Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: El Schmucko on March 14, 2006, 02:04:12 PM
-
According to Bill Lawrence there is no particular sound change using scatterwinding. He says itīs just a sales argument.
Is this entirely true?
-
Whatever the pros and cons for scatterwinding at the end of the day it comes down to what the pickup sounds like. Nearly everybody on this forum has chosen BKP pickups in preference to Seymour Duncan, DiMarzio, Bill Lawrence etc.etc because they prefer the sound of them compared to other makes. BKP say that this sound is achieved because of scatterwinding, choice of wire, magnets etc. Whatever Bill Lawrence says will not change the fact that a lot of people think BKPs are better than most of the alternatives.
Also isn't Bill Lawrence stating "there is no particular sound change using scatterewinding" a sales arguement in itself as he presumably does not scatterwind his pickups?
-
Hey, hey, Iīm not saying I donīt think BKPīs sound great. Itīs just you can never be sure about anything anymore. Just wanted some answers...
-
^yer fair enough mate, but like tellboy says, regardless of whether scatterwinding makes a sound difference or not a lot of people still prefer BKP's....
cant actually help you though mate- dunno whether it makes a difference or not.... all i know is that something about BKP's makes a sound difference and thats all i need to know.... :D
-
Hi,
Good question! Bill is pretty outspoken but plenty of people disagree with him!
The one thing scatter winding does do is break up the wind pattern and lower capacitance as the wires are no longer running parallel to each other. Capacitance effects the tone by rolling off high end, same problem you get with long guitar cables. So there IS a tonal difference, more harmonics.
Downside is that no two humbuckers can ever be identical, having said that BKP scatterwound pickups are pretty close, that's just because of close tolerance and accuracy!
As the other guys have said, scatter winding is only part of the process, an important part granted but there's more to a pickup than the way it's wound.
Don't forget that a big part of the early PAF sound was down to the hand winding which naturally produces scatter. Leo Fender also new the benefits as he resisted the move to automated winding machines!
the biggest problem is that scatter winding takes a fair degree of skill, serious hand strength and lots patience. It's not a way to mass produce pickups or get the biggest profit margin
:wink:
-
I don't know anything about winding pickups, but I can tell you that I've found that the two manufacturers who do scatterwind that I've come across make the best sounding pickups by a mile, compared with the guys who don't scatterwind. I can't say how much of this is due to scatterwinding, but I know the pickups sound so much better they're in a class of their own.
-
Thanx for the answers. I guess thereīs more than one on this matter :). Ahh, whatever! BKPīs sound great, and after all thatīs all I need to know...
-
According to Bill Lawrence there is no particular sound change using scatterwinding. He says itīs just a sales argument.
Is this entirely true?
Proper Scatterwinding is probably the most important thing we do, it greatly extends the frequency response and harmonic detail. As HJM said this is because it lowers capacitance in the coil.
-
In short ask yourself this question: would we really spend so much longer making our pickups by scatterwinding them if it didn't make a difference?
The answer is in the tone-regardless of the science it sounds better, more musical, more dynamic and far clearer.
Generally the guys running scatterwinding down do so because they can't do it and don't want to expose the fact that they're trying to knock p/ups out as fast as they can regardless of what they sound like.
Here at BKP it's tone first and foremost.
-
Here at BKP it's tone first and foremost.
And what a great tone it is....I can't tell you how many compliments I get from people no matter what amp I plug into...
-
:D For my part i can hear a definate difference between DiMarzio/Duncan/Lawrence/Grande etc & my BK`s to my ears & i admit that i don`t have the best of ears there`s no contest the BK`s sound so much better.......i can only asume that this is due mainly but not soley to the scatterwinding process.
Manufacturers that Don`t scatterwind are hardley going to admit that the scatterwinding process improves sound because noone would by there P/U`s would they ! It`s not in there intreset business wise to admit that there P/U`s aren`t as good as BK`s !!
:D 8)
-
I've found that scatterwound pickups are a lot more open-sounding and clearer - every string can be heard properly in a chord, and especially with my Mule I can really dig in to the strings and get a much dirtier tone than if I sweep gently for example (dynamics).
Take the plunge!
