Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: mia on March 16, 2006, 09:36:01 PM
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For bedroom levels and the ocasional jam in a garage...is there any point in buying a 120W amp head?...i suspect it wouldd just be wayy too loud, but would it be possible at all?
Im thinking of the Ibanez thermion :twisted:
its a valve amp by the way
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thd hotplate (or any other attenuator) would make it possible.
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is this hotplate a permanet thing? What does it do?...sorry, im abit clueless :oops:
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^ yeah.
or if it's really high gain (assuming you want saturated tones), you could probably get away with just turning down the master volume (like i do with my engl).
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is this hotplate a permanet thing? What does it do?...sorry, im abit clueless :oops:
nah, i think you just plug it in between the head and cab.
it converts most of the sound to heat, so you can crank the amp's volume to get powertube overdrive, but at lower volume levels. It'll wear out your tubes as much as cranking the amp, though.
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A power attenuator (such as a HotPlate) is designed to be used between a valve amp (head or combo) and the speakers. It's a passive device (no power supply needed) and works on the basis of using the energy from the amp and then reduces it, lowering the volume from the speakers, kind of like a Master Volume.
Even with an attenuator, you might find that a 120w amp may be a bit too much for home use, as you can't really get the amp's volume high enough to induce power valve distortion, unless of course you don't want it. After owning a 100w+ amp (TSL122) and using it at home, I'd say that going for a 50/60w would be better in the long run, as at the end of the day, there's only something like 3dB between a 50w amp at max volume and a 100w amp at max volume. I run a 50w combo at the moment, and that gets a bit too loud for home use, even with the attenuator! ;)
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Interesting point.
And what would one should do, in case the features he wants are only present in 100W form?
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I guess then you'd have to think about whether you want the apparent benefits of a lower wattage amp, or the features of the 100W. Which amp is it? There might be lower wattage alternatives...
For what it's worth, I run a 100W JCM800 at home through a Hotplate and it works fine. I do sometimes wonder what it's like without attenuation - even with my band I end up attenuating it slightly cos it's a bit loud - but it all works fine for me. Having said that, I don't use a great deal of gain/distortion from the amp, mostly just have it set to a light crunch. I have tried it on ultra-gain settings but got quite a lot of feedback. I don't know if it was 50W that would change anything :?
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Most 100/120w amps are available in 50/60w format these days, product diversification, profit maximisation and all that...
My point here is that running a 50w amp lets you acheive power valve distortion at a more "bearable" level than a 100+w. I have my amp set with gain at about 4, which gives it a bit of crunch, but the volume is at about 8, which puts the power valves into "distorto-zone".
One good thing about larger amps is that they give you a better clean headroom than smaller amps, if that's what you're after, great.
It's just another opinion after all... :)
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I have tried it on ultra-gain settings but got quite a lot of feedback. I don't know if it was 50W that would change anything :?
Nope the 50W version still has plenty of feedback with Ultra-gain...
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For example...
Laney VH100R (more features than GH50L)
H&K Duotone 100W (more features than the Puretone 50w)
Orange Rockverb 50W (more features than the Rocker 30)
THD Flexi 50 (more than the Univalve)
Rivera KHR55...
So basically featurewise i love the VH100R and the Duotone... but powerwise?
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In theory a 100W amp is only twice s loud as a 10W amp
Speaker efficiency can play a big part and not using a 4x12 as well
(as they do shift more air)
My 50W Marshall JCM 800 is way loud but simply lacks the clean headroom of the 100W version
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there's only something like 3dB between a 50w amp at max volume and a 100w amp at max volume.
Yes, but the ear percieves three decibels more as "twice as loud" ;)
Bear in mind that 100w and 50w refers to clean power; these amps put out more than that when the output stage clips. A 100w 1959slp can put out around 150w power. That's why the only difference people really hear when pulling output tubes to make the amp 50w from 100w is that there is an earlier breakup of the tubes.
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well 10db is required for doubling audible volume, and with respect to power you need x10 wattage in order to have a 10db increase.
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For example...
Laney VH100R (more features than GH50L)
H&K Duotone 100W (more features than the Puretone 50w)
Orange Rockverb 50W (more features than the Rocker 30)
THD Flexi 50 (more than the Univalve)
Rivera KHR55...
So basically featurewise i love the VH100R and the Duotone... but powerwise?
if you want the features, you have to go for the more powerful amp, and then try to find a way round it, like an attenuator.
FWIW, the laney vh100r has plenty of pre-amp gain to be played at bedroom levels, IMO. Of course, it'd sound better cranked.
Alternatively, look into an amp with a half-power, or pentode/triode operation. What's your budget, and what tones are you after?
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For example...
Laney VH100R (more features than GH50L)
H&K Duotone 100W (more features than the Puretone 50w)
Orange Rockverb 50W (more features than the Rocker 30)
THD Flexi 50 (more than the Univalve)
Rivera KHR55...
So basically featurewise i love the VH100R and the Duotone... but powerwise?
if you want the features, you have to go for the more powerful amp, and then try to find a way round it, like an attenuator.
FWIW, the laney vh100r has plenty of pre-amp gain to be played at bedroom levels, IMO. Of course, it'd sound better cranked.
Alternatively, look into an amp with a half-power, or pentode/triode operation. What's your budget, and what tones are you after?
I already have a THD hotplate 8ohm, so basically any amp that will work well with the Hotplate at high attenuation, will work for me. But basically i need a very good MV and an amp design that doesnt require the power section at full tilt in order to work well.
