Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: CommonCourtesy on November 01, 2013, 01:27:28 PM
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So i'm taking a look at one of these next week, anyone else own one?
Do you use a noisegate if you play on the lead channel alot?
I have a boss NS-2 but i find it sucks tone, i have read the ISP Decimator is much better, for controlling feedback!
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Don't own one, but played a few before. A noisegate is a must when you're using any of the 6505 series, as far as I know when you use the Noisegate going into the fx loop of the head it's supposed to reduce the overall hiss and noise the amp gives you (you won't be able to silence your pedals at the same though I think). The 6534+ head has an internal noisegate if memory serves me right. Agent Orange will surely chime in and give you his experience, he owns said head.
As far as Noisegates go yes the NS-2 colors your sound, but from my experience there are quite a lot people who like what it does to their tone (including me) and it's a cheap and safe solution (lots of the famous guitarists and bands use it as well). If you don't want any coloration go for the ISP Decimator. These seem to be more popular with all the modern metal guys (djent and all that stuff).
Cheers
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Cheers for the reply mate!
Yeah the only effect I have is an Ibanez Tubescreamer, which I kick on for more gain but I suspect with this 6505+ I won't need any extra overdrives!
Other than that I only use a Boss TU-2 tuner!
I have been reading where the noise gate would go and if its noise coming from the amp I want to silence it'd go via the fx loop. There's no noise coming from the guitar or any other pedals cos there aren't any. Is the reason why its in the FX loop cos it doesn't interfere with the amp's pre-amp stage? Or is there another reason?
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The fx loop lies between the signal of your preamp (where you get your distortion) and your poweramp (which amplifies the signal) and is meant to be used for effects such as Delay, Reverb and Chorus. If you put those effects in front of the amp their signal (and thus the effect they deliver) will get distorted and often that's not wanted, so the fx loop lets you employ those pedals with the proper sound.
Best example I can give you is Josh Middletons rig rundown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nC_d9lwTG0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nC_d9lwTG0)
If you don't care to watch the whole video, around the 4 minute mark he shows the exact difference between straight in front of the amp and put into the fx loop.
If you use only a Tubescreamer and a Tuner (and the Noisegate you want to get) there's not much hassle with that stuff. The NS-2 has the option of the X-Pattern:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/gear-equipment/111082-peavey-6505-boss-ns-2-x-pattern.html (http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/gear-equipment/111082-peavey-6505-boss-ns-2-x-pattern.html)
That's a thread that will answer your questions, it's exactly about the 6505 in combination with the Noise Suppressor.
Last advice I will give you is to use the Tubescreamer for your advantage. Most people (including myself) utilize it to tighten up the amp, use less gain from the head and boost the mids. Works like a charm. Typical pedal settings are gain on 0, level on half or full and tone on half or full. Experiment with different settings to find what suits you best.
Hope this helps, if you have any additional questions fire away
Cheers!
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Yeah this is what i thought, cos there's no effects pedals causing the noise, well apart from the tubescreamer when i kick it on but that's only during when i'm playing.
I've heard of the X pattern, is that only if you're using an NS-2 in your board? Otherwise I'd just set up my amp and put my NS-2 (if i decide to use it instead of an ISP) on top of my amp with 2 cables going into send/return. I wouldn't need it on my board? If i got the ISP however where would that go?
The tubescreamer settings confuse me, the drive knob controls the gain doesn't it? And the level controls the volume? Or is it the other way round? I find myself having to turn both knobs down during the set cos it starts feedbacking. I usually run my gain on 5 and never any higher on my amp. If i get the 6505+ it'd be about the same setting, maybe 6.
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Putting any pedal really is going to start making a lot of noise especially in front of a 6505.
You shouldn't be having noise if you have the NS-2 (and for the record both the NS-2 and ISP's suck tone anyone who says otherwise is just believing all the sevenstring.org hype)
Put both the pedals up front in the amp (the NS-2 first) and people use overdrives to make the high gain sound on their amps tighter, more articulate, and to get more clarity. Its not to use by itself and is not for more gain, the 6505 is already one of the highest gain amps ever created (you shouldn't be going past 4 on the gain knob really) you put the Tube Screamer type pedal in front of the amp with the level maxed (this gives it a nice clean boost) and the drive all the down, and the tone depends on the pedal/pickups/guitar/amp but for me usually around 1/2 a clock.
