Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Slartibartfarst42 on February 12, 2016, 08:20:13 PM
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As some of you may know, I've just acquired a Stratocaster with an SSS configuration. It's a Mexican Standard with a maple neck. I've never really used singlecoils before as I'm more of a humbucker man but with two guitars already doing that, I wanted something different. This guitar won't be used for anything Metal and probably won't even go that far into Rock as I envisage it as more of a Blues guitar. Having said that, I would like something that is pretty versatile so could run from more traditional Blues, through Blues Rock to perhaps Rainbow kind of material, though that end of things is less important because by the time I get to things like 'Man on the Silver Mountain', I will already have changed to a humbucker guitar. I'm not rushing into a purchase because I want to see how I get on with it for a while first and anyway, I need to save the money :smiley:
I thought I'd start by naming the Stratocaster users that I really like (which may cover a lot of ground) and go from there. My amp will be set up for my normal humbucker guitars and I'd rather not have to change the settings too much so something that responds well to the volume control would be essential. In no particular order:
Jeff Healey
Philip Sayce
Eric Clapton
SRV
Ritchie Blackmore
I'm guessing I'm looking at something between vintage and contemporary so I imagine it would be either Irish Tours or Slow Hands. Obviously Slow Hands seem the obvious choice for Clapton and I believe they also do a good Blackmore tone but based on nothing but my gut, Healey, Sayce and SRV seem more like Irish Tours than Slow Hands. Any thoughts on which one would be the best compromise for these tones? I accept that with very limited knowledge of singles, my assumptions about what I need may be well off the mark. :tongue:
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If you are a humbucker man, like me, I would either go all Slow Hands, Irish Tour with Slow Hands in the bridge or maybe even Slow Hands with Trilogy Suite or Sinner in the bridge. My one and only strat has vintage singlecoils (not BKP) in the neck and middle and a baseplated Sinner in the bridge, and it is one of my most versatile guitars! I would very much like to change the neck and middle to Slow Hands myself, but I think the stock Fender 57/62s do the job nicely for now. And the Sinner is actually not crazy hot, it can do softer styles as well as 80's metal! Depending a lot on the amp, it still sounds very much like a single coil but in a good way.
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If you want something that provides a lot of balls I would consider the tapped version of SD Quarter Pound in the bridge combined with some nice BKs for the neck and middle positions, running the QP in tapped mode when you want to combine with the sweeter sounding BKs (ITs or milder) and then bam! kick out the tap when you want pure balls. You could even wire the switch so that the tap is on when the knob is down and then pull it up when you need that oomph
http://www.seymourduncan.com/pickup/quarter-pound-staggered-strat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO1gCMKPOA0
I've used a QP in a Tele before, you might want to use a 500K pot or set it up somehow that when the full coil is on that you run straight to jack. Very powerful pickups but tapped they can sound sweet.
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I recommend either a:
1. Slowhand-set, with a baseplate on the bridge for some extra beef and depth. Irish Tours are closer to Hendrix, SRV and Jeff Healy-thing, but the Slowhands won't leave you without the mids you're used to as humbucker-man. The IT's are definitely more scooped than the Slowhands.
2. The suggestion above for a hotter single coil in the bridge is a good one, unless you want that quack on the fourth position. With a Trilogy Suite or a Sinner in the bridge there will be some disbalance, but you can balance the pickups to a certain extend by raising/lowering the height.
3. If your strat has a full cavity you could change the guitar to a HSS-strat. You can order a prewired guard. If not, I would stick to suggestions 1 en 2.
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Well if going option three then could run a Nantucket or Supermassive HSP-90 and have more single coil character but with P-90 fatness
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Well if going option three then could run a Nantucket or Supermassive HSP-90 and have more single coil character but with P-90 fatness
Or a Crawler. One of my bands plays Bonamassa, Beth Hart, Sass Jordan, Hendrix, SRV etc. The Crawler is really good for these styles (and of course Hendrix and SRV on the neck-IT).
