Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: sambo on April 01, 2006, 09:13:36 PM
-
ok should have done this long ago...
what are they pros/cons of the systems below:
SYSTEM 1 : guitar----any effects pedals----amp (probably valve)
SYSTEM 2 : guitar----multi effects unit/pre-amp such as GT-8, Tonelab, POD XT Live----keyboard/PA amp such as kx1200 OR PA system OR stereo/hi-fi speakers.
i know theres gonna be issue with the actual sound of the modellers because they may never quite live up to the tone of the amp, but what are the other pros/cons?
has anyone on here been converted from modellers to amps or vice versa?[/i]
-
digital will be cheaper, lighter in weight (and theferore should be easier to move around), and probably easier to maintain. However, digital can be really awkward to program unless the interface is easy to use. Valve amps will generally be simpler, more responsive to your guitar and are thought to sound better, but of course then you get into the complicated world of valves, replacement, bias and all that (costs money too).
-
thanks willo mate. never thought about interface... your right though..... my little zoom is a BITCH to program/edit sounds on but thats ok cause i only use it for a bit of home practising... but the thought of doing that for my main 'amp' is horrifying....
and portability is fairly important... although my budget wouldnt allow a stack or anything so even valve amps would be transportable for me...
-
The nice thing about modelling is that it's lightwieght and generally pretty cheap. You can go to most clubs and DI strait into their board, or plug into a home stereo, or a power PA.....so they're pretty flexible. They're great if you need access to a large number of sounds and mediocre quality isn't an issue.
A valve amp on the other hand has tone. They're heavier, more expensive, require maintinance, you have to drag around a cab with it, and you (generally) have more sound issues due to the need to mic. That said, a valve amp has tone, is more touch responsive, and a greater range of sounds within one sound (if that makes sense). Where they really shine IMO is in their dynamics......models, no matter how good tend to sound somewhat flat. Valve amps on the other hand (when turned up) have an immediacy that'll kick you in the balls.
-
Stuff like digital modeling is very useful if you play a lot of cover versions, covering a wide range of sounds with (hopefully) little fuss and expense. Thats ofcourse if you are into the soundalike playing mode.
If you are playing your own material (or perhaps in a tribute band) where most of the material has similar tones then the one quality amp plus basic pedals will cover your needs.
Yes you can cover a lot of ground with single pedals and a good amp (or two), but you will be making a lot of unsuitable purchases until you get to the correct choices and therefore very expensive.
Have a think about what sort of material you are likely to be playing over the next couple of years, if you aren't 100% sure then strongly consider the digital route as it will not be so limiting should you change direction.
Rob...
-
well my band will be mostly playing our own material (classic to hard rock) and a few covers along the same lines...
but even then our style varies... we do a lot of clean stuff so thats important... and our 'rock' ranges from heavy stuff to like old AC/DC....
then at home i practise all kinda of stuff... ive recently got into metal a lot more.... but again, i play lots of clean stuff and anything distorted beyond 'crunch' kind of overdriven tones (i never play anything bluesy to mildly overdriven) its either a varied degree of distortion or sparkly clean.....
your last sentance was interesting rob....
-
Sam, you are 15/60yo.
In all honesty/likelihood this will NOT be your "lifelong" band.
What Rob is saying is what was brought up in another thread about Booteek pedals :roll:
A modellor is a great TOOL!
It allows for FUN
It allows for experimentation
It eases "cover song" playing
It is more portable
It has amp modelling and effects.
At your age (primarily learning,playing at home,jamming) I would have loved summit like the GT8.
Just a thought.
-
your last sentance was interesting rob....
Which last sentence, the tagline (been using it for 4 weeks now) it the 100% sure.
If you are moving from clean to classic rock, to heavy to metal then no one amp really gives you all of those. Even in clean sounds, theres fender clean, AC30 TB clean and jazz clean, and even I can hear the difference.
Even with Dave Gilmours pedalboard anyway, and even then you still don't have the metal option or all those cleans
I think you may have answered the question for yourself.
Rob...
-
kool thanks nick ^. great advice from all you guys thanks.
woah thats scary lol thinking that this couldnt be my life long band... although i spose its entirely possible that we could split at any time
-
The beauty of a good modeller is that you get a little bit of everything, and in the process you'll learn what kind of tones you like. When the time comes it'll makes choosing the right valve amp a little bit easier.
