Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Yellowjacket on December 24, 2013, 09:06:59 AM
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So, here's the deal. The Rebel Yells were a fantastic upgrade from the Burstbucker Pros that came stock and they are great overall. The problem is not with the pickups, but with the guitar itself. Gibson needs to use all their mahogany so the production instruments are weight relieved i.e. swiss cheese instruments. With light mahogany like what comes in the custom shop instruments, the tonal response is even and balanced between pickups but with the extremely dense / heavy wood, the neck pickup is, by default, a ball of mud while the bridge one is thin and trebly.
The Rebel Yells corrected the problem with the stock pickups somewhat but I like to do a lot of low / medium gain playing (Think more classic rock and lighter stuff) in addition to metal. I love to switch between neck and bridge and it sucks when the tone goes from ideal / a bit bassy to thin. I have the neck pickup set quite far from the strings (Pole pieces out) and the bridge pickup is really close (Pole pieces down), trying to get as phat a tone as I can from the bridge and as light / bright as I can from the neck.
To describe my style, I use the neck for dynamic tones going from clean / slight breakup to gnarly rhythm stuff as well as high gain soloing. I generally use the bridge for heavier / more focused rhythm tones. I like the classically voiced marshall crunch as well as a more modern metal rhythm. (Mesa Boogie Electra Dyne / Dual Rectifier)
What I like about the Rebel Yells: I like the wide, clear, and thick crunch tone on the bridge pickup as well as the low / medium gain tones with the neck. The neck has a fantastic and very expressive lead tone where the harmonics just jump out like crazy. The wide pick attack adds a lot of definition and expression to my playing.
I'm wondering if going with a Riff Raff / Emerald in the neck and a Nailbomb in the bridge would help compensate for the dodgy guitar construction? Maybe even sticking with a Rebel Yell in the neck and putting a Nailbomb in the Bridge would suffice? As much as I like my lester, I'm frustrated by this obvious tonal imbalance inherent in the instrument design. The idea here is to not depart terribly far from the voice of the Rebel Yells but to get deeper lows and slightly more output in the bridge as well as something with less bass in the neck, but with the same lively harmonics. I want to be able to switch between pickups and not have to re-EQ the amp to compensate for the tonal shift that happens in the bass.
The Rebel Yells are great pickups and I think they'd work exceptionally well in a custom shop lester or something with higher quality tonewoods. I'm just trying to work with a less than stellar piece of wood here. The guitar plays great but it's a shame that the electronics have to compensate for corners cut on the part of Gibson.
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Maybe you can correct things with different potvalues and capacitors. If not you could balance things with a Black Dog-bridge and RiffRaff-neck.
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Uggh. I really think it's the amplifier / cab which are enhancing the low end balance issues. Mesa amps have this extended low range which is really cool except that it can become so terribly problematic. To be perfectly clear I simply want a bit less bottom from the neck pickup and a bit more bottom from the bridge pickup. Also, less output from the neck and more output from the bridge is good.
I was recommended a Riff Raff in the neck by the guys at BKP and a Nailbomb in the bridge. I can't help but think that the slightly phatter lows and hotter output of a Nailbomb would suit my playing style well. I'm trying to tune the guitar to work well with a Mesa Boogie Electra Dyne and a thicker and phatter bridge pickup works very well with the extremely dynamic nature of this amplifier.
The only frustration here is that the Rebel Yells work almost perfectly with my Dual Rectifier. Unfortunately, the Electra Dyne is the amp I use 90% of the time so I have to figure something out.
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Dude, if you are interested in moving the Rebel Yell on, i am interested.
I might like to change my Black Dog bridge and Riff Raff neck for the RY someday.
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I would probably just try an A-bomb in the bridge at first, leaving the RY in the neck. You might find that sorts out your issue. The A-bomb is a close relative of the RY bridge, just its fatter, hairier, and more uncouth cousin
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Yes, this is what I was thinking too. It just needs a very minor adjustment.
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Dude, if you are interested in moving the Rebel Yell on, i am interested.
I might like to change my Black Dog bridge and Riff Raff neck for the RY someday.
Yes, I'll totally keep this in mind. So far I'm thinking to just swap the bridge pickup for a slightly phatter sound. I'm REALLY digging the neck Rebel Yell still. It's a hard decision though since it isn't a particularly large problem. Basically, the bridge pickup isn't quite ideal for my Electra Dyne but it absolutely slays 100% in the Recto. The A-Bomb seems like a good candidate since it would still work in a Recto but would also phatten up the crunch in the Electra Dyne.
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Just to be sure here, have you exausted the height adjustment? I am just asking cause the RY is the most sensitive of all PUs I have ever seen in those terms. I always say "If you love it now, great. Tweak the height and chances are high it will get a lot better still." So if you have not done that yet, putting it closer to the strings might just do enough if you really are just talking about smaller changes here.
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Ya, this is the problem. Way low neck pickup, especially on the 'bass' side and a bridge pickup probably as far up as it will go. It's almost there which is the bit that really bugs me. They're absolutely fantastic pickups and I really appreciate the clarity, especially under extreme gain situations. They also clean up so well which allows for many many shades of tone!!
As I have stated, it's the wood that's the problem, not the pickups. It's a weight relieved Gibson Les Paul which means it has holes drilled into the super dense mahogany to make the instrument lighter and less damaging to backs and necks. For some reason, the result is a ball of mud neck pickup and a thin bridge pickup. (I know a guy who owns a Custom Shop R8 Standard and he said that even with the stock pickups, the instrument has a balanced sound with a huge low end lunk to the sound as well as a growling midrange clarity. While pickups matter, wood also matters.
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Wood and construction and material more generally make a HUGE difference, including as to how your pickup will sound. I hated my A-Bomb in my SG and adjusted it in a really crazy way in a desperate attempt to get rid of the mid honk. Last week I installed the same pickup in my Explorer, set it to a sensible height and I'm loving it
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I agree 100%
It is always a huge cr@p shoot trying to find what pickup just properly meshes with a guitar. My Godin LG has a Custom Custom bridge and an Alnico II Pro neck and it is really a 95% proper match. I'd love something a bit brighter with more snot in the neck as well as something a bit clearer and brighter (but equally thick) in the bridge but I'm scared to switch things because it's such a great match already. I put a PRS HFS in the bridge of that guitar once and it was an absolute disaster.
The Rebel Yells are really 90% the way there in the Les Paul and the creative pickup adjustment gets me even closer. It's a situation where I'm considering experimenting with pickups to try and compensate for the poor construction. If I can find a balance, it will be a very useable guitar. I am not keen on spending $5,000 to get an instrument that works.
Furthermore, the Rebel Yell bridge is perfect for the Dual Rectifier while the Rebel Yell neck is perfect for the Electra Dyne. So, what can I do? =-/
I think I'm going to play around with a mic and see how things stack up with a recording. I suspect the ported oversized 1 x 12 cab may be amplifying these inconsistencies significantly.
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If your pickup adjustment is that drastic in search of more bass I would simply order an alnico Nailbomb and try that. It will probably sound a little more 'hairy' - and certainly would at the height you have the RY set at - but I think that at the proper height it would be less noticeable. The reason why I suggest this pickup is that it is closely related to the RY and should give a meatier version of the sound your already have
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Hmm.
I wonder about pickup covers. My Rebel Yells have the chrome etched ray gun design. It would be weird to have one pickup like that and one which is unmatched. So far, the best option seems to be to get a nailbomb for the bridge which would give me that bit more push / phatness on the bridge pickup. The Rebel Yell bridge pickup is set pretty high and it definitely has plenty of hair. The bass side of the neck pickup is pretty much flush with the pickup ring while the treble side is about 1 - 2 mm above the ring. The bridge pickup is about 1.5mm from the strings on the treble side and about 2mm from the strings on the bass side... I'd say that this is a pretty extreme adjustment.
If cash was not a problem at all, I'd have to say that the Riff Raff / Nailbomb combo would probably get me closer. Of course, the Rebel Yell neck is awesome so just swapping one pickup would be ideal. Perhaps I'd have have to get a nickel cover on the nailbomb and swap it with the Rebel Yell cover so that they'd still be matching? We'll see, I'm still going to try micing things up. Again, the cab may be accentuating these differences and if I can't hear them mic'd then they aren't such a huge deal.
I think what I'm going through right now is just a case of growing pains as a guitarist. When I got the Rebel Yells, I had my Dual Rectifier and they were a HUGE improvement over the stock pickups, ESPECIALLY since they sound so perfect with that amp. I absolutely love the rhythm tone of the Rebel Yell with that amp. The surgically tight bass of the pickup really tightens and reigns in the absolutely massive low end inherent to that amplifier.
When I switched to the Electra Dyne, that's when I noticed that a meatier and thicker bridge pickup would push the amp more, particuarly on the Vintage Lo mode, which is where I spend 80 - 90% of my time playing live. I rarely, if ever, shift onto vintage hi, and only usually for searing solos. The dynamic nature of the crunch tones is really quite perfect on Vintage Lo and I particularly enjoy the hairy clean to wicked and articulate crunch on the neck pickup. I just wish that the bridge pickup was thicker, and beefier. The accentuated mids and high mids almost sound honky with the Electra Dyne, ESPECIALLY at low volumes. Once I crank it it isn't such a problem except that the low end starts to really get huge and needs to be tempered. It's a really neat / musical amp but it's a bit odd in some ways as well. That being said, beside the warts, it's the most fun / responsive amp I've ever owned / played.
It's also those accentuated mids and high mids that make that pickup so perfect for the recto. The Rebel Yell contributes the very frequencies that a Recto needs to really shine. So, it's a tradeoff. The Godin LG works very well for that phatter and beefier crunch tone on the Electra DYne but it sounds not so stellar with the Recto. The LP is the other way but it is my number one guitar and the Electra DYne is my number one amp. I guess the important thing here is to find the middle ground.
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unless your gibson is a sleeper Skrull agent like yourself (ha! I'm reading the Secret Invasion, so I know it, Skrull! 8)), I don't see any relation with the mahogany density with what you're not liking about it
it's just normal that a les paul pickup sounds completely different from the bridge, espacially in your situation, considering the rebel yell bridge and neck models have completely different specs
maybe the pickups just didn't match your tastes for this particular guitar
if you want more push and thickness without switching to ceramics, there's the nailbomb and the holy diver
I'm not sure a riff raff on the neck will fix your problems... maybe a neck holy diver
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To me, moving to the A-Bomb bridge makes a lot of sense as it has a lot in common with the Rebel Yell but is a bit darker, fatter and more aggressive. By the same token, I honestly feel like the Holydiver neck might be an equally good solution because the Cold Sweat, Rebel Yell and Holydiver necks are all closely related but the Cold Sweat is the darkest and most modern while the Holydiver is the brightest and most vintage. You clearly like the Rebel Yell neck but want it a bit brighter so the Holydiver is the obvious solution. There you go: A-Bomb bridge and Holydiver neck :D
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unless your gibson is a sleeper Skrull agent like yourself (ha! I'm reading the Secret Invasion, so I know it, Skrull! 8)), I don't see any relation with the mahogany density with what you're not liking about it
it's just normal that a les paul pickup sounds completely different from the bridge, espacially in your situation, considering the rebel yell bridge and neck models have completely different specs
maybe the pickups just didn't match your tastes for this particular guitar
if you want more push and thickness without switching to ceramics, there's the nailbomb and the holy diver
I'm not sure a riff raff on the neck will fix your problems... maybe a neck holy diver
HA! Is it bad that I had to google 'skrulls'? 8)
Well, I find it bizarre that certain models of Les Pauls all have different tonal characteristics depending on how they are constructed (Chambered vs Solid Body heavy vs Solid Body Light vs Weight Relieved) but that is neither here nor there. Regardless of the cause, the end result is that the pickups aren't quite doing what I want them to do. My playing style has evolved and I have acquired a new #1 amp so I am trying to adjust my pickups to better accommodate how I approach the guitar as a player. My needs are to be able to switch between the neck and bridge pickup to go from open, phat, warm, and articulate --WITHOUT being boomy-- to thick, crunchy, focused, and generally pissed off. The bridge Rebel Yell is just a bit too thin with not quite the output I need while I'm perfectly happy with the neck pickup and really LOVE it. The problem is that as I try and turn up the gain / bass, the bridge pickup phattens up but then the neck pickup gets muddy and boomy. A thicker, slightly deeper, and more pissed off bridge pickup means I can back off the gain and bass slightly which will remove the booming from the neck pickup.
