Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Slartibartfarst42 on February 08, 2015, 07:26:10 PM
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Well, it's a New Amp Day but it's not the one people might have been expecting given my recent thread about solid state amps. In fairness, I did buy the Orange CR60C and I stand by the fact that it's a seriously good solid state amp but in the cold light of day, I just couldn't live without the tone of real valves so I took it back. What I now have instead is an Orange TH30 head and Orange 1X12 cabinet. I tend to prefer 1X12 cabs because they're portable and take virtually no space. So, a quick review and then some questions I'm hoping you guys can help me with.
General
They say that 'less is more' but while that may sometimes be true, it isn't always true. This seems to neatly sum up the TH30. There are very few controls here and that's great because you don't have to spend an age setting things up. If 'plug and play' is what you like, you'll love this. As it happens, I do like that simplicity but in my view they've gone just a bit too far. Both channels would have been much better off with a full 3-band EQ and a master volume would have been good too. The lack of these things does compromise you a bit. Having said that, it's very well built and does offer some useful features like the ability to move to either 30w, 15w or 7w. The effects loop is also a very welcome feature and for those valve purists amongst you, this is a proper valve amp, including preamps, power amps, effects loop and phase inverter.
Clean Channel
Awesome. That is the only word for it really as this amp certainly has the best sounding clean channel I've ever used. It's probably closer to a Vox clean than a Fender clean but either way, it's seriously good and incredibly loud. It will start to break up at about 12 o'clock but by that point it's so loud, even at 7w, that it's deafening. This is where a Master volume would have been handy as I see no possibility of me using it as anything other than a straightforward clean channel. While the 2-band EQ works well, I would rather it used a 3-band. The voicing of the clean channel is very different to the drive channel and the volume settings are also very different. If you have the volume on the clean channel set to just 1, you'll need the volume on the drive channel set to at least 3. Overall the clean channel is superb and all the more remarkable because it appears on an amp with a seriously high gain drive channel.
Dirty Channel
This took a lot more getting used to and I confess that initially I wasn't a fan, to the point that I seriously thought I'd made a mistake. The distortion is very tight, aggressive, dry and hairy. The voicing is undoubtedly modern and lacked the saturation and compression I like. On top of that, the more you pushed the gain knob past 12 o'clock, the more it turned to fizz. Not a promising start, so what has changed? Well, after some experimentation, I discovered a few key things about it:
1) You need the volume set to at least 30% as below that it really doesn't sound as good but once you reach that figure it seems to start to breathe properly. The downside for home use is that even on the 7w setting, that's loud. The plus side of this, however, is that you have no need to fear at a gig because the more you drive it, the more it likes it. This does create a bit of a balancing act for you as 15w at full tilt sounds awesome but there is more body in the tone using the 30w setting, but then you have to reduce the volume. Perhaps it's six and half a dozen but there are certainly a lot of tonal options here as whenever you change wattage, the tone changes.
2) It's best not to put the gain knob past 1 o'clock if you want to avoid fizz, though that already gives you lots of distortion. I have mine set to 11 o'clock and there I have enough distortion for many songs while it is tight enough and open enough for Classic Rock and Hard Rock. There's a LOT of punch in this amp compared to my old Blackstar. To get more distortion I use an overdrive instead, with the gain set low and the level set quite high. This adds the compression and saturation I like while keeping things very articulate. Using the amp this way I have two very distinct tones whereas with the Blackstar they were both superb but much closer.
3) The Shape knob is limited in what it can do even though it's not bad but this really isn't an issue as I just use an EQ pedal instead.
1X12 Cabinet
Built like a tank, closed back, very light and comes with a Celestion Vintage 30 speaker. Personally, I find that this speaker has too many harsh upper mids and this only serves to highlight those characteristics I'm not too keen on so I think a speaker change is on the cards but more of that later.
Conclusion
It's an amp with a distinctive character that won't suit everyone (what would?) but it does give you two very usable channels, excellent build quality, all valve tone, superb effects loop and all at a very fair price (thanks to Chinese manufacture). A special note on the effects loop. This is the first time I've owned an amp that uses a valve in the effects loop and it really is superb. All of my effects, including those out front, seem to have come alive with this amp.