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I'm not a big user of effects pedals in this band, the tubescreamer is the only one i have.
I have used the NS-2 before and i found with my current amp (Marshall JCM2000) it kills the sustain and doing squealies is really hard without a tubescreamer. I took the NS-2 out and it seemed to have improved, i have good cabling (Mogami) and power supply (T-rex Fuel Tank Junior) so its not that noisy.
This will change however with a 6505+, hopefully I can just use the clean/crunch and lead channel's via a footswitch and no need for any other overdrive pedals!
If the ISP is so expensive its got to be better than the NS-2 surely? Money talks!
Will try the settings on the TS9, with the gain on the head at 5.
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I'm not a big user of effects pedals in this band, the tubescreamer is the only one i have.
I have used the NS-2 before and i found with my current amp (Marshall JCM2000) it kills the sustain and doing squealies is really hard without a tubescreamer. I took the NS-2 out and it seemed to have improved, i have good cabling (Mogami) and power supply (T-rex Fuel Tank Junior) so its not that noisy.
This will change however with a 6505+, hopefully I can just use the clean/crunch and lead channel's via a footswitch and no need for any other overdrive pedals!
If the ISP is so expensive its got to be better than the NS-2 surely? Money talks!
Will try the settings on the TS9, with the gain on the head at 5.
The ISP Decimator is only 30$ more than a NS-2, and they do the same thing really. You likely had the settings too high on the NS-2, MANY pro guitarists use the NS-2 (including my favorite band Suffocation, who use just the NS-2 and OD808/OD9 through Peavey amps, and their live sound is effin insane)
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I've seen The Devil Wears Prada and Bullet for My Valentine's guitar rigs and I know they both use Peavey heads and an NS-2, but I've also seen an ISP in there before the amp as well.
I might be lucky and not need one if i keep the gain down but i have a feeling these tube amps are f**king loud and I'll need to put it back on the board haha
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Its not a matter of gain, there will always be excess noise on a high gain amplifier, the TS adds crazy noise on any setting, and a gate does alter the sound of the amp, it makes the notes stop faster when palm muting/chugging, which is pretty much essential for most "modern metal" and they also get rid of all the noise so when you are not playing there is no annoying screeching. I would rather use the NS-2 which people claim to "suck tone" than have a shitety flubby sounding 6505.
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Would you put it in the front end of the amp in a pedalboard chain or in the FX loop?
I was thinking FX loop but cos i'm using a tubescreamer it'll generate noise in the front end as well, so i don't know where to put it.
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if the gate is in the loop and is set up well you will have absolutely no noise when not playing as it effectively mutes anything that would normally make it to the poweramp.
Personally I dont use gates because i dont like the wau they butcher the tone. I have an amp that has a very low noise floor and practice good muting on stos etc.
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Don't own one, but played a few before. A noisegate is a must when you're using any of the 6505 series, as far as I know when you use the Noisegate going into the fx loop of the head it's supposed to reduce the overall hiss and noise the amp gives you (you won't be able to silence your pedals at the same though I think). The 6534+ head has an internal noisegate if memory serves me right. Agent Orange will surely chime in and give you his experience, he owns said head.
I do indeed own a 6534+
I have A/B'ed it with a 5150 II, which is what the 6505+ was called before EVH pulled the pin on Peavey. The 6534+ is 'tighter' sounding and has more mid-range cut (i.e., has stronger mids that 'cut' through the mix more). The cleans are also cleaner. The 6505+ might have slightly more bottom end, but the whole series has a little too much bottom end if anything. I tame the bottom end of my 6534+ with a tube screamer (in my case a Maxon OD-9) and most people with the 5150/6505 series amps do the same thing.