-
woah thats scary lol thinking that this couldnt be my life long band... although i spose its entirely possible that we could split at any time
Could be the same band but playing different music, possibly a change of direction, or possibly for money so you can afford that Diesel or Hiwatt amp.
Rob...
-
^ good point!..... :D thats a good way to look at it
-
If you are moving from clean to classic rock, to heavy to metal then no one amp really gives you all of those. Even in clean sounds, theres fender clean, AC30 TB clean and jazz clean, and even I can hear the difference.
Engl...
But yeah, it's true, with engl you aren't getting all the tones- you're getting one very good clean, one very good crunch, one very good harder crunch, and one excellent high gain sound, but you aren't going to get the variation of a modeller.
However, the engl will still sound like a "real" valve amp (because it is, lol). And a modeller won't.
best of both worlds, IMO- but that's my opinion, and someone else may hate an engl, lol.
:D
-
lol kool cheers dave... im really thinking hard bout this....
all robs posts seem to be a millisecond before mine so i never see em!!!!
wise words rob.... and everyone... i cant keep up!!!!
i would love a valve amp.... but i think im rushing a bit.... i dunno... not rushing because im 'not ready' (well in a sense thats why) but because in a few years time i may HATE what the ENGL is best at...... i need to find my feet in the tone world first...
and daisy summed it up perfectly when he said that a modeller will let me explore and find what i want from an amp.... then in a few years time... ill know exactly what i want... (which could be a poewrball, jcm800, triple recatifier e.t.c e.t.c)
-
Dave,
I agree with you for the most part, but sort of view the moddeling as a solution to cover a lot of ground at reasionable cost until Sam finds his ideal amp.
I chopped a line from an earlier message which was along the lines of theres nothing wrong with digital + super clean amp for covers, and a good valve amp for when you want to sound like yourself would be the perfect solution (but perhaps a little premature).
I'm just trying to be sensible (a rare enough occurence) and give enough space for Sam to find his perfect amp and the time to save for it.
Personally I want a little ole Fender amp like Billy Gibbons, a Marshall Bluesbreaker, AC 30TB and a Mesa Boogie Mk1, but even at my advanced age it ain't happening. I may get myself a Mini Mat or somthing equally nice but I ain't getting the whole set :(
I'm certainly not dismissing the abilitys of the Engel.
Rob...
-
^yeah, i know what you mean, Rob.
Engl are kind of half way between "valve amp that does one tone really well" and "modellers that do 16000 tones semi well"
I dunno, I just think sambo needs to go and try some stuff, lol.
-
I think he does to.
He has woked it out and can get by with speakers, thus needing only a modellor itself.
He is young and finding his feet and the cost of a modellor may be alot cheaper in long run to find what he really wants to be "his" sound.
-
^ lol so do i....
im never gonna bloody try anything at this rate!!!!
!!!!! starting tomorrow i sha... oh wait... no.. no not tomorrow, tomorrow=band practice... :cry:
ill try and test the modellers ASAP.... i could in theory test the ENGLs at the same time (i tihnk) if coda have one in stock....
-
^ machinehead do engls, lol- i assume they do modellers too.
-
:evil: :x THAT NAME IS SIN ITSELF!!!
-
For what its worth I get by perfectly fine in a cover band with my LP, tuner, Rat and HRDx, none of this digital filth :P
-
yes but thats not really the point is it thomas....
-
Yes... as I can still get all the appropriate sounds from a simple setup.. Plus if I get a wah, I can basically use that to emulate flanger and phaserish sounds, I know they are different effects entirely but normal pub goers dont know that :D
-
:D You can get Modeller amps as well....Line 6 Flexi tone etc. This will let you experiment with sounds before you decide on what amp [valve ] you will go for.
:D 8)
-
I played a gig last night in a tiny 15th Century pub.It was a private party with just about the most enthusiatic audience I have ever encountered
( get to the point 38th says Mrs 38th as she stands over my shoulder cos she wants to go out).I used digital multif/x and, sin upon sin, a tranny Amp( Laney World Series- I think Dakine has one) and the sound coming out was, to my ears, bloody excellent. We covered a lot of ground and I was thinking that if I'd have bought all the amps that I'd emulated I'd have spend thousands. Part of the fun of GAS is buying, trying and flogging in the quest for the perfect amp which does not exist. But you do get a sense of "your" sound and I think that takes time/money- Sambo has tons of the former and hopefully some of the latter. Bloody hell i do ramble don't i?