Questions
Now for the bits I need help with :undecided:
Earlier I described the drive channel on this amp as being tight, aggressive, dry and hairy and generally speaking, I've always preferred things to be warm, smooth, organic and thick. Think of a combination of Jake E.Lee, Carlos Santana and Gary Moore. As a result I'd like to move things a little more in that direction, without completely losing what the amp already has and it seems to me that the two areas that I can easily alter to achieve this is new valves and a new speaker.
Valves
This is an area I know very little about. It has been suggested to me that I should go for lower gain preamp valves like a JJ 5751 but I've no idea why that would get me closer to the tone I described. The other option would be to go for high quality preamp valves that are warm, smooth, sweet and articulate but I'm not sure what they might be.
Speaker
I'm pretty sure I want to get a WGS speaker but I have no idea which one so I'm hoping somebody on here can help me out. This is what I have so far:
HM75 - This one was suggested to me by WGS in America on the grounds that one of their techs loves Orange amps and this is his favourite speaker. It's basically their version of a G12T-75
Reaper - I can't recall where I got this idea from but I think it's a bit like a beefed up Greenback.
Liberator - This one was suggested to me by WGS in the UK but I'm unsure about their reasoning.
Invader - I came up with this one myself as it's based on a Creamback and that description of it being smooth and sweet sounded appealing.
Any help and advice would, as always, be gratefully received :smiley:
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Forgot the obligatory picture :tongue:
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Had an HM75 and a Vet30 in the same cab. Both sounded great. Replaced G12T-75s. First impression was that I had more of the mids we refer to as "body" and they were less spiky up top. Not dull, or less punchy in any way. Here is an HM75 driven by a 5150 I modded and now don't have anymore. There is no bass guitar in the mix.
https://soundcloud.com/limitless-amps-and-diy/forgefinalconfig
edit: and happy NAD :)
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If you want to smooth out the tone I would go Reaper HP or Invader. The Liberator looks like an extra creamy ET65, which can sound superb, but I read it doesn't cut through the mix as a Veteran does. But WGS says the Liberator has a souped up midrange with a lot of punch and presence. Without any proof I feel that this speaker is not a bad choice either.
But if I had to choose one, I would set my money on the Reaper.
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Firstly: Congrats and nice to hear from you again. =)
Then Iīd say hold up on the speaker change and do tubes first. The speaker will mellow out a bit once broken in and a change in tubes is usually cheaper and does a lot. In my Orange Tiny Terrow HW that was very clear. The Orange Amps seem to be rather raw in the circuit so changing the cheaper chinese tubes does a lot. Main problem is that the stock ones are known to be typical for the cheap chinese tube: Fizzy and agressive.
The simplest path to add more round tube warmth and growl is to get some JJs, as you mentioned. I have not tried their power stage tubes, as I use TAD EL84 Str in my Terror (IIRC), but I know their front amp tubes. Putting one in the front of the amp should give you an instant boost in what you want. Since they are also widely available and donīt cost much Iīd say that should be your first step, then take it from there. Going all JJ can actually be too much of a good thing, so start with one and see. V1 has the greatest effect anyhow.
After that Iīd look at the power stage. There you can add a lot of air, gain, or tube warmth depending on what you pick. Then Iīd use V2 and following to fine tune the sound, as those have the smallest effect the further in you go.
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Kiichi - Sorry I've not been around so much recently but it's a combination of a very hectic life and not actually using Bare Knuckles any more. Changing the valves first does make sense I suppose. I wasn't entirely sure which to do first really as valves are cheaper but I'd assumed the speaker would have a more significant impact. When I tried the amp out (I bought it second hand) it was through a Marshall 4X12 and it was VERY different so clearly the speaker must make a huge difference. The cabinet was also bought used so I'm assuming the Vintage 30 has already been largely broken in. Anyway, with regards to the valves, you really have to treat me as though I'm stupid because what I know about them could be spray painted on a postage stamp! Let's review what I know about valves. I know that the EL84 valves for the power amp need to be a matched set of four and I know that these valves have far less impact on tone than the preamp valves. I know that JJ valves are good, though Hot Rox suggested a TAD set to me. Preamp valves are a complete minefield to me I'm afraid. I know the effects loop needs a valve with lower gain and that is a 12AT7 but I have no idea if different makes would make any difference in that area. The four preamp valves are all said to be 12AX7 but one of those is for the phase inverter. I have absolutely no idea what a phase inverter either is or does so I have no idea if it makes any difference what I put in there. I was under the impression that this would also be a lower gain valve but the Orange website says 12AX7 so perhaps I'm wrong. That leaves three preamp valves - one for the clean channel and two for the dirty channel but what V1 or V2 etc. refers to, I have no idea. I assume this refers to their position but unless they're clearly marked, how do I know which is which? As I look at the front of the amp, the clean channel is on the right so I assume the valve furthest to that side of the amp must be the one for the clean channel and that would be V1 but if that's the clean channel, why would that affect the distorted tone? That must mean that they number the other way so the valve furthest to the left as I look at the front of the amp must be V1 as the first two gain stages of the dirty channel, then V2 will be the other dirty channel valve and V3 is the clean channel. Where does that leave the phase inverter valve? You can see how confusing I find this! Even once I understand this, there's still the question of what to change it to. The Orange forum suggested a low powered JJ 5751 or even lower than that to take away fizz but I have no idea why this would achieve my tonal goals. Hot Rox suggested a TAD 7025/12AX7 Highgrade Premium Select RT010 for V1 and then a TAD 12AX7A/ECC83 Premium Selected RT001for V2. They never mentioned V3 or the phase inverter. Would these seem like good choices?
Telerocker - I get the impression that I can't go that far wrong with any of those speakers but I do value your opinion. Over the years I've learned to trust this forum more than any other. The Reaper and the Invader were the two I was leaning towards so that's good. Out of interest, why would you go for the Reaper over the Invader?
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Slarti, the Reaper is a replacement speaker for the G12H30, which has - compared to a V30 - more bass and downtuned topend. It works like a treat in many 1x12 cabinets. The HP will give you a little more headroom. That's good for the clean channel. On the drivechannel even a tele will now sound reasonably balanced.
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The V1 is the first tube in the circuit. It sets the tone from which the others build and usually contributes most of the gain, especially when you use an overdrive. Then the further you go down the line the less of an impact the tubes have as they just process what came before them and are not driven that hard, thus not instilling as much character. That means a change in V1 only can make a lot of a difference. The most out of any tube changes usually. That is why I recommend that as a first step. If you have a local store and they have JJs it can be a good start to get a single one, place it in V1 and see what happens, since they are widely available and not costly at all. Then you know what difference that can make too.
The sound impact of the phase inverter is negligable for now. The Hot Rox suggestions could work well, though I am not familiar with those exact tubes. I do mantain however that JJs are a common choice for Orange and do help with that roundness you seek. As a starting point they are just great. Though in the end you can only start with an edjucated guess and go from there.
All preamp tubes can be freely switched and combined. You could even pop in AU7 or AT7 tubes instead of AX7, but you would loose considerable gain and it might not sounds as good since the amp is designed with a specific type in mind. However things like putting a JJ in V1 and a TAD in V2 is no issue.
A quick search brought up this diagramm which shows where which tube is in the TH30. http://orangeampsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/3.jpg (http://orangeampsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/3.jpg)
As you can see the clean and dirty channel seem to have seperate preamp stages, so you donīt need to change the clean if you donīt want to (since you like it) and still mellow out the dirty channel.
TAD tubes are really nice ones I find, but the preamp seem a good bit brighter to me than the JJs. I have ones like them in V2, to add back some of the sparkle and air to the smooth goody warmth of the JJ.
The effects loop needs a lower gain tube cause you do not want to run the risk of it starting to distort. Not wanted there. Thus AT7 or AU7 tubes are commonly used there. Same family as the AX7 but lot less gain.
The powerstage really only comes into play big when the tubes start cooking and start to distort. Before that their contribution is noticable, but more subtle than a V1 change. It can also affect when the amp distorts though and the output before that. Also airyness, etc. Generally you just want to get away from chinese tubes which are known for agression and fizz. Just keep in mind that they need to be matched as you mentioned.
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Nice :D
Is the cabinet new? If so, the V30 should calm down a fair bit when it's broken-in. That's not to say you won't still dislike it even when it is broken in, lol, but at least you'll know for sure. Unless you're in a big hurry to swap it I'd probably hold off.
EDIT: I'd say a G12H30 has more top-end than a V30. Most things do. The top end of a V30 is kind of rolled off. It has a lot of upper mids which can make you think it's bright, but when you compare it to a speaker which actually has high end you can normally see that it's missing some of it.
I think. :laugh:
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I meant the Reaper has a downtuned topend.
But Dave, you're right about breaking in the speaker. That sometimes takes half a year.
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I've spent a lot of time with Orange amps recently including the TH30 which I didn't like. In fact I didn't really like any Orange amps because of the fuzziness when you crank them. However, the Dual Terror changed my opinion. It's a GREAT amp with no fizz and if you're after the thick tones of Jake E.Lee, Carlos Santana and Gary Moore this amp will do those sounds with ease. If you have the option of changing amps I'd go for the Dual Terror. You can get tons of gain on both channels as well.
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Rockerverb 50/6V6 - crank the master, keep the preamp gain around 12 o'clock max. No fizz. A 5150 is fizzy.
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I've spent a lot of time with Orange amps recently including the TH30 which I didn't like. In fact I didn't really like any Orange amps because of the fuzziness when you crank them. However, the Dual Terror changed my opinion. It's a GREAT amp with no fizz and if you're after the thick tones of Jake E.Lee, Carlos Santana and Gary Moore this amp will do those sounds with ease. If you have the option of changing amps I'd go for the Dual Terror. You can get tons of gain on both channels as well.
What?! I;ve owned a Dual Terror and whilst its a cracking amp which I regret selling, I wouldn't say it NAILS those tones with ease... YMMV
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I meant the Reaper has a downtuned topend.
But Dave, you're right about breaking in the speaker. That sometimes takes half a year.
Woops, sorry for misunderstanding :embarrassed:
And yeah V30s can take a while. :laugh:
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I bought the cabinet used from a regularly gigging musician so while it looks pretty much like new, I assume the speaker is broken in properly. Anyway, I ordered some new valves tonight so I have a quick question to clarify where I'm putting them. Would I be correct in thinking that on that diagram Kiichi posted a link to, V1 is 'Dirty Channel Stage 1&2'; V2 is 'Dirty Channel Stage 3&4' and V3 is the clean channel?
http://orangeampsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/3.jpg
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I meant the Reaper has a downtuned topend.
But Dave, you're right about breaking in the speaker. That sometimes takes half a year.
Woops, sorry for misunderstanding :embarrassed:
And yeah V30s can take a while. :laugh:
Dave, when I read back I didn't write it down properly, so oops on my side.
Yeah, new V30's can be abrasive, especially played at home, but in the band they cut really good through the mix. It's in my experience really a stagespeaker.
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Maybe that's part of the problem for me. It's not just that the high mids can be a bit harsh, it's that so far I've only had a chance to play it at home and while 30% volume even on 7w is very loud, it's not really like being on stage. No doubt I'll like it more when I next crank it with the band but realistically, while I play with the band every week, I play at home every night so I really need a speaker that will work in both locations. There is no doubt it has to go.
Meanwhile, anybody know the answer to my previous question?
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^ Not sure, I'm not that familiar with Orange amps and don't want to tell you something which might be wrong. Better wait until someone who can tell you for sure sees it.
I bought the cabinet used from a regularly gigging musician so while it looks pretty much like new, I assume the speaker is broken in properly.
Ah OK, no worries :laugh: As I said, being broken-in was no guarantee you'd like them, but if they weren't already you might as well wait until they are, just in case, kind of thing.