I would say that the two amps are very similar in terms of how you operate them, just that the voicing is different due to the 6L6/EL34 difference and some revisions to the preamp in the 6534+ - and both work equally well, it's really just a matter of taste. Both have the same EQ controls and the same footswitch. This is the major difference between them and the 6505, which only has one EQ stack and you use the same settings for rhythm and lead 'channels'. The 6505+ and 6534+ are true two-channel amps
I would like to explode the myth of an internal noise gate in the 6534+ once and for all. There is no such thing. It is as noisy as a 6505+
The fizz comes from the preamp.
I would strongly recommend the ISP Decimator G-String II based on my experience of it. You set it between 11.30 and 12.00
You need a noise suppressor after the preamp, in the loop. I place mine after the MXR 10-band EQ, which is another standard add-on for these amps, but before the flanger, chorus, and delay. I set the delay up with a short time and use it instead of a reverb to thicken the sound a bit. I've always been a bit of hater when it comes to reverb so I don't miss it. If you were to get one I guess you could use a Hall of Fame.
The advantage of the ISP G-String is that it senses when your strings are vibrating and suppresses other noises without cutting off your guitar signal too much (unless you wind it up to 2 o'clock or higher, but then again some people deliberately use that effect). The regular model of the Decimator does not have this feature. Regardless of which Decimator you buy (the G-String costs more) place it in the loop. EQs make a bit of noise so put it after that.
My signal chain is as follows:
Guitar -> Dimebag wah -> Polytune tuner -> G-String guitar in/out -> MXR CAE Boost -> Maxon OD-9 -> EVH phaser -> compressor -> 6534+ preamp -> EQ -> G-String Dec in/out -> EVH flanger -> Wylde chorus -> carbon copy delay -> 6534+ power amp -> Orange PPC412 cabinet (V30s)
The cabinet is getting better as the V30s break in, but I'm still in two minds about the V30s. I might have been better off going for something with Eminence V12s in it, but I think it will be fine once completely broken in
With the signal path you may see pedals there that you don't want to use or don't have (I could do without the compressor for sure) but the order works well.
A have a box with three distortion pedals in it - an EHX Metal Muff, a Mooer Black Secret, and an MXR script reissue Distortion + - and there they stay, off my board. I find them useless with this series of amps. If you want more gain that you are getting from your tube screamer, put a boost in front of it like I have. Usually the gain on the TS is set at zero, with the level dimed. I keep my tone right down, others have it at 12 o'clock.
The boost allows you to set up one level of gain for most of your playing, and then kick in higher gain when you want it for a solo or something. I set up the rhythm channel for clean and/or 'overdriven' rock sounds with either the 'crunch' or tube screamer on. For example if you are playing one of those noisy hammer-on leads that you get on old Celtic Frost records or an early Carcass or Massacre type dive bomb then you might want to kick in the boost
My friend with the 5150 II uses no pedals at all!! He goes for a very scooped sound though. He seems to dime everything except the mids, which he set around 1 on the dial. Works for him. He has the standard Peavey cabinet too. They aren't that worried about that, and I don't think you can hear the fizz over the rest of the band. The fizz is really only annoying when practicing at home by yourself or playing in a studio, and when they go to the studio the engineer uses various tricks to cut it out.
The pedals I'd suggest getting are a tube screamer, a decimator, a delay, and a 10-band EQ. These seem to be the ones that most people feel they use all the time. The others are only for fancy pants stuff or people who suffer from GAS, like myself (and probably most on this forum). That said, when I occasionally play clean I do like experimenting with the MXR Custom Comp and Black Label Chorus, which can give you some really nice sounds on clean, and even clean up your signal a little in terms of the compressor. If you don't play cleans I wouldn't worry about those. By 'fancy pants stuff' I mainly mean the two EVH pedals (phaser and flanger), although there are some simple songs (such as some of The Exploited songs) which actually use such effects to spice up otherwise simple and repetitive riffs.
I should add in response to Effigy's comment above that my Maxon OD-9 does not make the kind of noise that he seems to be suggesting the Ibanez TS-9 makes. I find the amount of noise to be the same regardless of whether the OD-9 is engaged or not. I believe though that some small changes to the circuitry and switching have been made to the OD-9 since the '80s (when they were sold as Ibanez TS-9s).
The noise seems to come from the gain stages in the preamp.
I would recommend though placing the tuner before the G-String if you get one. With it afterwards I was still getting odd 'wash' noises through the amp when I tuned. I moved it around and the sound disappeared.
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The noise seems to come from the gain stages in the preamp.
The noise comes from a really poor pcb layout more than anything. But yes the gain stages do create noise. This is standard in any amp.
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My point was more that the noise reduction needs to be after the preamp to be effective. I'm not sure exactly what causes it in the preamp, but it is much more noticeable on the lead channel, and on the rhythm channel if the crunch is engaged and/or the preamp gain wound up.
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I do and I dont, respectively. Though I have a decimator. I just never bother.
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Thanks for the info Agent! Very help and insightful!
Are you suggesting I have 2 noise suppressors then in my setup?! e.g. an NS-2 in the loop and an ISP decimator in the front end?
My set up is very simple. I aim to use the channel switch to go from a clean/crunch sound to lead, then kick on the tubescreamer whenever i'm on the dirty channel. Other pedals are a wireless receiver and a boss tuner.
This is my board:
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/26fe355a8ed773935dd465eb77452d5e/tumblr_mouml4ohEz1r3y9vto1_500.jpg)
Obviously when i upgrade the amp the footswitch will be different. Where will the NS-2 or ISP decimator go?
If only using it in the FX loop i could just put the pedal at the back of the amp with 2 leads going into send/return?
Don't want all these extra cables kicking around my feet!
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The G-String goes out front AND in the loop. The circuit for the front end only senses when there is a signal coming from the guitar, and tells the noise reduction circuit (the part in the loop) about it. It has four jacks.
GUITAR IN
GUITAR OUT (these are the two you use after the tuner)
DEC IN
DEC OUT (these are the two you use in the beginning of the loop, after the EQ pedal if you have one)
The G-String is the unit on the left in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwqQ8cg4yko (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwqQ8cg4yko)
I have a Pedaltrain which makes wiring it all a little neater as stuff is routed underneath, including the power supply, but it cost me a fair bit of coin. I hear though that you can make something similar out of stuff from IKEA (wooden though)
You will need a 9V power supply to run a Decimator of either type. 9V batteries won't cut it
This video gives a better idea of the jacks. It has the older version of the G-String but they are almost the same as the new one. He should have the overdrive after the pedal though. Wah and tuner before pedal is okay, but you want as much of your unaffected guitar signal as possible going into the 'Guitar In'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WvM-SY9c98 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WvM-SY9c98)
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Right, so I'd put it after my tubescreamer, with a patch cable going into the DEC IN?
Then another 2 leads going from send-return in the amp?
Think that's how i do it?
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Right, so I'd put it after my tubescreamer, with a patch cable going into the DEC IN?
Then another 2 leads going from send-return in the amp?
Think that's how i do it?
As I said above, I have the tube screamer after the Guitar Out. Not sure why the guy in the video has it first. If you have a pedal tuner put that between your guitar and the ISP. You can run a wah (if you have one) before or after, it doesn't really matter. But the gain stages should be between the two circuits of the ISP.
Despite some of the misinformation in the comments section of that video (clearly written by people who haven't owned one) there is no gate in the front end section of the pedal. It is only a circuit that senses when you are playing and tells the other circuit what to cut.
Guitar -> tuner -> G-String guitar in/out -> FRONT END PEDALS LIKE TUBE SCREAMERS -> amp input preamp loop send -> G-String DEC in/out -> MODULATION AND TIME-BASED EFFECTS -> loop return
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Well isn't that to combat noise coming from the guitar? I don't really have much noise from my guitar, its the amp noise i'm worried about, and of course kicking on extra overdrives will make it even more noisy.
So surely the ISP should be after the tubescreamer?
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See the edit to my previous post.
GUITAR OUT -> OVERDRIVE/DISTORTION -> PREAMP -> DEC IN
The Guitar In/Out stage provides no noise reduction.
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Yeah just seen the edit, i've seen the early version ISP demo video on youtube before, i'll probably get the similar model to the one he's using.
when you say "PREAMP" do you mean the send on the FX loop?