-
I found an amp for sambo
http://www.maverick-music.com/scripts/vintage-guitars.asp?idproduct=1007
-
ohhh rob! that looks sooo nice! i might save up a bit more to get that one...
:wink: :lol: :D
and beatle- interesting!!!!!!!!! what multi-fx did you use?
if its good enough for mr and mrs.38th its good enough for me!!
-
I wouldn't touch that digital modeling stuff with a 10 foot pole.
-
Hahahaha that dumble is REDICULOUS. What kind of idiot would spend that amount of money on it?! Could get a totally custom amp for less than that :lol:
-
Well, I have a multiFX board for "playing around" with, I can put headphones into it for silent practice, and in theory it could go straight out into a mixer too. I got this to try out different effects etc, figure out what I like and what I don't, what emulations got me etc, and then I've slowly built my "real" gear up based on this research. It worked fantasticly with my Laney valve amp if I set the amp up clean too.
It's a Korg AX-1500G, I would recommend you try the Boss equivilent though as it's probably at least as good. I got this on the cheap though so no worries.
-
Sambo,I dont know how old you are or how long you have been playing guitar but between now and whenever you will buy and sell and swap and chop so much guitar stuff it will make your head spin. Go for what what you want and if it doesn't work for you chop it in and get something else.
The elusive "perfect" gear does not exsist. I have had all sorts of amps and each one in there own rights had something but none of them had everything. the moddeling stuff nowadays is awesome and this is genuinly coming from someone who used to be so sceptical about these things, but it's true, I have heard guys in pubs throwing out some scorching tones with a line 6 PODxt and heard some real shite coming from some valve amps and vica versa.
-
ive found a simple clean and dirty tone is enough for almost anything. most people dont care that the tone isnt spot on, all 90% of punters care about are lyrics. get a good singer and your off :D
-
Sambo, it was a Korg AX1500G.I new that volume would be critical at this gig-I mean low volume and that ruled out our normal gear. I'd bought the Korg dirt cheap and got 5 patches that were more or less ok and them messed with them. I can't say it is what you would call brilliant but as been said above, the punters don't care- they just want entertaining-and that is the case for just about every gig I have ever played. Given choice I'd have a decent valve amp with a more or less clean tone with something to add a bit of filth when required.
-
i see.... was that the korg mentioend in the other thread comparing loads of units?
hmmmm interesting stuff indeed....
and phil, what you said about it working well with your laney was very interesting as i have an lc30 at the moment...
to all people commenting on this though- were you using it for effects or its pre-amp uses????
-
Hahahaha that dumble is REDICULOUS. What kind of idiot would spend that amount of money on it?! Could get a totally custom amp for less than that :lol:
er... SRV?
Anyway, my argument against the digital modelling stuff is:
(a) it won't sound as good
(b) whoever said you only really need one clean and dirty sound is right (ok, i like to have a clean, a crunch, a hard rock, and a metal sound (and a solo sound, lol), but still, it's hardly worth getting a modeller for that)
(c) If you buy a good valve amp, but it doesn't suit you, you can normally sell it on for a decent price, as opposed to a modeller, where you probably won't get as good a resale price
(k (just to shake things up, lol)) sambo is already used to valve, he's decided the laney lc30 isn't for him (more or less), i'd say going back to modelling is a step backwards. I'd assume sambo already has a rough idea of what he wants to sound like.
(e) If I were sambo I'd try to calm down the GAS, and basically say "right, I'm not buying ANYTHING for 6 months. In that time I'm going to try out everything I can get my hands on, to see what they're like". There's no need to BUY a modeller- just try out a load in shops, lol.
You have no excuse, sambo- I'm in Northern Ireland where it IS hard to get to try out good stuff, you're in London, lol.
-
lol true^.... good point(s) dave..... but i dunno if i CAN control my GAS..... :?
-
I wouldn't touch that digital modeling stuff with a 10 foot pole.
why?!???!?!!!!!! did you not hear hunters new black dog clips?
i dont see this obsession with valve amps.... its starting to annoy me...
its like people just refuse to accept that anything other than their big, fat valve amp can get any good sounds at all.....
ridiculous...
and tom, you were COMPLETELY missing the point before.... because i dont have any of your gear and im not playing the same stuff as you...
-
Woooh,
people remember the earlier moddelers which where not very good (the posh way of saying sh1te). Others have their tone and a straight valve amp (usually) works it's magic for them.
Easter is almost here and you don't need to buy anything yet, spend your hols (if you are not revising for exams) playing with every amp and moddeller you can find, including stuff you wouldn't normally look at.
At the end of the hols you will have a better idea of how to move foreward.
BTW SRV did not pay that sort of price of that we can be assured.
Rob...
PS opinions are like a55 holes, eveybody has one and they all stink.
-
urghh rob didnt need that last sentance :lol:
i know though, what i was trying to say was, why do some people not ACCEPT other peoples stinking opinions.... i mean, i can appreciate that the cleans and blues of toms fender hotrod probably sound really cool.... but that doesnt mean that i should get one, or that something else might be just as good for other things...
(not trying to single you out tom- just an example)
see what i mean?
anyway, ill TRY and make myself test a lotta stuff before i buy but not promising anything :lol:
-
You know when you'll really hear the difference between a modeller and an amp? When you've played through something like a Pod for a year and then fire up your tube amp. I bought a Pod and thought it sounded great and because I'm in an apt. I played through it all the time, about a year later I decided to fire up my amp and the difference was pretty obvious. I still get some great sounds out of the Pod, ex. the new MM pups on the Rectifier and soldano settings. I think Edge used the Pod 2.0 for all the effects on All That You Can't Leave Behind, so it'll sound good in the context of a song. But there's something about those glowing tubes that the modelers just haven't caputred.... yet :)
-
lol yer i know what you mean...
but then im guessing a lot of the differences are the actual projection of the sound- i.e fat cab with four speakers= massive in-your-face projection
little FX box through whatever= thin
so in theory... playing a multi-fx through cabs could sound just as good as valve amp through cabs...
-
urghh rob didnt need that last sentance :lol:
i know though, what i was trying to say was, why do some people not ACCEPT other peoples stinking opinions.... i mean, i can appreciate that the cleans and blues of toms fender hotrod probably sound really cool.... but that doesnt mean that i should get one, or that something else might be just as good for other things...
(not trying to single you out tom- just an example)
see what i mean?
anyway, ill TRY and make myself test a lotta stuff before i buy but not promising anything :lol:
Yeah I didnt mean "get a hotrod" I was just showing that you can get good enough sounds from a simple setup with a pedal or two and a valve amp :D
Oh and I agree with what someone else said about the crowd not caring about tone, its probably true.
-
^ well the crowd not caring about the tone works both ways:
you could argue that there was no point in getting a valve amp and few pedals because the crowd wouldnt tell the difference..
see?! thats what i mean by people not opening their eyes
-
Use the gear you want to use becasue YOU like the way it sounds. End of story.
-
nice round up...
end of story...
end of thread
-
^ well the crowd not caring about the tone works both ways:
you could argue that there was no point in getting a valve amp and few pedals because the crowd wouldnt tell the difference..
see?! thats what i mean by people not opening their eyes
Yeah thats true.. but what I meant was the "versatility" of these modellers etc, in my opinion you dont really need all the cr@p that you get with them. The only thing they are good for is recording direct in to the soundcard if you cant mic up a good amp..
And like Bird says, I use the valve amp and pedals route because I'd rather have one or two great sounds instead of hundreds of ok sounds.
-
yer see your point...
but if the crowd cant tell the difference according to loadsa people on here, then surely direct recoding is not all their good for because crowds couldnt tell the difference between valve tone/modelling tone- which means their good for gigs as well...
see?
im not saying i believe any of this im just saying that the logic (or lack of) of some people one here just doesnt make any sense....
-
haha well I know what I mean anyway..
Basically I'd rather have a sound that I like, which is a valve amp, instead of a digital thing which I dont really like, even if the crowd cant tell the difference. Does that make sense? I hope so :lol: Thats all my opinion anyway.
-
yer i know what you mean- agree with you completely...
but then do you see how some people on here dont make sense?
thats whats really getting up my badger set....
-
I used the (very basic) amp modelling in my GT-5 as a pre-amp (going into a valve poweramp) for years, and recorded 2 demos with my old band with it.
It's not perfect, but you can get some very workable tones out of it for both live and studio work.
Muttley
-
kool thanks muttley...
you wouldnt have those demos by any chane would you?
