Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: bepcepkop on August 05, 2013, 06:18:00 AM
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Hi there, new member here, I have an Ibanez S550 on the way and have been searching all over for what pickups to upgrade to and have finaly come to the conlusion I would be wise to try out some Bare Knuckles for the first time.
The guitar has mahogany body, maple neck, rosewood fretboard, S series (sabre) and HSH config. The amp setup is just an 11Rack but soon I will be pairing it with a Laney Ironheart Studio.
Mainly I will be playing and recording power metal and some other experimental stuff, but the sound and style I am going for is bands like late 90s era Stratovarius, Gamma Ray, Insania Stockholm, early Sonata Arctica, Wizard and I absolutely love the tone on Wintersuns first album, I know he used a stock Tokai tele and a Dinky through a Triaxis
But you get the picture, I am after a tone that is really tight for fast palm muted riffing, not really too modern sounding or death metally ( but perhaps could be capable if I crank everything), really clear and sharp with no mud. and capable of good cleaner tones for proggy stuff with effects.
From the clips Ive heard and what people hve said the Holydiver seems to be the logical choice
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painkiller
maybe a rebel yell if you want more versatility
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Just incase some of you aren't familiar with the sound of those bands the kind of sound I am after here are some clips... Also I will need a middle PU that can work well with the bridge and neck in 2 and 4 position on a 5 way switch and add some versatility by itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzvY77AmLtw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzvY77AmLtw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r81qJg_Ss9I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r81qJg_Ss9I)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIm4yfhlKUQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIm4yfhlKUQ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q90um2ZGQDk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q90um2ZGQDk)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc4WFzl-6Xs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc4WFzl-6Xs)
hope they all work ! Thanks.
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The Rebel Yell did sound quite nice but seemed like it may lack a little balls compared to something like the Holydiver, Cold Sweat or Nailbomb... maybe the Emerald or VH II...
Just not sure :/
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all those songs sounded more like a painkiller job
the holy diver isn't that dry
the cold sweat could work quite well, but sounds a little bassier on rhythms and more scooped on leads
the nailbomb is a bit darker voiced and quite meaty... could work with a boss sd-1 or something similar
the rebel yell has all the voicing character needed, just isn't as hot as the others (still close enough to the holy diver)
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Thanks for the advice, I completely overlooked the painkiller when I read it was for djent/downtuned style, but I guess that would keep things tight.
The Rebel Yell does sound from the clip very much like what I might need. Going from the stock INF PUs to BKPs is going to be a huge improvement no matter which ones I pick really.
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But you get the picture, I am after a tone that is really tight for fast palm muted riffing, not really too modern sounding or death metally ( but perhaps could be capable if I crank everything), really clear and sharp with no mud. and capable of good cleaner tones for proggy stuff with effects.
From the clips Ive heard and what people hve said the Holydiver seems to be the logical choice
While the Holy Diver would work, I would give it the edge over the Nailbomb if you were looking for more 80s style metal sounds. I think the Nailbomb is a more suited choice. Alnico, it is already very tight and your amp is perfect for it. For me the Nailbomb is the most progressive metal-pickup I've played so far; it has that very chunky Petrucci-style midrange thump, tight bottom and a clear and articulate top end. It still sounds organic and not over the top as some ceramic pickups do.
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While the Holydiver is my favourite pickup, my first thought for you was an A-Bomb in the bridge. It's very tight and very aggressive. If you'd like it toned down a bit, go for a Rebel Yell.
For the neck, try a Cold Sweat if you put an A-Bomb in the bridge or a Rebel Yell if you also use a RY in the bridge. Either way, try a Trilogy Suite in the middle.
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Once again, thanks for the replies ! :lol:
I am not so good at explaining the sound I am after, I guess the tone of 80's speed/power like Helloween and Gamma Ray but with the tightness and clarity of the more modern sound, but that also comes down to my recording and mixing skills too.
My impression of the Holydiver is that if you ran it through a high gain setup you would get a saturated metal tone but if rolled back on the pot and amp it would become more 80s, tighter and be somewhere in the middle of where I want to be.. and also clean up real nice?
I imagine the Painkiller to be purely a modern metal sound as well as the Nailbomb to a lesser extent more suited to death and thrash?
and the Cold Sweat and to a lesser extent, Rebel Yell perhaps too bright for the Ibanez S shape being so thin even though its mahogany, or perhaps the thinness doesnt matter so much that they would be suited for the mahogany body?