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I mean the preamp as the part between the amp input and the effects loop send. The effects loop return goes to the power amp.
I struggled setting up the G-String but nutted it out with the help of people here.
https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=30383.0
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So the way you've set it up,
(http://i40.tinypic.com/aep0fc.jpg)
the cable going into the input of the tubescreamer runs into the send of the ISP? I can't see what the input is from the photo.
Where's the blue-ish cable running to from the IN of the ISP? Unless its the send of course..
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Looking at that photo the two cables going up are the effects loop ones. On the left is the DEC OUT going back to the loop return; on the right is the DEC IN coming from the loop send. I still use this same basic setup, although I have added a wah before the tuner and a few other pedals in the front end and in the loop.
My board looks like this now:
(http://i.imgur.com/EG3erby.jpg)
I should get the flanger on Monday or Tuesday in the mail - it will be the first pedal after the DEC OUT. Currently the chorus pedal is the first after that, but flangers and phasers generally go before chorus. I actually have my phaser in the front end after my screamer, but it will work pretty much anywhere. Flangers though work better in the loop after the noise reduction.
Note how I have placed the Peavey footswitch on the board (I removed the rubber feet and added velcro to the back). This was done to protect the cable, which my friend with the 5150 II has had a lot of trouble with because someone (probably their vocalist) stepped on it. Where I have placed it the cable connector is very protected. They are expensive to replace.
There is a T-Rex Fuel Tank Chameleon power supply mounted under the top left corner.
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Right i see now, so with my board, the only thing i'd need to switch is put the ISP (if i get one) after the TU-2, so with a patch cable going into the IN of the ISP, before going into the Tubescreamer which will run into the front of the amp. Then run 2 cables into send/return of the amp?
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Right i see now, so with my board, the only thing i'd need to switch is put the ISP (if i get one) after the TU-2, so with a patch cable going into the IN of the ISP, before going into the Tubescreamer which will run into the front of the amp. Then run 2 cables into send/return of the amp?
That's basically right, if you are using the G-String version of the Decimator.
If you are using the regular one you run it in the same spot in the loop, but without the 'Guitar In/Out' circuit in the front end after your tuner. As I said above what that does is it tells the other circuit when you there is a signal coming from the guitar.
Whatever you place ahead of the 'GUITAR IN' it will basically treat like it is the raw signal from your guitar. When my tuner is off it is pure bypass so it only sees the guitar and the wah. The only reason I put the wah first was ease of routing cables. The only problem I've ever had with that was the other day when a friend had been playing my guitar and I didn't realize that he left the wah on. I couldn't get the tuner to work until I switched the wah off again, it kept giving me strange readings. When I had the tuner after the GUITAR OUT jack I got a weird noise when I was tuning. Where I have it now is the best
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Yeah, why is the newer version of the Decimator called the "G string"? And i've noticed compared to the previous model there's 3 inputs now on the G String and just an in/out on the previous one. The G string will be easier cos its less cables? Although i could put the Original version at the back of the amp with patch cables running from send/return?
Ahead of the "guitar in" will be my tuner. TU-2's are true bypass right?
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The G-String has two circuits, each with an in and out. Hence the four cables.
The regular Decimator just has an IN and an OUT. These are equivalent to the DEC IN and DEC OUT on the G-String.
I think I've been over this ... it works differently from an NS-2.
The front end circuit is only to sense when a signal is coming from the guitar. The big problem with noise suppressors is them clamping down on sounds you actually want to hear, and the extra circuit in the G-String is a way to overcome that.
The main differences between the first generation and the 'II' models (of both types, Decimator and Decimator G-String) is a linking facility for joining more than one pedal together. I've not needed this. I find that the G-String set up properly is sufficient to kill most noise. I also don't have the threshold as high as the guy in that video. You put it just above where it cleans up the 'noise floor' - on this type of amp that's between 11 and 12 o'clock on the dial. You will hear it.