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Mmmmm, as I suspected, the Slow Hands do a couple of the guitarists I like while Irish Tours do the others. I'm definitely not putting a humbucker in it so it's staying SSS and I'm wary of going too far down the 'hot' pickup route as I'll just lose that 'Blues' feel I'm after. It seems I have a number of possibilities to think about:
1) Slow Hand set with a baseplate on the bridge
2) Irish Tour set with a baseplate on the bridge
3) Trilogy Suite bridge with either Slow Hands or Irish Tours for the neck and middle
4) Trilogy Suite bridge, Irish Tour middle and Slow Hand neck
5) P90 bridge (another company can make me one that is Strat sized) with IT/SH. The Quarter Pounder would be another option here as it does sound good.
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I have used the Jazz bass QP set and the Telecaster bridge QP (the cheaper untapped model) and I have nothing bad to say about them except that they are hot pickups and if my friend with the Tele was not such a cheapskate he would have bought the tapped option and had a much more versatile guitar but he treats that thing as a one trick pony. It doesn't even have a wiring harness, just the QP wired straight to the jack.
Compared to the P-90 that came in his Epiphone 50th anniversary SG the output difference is such that he simply stopped using the Maxon OD-9 he was using as a boost into his Mesa when using the QP guitar as without any pots it's got a very strong signal to the amp, much stronger than a regular p-90.
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A coil tapped QP does seem like a great idea as you effectively get two pickups in one and both are genuine singlecoils
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As said before, I imagine you would be best served with option 1 or 2, with position 2 and 4 in series and a baseplate one the bridge. That way the strat remains a strat and but goes more towards your sound preferences.
If you really want a fat bridge SH bridgeplate and then ITs for middle and neck. Or just an IT middle could work too to model it a tad more towards a HSH guitar and potentially improve position 2 and 4.
You have humbucker guitars and will hopefully get a P90 one in the future to round out the picture. ;)
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This is true. I am perhaps getting too drawn towards a hot bridge when I already have PRS and a Les Paul for that. Perhaps I should simply focus on what's best for the tones of those guitarists I originally mentioned and let the other guitars do everything else.
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This is true. I am perhaps getting too drawn towards a hot bridge when I already have PRS and a Les Paul for that. Perhaps I should simply focus on what's best for the tones of those guitarists I originally mentioned and let the other guitars do everything else.
If you do want to embrace the "strattyness" rather than get a strat nearer to what you are used to so far... I would say go for the vintage end - that's what most of those guitarists were using (depending on what part of their career you're interested in). They used the amp/pedals etc to get close to the tones - the rest is in their fingers, the amount of attack they use, etc. If you go for the same sort of pickups, you'll have to learn how to force the tone out of the instrument same as they did. If you go for hotter/thicker options, you'll be able to use more of the techniques you use already with humbuckers - but you won't have to learn some of the stuff those other guitarists did. Really the choice is up to you, both routes are are just as right as each other...
... I'm actually learning the other way at the moment: I've spent all my life grinding into strats or teles. Now I'm having to learn how to be a bit gentler to get the most out of humbuckers, more range of expression or tone, I guess. (I must admit - it's changing my strat playing too.)
Oh, and one last thing - I've always wanted to use the same EQ etc on the amp between different types of guitar. Alas no... I'm closer now than I've ever been, but don't expect a pure strat and a humbucking guitar to both sound as good as they can through the same settings. Personally, I've got it down to mids - a bit more for a strat, a bit less for a humbucker (or a tele).
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Oh, and one last thing - I've always wanted to use the same EQ etc on the amp between different types of guitar. Alas no... I'm closer now than I've ever been, but don't expect a pure strat and a humbucking guitar to both sound as good as they can through the same settings. Personally, I've got it down to mids - a bit more for a strat, a bit less for a humbucker (or a tele).
Which, to be honest, is one of the reasons the Slow Hands appeal; they have that bit more mids like humbuckers but I do recognise that most of the tones I've picked are more Irish Tour and vintage than Slow Hand.
EDIT: How could I forget!!! Dave Gilmour is another Strat tone I love :smiley:
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Better not drag Gilmour into this, that guy is an enigma. He uses so many things to create his tone, pickups are the least of the issue there it seems. Heck, sometimes he apperantly did not even use a bloody amp, just played straight into the board. I mean...whut?
So that one is...yeah....maybe not go there.