Sorry if I am not making so much sense :?
It's great to have so many good choices but also frustrating at the same time !
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I should also mention that the Ibanez S is replacing a Schecter Blackjack with active blackouts that are totally not for me, good for death metal, etc, but really not the sound I need for power metal, too much overkill and dark.
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the painkiller was modeled after the judas priest's album tones
it just happens to work great for more modern stuff as well
most of the pickups used these days in modern metal are the same the hard rock and metal guys already used back in the 80's and 90's, so there's no suprise in that (I'm talking pickups like the duncan jb, distortion, custom, invader, dimarzio x2n, super distortion, emg 81)
I think you can benefit from the tighter and middier tones of the painkiller or rebel yell better than the deeper and darker tone of the nailbomb, but the nailbomb should work anyway
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Yeah when researching I have actually been surprised at some of the pickups used on recordings these days actually be 20 or so years old, showing that alot of the modern day sound comes from production.
I am also thinking to the future and considering a ESP/LTD Elite-1 with Alder body and Maple neck/fretboard which would solely be for progressive/experimental uses. So if I got a Holy Diver and thought it too dark, i could just swap into the Elite and grab a couple of single coils. I have read many people saying that the thin characteristic of the S series Ibanez overbears the fact it is mahogany making it sound rather thinner/brighter for a mahogany guitar which is why I am just not sure what to go with.
I don't want it to sound extremely bright but if I get a darker pickup to compensate for the body I don't want to go too far.. :shock:
I really like the idea of the Holydiver in the neck position though or perhaps the Emerald.. I do like thicker deeper leads. but for the bridge I am stuck between the RY, NB and PK...
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Of all the clips I have listened to I seem to prefer the Nailbomb to the Painkiller for rhythm, The RY as you stated has the correct voicing for what I am after but is it as tight for fast palm muted riffing?
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If you haven't read the review collection thread I'd suggest going there and reading the reviews for the Rebel Yell. There are four reviews - some of them comparison reviews - and all give great descriptions and will really make your mouth water for some RYs.
https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=30219.0
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Of all the clips I have listened to I seem to prefer the Nailbomb to the Painkiller for rhythm, The RY as you stated has the correct voicing for what I am after but is it as tight for fast palm muted riffing?
The RY sure is pretty darn tight. I am still blown away how tight it is for an alnico pub. Give a quick listen to Red Seas Fire, the band of forum member and moderator Nolly (who also played all the BKP demos), that is the RY bridge he playes there.
The RY generally I very versatile, you can imho easily go from blues rock to modern metal and everything in between. The sound is modern, but there is always a nice vintage throwback in there, so you really feel at home. The sound is full of harmonics and there is a nice upper mid spike making it scream and rock the sh*t outa anything. That spike together with the cutting prominent, but not shrill, high end makes for a lot of cut.
The bottom end is tight and present, not lacking, but just not really big or anything. The PU does not sound thin to me. Generally it just rocks and screams like no other I have had.
Also it is very tunable as height changes really do a number on this PU especially. Half a screw turn felt like it too my bass response from something I would like for pop punk to something I would like for metal. Factor in to that that you can also change the pole piece height and you got a lot of options to perfect your tone if you got a RY and like the basic idea it brings.
Oh and yeah, I got mine in a Ibby S series. My other axes have a Stockholm bridge and a Crawler bridge, both have a big and deep bottom end. The RY naturally sounds the brightest out of the 3, but not thin and to be fair I also like it to be that bright and agressive, I could have easily set it to be more in line with the others. Side by side you feel a lot more agression and just rock screaming out of it, where as the other two do more roaring.
Damn I really gotta get around to writing my RY review, I have written these kind of 3/4 reviews too often...
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The Rebel Yell always sounds like a really good set. I don't think I've read a negative or even half-hearted review of it yet, such that every time I read one I think 'why didn't I get that instead of the CS/NB combo for my SG' just because it sounds like a CS/NB combo that has had the rough edges ironed out and stewed in a pot for a day like a good curry to blend the flavours together
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Okay thanks, wow, that tone is incredible, a world away from power metal altho I can hear the potential for some awesome power tones. and thanks for the review page, I have a lot of reading to do..