Why ISP called it a G-String I don't know ... I'm guessing it is because it senses the vibration of the guitar string ... I think they were trying to come up with something 'sexy' but maybe it just got up the designer's ass trying to figure it all out ;)
http://www.isptechnologies.com/portfolio/decimator-ii-g-string-pedal/ (http://www.isptechnologies.com/portfolio/decimator-ii-g-string-pedal/)
The G String Pedal tracks the signal directly from the guitar, which allows you to switch from clean to high gain without ever changing the threshold setting.
People love it because it's a 'set-and-forget' unit
The Decimator™ II G String has 4 ¼ inch jacks. Connect the guitar directly to the Guitar IN. Connect the Guitar OUT to the input of the amplifier. Connect the DEC IN to the loop send and DEC OUT to the loop return. For best performance place all gain pedals in front of the amplifier and DEC IN. You can put Delay and Reverb effects pedals after the Decimator™ II G String and before the loop return to avoid cutting off reverb and delay tails.
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4 cables? I can only see 3 inputs on the G string decimator?
Send/Return and then a patch cable going into the Tubescreamer is how i understood i'd need to have it set up?
When i go try this 6505+ i'm taking both my tubescreamer and NS-2 and try to figure out how to eliminate the noise, if i get any from the pre-amp. Then if i end up buying the amp (which is likely) i'll consider getting the ISP G-string.
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There are two inputs and two outputs.
The output to the effects loop (marked DEC OUT) is on the left of the pedal (looking down as you are about to step on it) by itself. On the right side you have the DEC IN (this is the one closest to you), then the GUITAR IN in the middle and the GUITAR OUT at the top on the right side. If you look at the photo of my set up you will see a 90 degree connector on the left of my Polytune. This is the cable that ends in a straight connector going into the right of the ISP. That is the GUITAR IN jack. The jack above that is the GUITAR OUT, which I have running from there to my MXR CAE Boost/Linedriver pedal with a 2" cable. The DEC IN has a cable running to it under the EQ pedal, coming from the output on the EQ (the left top of that pedal). The DEC OUT on the left of the ISP has a cable running from there to the MXR Black Label Chorus. When I get the EVH Flanger (I suspect that will arrive tomorrow) it will go to that instead.
It's all pretty simple in practice. If you think the G-String will work for you I'd suggest buying it, and if you have any problems just look over these responses again. I think I've repeated myself a fair bit.
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Yeah i was going by your first photo of the set up which had 3 cables going into, maybe the angles weren't good for me to see the side of the pedal.
Sorry to be a bit slow and stupid its just i haven't used a noisegate this way before so i'm going to get my hands on one and try to follow what you said, i know you're trying to help and feel like you've had to say the same stuff a few times!!
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The only real stumbling block for most people is the price.
The best price on ebay is US $226.35.
There are two sellers on there at the moment with that price, including the guy I have dealt with the most, named Mad Ape. Stuff always seems to get here.
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I'm selling my old head so i'd be able to get the cash together for an ISP. Don't the US have high shipping rates? Although a lot of my favourite bands are American and i have to get merch from there, this is for t-shirts however, so not much.
And i do wish the input on the 6505+ head was on the RIGHT side of the amp when you look at it face on, makes plugging in cables a bit neater since i usually play on stage LEFT for the band!
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I'm selling my old head so i'd be able to get the cash together for an ISP. Don't the US have high shipping rates?
Actually both sellers are currently offering free international shipping if First Class Mail is okay. They charge more for express options. When I get stuff from this Mad Ape company it usually takes 2-3 weeks, most of which is getting from Wyoming to Los Angeles or Chicago to get on a plane to Australia. They give you a tracking number
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Thing is i need the stuff before the end of the month, and if it takes over 2 weeks not sure i can wait that long!
And if you weren't aware i'm in the UK!
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Some other sellers are quicker, probably because their business is closer to a major port. Everything takes a while to Australia. The best we can manage from the UK is ten days
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Hmm, well its the first Monday in November tomorrow, so if it takes 3 weeks max so if i order tomorrow i SHOULD theoretically get it on the week i need it, (the shows are on 29th and 30th of this month).
Alternatively if it doesn't arrive in time i still have my NS-2 i could use just for these shows, provided i connect it up properly, lol.