(The only thing that makes me sad is that the Rebel Yell is absolutely mind blowingly good with my Recto. If I was to tailor this guitar specifically for that amp, I'd swap the neck pickup and leave the bridge as is. Judging from some Roadster / Nailbomb clips, I won't be losing any ground at all from the switch)
To me, moving to the A-Bomb bridge makes a lot of sense as it has a lot in common with the Rebel Yell but is a bit darker, fatter and more aggressive. By the same token, I honestly feel like the Holydiver neck might be an equally good solution because the Cold Sweat, Rebel Yell and Holydiver necks are all closely related but the Cold Sweat is the darkest and most modern while the Holydiver is the brightest and most vintage. You clearly like the Rebel Yell neck but want it a bit brighter so the Holydiver is the obvious solution. There you go: A-Bomb bridge and Holydiver neck :D
I shot Ben an email explaining that I love the core voice of the Rebel Yells but that I want to tweak the sound slightly. He recommended the Black Dog in the neck and the Nailbomb in the bridge. Listening to sound clips, I think he's right. The Black Dog has that slightly more breathy / airy low end that I'm going for. I emailed him asking if I could get the custom chrome cover / ray gun etch :shock: cover on a nailbomb to match the neck pickup. I'll either just swap that one pickup (which would honestly be enough) or I can swap both and get the Black Dog / Nailbomb in open coil / zebra for a new look. Either way, I'll have to flip the Rebel Yells to offset the cost. I still have the unfilled warranty card as well as the box and candy so it shouldn't be such an issue to flip them for a reasonable price. If I held onto them, the wife would think this to be a prohibitively expensive swap, and this would be BEFORE I looked for more wood for the Rebel Yells. **GRIN**
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The warranty card isn't something you complete and send in. The warranty is recorded with the purchase, so that the original purchaser is the only person who can claim the warranty.
I know this because I asked Ben about the warranty on the pickups I purchased on my friend's behalf for this Les Paul and he told me that if he has any issues with the pickups that I would be the one who has to send them back. As far as BKP is concerned they are my pickups, not his.
The card states the terms of the warranty and includes handwritten test results on the output
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This is good to know. It's a shame they don't offer a transferable warranty like Mesa does but at least I won't offer incorrect information should I have to flip pickups.
They only offer the ray gun :shock: etch for Rebel Yells so I'd be stuck potentially swapping a pickup cover to have my pickups match. We'll see what I decide to do, I'm not quite sure yet...
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Get the Nailbomb etch on the bridge ;)
a bit of mix and match
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Maybe the problem is the guitar...have you tried a nonrelieved LP?
I've gone through a few before I found my current set up. I've got a 94 standard with stormy mondays and a 92 standard with mules. I get a great balanced sound through all switch positions with both guitars. Something about early 90s LPs just works for me. Just my two cents anyhow....
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Yes, it is a combination of the guitar and the amps I use it with. But the guitar has a good overall tone, even when unplugged, and it plays really well so I'm ok with taking a small financial hit to even it out a bit more. It's 90% the way there with some collective pickup setup so I know that a small further adjustment will get the desired effect.
As for pickups, I think the phatter tone and the higher output of the Nailbomb would be a welcomed change. I'm still really on the fence and seriously considering the Black Dog / Nailbomb combo in open coils / zebra. A new look ^___^
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Anyone have any experience with the C-bomb vs the A-Bombs? How about the Holy Diver bridge pickup? I wonder how the HD would match with a Rebel Yell neck? Keep in mind I want something a bit phatter and thicker than a Rebel Yell bridge, but with a similar voice overall.
I'm just trying to figure out all my options.
Also, what pickup cover with this guitar? This is pre-BKP picture and I still have all the nickel hardware.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/TraumatizedRat/HPIM1231.jpg)
I'm thinking Tyger with black screws. I thought about Zebra but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of covers with some sort of funky variation. Want to keep the classic look with a twist!
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I think something like reverse zebras would look great.
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Ya, I was considering a reverse zebra as an option but I also think Tyger covers with black screws would look really awesome in a somewhat subtle sort of way. It's like saying this guitar is classic but it's turbo charged!! The Ray Guns :shock: are super cool but they only put them on Rebel Yells =-(
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The 'gashes' on the zebra covers will run perpendicular to the flame on the guitar top, but don't mind me, I'm too perfectionist ;)
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No, I think you have a point.
You don't want the equivalent of striped pants with a plaid shirt. Brushed nickel cover with gold screws? Creme Bobbins?
The Reverse Zebra does seem like a good option but I'm a bit at a loss when it comes to choosing something more personal. Most of the stuff here would look far better in a super strat. Has anyone done something more adventurous with a classic LP finish?
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My LP is not a million miles away from yours (flamed top, cherry/amber), I went simply for the Slash look (zebra on the neck, reverse zebra on the bridge).
Brushed nickel is cool, but won't match the tailpiece.
Depends on what you want.
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Here's a hack MSPaint Job to see what tyger covers will look like with a LP Standard in the Clown Burst.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/TraumatizedRat/MULLETGUITAR_zpsf6f7b28b.jpg)
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So I was just recommended THIS for a cover by Ben: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/539623_163567467125173_1876904702_n.jpg
This guy is awesome. That is all.
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Nailbomb bridge is on order. Now we wait.
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My A-Bomb bridge is in. My overall impression is that it is considerably different from the Rebel Yell. The Rebel Yell is smoother and more open sounding with a really aggressive and chirpy pick attack. It really has 'that' vintage rock Les Paul sound going on while simultaneously being higher output. It's a fantastic pickup but definitely equally good to the Nailbomb which just does something different.
High gain / Metal tones are absolutely SICK with the A-Bomb bridge and even the Electra Dyne snarls up nicely now with a nice high end edge to the tone. My pickup height is sensible again and I get a nice tonal balance with the neck pickup. Maybe I've been playing too much high gain stuff lately but the lead feel was kind of like chewing on styrofoam. This could be just because my fingers are confused....
Of course, I now have a new guitar that, for the first time ever, is a 25.5 scale instead of my other that are 24.3/4 scale. To say it is an adjustment is an understatement. I'm planning on getting the new axe all tricked out but during this time, I need to just use the A-Bomb for awhile and determine if I really take to it more than the Rebel Yell. It's not better or worse, just different.
I have a track I played with the Rebel Yell using vintage hi on the Electra Dyne. When I have a moment I'll try re-track that part with the A-Bomb.
So, the verdict so far is that the A-Bomb is better for crunchy and crushing rhythm tones while the Rebel Yell is more fun for lead playing. I'll spend some time and see how things go.
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Yeah, I've never really thought of the A-bomb as a pickup for leads. Usually I switch up to the neck.
How does it sit with the RY neck?
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I need more time with this setup. I like how the tones work together but I've unknowingly built a lot of my technique around the Rebel Yells so I'm going to need some time to figure this out. The rhythm tone is so HUGE!!
I'll also need to adjust the pickup height. It looks like I don't need to have the neck pickup down flush with the pickup ring anymore. Adjustments and time will be the best thing here.
The bridge position leads tend to work best with a high gain amp. It's the vintage high gain / mid gain where it starts to get fussy with the solo tones. I don't really use the bridge pickup for lead playing but more for tearing solos. I miss the chirpy harmonics / crazy pick attack of the Rebel Yells but I LOVE LOVE LOVE the huge defined and crisp rhythm tone of the Nailbombs. It's as big as a house!!
Now I have a set of Juggs on order for my project guitar. WEEE!!!
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Do you have '50s style wiring?
A lot of people find that works well with the A-Bomb.
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Indubitably.
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The Nailbombs work and I think they sound good in the Les Paul. I'm not totally getting that 'magic' feeling of the Rebel Yell bridge but it definitely doesn't sound thin. I tried playing some lead stuff and I can get the chirpy pick tone if I dig in. Grrrrr. The Rebel Yell found it's way into a Godin LG on a whim. That's not going anywhere. Not a chance.
With the Recto, I turned down the gain, brought the bass up, and found some really great rock tones between the Nailbomb bridge and the Rebel Yell neck. I think there is a balance and I have to get used to it. I'm just a little stunned over the other swap. Not sure what I'll do with the neck pickup for that guitar.
The problem I have is that the feet are so long that they are touching the bottom of the pickup cavity (Wood mount) so I wouldn't be able to use a rebel yell neck should I swap the pickups out. OH well, I'll make more noise about this later. I like the Nailbomb and I'll like it more when I get used to it. I'm just finding the more 'metal' sound is clashing a bit with the more 'rock' sound of the Rebel Yell with some amp settings. The colours don't mesh as well as I might like. GRRR, messing around with stuff is baaaad. I don't have $$$s for this with my other build project under way.
I'll update more later.
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You might need to adjust the height of your neck pickup upwards. Did you try that?
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Yes, I totally need to play with the pickup height on both the pickups in the Les Paul. I mean the Nailbomb was just as good as the Rebel Yell. I'm just a little shell shocked at hearing the Godin make the sounds it's making right now. It's seriously ludicrous.
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Much better today with some space. I didn't guitar jump, amp jump, or style jump. I just did some good light / poppy / classic rock / blues / crunch rhythm stuff. Gibson + Electra Dyne. I was really enjoying the added beef from the Nailbomb with this amp and this is my primary tone combo anyhow. I think the Rebel Yell neck and Nailbomb bridge work well and they balance each other out nicely. It works well! Felt good to play today which is a good start. I'm thinking I'm going to keep the Nailbomb in the bridge and I like the Rebel Yell in the neck. It's just the non-matchy matchy covers that bugs me. I REALLY like the brushed nickel cover with the BKP etch and black screws. I'll have to get another for the neck 'soon' tehe.