All in all I am going to say Irish Tour (with possibly a Slowhand bridge). Seems to be the best ground to tread on here imho.
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A few years ago I got myself a Fender American Deluxe Strat after a couple of years with humbuckers only, a Les Paul. I had an intense SRV-period and I really loved his tone (still do). At the time I had no clue how he got the tone, with his disturbingly heavy gauge strings and cranked Marshalls and Fenders. I asked Tim what he would recommend for that type of tone, and he probably recommended me the pickups closest to what he actually used, the 63' Veneer Boards.
Not to say that they sounded bad, but I thought they sounded really weak and anorectic compared to the fat Les Paul tone. I just could not enjoy the glassy highs and weaker, less present mid range. The guitar was meant to be a blues guitar like yours, but I felt the guitar was almost totally useless without any power or body especially in the bridge position. If you are used to humbuckers you will probably have the same experience, and because of that I do not think you will be really satisfied with something less hot/middy than the Slow Hands to be honest. Just my two cents, and worst case scenario you could always return the Irish Tours :smiley:
And one more thing: I would not totally dismiss HSS, but it might be an idea to try SSS for a while first to figure out if you really need it. I am strongly considering it for my strat. With a good splitting humbucker you will retain 4/5 positions and getting that sweet and thick humbucker tone instead of the weak, shrill and thin tone of a vintage single coil. Hell, you can even get that if you split the humbucker :wink:
You can consider this 4 cents :laugh:
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One more thing, come to think about it, and itīs a potentially weird one. If there is one weird addition I could add to all of my guitars it is not some sort of wiring, but the addition of a build in Zvex Super Hard on. That baby is an incredible clean boost that literally just feels like it sucks more out of the pickup. I feel no coloring, no nothing, just more in the best way.
I know that baby usually is a padle, but the scholar, gentleman, and all around amazing guy Juan Solo once glued that pedal to a push pull poti (cause it is simple and tiny to begin with and then Juan Solo happened). I currently own three of those, with only one installed sadly (due to reasons that will follow) as of now.
Essentially if you have the space for a 9v battery and a push pull pot you can have an on board perfect boost making for THE plug and play guitar.
If I had the coin right now to add these to all my guitars (student life still....) I would. Especially to SC guitars though, or P90s for that matter.
Everything Juan Solo builds has been awesome so far, but the "Solid Snake" mini Super Hard On, and, of course, his Klon(e) are just right up there.
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I'd rather have it in a pedal, that way I could just plug in into my power supply and not worry about batteries ...
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I'd rather have it in a pedal, that way I could just plug in into my power supply and not worry about batteries ...
I usually would tend to agree, but due to the powerdrain of this one that is a small concern for me. Plus I donīt have a power battery.
Perhaps I just like the thought of being anywhere on stage or anyhwere and being able to pull a pot and go. No board no nothing. Just go. Not a switching type.
However, even beyond that, I can just highly recommend that pedal to hell and back. The original is brilliant but overpriced, even though I love Zvex, but cause it is so simple great clones are everywhere. Either get one or build one yourself if you can put 2 and 2 together with a soldering iron. Seriously simple. Yet brilliant.
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There's a lot of food for thought here. I'm inclined to agree with Alfi27 that vintage pickups just won't do it for me, even though they're what these guys used. I think I need something hotter and fuller sounding, even if they will still sound weak and thin in comparison to the humbuckers but that's fine as I do seriously want this guitar to be different and retain a 'Strat' feel and a 'single coil' feel. When I had Trilogy Suites in the neck and middle of an HSS Jackson I thought they sounded distinctly single coil in character and I got none of the 'P90' sound that is referred to on the website. I suspect that should tell me something. I think the best thing for me to do is to spend 2-3 months playing around with the stock pickups that will be weak as anything and see how I adapt before making a decision but at the moment I'm inclined towards one of two routes:
1) Put a Trilogy Suite in the bridge but I might make it the neck model as I imagine that will allow it to mix better with my other pickups and take the bass down a tad while maintaining the mids. I'd then put an Irish Tour in the middle and a Slow Hand in the neck. I'm not sure if I should make them neck or bridge models.
2) As above but with a Strat-sized P90 made for the bridge.
