attempted to replace it with since just hasn't been as good.
was it because it was a bolt on? I mean that was the whole point of it right? it wasn't a budget range per se, it was a bolt on range, that just made it cheaper as a benefit. but you got a US made PRS, with US hardware, made in the same plant, by the same people as the CU's for less money.
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I don't get why the mags are all loving the S2 range - not one of them has commented that you can get a new/nearly new full-on USA PRS for the same money. Not their usual stance when it comes to PRS.
Even the US guys, that I thought would love a USA S2s over a Korean SE, are not impressed with them. That speaks volumes.
PRS have gone one step too far in my eyes and are trying to create demand where there isn't any - that's a poor strategy. I think they've gotten too big as a company to remain profitable, and the large expansion of the factory a few years back was a big mistake.
The only reviews I've seen so far are in Guitarist, don't know yet what the US mags have said. I read a little on other forums, the comments weren't wholly negative but people do seem to have a lot of reservations.
It'll be interesting to see what happens. As we know, the "X" series guitars flopped and they didn't have the multi-piece necks or import pickups of the S2 series. Maybe the S2 series is doomed to fail as well.
However.... I'm still interested in the S2 Mira. :lol:
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Total Guitar gave an S2 (Starla?) recently a 5* review.
tekbow - the CE was discontinued because it cost almost as much as a CU to make. PRS made very little money off each one they sold.
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^ Ah I suppose. I'd also agree that it sucks they were discontinued, but if they weren't making anything on them...
With those kind of prices (granted its been reduced but just proves deals are there to be the had for those who look) on a full fat 24, it's really a no brainer. especially comparing US hardware to the Offshore hardware that seems to be in use on the S2..
Yeah I think that's the thing. If you compare RRPs, then the S2s might seem to be a good deal. If you compare the prices that you'll actually end up paying if you have any sense at all (i.e. you have the wit to shop around), then not so much.
It's not just PRS who is guilty of this, though, to be fair- I frequently see people saying, "Such-and-such a guitar is a good deal, its RRP is whatever and better guitars' RRPs are way higher", but that's not really the point. It doesn't much matter what the RRP is if I can walk into a guitar shop (or order online) and buy the supposedly-much-dearer/better guitar for far less!
I'm with you and Dave in other words. I'm not really in any danger of buying a PRS, but if I were, I'd be looking at those custom 24s for only slightly more (comparatively) than the S2s. I remember at one point that X series was being blown out for like Ģ550 once it became apparent they weren't selling. I chickened out then, but if I did, I'm hardly gonna pay Ģ1250 for an S2, lol.
I'm also not overly suprised by the magazine reviews, for as long as I've been reading them most of them have been little more than glorified adverts. I know guitarist refused to mention japanese tokais (and similar japanese copies) when they reviewed gibsons, for example. Thinking they have our best interests at heart is possibly a little naive...
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Well, as an avid PRS fan my position is quite simple and it does relate a lot to real world prices. I love my SE Custom 24 guitars and for the money, I just don't think you can beat them. A couple of well chosen upgrades and you have a monumental guitar for relatively little. I'd LOVE a full American PRS but the price is out of my league and do you know what? I lose no sleep at all over the matter. I agree with tekbow that it's just one of those things and my sense of 'entitlement' runs to more important issues than which piece of wood I'm going to pluck metal strings on! As for the S2 models, at Ģ1250 it's just not worth two SE models so I'll stick with what I've got but at the Ģ850 that Twinfan mentioned I might be tempted or a pristine used one for about Ģ650.
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This will be really interesting in a few years when these hit the 2nd hand market for around 500.
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This will be really interesting in a few years when these hit the 2nd hand market for around 500.
Being sold by idiots like me! :lol:
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This will be really interesting in a few years when these hit the 2nd hand market for around 500.
Being sold by idiots like me! :lol:
Yes ... I guess :)
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This will be really interesting in a few years when these hit the 2nd hand market for around 500.
Being sold by idiots like me! :lol:
:lol: