Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Dave Sloven on September 27, 2013, 04:07:02 AM
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I'm thinking of pulling out two of my Celestion V-30s and replacing them with Classic Lead 80s, probably in the usual 'X-pattern'.
Any thoughts?
I find the V-30s have a nice bite but overall too fizzy when combined with my Peavey 6534+ - in fact I liked it through my friend's well broken-in Peavey 5150 cab (with Sheffields) much better, it tamed the fizz and allowed the low mids through. I'm hoping that a mix of V-30s with something else will provide a punchy but not so fizzy sound.
I want a speaker with a higher or same power rating compared to the V-30, so this rules out 30W options
Other speakers I've considered are the G12-T75 and Eminence Swamp Thang. I'm worried that both of those might have ice pick highs though. My main guitars are very middy and I have another down-tuned guitar with Warpigs that depending on EQ can sound quite bassy through this set-up, although it sounded good through my friend's Peavey cab and my amp
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T75s arent as bright as V30s, and swamp thangs are pretty dull imo.
Both speakers are quite scooped, the 75s more so. 75s and V30s blend well together in the room, they smooth each other out. Both are also quite a lot bassier than V30s.
The best speakers for 5150s are mesa V30s imo. Very different speaker. This is a test of my 6505+ through my mesa recto standard and then ubercab: both are ostensibly V30s (2 V30s in the uber, 2 75s, I miced a V30).
https://soundcloud.com/mdv/mesa-rectocab-vs-boger-ubercab
I didnt take much care to place the mics - just stuck one infront of the mesa in a vaguely sensible place and then tried to match that place on the uber, so neither is an optimal recording by any stretch, but its a decent comparison.
I'm pretty sure you can get mesa V30s without the cab one way or another.
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greenbacks blend well with the V30s
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T75s arent as bright as V30s
nah i'd say t75s are brighter than v30s- fewer upper mids, but more actual highs. the highs on a v30 are rolled off...
regarding classic leads, I haven't tried them in a 4x12 but i have tried the v30/cl80 combo in a 2x12. Very modern, chunky tone. The CL80 combines well with the v30, but you'd need to know you wanted that kind of modern, chunky type of tone.
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T75s arent as bright as V30s, and swamp thangs are pretty dull imo.
Both speakers are quite scooped, the 75s more so. 75s and V30s blend well together in the room, they smooth each other out. Both are also quite a lot bassier than V30s.
The best speakers for 5150s are mesa V30s imo. Very different speaker. This is a test of my 6505+ through my mesa recto standard and then ubercab: both are ostensibly V30s (2 V30s in the uber, 2 75s, I miced a V30).
https://soundcloud.com/mdv/mesa-rectocab-vs-boger-ubercab (https://soundcloud.com/mdv/mesa-rectocab-vs-boger-ubercab)
I'll give this a listen when the rest of the people in the house aren't asleep ... it's nearly 2am here. I tend to think that the 5150/6065 & 5150 II/6505+ are very different in the mid-range from my 6534+, and that perhaps I have suffered somewhat from taking recommendations for the 6505+ too uncritically. My amp seems to have a LOT more mid-range cut on the same settings through the same cab as my friend's 5150 II. To be honest I had trouble hearing his leads against the other guitarist (Krankenstein through Rev 1 cab) but when he switched to my amp the leads suddenly stood out. This was in a practice room with no pedals (all he had plugged into it was the footswitch) and no mixing. I was blown away by how much midrange cut it had with the mid control severely scooped. I think this indicates that the EQ - taken from the 6505+ - reacts very differently with the 6534+. Some people have said that the EQ is really low, low mid, and high mid, with the presence control affecting the highs. This might be why he was getting so many upper mids on the same setting as his 6505+.
I thought the Bogner Uberkab has a V30/T75 x-pattern? I'm seriously considering pulling out two of my V30s and installing T75s in those slots. I find that the V30s tend to overemphasize the already strong upper mids of the 6534+ - the T75s should add in more lows and highs, while the two remaining V30s will still give me those mids.
I'm still interested in the V30/CL80 mix in a 412 though.
In this comparison I preferred the CL80s to the V30s by a considerable margin.
Marshall AFD100 - Celestion Classic Lead 80s vs Vintage 30 speakers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oxV-idemTs#)
It's interesting because in some other clips - I think done with a modeller - I consistently preferred the V30
The 'added highs' of the T75s worry me - I feel that I have more than enough highs with the V30s
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T75s arent as bright as V30s
nah i'd say t75s are brighter than v30s- fewer upper mids, but more actual highs. the highs on a v30 are rolled off...
regarding classic leads, I haven't tried them in a 4x12 but i have tried the v30/cl80 combo in a 2x12. Very modern, chunky tone. The CL80 combines well with the v30, but you'd need to know you wanted that kind of modern, chunky type of tone.
Depends what you call bright then. What you say is true; V30 has more upper mids and bottom treble (presence region that I'd call bright), T75 has more of the highest frequencies (treble/fizz).
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T75s arent as bright as V30s, and swamp thangs are pretty dull imo.
Both speakers are quite scooped, the 75s more so. 75s and V30s blend well together in the room, they smooth each other out. Both are also quite a lot bassier than V30s.
The best speakers for 5150s are mesa V30s imo. Very different speaker. This is a test of my 6505+ through my mesa recto standard and then ubercab: both are ostensibly V30s (2 V30s in the uber, 2 75s, I miced a V30).
https://soundcloud.com/mdv/mesa-rectocab-vs-boger-ubercab (https://soundcloud.com/mdv/mesa-rectocab-vs-boger-ubercab)
I'll give this a listen when the rest of the people in the house aren't asleep ... it's nearly 2am here. I tend to think that the 5150/6065 & 5150 II/6505+ are very different in the mid-range from my 6534+, and that perhaps I have suffered somewhat from taking recommendations for the 6505+ too uncritically. My amp seems to have a LOT more mid-range cut on the same settings through the same cab as my friend's 5150 II. To be honest I had trouble hearing his leads against the other guitarist (Krankenstein through Rev 1 cab) but when he switched to my amp the leads suddenly stood out. This was in a practice room with no pedals (all he had plugged into it was the footswitch) and no mixing. I was blown away by how much midrange cut it had with the mid control severely scooped. I think this indicates that the EQ - taken from the 6505+ - reacts very differently with the 6534+. Some people have said that the EQ is really low, low mid, and high mid, with the presence control affecting the highs. This might be why he was getting so many upper mids on the same setting as his 6505+.
I thought the Bogner Uberkab has a V30/T75 x-pattern? I'm seriously considering pulling out two of my V30s and installing T75s in those slots. I find that the V30s tend to overemphasize the already strong upper mids of the 6534+ - the T75s should add in more lows and highs, while the two remaining V30s will still give me those mids.
I'm still interested in the V30/CL80 mix in a 412 though.
In this comparison I preferred the CL80s to the V30s by a considerable margin.
Marshall AFD100 - Celestion Classic Lead 80s vs Vintage 30 speakers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oxV-idemTs#)
It's interesting because in some other clips - I think done with a modeller - I consistently preferred the V30
The 'added highs' of the T75s worry me - I feel that I have more than enough highs with the V30s
Maybe try some eminence legend V128s? THey're very similar to V30s but with a bit less high end no nasal mid spike but plenty of mids and less & tighter low end.
I was having a lot of issue with v30s with my amp which is an SLO clone and has loads of upper mids and is quite bright so the v30s were really harsh and grating and a bit loose in the lows. The Legends sorted it right out. The best thing is you can get two legends for the price of one v30/T75
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I played that clip.
The Mesa doesn't sound anything like my V30 cab really but the Bogner sounds a lot of more like it. I'd be interested to hear a recording that gave a better impression of the mix of speakers in the cab.
I'm not keen to get rid off all four speakers in order to install four new ones that I have no experience of, seems like another shot in the dark on top of the one I made with the 6534+/PPC412 combo. I will get a pair of speakers that will combine well with the V30s and which have a flatter (or even scooped) response than the V30s to balance the cab out a bit. At the moment I'm still thinking it's between T75s, CL80s, and Swamp Thangs, but the more I listen to samples of the latter I'm thinking they are the ones I'd go for. Also they are closer in sensitivity to the V30 than the T75.
BASELINE: V30 = 100dB
Swamp Thang = 102dB (+2)
CL80 = 99dB (-1)
T75 = 97dB (-3)
On this list the CL80 is the closest, only 1dB difference. However I have read reports where the V30s still dominates the CL80 due to its mid spike. The Eminence might also be slightly overrated vis-a-vis the Celestions. In any case there is a good chance that the Swamp Thangs will balance with the V30s and I've only read good from people who've tried the combo. The Swamp Thangs are more expensive for me though as there aren't local sellers for them and the postage on speakers is always a killer. Maybe only $30 more for a pair though.
I also like the V30 and Swamp Thang individually the best in the following test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK0sa7tlfI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK0sa7tlfI)
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It's hard to sift through all the opinions out there on the net!
One thing I am picking up is that some combos work better in 212s and others in 412s
V30/CL80 has a great rep in 212s
V30/T75 has a great rep in 412s
I have a 412 ... The volume of the cab makes the difference? Or the placement of the speakers relative to the floor? Not sure if 212s are vertical, horizontal, or a mix of both
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I would go with the T75s from the speakers discussed.
Firstly, many people have tried them in a combo with a V30 and they are generally acknowledged to work well together.
Secondly, they are a very common speaker and should be cheap on the secondhand market.
I am surprised you are getting ice pick highs with downtuned warpigs. It might be worth experimenting a bit with valves.
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I'm not getting icepick highs with the Warpigs. I've had a little bit of them with the Cold Sweat, but generally a lot of fizz from the speakers with either the A-Bomb or the Cold Sweat in the SG. The Warpig seems to bring out the bassiness of the Orange cab. I don't play that guitar very much - it's in pieces at the moment as I started working on the pickup cavities and the Triple Shots before deciding that I'd much rather have a tech install the latter after I've finished painting the cavities and have a new harness made and installed (plus my grandmother died a couple of days ago so I have family things to attend to) - so my recent sessions with it have largely been with the SG
I was mainly worried that the T75 might introduce 'icepick highs' into the mix on top of the V30 mid fizz.
SG = middy guitar
6534+ = middy amp
V30s = middy speakers
result is mid-overload. I need to balance it out somehow. Swapping the A-Bomb out for a Cold Sweat has helped with the low mids, but I'm still getting a lot of fizz in the high mids.
I'll be interested to see how the amp/speaker combo interacts with the P-90 in the SG Junior when it arrives
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The 5150 type amps have tones of gain and plenty of fizz on tap.
I don't really like V30 loaded 4x12's that much but I do like V30's. 4xV30s is just a bit too much V30 for me. I have a couple of British made V30's at the moment but they aren't in my cab.
Ive tired the V30+T75 X pattern and I really liked it. I had two cabs like that. It was cheap to try out and I toured with that setup for a while. Bogner used that setup in the Uberkab I think. It's a pretty tried and tested way of doing things and i wouldn't worry at all about the 3dB sensitivity difference.
I tried the V30+CL80 mix and didn't like it. At the time I felt like I had too much low end and the cab sounded muffled.
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I tried the V30+CL80 mix and didn't like it. At the time I felt like I had too much low end and the cab sounded muffled.
Thanks for this. Were you playing one of the 5150 series amps through it? Also, how close was the cab to a Orange PPC412 in terms of construction? This cab seems like it could be bassy and muffly if it wanted to, so it seems that if the CL80 was going in that direction more so than the T75 then I would be better off with the T75. How does the three dB difference affect the overall sound? I'm guessing it means that the V30s are dominant but obviously watered-down relative to how they sound in 4xV30 cab. I'm not too worried about an overall volume drop as frankly I doubt I'll ever max this rig out. I'm just wondering what the overall sound characteristics are like with the 5150 series amps, which tend toward the fizz even with the EL34 power section etc
I should add that there is no price advantage with the T75s here in Australia. The only way I could save money is if I bought a second cab with all T75s second-hand and then put two of my V30s in that and took two of its T&5s for the Orange. But a cab like that would cost $800, while a pair of new T75s, V30s, or CL80s costs $280 minimum on ebay here. I don't see any second-hand ones
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I can't remember if I was using those cabs with those speakers with a 5150 at that point. I defo used them with my old EL34 Soldano Avenger.
The cabs were both cheap Marshall 1960A cabs. I always kind of like those over other cabs I played. I played a l lot of shows where I borrowed cabs and used my head. So I've used a bunch over the years. Anyway, they never did me wrong and sounded good and I quite liked using angled cabs. I use a soldano straight cab now.
The PPC412 has more low end. The thing with speakers is they aren't that cheap new, the don't really hold resale value that much if you want to sell em on after not liking em, and they take time to break in before you can get an accurate idea of the results. I didn't have the CL80's long enough to break them in. I really didn't like how they sounded... but i HAVE been tempted since to try that combo again after I thought maybe I didn't give them enough of a chance... I'd just be on the lookout for used CL80's or even something like Mesa MC90's rather than new speakers. 3dB difference isn't a huge difference. It's the same difference as a 50watt and a 100watt amp to your ears. I don't want to say T75's definitely WONT add to the fizz. It's a while since I've used them, but I just liked the combo and its very popular. CL80's will probably make a darker mix. When I used a 5150 I was a fan of not using too much gain and keeping in mind the effect of presence and resonance controls is proportionate to the Master Volume settings, so you may want less presence/depth at gig volumes than you would at practice levels.
Over here second hand T75's are easy to find. They have a poor rep for tone so I think a lot of people don't give them a chance.
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This is no help, but it's very hard to know until you try them. And liking a speaker alone doesn't mean you'll like it in a mix. And sometimes speakers that shouldn't mix well on paper mix well in practice. Plus as you said, different speakers suit different cabs, and different amps...
It's a bit like pickups, you do as much research as you can but eventually you kinda have to bite the bullet and take a chance. :lol:
Depends what you call bright then. What you say is true; V30 has more upper mids and bottom treble (presence region that I'd call bright), T75 has more of the highest frequencies (treble/fizz).
agreed. :)
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I kind of feel that I already have as much fizz as I can take ... I get the feeling that the CL80 is less fizzy, less scooped, and in general just more 'neutral' (lets the amp character through more) than the T75. If I can get a cheap cab with one or the other though - e.g. a $300 blackstar or line 6 rather than a Marshall - I could then do a swap and either sell one cab or keep it in the garage and only use it for band practice and gigs and leave the pretty Orange one in the house. It would also be broken in. That would be the cheapest way to do it. Otherwise I could get a Marshall T75 cab and do the same thing and then sell it on, as long as I don't pay too much
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^ yeah i'd say that sounds like a reasonable comparison. if you don't want more fizz, avoid the t75. the t75 is almost a bit like a more vintage CL80s- its bass isn't as tight and has a little more of that vintage-celestion type of tone than the CL80 which is much more modern-sounding. The CL80 is chunkier and tighter and more neutral, as you said.
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Cheers.
I found out that the blackstar htv-412A cab has SeventyEighty speakers in it, which I definitely want to avoid. I will probably order a pair of new CL80s while the prices are in the reasonable (rather than the usual ridiculous) price range here. Both CL80s and T75s seem hard to find used here, unless one gets T75s in a Marshall cab but most of them are pretty poor condition under $800
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I removed the back cover on my Orange PPC412 today and had a look at the speakers.
They are 444 stamped cones, 16ohm, made in China V30s. None of them are twisted or anything.
I found the screws incredibly difficult to remove at at least one screw has been burred out in the process. I'm thinking that I should run a small drill (mounted in my Tamiya hobby drill with the 9V battery) down the screw holes as it seems that while the back cover was drilled the screws were then driven into the wood with an electrical screwdriver with a fair amount of force applied. Hopefully this will make the back easier to remove and replace later. As it stands I am having trouble replacing the screws
EDIT: Here are some pretty photos
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2iqjr7r.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/257hfr4.jpg)
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nice pics :)
It's ages since I've tried 70/80s, but I remember not being too fussed. I'd avoid them, too.