-
well have to say have had 3 bill lawrence pickups....2 were designed for gibson..and put on my gib sg(soon to be replaced by crawlers) and had one...blade like thing can't remember model...............all I can say is..they were noisy, loud but with no real tone or control....I would never, ever go back to his pickups
-
...forgot to say....muddy as well
-
I have 2 Strats- one with Apaches and the other is standard ( but will be changed when funds allow). The Apache bedecked Strat has so much more life to it. It was only after it's upgrading that I found the stock Strat sound was a bit bland- still nice but not in the same league as the other.
-
to me BKP sound like theres more space in the sound scape everything has more room to contain detail, the dynamics are greatly improved.. the entire sound is less compressed and picking detail is far more alive on shredded runs than something mass produced.
and i sat with my strat today with a Seymour Duncan JB, BKP VHII, Peavey Wolfgang EVH Pickup, BKP MM, DiMarzio Evolution and tried them all in the same guitar to decide which pickup i was finally going to use in the bridge of my main axe.
it's got a BKP MM in there now after far too many sets of strings to be cost effective in a testing method.
-
sorry for the late arrival - I just wanted to add my bit. I once had Tim rewind a couple of Fralin single coils for me. There was no difference to the originals apart from the scatter-winding (same wire gauge, same resistance values = no. of windings).
The tonal difference/benefit with the scatter winds astounded me - much more complex and individual tonality. I would have never previously have guessed that there could be such a difference.
As a result I embarked on the BKP route (no more rewinds) and haven't looked back since.
regards
tremblox
-
Don't forget that a big part of the early PAF sound was down to the hand winding which naturally produces scatter. Leo Fender also new the benefits as he resisted the move to automated winding machines!
That's what I was always thinking as the most important proof of the fact that scatterwinding makes a huge difference.
-
HJM wrote:
That's what I was always thinking as the most important proof of the fact that scatterwinding makes a huge difference.
Indeed - this huge difference is one reason why some manufacturer's went with and go for automatic winding machines. This approach removs the variability in the product - in effect one has more control over the final tone of the pickup. You cannot do scatterwinding consistently - all scatterwound pickups sound different, have different sonic "fingerprints". I like it, some don't.
tremblox
-
I quote the Seymour Duncan Custom Shop Website.
"Scatterwinding (Call For Pricing)" - or something similar to that effect.
The point is people in the know, deffinatly know it makes a difference do you think Mr Duncan plays factory made pickups? I bet u anything he winds his own to his exacting specs with that lovely "Seymour Duncan" logo still on the front..
EVH scatterwound his pickups, rewound other peoples pickups to his own specs that man knew his shite.. and plays dumb about it.
It makes a difference. Trust me.
-
bill lawrence is emo
he and his wife are always crying on his website
he's always the victim... deceived by EZ Wajcman (his ex-partner on BL USA), by Fender, by Gibson :lol:
well.. i never played a pickup wound by him, but bill lawrence USA pickups are really nice...
clearest medium high output pickup i ever played, EXCEPT my bare knuckles and duncan screamin demon
kinda thin, but very clear
he is always talking shite about bill lawrence USA, and justifying that his pickups are better cause they are handwound
his wife ("Becky Lawrence") fought a crusade against Bill Lawrence USA (owned by EZ Wajcman since 82/83) for years convincing everyone on internet forums that they were scammed and that BL USA pickups suck
always declaring that Dimebag Darrell was a personal friend and that he used pickups made by himself... until a '93 Dimebag workshop video showed up on youtube, where Darrell says that he bought his pickups from Stewart Macdonald, that was the major Bill Lawrence USA dealer, and then no one heard of Becky Lawrence anymore :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
Hey, hey, Iīm not saying I donīt think BKPīs sound great. Itīs just you can never be sure about anything anymore. Just wanted some answers...
i agree with you when you say that nowadays we can never be sure about anything
people seems to have their own opinions, and they support it as the only true. ahahah thats weird.
NOTE - iīm not bashing any brand.. iīm just matching my personal ideas with el schmuckoīs ones. in a general level
Q:P
-
Bkp sounds Clearer, Totally Airy(not hairy ahahah), and organic.
-
well,i got a C-WP to replace a machine wound Dimebucker. both the same magnet, both high output. the C-WP destroys it, and i'm placing my bets that it is the winding. the Dimebucker is fizzier, weaker, and lacking in TONE.
-
Wheres the $%&#ign CLisp BLOODMOUNTAIN?
ahahah iīll send you to hell if you donīt post them as soon as possible
ahahahahahahahahahaha
Q:P
:twisted: