Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: EffigyForgotten on October 09, 2013, 12:05:16 PM
-
I'm curious to what the differences are between these speakers in a 4x12 cab playing black/death metal. Currently using a PRS Custom 24 with an HD set and Bugera 6260.
My 2x12 doesn't spread the sound enough, like its way too directional, would a 4x12 help this and is getting an open back or "semi" open back cab going to help or should I just go with a closed back which is suppose to be tighter sounding?
-
My Orange PPC412 is very directional. Sounds very different depending on where you stand in relation to it. I think it's the cab's fault, not the speakers, as V30s are used in a lot of cabs.
-
Yeah it is 100% the cabs fault, but I figure 2 more speakers would result in the sound spreading out more. Plus having my face right in the middle of 2 speakers to hear the best sound is kind of annoying.
This thread is more about the speakers though as I will get another custom cab when I get the money.
-
Straight cabs seem to be more directional than slant cabs.
Also I wonder how much the 'tweed' on the front causes this effect? Orange cabs seem to have a quite heavy fabric there for the sound to push through. Maybe try taking yours off and see if it sounds much different. You might be able to replace it with a more open grill type thing like front-loaded cabs often use
-
The grill on mine is about as open as possible, [img]http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h382/atirado5/WP_000182.jpg/img]
Looks like that.
-
OK well that's one variable you won't need to investigate!
-
I really doubt there's anyone here with experience with all these speakers, 95% of guitarists seem to use celestions.
-
Umm... before you consider the speakers themselves.
A 4x12, certainly a straight one, is more directional than a 2x12 - the sound-waves from the sound sources (each speaker) interract. With a 4x12 you end up with a kind of "cross-shaped" beam coming straight out of the box. The direction the cab is pointing is the direct that beam is going. Sure you can hear it either side, but it's a lot louder and focused for anyone stood or sat in the "beam".
From your original post, if you want less directional than a 2x12, with sound radiating in all directions, you need to go the other way - 1x12.
But that might add a whole different set of things that might be issues for you instead? :lol:
I used 1x12 when I was gigging because it was essential that I could subconsciously "focus" on the sound coming out of that corner of the stage, no matter where on the stage I was. When I could focus like that, I could "hear" my guitar on auto-pilot and then concentrate more on the @rsing-about and being the lead-vocalist at the same time.
When I used 4x12 it was a complete nightmare - the sound was huge, fabulous, but I couldn't hear my guitar well enough to feel secure that I was playing it correctly... unless I stood in front of the bloody cab!!
Obviously, I could have got used to the on-stage effect of a 4x12, but I didn't (and we had other reasons for keeping me 1x12).
But the key thing is this:
2x12 is more directional than 1x12
4x12 is even more directional than 2x12
Don't get a 4x12 for spreading the sound better, get it for a BIGGER sound or louder.
-
Well a bigger/louder sound is a good thing.
-
4x12 is probably what you want then! :D
Don't be surprised by it being more directional, though.
It really surprised me when I experienced it years ago. I'd wanted to get a 4x12 but couldn't afford it (or carry it!). Someone lent us one for a few gigs. It sounded fabulous on its own, but I hated it during the gigs. It was our sound-engineer (a physicist) who explained it to me when I told him what my problem was on stage - it's interference and diffraction when you use multiple wave sources.
If you google it, most of the examples will be about light as a waveform, but the same thing applies to sound-waves - multiple speakers in a cab set up diffraction patterns that result in "peaks" and "troughs" - louder and quieter places in the room - that we perceive as "the cab is a bit directional".
A 2x12's diffraction pattern is "spokes" (like a cartwheel) of loudness radiating out from the cab, stand in between these spokes and it's quieter. A 4x12 generates a diffraction pattern that ends up as cross-shaped beam coming out from the front of the cab.
It's more complicated than that, obviously, especially when you add in reflections off of walls, ceiling, etc. But the spokes and the cross thing are the effects caused by the speaker configuration.
A single speaker just radiates in all directions, no interractions with other primary sources of the same sound, so no peaks and troughs. So we don't perceive the cab as directional.
(Oh, and btw, the questions on speakers themselves, can't help you there, no experience on that side of things! :D)
-
Any closed cab back will be fairly directional.
Try removing the back panel and seeing how you like it. If its better to your ears then i would suggest cutting a panel in the back that can be removed seperately this will help to keep the sound spread out but the mostly closed nature will retain the tightness you will be used to.,
Another option is beam blockers. Whilst traditionally meant to stop the highs being so directional they do work very well with spreading the sound out too. However as a downside they make micing the cab a nightmare.
-
I haven't tried the wizard or governor- from what I hear, they're eminence's take on a g12h30 and v30 respectively (which I have tried).
R W+B is American-sounding, and (fairly) vintage-sounding. Unless you're sure that's what you want, I doubt it is, kind of thing.
v12 is kind of like a more mellow v30, with more lower mids/chunk.
-
I haven't tried the wizard or governor- from what I hear, they're eminence's take on a g12h30 and v30 respectively (which I have tried).
R W+B is American-sounding, and (fairly) vintage-sounding. Unless you're sure that's what you want, I doubt it is, kind of thing.
v12 is kind of like a more mellow v30, with more lower mids/chunk.
It's interesting that you think that about the V12. I find it more aggressive but less fizzy with less low end. You are right about the low mids though I also found it a heck of a lot tighter. Most likely due to the fact it isn't as boomy.
-
I can only add that the Governor is a very good speaker and does not have to fear being compared to the V30 at all.
-
Quite frankly, comparing Eminence to Celestion is b*llsh*t.
-
Quite frankly, comparing Eminence to Celestion is b*llsh*t.
Why is that? Aren't most eminence speakers upgraded/copies of celestion speakers?
-
Whatever Eminence speakers are in the Krank Revolution cabinet one of my friends has sound pretty good. I think they are called Legends. A lot like V30s but with more bottom and less of that mid spike.
Mind you the Revolution cab is pretty big, maybe a similar volume to the Mesa oversized
-
I have the V12 legends in my 2x12 and I like them, but they could be more aggressive, and maybe have a little more upper mids.
What is the major difference between the Governor and RW&B? They have the exact same description and the only seem to be different in the wattage, what does this do to the sound?
-
I just had a strange idea, which might be retarded.
Would it work to cut out a smallish square from the back of the cab to make something like an upside-down catflap, and add a hinge at the bottom and a lip at the top of the square hole where two screws could be used (together with a foam seal) to quickly change it back to a closed back cab if needed?
Alternatively it could just have a lip all round and four screws and just be lifted in and out as needed
Could possibly be the silliest idea ever but i might work better than a true open cab and take off just enough pressure for the sound to be more diffuse coming from the front.
-
I was having an even stranger idea earlier - why the back? What would happen if you opened up the sides somewhat?
Does anyone know?
Edit: Obviously with suitable bracing/wotever so that it doesn't fold up when you stick something heavy like, er, an amp on top of it! :lol:
-
I haven't tried the wizard or governor- from what I hear, they're eminence's take on a g12h30 and v30 respectively (which I have tried).
R W+B is American-sounding, and (fairly) vintage-sounding. Unless you're sure that's what you want, I doubt it is, kind of thing.
v12 is kind of like a more mellow v30, with more lower mids/chunk.
It's interesting that you think that about the V12. I find it more aggressive but less fizzy with less low end. You are right about the low mids though I also found it a heck of a lot tighter. Most likely due to the fact it isn't as boomy.
I'd have said the v30 was tighter :lol: Admittedly I'm not playing at super high volumes... :oops:
What is the major difference between the Governor and RW&B? They have the exact same description and the only seem to be different in the wattage, what does this do to the sound?
Assuming the governor sounds somewhat like a v30, but with eminence's own twist on it (as i said, I haven't tried the governor), they're gonna sound totally different. The whole "american" versus "british" tonality is a massive difference. I know my r w+b sounds nothing like a v30, for example. Almost as different as it's possible to get with guitar speakers.
-
I haven't tried the wizard or governor- from what I hear, they're eminence's take on a g12h30 and v30 respectively (which I have tried).
R W+B is American-sounding, and (fairly) vintage-sounding. Unless you're sure that's what you want, I doubt it is, kind of thing.
v12 is kind of like a more mellow v30, with more lower mids/chunk.
It's interesting that you think that about the V12. I find it more aggressive but less fizzy with less low end. You are right about the low mids though I also found it a heck of a lot tighter. Most likely due to the fact it isn't as boomy.
I'd have said the v30 was tighter :lol: Admittedly I'm not playing at super high volumes... :oops:
That could be it. I found the v30s were ok at home but in band situations the low end got too out of control not as much as the high mids & high end did though!
It could all be down to the amps we're using too. I remember having a manowar few years back which was really tight with a marshall but with everything else it was a mushy mess.
-
I haven't tried the wizard or governor- from what I hear, they're eminence's take on a g12h30 and v30 respectively (which I have tried).
R W+B is American-sounding, and (fairly) vintage-sounding. Unless you're sure that's what you want, I doubt it is, kind of thing.
v12 is kind of like a more mellow v30, with more lower mids/chunk.
It's interesting that you think that about the V12. I find it more aggressive but less fizzy with less low end. You are right about the low mids though I also found it a heck of a lot tighter. Most likely due to the fact it isn't as boomy.
I'd have said the v30 was tighter :lol: Admittedly I'm not playing at super high volumes... :oops:
What is the major difference between the Governor and RW&B? They have the exact same description and the only seem to be different in the wattage, what does this do to the sound?
Assuming the governor sounds somewhat like a v30, but with eminence's own twist on it (as i said, I haven't tried the governor), they're gonna sound totally different. The whole "american" versus "british" tonality is a massive difference. I know my r w+b sounds nothing like a v30, for example. Almost as different as it's possible to get with guitar speakers.
The governor is pretty much in the same ballpark as the 16 ohm version of the V30. I had both for a while. If you played a cab without knowing which one is in it, I doubt you'd be able to actually find out by just listening. Fiddling with the amp EQ has a bigger impact.
-
So is the Governor tighter than the V30? Or the V12? I like the "british" sound I guess, considering I generally prefer EL34 type tubes to 6L6.
-
The RW&B is based around the 60s Jensen C12N with added mid-range to cut the highs. Its great in modern Fender amps (I stripped the V30s out of my Supersonic as I hate V30s and put RW+Bs in) but its not really comparable to a Celestion in sound. If you want a hybrid American/British the one to go for is the Texas Heat.
-
Also is the Wizard more aggressive than the Governor?
-
That could be it. I found the v30s were ok at home but in band situations the low end got too out of control not as much as the high mids & high end did though!
It could all be down to the amps we're using too. I remember having a manowar few years back which was really tight with a marshall but with everything else it was a mushy mess.
Yeah possibly :lol: I seem to remember v30s tightening up when I cranked them, but I haven't cranked my v12s, they may tighten up even more.
The RW&B is based around the 60s Jensen C12N with added mid-range to cut the highs. Its great in modern Fender amps (I stripped the V30s out of my Supersonic as I hate V30s and put RW+Bs in) but its not really comparable to a Celestion in sound. If you want a hybrid American/British the one to go for is the Texas Heat.
Agreed (I didn't know what the rw+b was based on, but it does sound american to my ears). And yeah the TH is a nice all-rounder- I'd still say it sounds american, though, just with a wee bit of british thrown in. If you want to come at it the other way round (i.e. a british-sounding speaker which has a little bit of american in there), the celestions with fewer mids (or other companies' speakers which are based on them) are probably the way to go- G12H30, Classic Lead, even a g12t75 at a pinch.
-
So is the Governor tighter than the V30? Or the V12? I like the "british" sound I guess, considering I generally prefer EL34 type tubes to 6L6.
I'd say it's all in EQ range, really.
-
I'm also now interested in celestion speakers, in particular the Classic Lead, G12K-100, and the G12T "Hot 100". I really like the Legends I have in my current cab but I wish they were more "present" and unique sounding. Not just flat, with the whole tight/smooth sound. This originally made me think governors, as they will have more breakup and more mids and highs, but I want to explore all my options.
-
I haven't tried the g12k or the g12t, but I know a lot of people think the Classic Lead can be a bit neutral-, even sterile-, sounding. If you want more "character" than a v12, I'm not sure the Classic Lead is necessarily the way to go. That being said, your idea of character might be completely different from other people's, so it's hard to say for sure. :lol:
-
Also is the Wizard more aggressive than the Governor?
Well, the Wizard is supposed to be extremely trebly. The Governor is Eminence's take on the V30. I've heard great things about Eminence's Swamp Thang & Texas Heat mix in a 4x12.
I've got a couple of V128's in a Lopo 2x12 and I love them. They're the only thing that finally got rid of that nasty fizz in my Peavey XXX's tone (changed tubes to JJE34L, added EQ, changed pickups). I got a pair of v128 for $120 + $20 installation.
If I have to describe the v128, it's that it's both slightly warm and slightly neutral. Honestly, these are my first non-stock speakers, so all I have to compare them to are V30's and worse, so bare with me.
In spite of it being a Loudspeaker, it's actually fairly transparent (even though I rarely leave the 2 gain channels on my XXX, yes, these speakers are metal as $%&#).
It's warm, but it doesn't beat you over the head with it's warmth, nor does it turn into a vortex that absorbs the highs.
Oh, and the V128 sounds great at bedroom volume (I've heard they make v1216, but you have to get it through Soldono?)
-
I have a borrowed wizard in my 1x12 for over a year and I still can't get used to it
I had several v30's, a century vintage and black shadow in this cab and they all sounded much better
the century vintage (neodymium v30) had this dry hi end response, but so does the wizard
the wizard is NOT trebly, but the mids sound kinda hardand lifeless and nothing like the g12h and the scumback h75 I had
the v30 is far more aggressive, but smoother and more organic at the same time
not a fan of the governor and v12 as well
I think I could enjoy a gb12 or private jack, but I'd still take a celestion over them
if you're in europe, you can get new v30's from thomann quite cheap, or used celestions in the uk