Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Cam_H on August 24, 2013, 03:25:57 PM
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Hi all.
Shortly I'm going to start looking round for a couple guitars which will be my first expensive guitar I've owned. In the past, most of my guitars have been up to the £500 mark.
What I wanted to ask was, what can I expect from a more expensive guitar? I have all my guitars set up anyways so the stock set-up in terms of playability isn't really an issue here.
One guitar I've been looking at is the ESP Eclipse Full Thickness. Is this guitar really worth double the price of an LTD EC-1000?
Another things which I'm curious about is - when I'm in a guitar shop playing the more expensive guitar, what are the top things I should be looking for when I pick up the guitar? It may sound noobish, but I honestly don't know when I pick up an expensive guitar, what I should be looking for straight away? If I was to pick up an Epiphone Les Paul Custom and a Gibson Les Paul Custom, what would you say I'd notice in terms of difference? And would these differences be worth the extra £1.5k?
Bit random, but I'm just trying to broaden my scope into what a good guitar should consist of.
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In general you could say better woods (in case of LP real maple top, no veneer), better materials like pots, nut and tuners, better playability/fretdress, better craftmanship. But, you have to feel and play a more expensive guitar and compare it to the a more affordable one. Then you can decide if the 'expensive' guitar is worth the extra money.
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A lot of Epiphones I've seen recently have had awful white marks on the fretboards - the rosewood they use sometimes looks like it was taken from a briny swamp - and the frets are poorly finished. Same with the cheap end of the LTDs (the 50s & 100s, not the 1000s you mention).
The camo finish ESP Vipers have a very nice satin feel on the back of the neck, that I did notice.
Tokai make a vintage series SG that is selling for the same price as the Gibson SG Standard and quite a few people say its better, so made in Japan and made in USA are about the same. I'm not too pleased with the price of the ESPs though, I think they are overpriced. If the ESP Viper was the same price that I got my Gibson SG Standard for I would have seriously considered it. I don't like EMGs much but I ended up swapping out the brand new 490/498 set and wiring harness in my Gibson anyway
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Say, if an Epiphone Les Paul Custom cost £500, plus a full set up (£70 which includes fret dressing,) and hardware upgrade (pots, pickups, bridge, etc) totalling £1000. Would a Gibson Les Paul Custom still be worth that £1k+?
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But, you have to feel and play a more expensive guitar and compare it to the a more affordable one. Then you can decide if the 'expensive' guitar is worth the extra money.
This +1
It depends on what you're looking for in a guitar. If you're buying an expensive guitar just for the sake of buying an expensive guitar, then you don't need / won't feel the benefit of spending all that money.
Like Tele says, generally things like the kind of wood the guitar is made out of, the quality of the hardware etc will have the majority of influence on the price. A Swamp Ash guitar will, generally, be much more expensive than something like a Bronze Series B.C Rich because Bronze series are made from plywood. Also, a one-piece Ash guitar will generally be more expensive than a two or three piece version.
If you want to spend a lot of money on a Guitar, then I would highly recommend going custom, as that way you can have everything perfectly to the exact spec you want and you won't have to compromise on any of it at all. The only limit is how much you want to spend.
My opinion: don't buy anything unless you actually need it. If you feel that you'll get more of the tone you're after with a guitar made of a certain tone-wood and none of your existing axes are going to cut it, then yes, buy a new guitar, but certainly don't "aim" to spend a lot of money unless it's going to be something you can seriously justify.
Anyone who spends a lot of money on a guitar just so they can say they own a PRS or whatever, they are doing everything for entirely the wrong reason.
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I just read on a lot of forums that the wood quality on certain guitars in the £1k+ range out do cheaper guitars. I am happy with my cheaper guitars, but I'm interested in taking it to the next level. I may buy an expensive guitar and over time realise how much better it is. But I just wanted to be prepared for it.
You bring an interesting point with the 2/3 piece guitars. How would you say they compare to a guitar body built from only 1 piece?
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You bring an interesting point with the 2/3 piece guitars. How would you say they compare to a guitar body built from only 1 piece?