It's also interesting that you have it in the Ibanez S model so that puts my worries to rest about it's brightness, I do generally prefer power tones that are bright though.
say for the lead on the Arrayan Path song at the start, would you reccomend a HD, Emerald or also the RY in the neck?
Thanks once again.
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Scrub what I said earlier. Having heard more from you, I now think I have a better idea of what you're after, which seems to be essentially 80's Metal but with enough tightness to cope with more gain. This is essentially what my basic sound is.
Bridge - get the Holydiver. Warm, rich, smooth and organic with enough tightness to do more modern tones too. Loves an overdrive. Won't be too dark in you 'S' series at all and will love alder too if you eventually use it there. Best pickup BKP make. You'll love it.
Neck - at the moment I'll say Emerald. As a neck pickup it's absolutely peerless in my experience and goes well with a Holydiver bridge. However, I should have a Holydiver neck arriving tomorrow so give me a few days and I'll have a review posted for it.
Middle - Trilogy Suite. Perfect for you.
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Yeah, as I said I am not so good at describing the sound I am after, My ears will give me the verdict when I pop 'em in and hear 'em...
Because of the Sabre series shape that is why I originally thought of the Holy Diver when I listened to each of the tracks, From the clips I've heard the PK and NB sound tight enough just not the right tone. The Rebel Yell seems to me a more suited version of the CS for what I want, and seems to be tight and articulate enough.
So I was thinking a Rebel Yell set and Sinner middle would make for an interesting combo of sounds on a 5 way switch considering the EQ curve of RY and Sinner.
Or
Holy Diver set with trilogy middle.
On the audio clips for the Hair Metal clip the RY and HD are the clips I like the most... I think I will have to wait until I get the Laney Ironheart and play the guitar for a bit and then make a decision then.
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I tend to think that the Sinner might be too hot with the RYs. Probably better off going with the Trilogy in the middle with that set. The Sinner is a good match for the Miracle Man set.
You should talk to Tim or Ben at BKP about it.
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Would lowering it fix that issue? Or should I say that half my reasoning for picking it was that is was high output and I would like to keep the middle pickup fairly low for my picking style? The other half reason I thought it would be good is versatillity.
Altho Narrowing my middle PU choice down to just the one... Trilogy would be good. :P
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Depending on how dark your S is, an EMERALD set is a good choice too. Very bright open, with a full tight bass in the bridge, and a very clean yet fluid neck... Emerald neck is the best neck PUP ever made IMO.
I'd think twice about the trilogy suit as they are a bit dark... Of course, again it depends on how dark your guitar is. If it's not too dark and you're not going to use a dark set of amp/speakers, than I'd get the Holydiver.
For a middle pup I like the Slow Hands.... not too bright, not too dark (actually they are more in the mid region, what is curious for a single coil). I'd say the highs are smooth but still present.
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There's a few things I'd like to say regarding your situation.
The Guitar. The 'S' series is so thin that the mahogany has far less impact on the tone than it would on most guitars, You could even say the same thing about those Wizard necks and coupled with that, you have a locking trem so the chances are, your guitar isn't dark at all. It's probably relatively bright and certainly won't be any darker than 'neutral'. I use PRS SE Custom 24 guitars now, which use more mahogany than yours so almost certainly won't be any brighter. In the past I've also used a Jackson Soloist and Ibanez RG so I'm fairly sure that what I suggest will work.
Let's start with the middle pickup. The Sinner is quite a bit darker than a Trilogy Suite and also the least like a traditional single coil. In some ways it's almost like a humbucker it's so thick so a Sinner certainly won't offer more versatility than a Trilogy Suite - quite tyhe opposite in fact. The Trilogy Suite will give you some great, fluid single coil tones that will work perfectly with your humbuckers and offers enough power to sit well in the middle. If in doubt, buy a bridge Trilogy Suite for the middle instead of the usual neck version. The Slowhand is one of my favourite BKP single coils but as, like me, you lower the middle pickup quite a bit, it will struggle to keep up with a hot bridge humbucker. I remember Antag told me that he tried Slowhands with his Holydiver and felt they weren't quite hot enough. Honestly, the Trilogy Suite is perfect.
Emerald bridge - Too bright. It was way too bright in my PRS so will almost certainly be very bright in your Ibanez.
Painkiller bridge. Again, I think you'll find it too bright. Many people describe it as 'ice-picky' in the highs and an 'S' series will certainly not tame that. On top of that, it simply isn't the tone you want.