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Vintage single coils will always sounds brighter and thinner than most humbuckers. You use them for different purposes. I use IT's for SRV/Hendrix/RHCP. A humbucker won't do that (right).
Anyway, a change of puppies will be a leap forward, since I don't hold much of those ceramic stockpickups in MIM-Fenders.
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Just a thought: it isn't only the pickups that make up the tones . It is the quintessential "strattiness" that you need as a basis to reach what you are looking for and to that end, I would be looking at going back to what that is. My opinion would be to go for a vintage set though I fully appreciate what you have said and I get it that some people don't like the apparent weakness. But we are talking about amplifying what is always going to be a (comparatively) weak signal, whether single coils or humbuckers for that matter. Its just the origins of that signal is what matters. I only speak what what I find: I have two guitars that have vintage type pickups, Apaches and Country Boys. My band isn't particularly loud but we have been known to get a bit carried away and the sound that comes out of my amp, albeit cranked, is anything but weak. Now I am no great guitarist but I know more than a few players who are (imho). Those that use Strats and Teles have nothing but either standard or BKP vintage pickups. If you sat and listened to them play, they have ballsy classic blues tones ( the two I am thinking of do anyway). For sure they do use pedals for a bit of extra oomph and colour but then they are not playing huge stadiums and it is not easy to sound like one is so doing--not that I am necessarily saying that that is what you are after.
Ok I am stating the bleeding obvious I know -feel free to flame/disregard/deride if you so wish.
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Oh to be thinking of humbuckers where I feel I'm on more solid ground! I wholly anticipate the stock pups to be rubbish (guitar not arrived yet) but even though they're cheap pickups, I don't expect them to be a hot wind at all because I assume Fender still want this model to sound like a Strat. I can't find the specifications of the pickups that come stock but surely they're no more than a vintage wind and if that's the case, they might at least give me a broad feel for what I want.
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Just a thought: it isn't only the pickups that make up the tones . It is the quintessential "strattiness" that you need as a basis to reach what you are looking for and to that end, I would be looking at going back to what that is. My opinion would be to go for a vintage set though I fully appreciate what you have said and I get it that some people don't like the apparent weakness. But we are talking about amplifying what is always going to be a (comparatively) weak signal, whether single coils or humbuckers for that matter. Its just the origins of that signal is what matters. I only speak what what I find: I have two guitars that have vintage type pickups, Apaches and Country Boys. My band isn't particularly loud but we have been known to get a bit carried away and the sound that comes out of my amp, albeit cranked, is anything but weak. Now I am no great guitarist but I know more than a few players who are (imho). Those that use Strats and Teles have nothing but either standard or BKP vintage pickups. If you sat and listened to them play, they have ballsy classic blues tones ( the two I am thinking of do anyway). For sure they do use pedals for a bit of extra oomph and colour but then they are not playing huge stadiums and it is not easy to sound like one is so doing--not that I am necessarily saying that that is what you are after.
Ok I am stating the bleeding obvious I know -feel free to flame/disregard/deride if you so wish.
Far from disregarding you, you've actually given me a lot to think about and since I last posted on this thread I've been doing a lot of thinking and listening to a load of clips. It seems to me that it would be a mistake to chase a really hot and fat tone with my Strat and instead I should accept it for what it is - a guitar with singlecoil pickups. I should also accept that it will have its own job in my collection and that role won't be Heavy Rock or Metal, it will be Blues and Blues Rock mainly with perhaps a little Jazz and Funk thrown in on occasions. Furthermore, because my amp will be set up for what I mostly play (Rock, Heavy Rock and Metal), it will usually have quite a bit of gain dialled in so having comparatively weak pickups may actually be an advantage. Having listened to all of the clips I decided I liked the Slow Hands, Irish Tours and Apaches. My natural instinct is towards the Slow Hands because of the three, they're the closest to my humbucker tones so that's why I've reluctantly decided to dismiss them. To me, it's between Irish Tours and Apaches. The tone on the Apaches is beautiful while the Irish Tours certainly have a bit more grit in them that I like but I'm not sure if that's because the clip for the Irish Tours was using a bit more gain on the amp. Now again, my instinct is to go towards the Irish Tours because they're hotter, fatter and grittier but it strikes me that it might be a bit more complex than that. The extra mids on the Apaches makes me think that the notes should have a reasonable amount of body to them and if they can take a lot of gain, would I effectively end up with an Irish Tour kinda feel anyway if I go through the high gain channel of my amp? Is it easier to move Apaches into Irish Tour territory than move the Irish Tours in the other direction? Would Sultans be a middle-ground between the two? Unfortunately there's only one review on the forum for Apaches and nothing for the Sultans so it's difficult to tell.