That depends on the quality of the wood. A onepiece body is not a guarantee to sound better then a twopiece.
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Say, if an Epiphone Les Paul Custom cost £500, plus a full set up (£70 which includes fret dressing,) and hardware upgrade (pots, pickups, bridge, etc) totalling £1000. Would a Gibson Les Paul Custom still be worth that £1k+?
Personally I would start with the Chinese made 'Traditional Series' Tokai rather than the Chinese made Epiphone. I've compared them side by side and the Tokai is far superior. The Epiphone sells for around $450 here at the moment, the Tokai around $650. See this page
http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Electric-Guitars/Tokai-Les-Pauls-differences-between-Japanese-and-Chinese/td-p/11055948 (http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Electric-Guitars/Tokai-Les-Pauls-differences-between-Japanese-and-Chinese/td-p/11055948)
They mention the Japanese-made Grecos there too. A friend of mine collects them and they are very nice instruments. He has a couple of Greco SGs and a Greco Flying V (with Lace pickups)
I think you could get by with the BKP pickup and vintage harness upgrade I made for my Gibson Standard, maybe add Grover tuners if you don't like the ones it comes with and have a decent guitar for under £1000. From the look of the fretboard the Tokai was much better than the Epiphone, so you probably wouldn't have to bother.
I have a Korean made Epiphone from 2006 but I wouldn't touch the newer ones.
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Again, what Tele said. There is a huge amount of factors to consider when looking at guitars, and don't forget that some things cost a lot more money just because they have a big brand name on them. For instance, I tried out an Epiphone Explorer that cost £350, then tried a Gibson Explorer that cost £1500. I MUCH preferred the sound of the Epiphone, it kicked the Gibson's arse, massively.
Basically all you need to do is take a day off, grab one of your guitars, and go to your local guitar store. Spend a lot of time switching between your guitar and trying a lot of stuff out in the store, and then if you want to buy something that feels and sounds better than yours, go for it.
I have to say, though, you seem to be going about it in a fairly backwards kind of way when you say something like this:
"I may buy an expensive guitar and over time realise how much better it is. But I just wanted to be prepared for it. "
I personally think this is completely the wrong reason to be buying anything. You could do that, then spend a lot of time trying to get used to it and then find out that it's not actually for you at all. To me, if a guitar doesn't immediately give you that tingle or improvement in tone or feel in the store that you've been looking for, then you should put it back on the hanger and move on to the next guitar. Never buy something and then "get used to it" or realise over time how much better it is, because if it is better, it should be immediately obvious. And if it is immediately obvious, and it's giving the results you really want, then it might be worth investing in. Parting with that amount of money for something that "may or may not" be better is way too much of a risk and largely a foolish thing to do.
I would seriously save your money mate, find out what it is you are looking for, not what other people say you should be looking for. If you're looking for a faster neck, a different tone, a different scale length, just something your current guitars don't do for you, then by all means listen to other people's opinions, but when all is said and done, it's you that has to live with whatever it is you buy, so it has to feel and sound right to your personal taste. Just go try loads of stuff out so you can build your own personal opinion of the things you like about them, then decide whether or not it's worth grabbing a new toy. :wink:
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When I got my Tele Thinline a few months ago, the LAST thing I looked at was price and where it was made.
I went to a reputable dealer who has great setups and quality amps, picked the 3-4 Teles I liked the look of, and played around until there was a clear winner.
The entire process took about an hour. The price was good (around 1k), the country of manufacture slightly surprising (Mexico), and I walked out with a Keeper.
Debating the pros and coins on a forum is a waste of time.
Turn off the computer, hit the shops, and make sure to bring a friend along to enjoy a celebratory pint with after your purchase. :)
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Great advice. Cheers.
The main thing which had me scepticle was the Andy Timmons story. The Ibanez AT100 neck was based upon a cr@ppy neck he became very accustomed to, but he said that if Ibanez was to make a custom for him, no expense was to be spared on the material. That ending up in a £2k+ guitar. And its only basic wood as well. The neck one piece maple, etc. Nothing fancy. I was just sure there's something in a good quality guitar that I'm missing. But I guess I'll find that out when the time is ready.
Again, thanks for the advice :)
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A lot of high-end Fender necks are one-piece Maple. ;)
Again, it all depends on the quality of the material, it was probably Uber-Grade Maple or something, heh.
It's all in the tiny, minute details. Quality of build, quality of base materials, if the pups are hand-wound etc. Get comparing low end stuff with high-end stuff and really focus on seeing how things line-up between the two, the quality of the finishes etc and get a true appreciation for a masterpiece bit of kit, then you'll be able to spot quality a mile away later on. :)
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A lot of high-end Fender necks are one-piece Maple. ;)
Again, it all depends on the quality of the material, it was probably Uber-Grade Maple or something, heh.
It's all in the tiny, minute details. Quality of build, quality of base materials, if the pups are hand-wound etc. Get comparing low end stuff with high-end stuff and really focus on seeing how things line-up between the two, the quality of the finishes etc and get a true appreciation for a masterpiece bit of kit, then you'll be able to spot quality a mile away later on. :)
I agree. The neck on my sunburst Fender Am. Series Tele is one piece. Fretboard edges are rolled, great twopiece straightgrained alder body and rosewood board, superb fretdress. Tuningstabiity and playability is topnotch. Gerat sustain too. You don't find that quality and feel on a Classic Vibe, that for the price is a well put together guitar that sounds quite mature. If money is an issue I wouid buy a CV and upgrade it a bit and BKP it. Then you got a decent stageguitar. If you can afford a USA Fender, try a bunch and pick the best one (as I did). Serves me for 13 years now with no problems.
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To me, if a guitar doesn't immediately give you that tingle or improvement in tone or feel in the store that you've been looking for, then you should put it back on the hanger and move on to the next guitar.
I agree. What I hate though is when you've blown all your cash on what you think is your dream guitar, then you go in the shop a week later and pickup one that you like better. I had this 'tingle' when I first picked up an SG Classic, but I had already bought an SG Standard! Still I got the horrid neck pickup tone out of that guitar (it had a 490R) by installing a BKP Cold Sweat. The P90s in the Classic though are wonderful, although maybe not something I could use for everything. Unless you want to be gassing all the time and collecting a huge pile of guitars (and going broke) often you have to settle for a workhorse that you can tizzy up a bit with a few mods (e.g., coil splits etc) to make it do all the things you want
I'd say the most important things are the basic tone of the guitar, balance, the number of controls (I hate those guitars with a master tone and volume for two HBs) and most importantly the feel of the neck. You can upgrade tuners and bridges later if you need to, but make sure that the basic design of all the hardware is what you want. For example, don't buy a guitar that you will later have to route for different size pickups or a different bridge.
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The neck is for me a major point in the selectionproces. The right thickness, frets and radius, good playability and feel. Another thing is that the guitar must have vibe, ergo a ringing/singing quality. But when I don't get on with the neck, I'm out.
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I think the expensive guitars just feel better, the feel of the neck, and how low the action can go, how well it stays in tune what materials are used for the nut, saddle and the hardware. The way is sounds is obviously most important though, expensive guitars usually sound a lot better but not always.
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don't buy the more expensive guitar or the more affordable one. don't buy the one that the salesman pushes you.
Buy the one that sounds the best to your ears and plays the best to you.
Does knowing about a feature you didn't know about before suddenly make a given guitar sound better?
The way is sounds is obviously most important though, expensive guitars usually sound a lot better but not always.
Not being awkward, but empirically quantify "a lot". It's so subjective that no one can. yes there are definite "bad" aspects of a sound, but you can't, for example say "this guitar is 30% more resonant than that cheaper one, where anything above 25% is considered a significant increase in resonant capability".
I own a £2500 PRS, an £1800 Musicman Axis, a £1300 telecaster, and the guitar i play 70% of the time and have the most fun with is a £650 MIJ strat. does that mean that the others are worse? no, does it mean they don't sound or play good? no. doesw it mean i should sell them and forget about them? nope. it just means that when i pick up that strat, something about it clicks the most.
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don't buy the more expensive guitar or the more affordable one. don't buy the one that the salesman pushes you.
Buy the one that sounds the best to your ears and plays the best to you.
Does knowing about a feature you didn't know about before suddenly make a given guitar sound better?
The way is sounds is obviously most important though, expensive guitars usually sound a lot better but not always.
Not being awkward, but empirically quantify "a lot". It's so subjective that no one can. yes there are definite "bad" aspects of a sound, but you can't, for example say "this guitar is 30% more resonant than that cheaper one, where anything above 25% is considered a significant increase in resonant capability".
I own a £2500 PRS, an £1800 Musicman Axis, a £1300 telecaster, and the guitar i play 70% of the time and have the most fun with is a £650 MIJ strat. does that mean that the others are worse? no, does it mean they don't sound or play good? no. doesw it mean i should sell them and forget about them? nope. it just means that when i pick up that strat, something about it clicks the most.
well why don't you start a bonfire, and burn the god damn PRS musicman and telecaster.
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Thanks for the great responses. I'll keep all of this in mind next time I visit the music shop. Interested in getting a Carvin as they've recently gained my attention.
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don't buy the more expensive guitar or the more affordable one. don't buy the one that the salesman pushes you.
Buy the one that sounds the best to your ears and plays the best to you.
Does knowing about a feature you didn't know about before suddenly make a given guitar sound better?
The way is sounds is obviously most important though, expensive guitars usually sound a lot better but not always.
Not being awkward, but empirically quantify "a lot". It's so subjective that no one can. yes there are definite "bad" aspects of a sound, but you can't, for example say "this guitar is 30% more resonant than that cheaper one, where anything above 25% is considered a significant increase in resonant capability".
I own a £2500 PRS, an £1800 Musicman Axis, a £1300 telecaster, and the guitar i play 70% of the time and have the most fun with is a £650 MIJ strat. does that mean that the others are worse? no, does it mean they don't sound or play good? no. doesw it mean i should sell them and forget about them? nope. it just means that when i pick up that strat, something about it clicks the most.
This says nothing about the price of the guitars. Doesn't it simply mean that you are first of all a stratman?
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well why don't you start a bonfire, and burn the god damn PRS musicman and telecaster.
well.. if i'm not going to sell them, I'm not going to recreate a hendrix performance either.
but, hypothetically, I try to put things to multiple uses, so i'd want a barbeque going at the same time, but i don't reckon poly smoked steak is gona work. maybe with some tobasco?
This click says nothing about the price of the guitars. Doesn't it simply mean that you are first of all a stratman?
Thats kind of the point though isn't it? Not that i may or not be a strat man, although to be honest, I don't think i generally am, it's just that one little guitar is pretty magical to me. In my head I'm floyd and bucker hard rockin mofo.
the point that it's "kind of" is that the OP presumably wants to get an improvement in sound by paying more. At least it's how i think a fair portion of the guitar playing public perceive price increases, what I'm saying is if he goes down and tries a lot of guitars in a shop, he may find that the one he likes the best may be the one that isn't upwards of a grand. I'm not a high end hating "a low end chinese guitar is basically the same thing as a PRS really" type player. I'm just saying the odd time you get lucky. And for each individual person different things are perceived as "good". I reckon there's probably no finer guitars than some of the handmade big box jazzers out there, for a certain type of person. But I'm not going to spend 5k upward on one thinking its going to sound better than the, say, 500 quid tokai les'er that i may use to play thin lizzy covers. Or maybe it will.
Basically to the OP, buy with your ears and you maybe suprised.
that may require you to walk into a guitar shop blindfolded. Try not to break anything on your way to finding a sales assistant. They don't like it.
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I'm with Tekbow on this one.
My strat I bought despite a) not being a strat guy and b) because out of the 15-20 guitars I tried that day that particular start just 'felt' the best.