Nailbomb bridge - Sure it's tight, but that's only a small part of what you want. When I tried one in my Jackson (maple neck-thru) it was brutal and tight beyond belief. VERY 90's Thrash Metal and the Jackson simply couldn't tame the aggression that was overpowering. It worked a bit better in the PRS but it was still very aggressive so I can't see your Ibanez taming that aggression and that would be fine if it was what you were after but it isn't. As you say, the tone is wrong.
Cold Sweat bridge - Could work well but it would be a bit bright. It's a bit tighter and more open sounding than the Holydiver. Close but not quite what you're decribing.
Rebel Yell bridge - Yes, it has some things in common with both the Cold Sweat and Nailbomb as they're all using the same wire, though the Cold Sweat is ceramic. A bit more of a Rock pickup than a Metal pickup.
Holydiver bridge - Same wire as the Painkiller but the alnico V magnet makes it a lot smoother and more organic. It will thicken up either your 'S' series or an alder guitar beautifully while having all the tightness you need. Massively versatile. Easily my favourite BKP pickup as I can use it for anything from Free to Metallica. Honestly, it's perfect for you. It's just what you say you want.
Neck pickups. The Holydiver, Rebel Yell and Cold Sweat neck models are very similar. The Holydiver is the brightest, the Cold Sweat is the darkest and the Rebel Yell sits between the two. Other than that, they're very similar indeed. The Emerald neck is slightly different because of the AIV magnet and slightly different wire. It's a bit darker than all except possibly the Cold Sweat and is sweeter than any of them by all accounts. The Cold Sweat is a great shredding pickup while the Emerald is like a hot and modern PAF. I've not tried the Rebel Yell neck but BKP tell me it's simply a slightly brighter Cold Sweat. I'll tell you about the Holydiver neck soon. :D
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Amen brother. Slarti strikes again!
I can basecally agree with all he said.
For the bridge I would put it between the RY and HD. I have however not tried the HD (big on my list though), however I trust Slartis judgment on this one. If you donīt really wanne go for bright and agressive get the HD. It will work wonderfully I recon and is certainly the saver bet of the two.
BKPs are always a bit brighter and clearer than other PUs due to the scatter winding and maybe the RY is too much for starters, hard to tell how you actually like it.
When going for the HD bridge the Emerald neck is the favorite (and generally has become the favorite neck PU around here, which when I arrived were the CS and the HD neck if I recall). For what makes powermetal tones for me it certainly sounds like it will be very very good.
I myself want to get the HD EM combo, just dunno where I can put it. Maybe my Dean 7 string, but I need that one to be able to do my Dream Theater stuff nicely too and I am not sure on that count yet. Sides that the HD EM combo sounds perfect.
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Thanks for all that really helpful info, as of now I plan to go with the Holy Diver set with Trilogy Suite middle. I will look out for when you get the HD neck !
The sound clip of the Blackdog sounds awesome, thick and tight and clean, no fizz and cuts through, how does the BD match up against the HD?
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A Comparison of the RY and HD side by side would be good, know if anyone has done one?
*The Black Dog apprears to be a lesser output Holy Diver with the EQ curve being the same just the Black Dogs bars for treble mid and bass being a little higher.
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I can't help thinking that, rather like me, you're ending up rather over-thinking the problem. You started out by suggesting that the Holydiver would be a good choice and having learnt more about what you're after, we generally agree that it would be an excellent choice. Of course, I well understand the need to get it right so let's see what we can do to give you a bit more information about the choices you mention.
In one sense, you could argue that the Black Dog, Rebel Yell and Holydiver are all very similar. They all use alnico V magnets and the EQ for each of them is very close. For each of them, the bass is either 5 or 6, the mids are either 7 or 8 and the highs are either 6 or 7. On the face of it, the DC resistance figures suggest that the Holydiver is the hottest and the Black Dog is the most vintage and this would appear to be supported by the fact that the Black Dog is in the 'Vintage Hot' section. All well and good so far and none of this is wrong but the devil is in the detail and that's where they start to become very different beasts. We have no way of knowing if BKP have done anything to any of the AV magnets to affect their tonality and we don't know exactly what they do with the wind but we do know one important difference and this is happily where I can draw on my recent research into the wire used by BKP because I've only recently discovered just how important this is :D
The Black Dog uses 42.5 polysol wire, the Rebel Yell uses 43 AWG plain enamel wire and the Holydiver uses 44 polysol. These different wire gauges and types means that the DC resistance is not going to be an accurate indication of just how hot each pickup is in relation to each other. The probably do run in the same order already indicated but the differences in output may well be closer than you think. Now surprisingly, it is the Rebel Yell that uses the most vintage wire (though it's still quite modern) and this use of 43 AWG plain enamel puts it into the family of the Cold Sweat, Crawler and Nailbomb. This isn't really surprising as the Rebel Yell is often referred to as an underwound Nailbomb and it is generally known that Steve Stevens liked both the Cold Sweat and the Nailbomb so it's hardly a major shock that the Rebel Yell sits between the two of them. The result is that the Rebel Yell will share some characteristics with both of them. It will be modern enough and tight enough for Metal but also carry more of a 'hot PAF' vibe about it, making it also good for Classic Rock. It will also have a bit of a 'growl' to it and some real aggression as these are also characteristics of the other pickups in the family.
Polysol wire tends to give a more distinctly modern tone than plain enamel and broadly speaking, the bigger the number, the modern it will sound. This helps to give the Black Dog some real cut, which is why it's popular with Metal players but the light asymmetric wind is far more vintage so unlike many modern pickups, it's actually quite open and uncompressed. In many ways you could also describe the Black Dog as a 'hot PAF' so in that respect it's a different approach to the same problem as the Rebel Yell. The Rebel Yell uses slightly more vintage wire on a hotter and more modern wind while the Black Dog uses more modern wire on a more vintage wind. A bit like the Rebel Yell, it is good for Metal but also has a very good Classic Rock voice.
The Holydiver is certainly the most modern sounding pickup of the trio, having the most modern wire on a fairly hot modern wind. Not entirely surprisingly, this is the most obviously 'Metal' pickup of the three. The Black Dog may have more bass in its EQ but the Holydiver has more lower mids to go with it, which is why it tends to give a thick sound. The Black Dog seems to me to have more middy mids and the Rebel Yell has a few more upper mids, which is why people often refer to it as being bright. The Holydiver uses 44 polysol wire just the same as the Painkiller but crucially, the Holydiver uses an alnico V magnet instead of three ceramics and this is what helps to give it those lovely smooth and organic qualities we all know and love. It's this that makes the Holydiver also rather versatile, like many Bare Knuckle pickups. I like it because to me, it sits just where I need it to. Its natural home is 80's Metal due to its smooth delivery of the distortion (think Doug Aldrich and Jake E. Lee) but give it the overdrive that it loves and it will take you into far more modern styles and back off the gain and you're into some genuine Classic Rock territory while all the time retaining its smoothness and sweetness.
All three will do a good job for you but I do think you'll particularly like the Holydiver. It really is awesome :D
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Wow, thanks for the massive input there, some of this goes over my head because I have never looked into how pickups are made but it is good to learn a bit about the technical side to understand how the differences effect sound.
To me it sounds like all three would do power metal really well, they all seem versatile enough for death/prog etc too... Like you said I would like to get it right which is why I really appreciate the good advice but I must start somewhere!
When my Schecter sells I will be making an order for the HD set and Trilogy Suite middle, going from the stock Infinity PUs to any BKPs will be great.
I find the Power metal I like from the 90s or more recent all still deliberately go for a very 80s sound, just tighter. And If I can get a more modern sound as well I would probly use it also.
I'm sure I would like many of the qualities of the RY and BD as well, but for the Sabre shape and versatility I am after, (It is going to be a power metal guitar because that's what I want to record, but I would like to jam some Wintersun or Kalmah type stuff to more proggy like Opeth type stuff) I think I will start my Bare Knuckle journey with the Holy Divers!
I will look out for your views on the HD neck though !
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I find the Power metal I like from the 90s or more recent all still deliberately go for a very 80s sound, just tighter. And If I can get a more modern sound as well I would probly use it also.
You're 100% describing a Holydiver here. I have no doubt it's the one for you. I won't get the Holydiver neck installed until Friday evening and I'm on holiday for a week from Saturday so give me a couple of weeks and I'll have a detailed review posted.
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:shock: Sounds good ! I still have to sell my schecter before I order the pickups to keep the missus happy :P
Many thanks once again for the help!