Dave, when I read back I didn't write it down properly, so oops on my side.
Yeah, new V30's can be abrasive, especially played at home, but in the band they cut really good through the mix. It's in my experience really a stagespeaker.
No worries
I don't even mind them at home volumes when broken-in either (at least for amps and tones which suit them). I might be weird in that respect, though. :grin:
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I bought the cabinet used from a regularly gigging musician so while it looks pretty much like new, I assume the speaker is broken in properly. Anyway, I ordered some new valves tonight so I have a quick question to clarify where I'm putting them. Would I be correct in thinking that on that diagram Kiichi posted a link to, V1 is 'Dirty Channel Stage 1&2'; V2 is 'Dirty Channel Stage 3&4' and V3 is the clean channel?
http://orangeampsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/3.jpg
The way I see it is that the amp has two V1 stages. One of the dirty and one of the clean channel. Those would be the Stage 1&2 things respectivly. From those the signal goes to the phase inverter for the clean channel and to another stop, Stage 3&4, on the dirty channel.
So the only preamp tube that affects both channels is the PI. This gives you a lot more room to adjust the sound, as you have two tubes changing the dirty channel and one defining the clean.
If I made a mistake in my reading someone else please chime in.
Sides that, did that answer the question slarti?
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Not really, it made it more complicated!!!!
Let me put it this way; I have three valves arriving tomorrow that I've bought for the three positions that seemed to indicate clean and drive channels. FRom what I could gather, the PI and effects loop could wait until I had more cash as valves is an expensive business. I bought a TAD Highgrade Premium RT010 for the V1 position as I was told that was the most important position and I bought two TAD Premium Selected RT001 valves for the other two positions. Now it seems I have two V1 positions AND a PI slot to think about so should I have bought two or even three RT010 valves instead? If not, should the RT010 valve I have got go in the dirty channel, clean channel or PI position?
While I'm on, I've been running the TH30 on 7.5w power but even on this setting it's about the loudest thing I've ever heard. People talk about the clean channel going into a lovely distortion when the volume gets to 12 o'clock but even set at 1 on the 7.5w setting it's easily loud enough for home use. Changing to 15w and 30w does make things louder still but in all honesty, not by that much. I swear I could easily play a gig at 7.5w and I was expecting 7.5w to be ideal for home use. Is this normal?
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Sorry for complicating things. You are right in not thinking about the PI and Loop much for now. With the amps you got Iīd put the RT010 in the dirty V1, stage 1&2, since that is what you have the most issues with. Then use the other two for dirty V2, stage 3&4, and clean V1, stage 1&2.
Lovelything with the preamp tubes is though that you can really easily switch em around and try different things though. But this is what I would start with.
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Thanks, you're a star Kiichi, that's been a lot of help. I'll have these in for the weekend and see where we go from there but I daresay next month it will be the power amp valves and at least the PI valve as that seems to control the drive channel so it would make sense to get something of quality in there. Once that's all done I'll see how I feel about the speaker :grin:
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Ah, donīt make me blush. We all just try to do our part here, donīt we. I mean your reviews are still the best ones Iīve seen around. =)
Really looking forward to your account of the tube change now. A bit anxious since I do not know the exact tubes, but I know what the change can do.
Problem is that this discussion has me wanting to do some trials with my TT again...maybe itīs time to give another powerstage set a run. And some preamp stuff before that since I have a good handful lying around. Maybe give the low gain V2 another shot. Arghhhhh.
Edit: I just had my second post 2000 (damn the crash!!!). Good way to use it. Hurray to this forum, its spirit, and most of all the folks around here. I raise my glass to you.
Love,
Kiichi, aka Ole
Now let us get the next 2000 started. And me some new guitars and BKPs. =)
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A bit anxious since I do not know the exact tubes, but I know what the change can do.
I was on the verge of going with the JJ valves because I used them in my Blackstar so I already know they were good but the guy at Hot Rox insisted the TADs weren't that bright and would be a better fit for what I was wanting to do with the Orange. He was then banging on about valves that Santana uses etc. but by that point it didn't matter much to me. They sell Orange amps so they must know them and the TAD and JJ valves were very similar in terms of price so it seemed to me that he had nothing to gain by moving me to TAD valves. Anyway, there's no harm in trying something new :smiley:
When I changed the valves in my Blackstar I noticed an improvement, though it wasn't that drastic, possibly because it had Marshall valves in it already so I assume they were good quality. I haven't even looked what valves are in this Orange yet but I'm hoping it's still the original Chinese valves as I know I will see a more drastic change then and it will help to explain why it's currently a bit grainy and fizzy.
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Well, the new preamp valves are now in but as it's very late I won't get the chance to test them until after work tomorrow. Unfortunately, I don't expect the big difference I'd hoped for as the valves that were in there weren't cheap Chinese valves but JJ valves. Still, we'll see.
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I've spent a lot of time with Orange amps recently including the TH30 which I didn't like. In fact I didn't really like any Orange amps because of the fuzziness when you crank them. However, the Dual Terror changed my opinion. It's a GREAT amp with no fizz and if you're after the thick tones of Jake E.Lee, Carlos Santana and Gary Moore this amp will do those sounds with ease. If you have the option of changing amps I'd go for the Dual Terror. You can get tons of gain on both channels as well.
What?! I;ve owned a Dual Terror and whilst its a cracking amp which I regret selling, I wouldn't say it NAILS those tones with ease... YMMV
I used the Dual terror at about 6/7 rehearsals so I got to know it pretty well. It was VERY thick sounding. If there was one thing that put me off a little it's that I didn't think it had as much bite as I like for gigs. And this is using RYs in a mahogany guitar.
Slarti - good luck but it's very hard to find an amp that's great for both gigs and home playing. My Cornford combo is the best gigging amp I've had but it's nothing special at kitchen volume. I play a lot at home but nearly always unplugged. If I need a little noise I'll go through my Microcube which is a great home amp. If you like the Orange at gig volume can't you compromise a little on your home sound ? Better a great gig sound and an okay home sound than the other way round.
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Well, the new preamp valves are now in but as it's very late I won't get the chance to test them until after work tomorrow. Unfortunately, I don't expect the big difference I'd hoped for as the valves that were in there weren't cheap Chinese valves but JJ valves. Still, we'll see.
That changes things of course, but even though it wonīt be the expected change there should be a noticable one. Plus you now have more options for switching things around. TAD V1 with a JJ V2 or vice versa. I am staying positive here.
Inspired by this thread I also changed around the preamp in my TT, now having a Tube Town AX7 V1 and a Sylvania AT7 V2. Man, this transformed the end. Took out a good bit of gain, but improved it too. It now feels much more open, touch sensitive, defined, sweet, and it reacts better to guitar controlls. I have not yet tried it for metal, but for hard rock, classic metal, and blues especially this feels amazing. The singing lead sounds now...oh my.
Not the last experiment for now though. I still got other tubes, from AX7 to AU7.
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I stand corrected, the TAD valves have improved things :smiley:
In fairness, the JJ valves were just standard JJ valves rather than the more expensive gold pin items and these TAD valves are the Highgrade Premium in V1 and the Premium Selected in the other two positions. The tone now is thicker, darker and smoother. There's still a distinctly modern voice to it but I think that's just the way the amp is. Either way, it's a hell of a lot closer to what I wanted now. Being thicker, darker and smoother now, it's certainly making the Vintage 30 sound better. I still wouldn't mind a smoother speaker but this has removed the urgency to change.
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Well, that is a weight of my shoulders. Glad to hear it worked out the way you and I hoped. Now I wonder just how much you would have hated the stock tubes though.^^
People still fight over it, but I am on the side that thinks that tubes too have a break in period and mellow out a bit over time. Nothing too drastic, but rather like a rock near the ocean, loosing its coarse nature over time. The shape is retained, but the surface smooths.
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I've just sold some old gear so I have a bit more cash now. Would changing power valves and the PI valve improve things further or would I be better off changing the speaker?
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Check out the Celestion Lynchback. It might be exactly what you're looking for in a speaker.