Conversely I bought a 52 Vintage Hotrod Tele (by far the most expensive guitar I've bought, like almost 2x). I read the reviews and salivated: this is MY ultimate guitar I told myself: tele - check, neck humbucker - check, butterscotch blonde - check. Whadya know three cherries in a row, jackpot! So customer order I go. Except I've never really 'bonded' with it. I maintain that if I'd actually played it first I wouldn't have bought it.
I've subsequently bought a Tokai Loverock over the Internet (hey it was comparatively cheap, right) based purely on how it looked (chosen from about 30 others on line) and that is my 2nd favourite guitar. No way I'd have taken that risk on a Gibson for either (ironically previously it was the tele or a goldtop).
So by all means have some preconceptions when you walk in the door (but be prepared to leave them there...). Get what sounds, feels and plays best (just hope it's not that 5 figure signature custom shop LP though!)
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Alot of it can be about prestige, honestly. What exactly is your budget and what kind of guitar are you looking for? I don't think you can go far wrong with an ESP Eclipse fwiw.
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well why don't you start a bonfire, and burn the god damn PRS musicman and telecaster.
well.. if i'm not going to sell them, I'm not going to recreate a hendrix performance either.
but, hypothetically, I try to put things to multiple uses, so i'd want a barbeque going at the same time, but i don't reckon poly smoked steak is gona work. maybe with some tobasco?
This click says nothing about the price of the guitars. Doesn't it simply mean that you are first of all a stratman?
Thats kind of the point though isn't it? Not that i may or not be a strat man, although to be honest, I don't think i generally am, it's just that one little guitar is pretty magical to me. In my head I'm floyd and bucker hard rockin mofo.
the point that it's "kind of" is that the OP presumably wants to get an improvement in sound by paying more. At least it's how i think a fair portion of the guitar playing public perceive price increases, what I'm saying is if he goes down and tries a lot of guitars in a shop, he may find that the one he likes the best may be the one that isn't upwards of a grand. I'm not a high end hating "a low end chinese guitar is basically the same thing as a PRS really" type player. I'm just saying the odd time you get lucky. And for each individual person different things are perceived as "good". I reckon there's probably no finer guitars than some of the handmade big box jazzers out there, for a certain type of person. But I'm not going to spend 5k upward on one thinking its going to sound better than the, say, 500 quid tokai les'er that i may use to play thin lizzy covers. Or maybe it will.
Basically to the OP, buy with your ears and you maybe suprised.
that may require you to walk into a guitar shop blindfolded. Try not to break anything on your way to finding a sales assistant. They don't like it.
Got it. Well, I have more expensive and cheapo's. Some of the cheapo's, like my Saint Blues Mississippi Bluesmaster, sounds expensive. It has Mules though. :)
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Well nmy reasoning for the ESP Eclipse was that I love the look of Gibson Les Paul Customs, but don't want to play £2k+. Plus I prefer a thinner neck towards a Gibson. The ESP just seemed to tick all the boxes.
When it comes to custom guitars, I've fancied giving BlacKat Guitars a go. Do custom guitars tend to sound a lot better from guitar to guitar, rather than just getting lucky? They seem to have good prices and always fancied an RG style and their guitars I prefer the look of, as well as better options, and also being similar price to the Ibanez Prestige line.
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Depends on who is making it. A lot of people are happy with their customs from BlacKat and Daemoness, but there are a lot of other custom builders out there who aren't offering a great service, or even a decent instrument. Do your research well, and if possible, visit the Luthier's workshop yourself to have a chat about what you want, check out their process, and make sure you're 100% happy to give them your business.
I always thought I wanted a Daemoness, Dylan's got an awesome reputation, a lot of brilliant players have him build their perfect instruments, and they always sounded great in clips. But for the amount of money I was going to be parting with, I wanted to make sure I was 100% happy with my decision, so I went and visited him at his workshop. I wasn't disappointed at all, and have now put down a deposit. To watch him work is to see an artist creating a masterpiece.
Don't go into customs half-c--ked, be 100% happy with your decision.