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I had a feeling you'd go this route (or wanted to in your heart!).
Funnily enough, I have ITs, Apaches, and Sultans.
I would say that Sultans are the "softer" of the three sets. More polite and refined. If I want to play Mark Knopfler, Sultans of Swing, I feel a lot happier on Apaches. All three will do it, but Apaches just feels right to me.
I would also say that Apaches, in my experience, will travel more into IT territory than IT's will into Apache territory. The Apaches seem more versatile to me - and they've got plenty of honk when you need it (I bought them expecting to have to get used to weedier/thinner - no way, they are pretty ballsy).
BUT - when playing, I feel happiest and most at home on ITs. I have a feeling you might as well.
One last thing, though, I've never put ITs with a maple board - when I got them into my Roadworn 60s it was a match made in heaven, so they've never been moved. I've not even touched the height screws since I first set it up (in case I lose the mojo!!). But I've heard some don't like ITs with maple - too bright apparently. Not sure myself, in my experience, how that can be, because I find ITs don't have loads of brightness. But others were fine with ITs and maple. My Apaches have been with both, works real nice with either.
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IT's are well balanced, not earpiercingly bright and do also clean stuff amazingly well. They handle gain with authority, yet retaining the vintage vibe. I would say that Mother's Milk are quite a bit brighter, but I have them in another guitar (ash/rosewood). The IT's perform well in my swampash-strat with ebony fretboard. Ebony is little snappier and not quite as warm than rosewood. Despite the percussive character of ebony the IT's are at their place in this woodcombination, providing fullbodied single coil-tones on the neckpickup, which has significantly more bass than a MM-necksinglecoil.
The second position is the most hollow sounding, ideal for funky chops. The middle pickup is surprisingly useful for clean, blues and pop. I have the Crawler in the bridge. Splitted you get great quack on the fourth position. Crawler unsplitted + middle-IT provides a chimey layer on a fat sound of the Crawler. Most pleasant.
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Because Irish Tours seem a bit darker than some pickups it never occurred to me that they wouldn't suit a maple board. Does anyone else have any experience of this?
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Hi Slarti, I can only compare the Apaches with Slowhands. The latter have a little more mids I would say. Both can form the basis of a great traditional Strat tone but I'd say that the Apaches edge it for me in terms of roundness . I can't help with the Its but Andy as always comes up with an articulate analysis.
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Ben at BKP suggested Irish Tours. His point was that as my amp often has a fair bit of gain dialled in, the Irish Tours would cope with that better while still giving me a definite Strat tone at lower gain settings. As a result of this I guess the best option is to go with Irish Tours and I'll put a baseplate on the bridge. My Strat has a 9.5" radius neck so I'm guessing that a vintage stagger would be best, though being a humbucker man this doesn't mean much to me other than the fact that if it was a 14" or 16" neck I'd need to go with flat poles. Once I get them installed I'll leave it a few weeks before writing a full review, which seems to be needed as Kiichi is the only one to have written a review so far and his is only the middle pickup.
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Ben at BKP suggested Irish Tours. His point was that as my amp often has a fair bit of gain dialled in, the Irish Tours would cope with that better while still giving me a definite Strat tone at lower gain settings. As a result of this I guess the best option is to go with Irish Tours and I'll put a baseplate on the bridge. My Strat has a 9.5" radius neck so I'm guessing that a vintage stagger would be best, though being a humbucker man this doesn't mean much to me other than the fact that if it was a 14" or 16" neck I'd need to go with flat poles. Once I get them installed I'll leave it a few weeks before writing a full review, which seems to be needed as Kiichi is the only one to have written a review so far and his is only the middle pickup.
Flat polepieces are ok on a 9,5 inch radius board, but the staggered ones do no harm either.