For example, the Rivera KHR55 has 1/2 power, pentode/triode, but it is unavailable in the UK, but can be had in Europe for 1350GBP.
The THD Flexi 50, has a 50-20W thingy going on, but i ll struggle to find it for 1100GBP.
Aiken amps dont exist here...
Laney which sounds like a good call,... has the GH50L/VH100R but i dont know the quality of the MV in these amps and how well they would behave with a Hotplate. Same with Oranger Rockverb series or H&K Duotone .
In short, it is quite impossible for me to try these amps WITH my hotplate hence i am looking for advice (probably i ll post a thread when the time comes).
The tones i am looking for are classic 60s and 70s hard rock mainly. Bias towards Zeppelin, Sabbath, Who, Iron Butterfly, Cream, Jethro Tull and for modern stuff, GnR and Tool.
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Sounds like you want a Marshall 8)
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or an engl....
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in my experience (i.e. i tried them in the shops at low volumes) both the laney and orange rockerverb worked very well at low volumes.
Engl would be awesome too. I have one (savage se), and as far as i'm concerned, i don't even need an attenuator. It's 100/120w (unsure, it says one on the back, and the other in the manual, lol) half stack, in my parents' family room (they're cool, lol).
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ok so i know nothing about amps but isnt the engl slightly more gainy than the others? therefore it breaks up quicker and therefore = slightly better at lower volumes?????
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you haven't tried a high gain amp until you've tried a powerball, se, or to a slightly lesser extent (but still heavy as hell) the savage or screamer.
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So basically...
For Engl heads and for Laney heads i shouldnt really care about wattage since they deliver at low volumes as well?
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i think so.... but maybe engl's a bit more than laneys
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i think so.... but maybe engl's a bit more than laneys
But arent Engls too metal oriented when i want to play blues and hard rock?
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yer true..... the laneys may be better for your styles.... but in general, (i THINK) the engls will sound marginally better at low volumes because of the more gain on offer....
on the laney site it tells you which amps are for which styles specifically and the TT's are their recommendations for blues and stuff.... if you havent checked it out (the laney site) the little cheesey 'ampicons' or something are actually quite helpful...
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yer true..... the laneys may be better for your styles.... but in general, (i THINK) the engls will sound marginally better at low volumes because of the more gain on offer....
on the laney site it tells you which amps are for which styles specifically and the TT's are their recommendations for blues and stuff.... if you havent checked it out (the laney site) the little cheesey 'ampicons' or something are actually quite helpful...
You could probably just use a booster pedal to get that extra gain at low volumes. I've never played a laney though..
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So basically...
For Engl heads and for Laney heads i shouldnt really care about wattage since they deliver at low volumes as well?
Kind of.
But cranking them sounds even better, so it's not as simple as that.
What's your budget, and what exact tones do you want? It's true, a lot of the engls are very metal voiced (powerball!), but some are a lot more versatile (savage se/savage!)
EDIT: screw this, here's my d music site: http://davemc.dmusic.com
Most of that is hard rock or lighter, and i'm using a savage se.
You pretty much don't need a booster for an engl (bar classic tube and maybe thunder models), unless you want to set up a rhythm tone and then use an od for mid boost or something, tom- it's that power tube distortion sounds different than pre-amp distortion. A classic rock tone sounds much more authoritative with the poweramp working hard.
Unfortunately, that level of volume has been known to knock ornaments of the toilet which is next door to the room my amp is in...
:twisted:
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So basically...
For Engl heads and for Laney heads i shouldnt really care about wattage since they deliver at low volumes as well?
Kind of.
But cranking them sounds even better, so it's not as simple as that.
What's your budget, and what exact tones do you want? It's true, a lot of the engls are very metal voiced (powerball!), but some are a lot more versatile (savage se/savage!)
1000GBP budget max.
Tones: Led Zeppelin, Sabbath, Cream, GnR, Jethro Tull, Hendrix, etc etc...
I am seriously considering the Orange Rocker 30, THD Flexi 50, Laney GH50L...
I have heard from some people that the Orange 30 will do very well at low volumes , even better with the hotplate and that the PCB and general construction is top notch.
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well, i tried the orange rockerverb 50 2x12, and it sounded great at low volumes. Only 2 channel though (that may be enough for you, lol, i'm a control freak).
For under £1000, for a range of tones, the engl to look at is the screamer, IMO. you need to try it, though, it might not do what you want.
I think you should try to get a go on a laney tt too, i really liked it when i tried it.
EDIT: i just read those tones, lol. I probably wouldn't go engl for them, but still see if you can try one. A blackmore might be worth a try too, but i haven't tried it, unfortunately.
I also haven't tried the flexi, but i hear great things.
What about a marshall?
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i tried a rockerverb 50 combo...
It was the best low volume tone i ve ever heard with or without a Hotplate... period.
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Give up playing bedroom levels. lol.
i keep my gear in an old school thats closed down and 3-4 times a week i go down there and let the amp breath and pi*s the caretaker off with the rest of the band.
Do yourself a favour, get a loud amp, big old cab and rent a room / rehearsal place and go mental. bedroom playing is bollo*ks, IMO. i dont like attenuaters, i secretly feel the amp is being restricted / strangled somewhat, weather thats true, i dunno. if you cant do this then crank it in your bedroom. (and risk eviction / brawls with big Dave next door!)
the sounds that happen when the amp is moving loads of air is quite unlike playing at lower levels. thats why i dont.
yeah...........................LOL
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Not an option