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hmmmm it depends on the builder - there are alot of cowboys out there. But yea if you find someone legit that's usually the case. You don't seem sure on exactly what you want so I would advice against going on an impulse custom build until you do + you're gonna have to play the waiting game for any legit builder.
Having said that this just popped up on FB that may be of interest to you? :lol:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.576735735706046.1073741844.165185066861117&type=1 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.576735735706046.1073741844.165185066861117&type=1)
Is this the ESP you were looking at? Not keen on the matt finish they do but the gloss black ones look ace, had gas for one like this for awhile.
(http://www.richtonemusic.co.uk/ebay1/esp/ESPECLIPSE-ICTM-FT-GBK5.jpg)
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haha good advice and great minds think alike ;)
Have you made a thread on your Daemoness build yet? If not, go do it ;-)
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It's the Gloss black one. I know what I want from my custom guitar (doublecut for this). It's just colouring I'm really undecided about. But I've always been interested in a Carvin or a BlacKat. I'm just weighing up who provides better options for me. I like BlacKat for the slightly cheaper prices, but damn, Carvin make some good finishes.
Check the Jason Becker guitars. Gorgeous.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1004434_668711199810364_1556818667_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/67545_640948509253300_144634281_n.jpg)
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haha good advice and great minds think alike ;)
Have you made a thread on your Daemoness build yet? If not, go do it ;-)
Hehe, indeed! Nah he's not started building it yet. When he does, you know a thread is going to be the first thing I do. :lol:
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If you want a Les Paul then get an Epi Les Paul Tribute Plus. They are great. Well made, well finished, sound great and a bit of a bargain. Got a carved maple cap, Gibson 57's pick ups but a bit limited in colours though. I got the midnight sapphire and I love it. First guitar I've owned that I will never change a thing about it.
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How much do Carvins cost?
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How much do Carvins cost?
It all depends on options. They average between the £1200-1500 mark. But again flamed/quilted maple and other options can add up
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Seems reasonable. Pffft who wants a flame/quilt top get a solid colour ;-) that red strat looks great with the maple board and gold hardware. Bet it'd look great with white/gold. Feline has some cool guitars for sale on his site like this beast ;-)
(http://www.felineguitars.com/images/Guitars/panther/Panther%20-%20Pantera/PANTERA-4.jpg)
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I would also look at the German-made Framus Diablo, Pantera and Renegade. You can pick up a used one for nices prices and they are really well build.
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It may be a good time to have a look at mine as I'm just about to do some crazy price cuts to try to make some space and raise a little money for doing a new website
Mainly shifting stuff that falls outside my direct range models
All these are under a grand - many are half price what they would originally sell for
(http://www.felineguitars.com/images/Guitars/pointy/explorer%20-%20Kelly/Explorer-kelly-726.jpg)
(http://www.felineguitars.com/images/Guitars/panther/Panther%20-%20Purple%20Ronnie/purple-panther-1000.jpg)
(http://www.felineguitars.com/images/Guitars/panther/PANTHER%20-%20SKINNY%20NECK%20RED/panther-red.jpg)
(http://www.felineguitars.com/images/Guitars/strat/Strat%20-%20alder%20v%20neck/red-strat-v-neck-2.jpg)
(http://www.felineguitars.com/images/Guitars/Custom%20rebuilds/Gunslinger%20-%20BC%20Rich/gunslinger.jpg)
(http://www.felineguitars.com/images/Guitars/panther/Panther%20-%20swamp%20ash%20blond/PANTHER-BLONDE-SCALLOP-4.jpg)
(http://www.felineguitars.com/images/Guitars/strat/strat%20-%20Brian%20Eastwood/eastwood-strat2.jpg)
(http://www.felineguitars.com/images/Guitars/special/Baretta%20-%20maple/BARETTA%202.jpg)
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I actually sent a message to you a while bk after my brother recommended you. I'm just looking at ideas at the time being. I'll have a bit of money soon and I am looking at options. But I do love that red strat! That is loverly. :) #
What made you chose 21 frets?
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I like your explorer kelly. I think it would look great with no dots on ebony fret board, just a set of eyes at the 12th fret.