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I put 4 Classic Leads into a Marshall 4x12 cabinet.
The Classic Leads are very good speakers with a massive amount of mids, and a tone much smoother than any other speakers I've used. A few things worth noting is you won't get classic tones out of them where you will out of V30s as they're more modernly voiced. They also have less presence than other speakers, so you will want to turn your presence up a little higher than normal.
I would say the V30s are the best do-everything speakers I am familiar with but the Classic Leads are my favorite.
I would probably put the classic leads on the bottom because they have a lot better low end than V30s but only if you're playing a large room. In smaller rooms, an X shape might be the way to go.
For what it's worth, I absolutely hate T75s with their scooped mids and fizzy highs and lows that sounds someone has bad gas (the best I can describe it). If you think V30s are fizzy, the best advice I can give is to skip right over them. Personally there was not one tone I'd ever want that they did remotely decently, and that's not something I say lightly -- they're just that bad. And for what it's worth, most of my guitars and amps are very middy, I'd time the mids and it would still sound rather scooped. The highs are fizzy, but weren't extremely overkill either, just fizzy.
I'm not too familiar with Eminence speakers so I can't get a good cross reference.
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Hey I have an A/B for you I did a while ago...
take1 is all t75s. That was as good as I could get it with those speakers....
take2 is the same rhythm but the lead is on the classic leads.
tone tweak was me fooling around at the end of the take2 lead track on classic leads... closest I did to a rhythm the same day with the same setup on the classic leads
The difference would be much more pronounced if I had better microphones at the time.... or tripping over wires at the time too, which affected my playing.
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Cheers for the comments and clips ... the T75s sound rather 'fartastic' and not what I want at all ... my GAS for new speakers has calmed a little not because the V30s are sounding better (they still haven't finished breaking in as far as I can tell, maybe I should borrow my mate's bass and play Venom bass licks through them all day?) so much as I've found other things to spend money on ... I definitely want to balance out the mid-spike in the cab and reduce the fizzies a bit still, so maybe in a few weeks time.
On the cab, it seems that while the back board was drilled the screws are simply forced through the cab frame. Behind every screw was a broken layer of ply where the screws had been forced in with a power screwdriver. That's what counts for 'hand-made' these days ... anyway I drilled each hole right through and made sure that while each screw was a firm fit that they could actually be removed by hand with a screwdriver without chewing out the screw heads in future. One of the screws could only be removed with multi-grips! The head on that one is a bit chewed out so I made one of the holes along the top a little looser than the others and installed that one there. I also vacuumed out the sawdust that result from all my drilling. Now the back of the cabinet can be removed and reinstalled without extreme force.
The chuck on the Tamiya drill was too small for the drill I had to use. I used a regular cordless drill
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Hope the clips were somewhat useful.
Honestly, I hope your cabinet repair solves your problem. I was quite surprised to hear you had issues with the V30s sounding fizzy. I don't find them to be fizzy speakers at all, they're just not as smooth as the Classic Leads. But they're also very multi-purpose. There's been many times that I wish I got the V30s, mainly for the vintage tones they're capable of mainly for my Marshall Major. But at some point I will replace the speakers in my straight cabinet with V30s and have both options to choose from.
I also have a modified JCM 900 SL-X and that's a really sweet match with the classic leads.
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It might just be that I'm not giving them enough to break them in. Like I said, I might need to run a bass through them to soften them up a bit.
I mainly pulled the back off the cab to check exactly what I had in there before I did anything, and because I read somewhere about someone finding an over-tightened and distorted basket in an Orange cab after their warranty expired. This cab is still only four months old or something and it still hasn't been outside the house yet, which limits chances to play it loud enough to break anything in. When I've played the Peavey elsewhere I've borrowed a cab rather than haul this 50kg monster.
I'm glad though that I checked everything and that I fixed the screw holes. I'll give the V30s more time to break in before changing anything. Thanks