-
i dont see this obsession with valve amps.... its starting to annoy me...
its like people just refuse to accept that anything other than their big, fat valve amp can get any good sounds at all.....
It's not solely to do with sound though- it's to do with "feel" as well.
as a guy used to playing non-electrical instruments before i started guitar (piano and drums), valve amps are the only way i can really get the "feel" of a real instrument, the way an acoustic instrument reacts to your playing etc....
The fact that it sounds sweet is a bonus, lol.
SS stuff can feel (as well as sound) a bit synthetic sometimes...
I agree though, for the tones your after, a hot rod deluxe is probably not the best choice for you, lol. It's good for blues and cleans, but not much else, IMO- your Laney is probably better for the tones you want, lol. (i'm not trying to start a fight with _tom_ here, I know he loves his, and he's lucky that he's found an amp that suits him at a reasonable price!)
But that doesn't mean you don't want a valve amp, lol. Don't let your laney put you off valve amps if it doesn't have enough gain etc. Odds are you only need one or two tones to suit your style of playing, and they just happened to not be in the lc30- but that doesn't mean you need a modeller.
Oh and I agree with kilby/rob (rob kilby?), since he basically agreed with me, haha (point ceded on the SRV front too, I'm sure Dumble probably gave it to him for free or at cost, lol). During Easter (or heck, just next weekend) visit EVERY music shop you can- that way you can try out a heck of a lot more stuff, without them getting pissed off at you, lol (you just change shops after say an hour!). In your (rough) area, there's machinehead ( :lol: ), coda, wembley guitar centre, holiday music, flying pig, denmark street (about 10 different shops, so you can just go into each and try the same stuff, lol), sound control in oxford street, soho soundhouse, and probably a whole lot more I haven't thought of/heard of etc. The tube (the underground, not a valve :lol: ) is awesome too, you can buy an all-day ticket that'll get you to all those shops bar machinehead and coda for maybe £6 or £7 (from central London anyway, lol).
There's no point in wasting cash on a modeller if it won't do what you want (it might, I'm not saying it won't, lol)- at least a good valve amp that won't, as I've said already, you can get maybe 60-70% of your cash back on. Since you bought your laney second hand, you'll probably get back virtually what you paid for it, lol.
I'm a great believer in the "buy once" ethic. This is partly (more like mainly!) due to me getting caught out with "stopgap" solutions that basically sucked, and then I ended up having to buy the good (expensive) thing in the end anyway. If you know you want a high gain tube amp, for example, why waste £150, £200 or more on a modeller, if you'll still be gassing after a Krank/Engl/Framus/insert HC flavour of the month amp here after buying the modeller anyway? And then you're £200 further away from your dream amp, to add insult to injury...
And I wouldn't rush to sell the Laney till you have a new amp in your possession- I don't know about you, but I'd rather have that Laney than no amp, lol.
As for GAS- I'm seriously struggling to control mine, lol. I'm just lucky that my procrastination/laziness tendencies outweigh the overwhelming GAS I have at the moment, :lol:
It may look like I'm trying to make you buy a tube amp (I'm trying to control my bias, lol, honest), but I just don't want you to rush from buying a laney lc30 (how long have you had it? 3 months?) to rushing into buying something else that might not do what you want either- I know at 15 there aren't many options to make money, and you need to spend what you have wisely (I suppose in a way I was lucky I didn't start till 18- not from the playing point of view, though!). As I and Kilby have said, I think the best thing you can do is just say "I'm not buying anything for 6 months" (or even longer) to take the pressure off. then you can try stuff out and actually really appreciate what you want to get, it's not just random GAS any more.
Another thing to remember is, don't be bowled over by the high gain tube amps either. I know I love how high gain the engls get, but i use the metalcore-type tone maybe 10% of the time- whereas when I was trying them out in the shop I was using it all the time, because I wasn't used to being able to get those tones- silly grin time in other words. Don't let silly grin syndrome get the better of you either, lol (i was just lucky that the amp I got can do the metalcore tones, plus lots of others too).
wow, I'm such a spammer, lol.
Hope that helped!
-
but if the crowd cant tell the difference according to loadsa people on here, then surely direct recoding is not all their good for because crowds couldnt tell the difference between valve tone/modelling tone- which means their good for gigs as well...
see?
im not saying i believe any of this im just saying that the logic (or lack of) of some people one here just doesnt make any sense....
it doesn't really matter what the crowd thinks though (as long as they don't think you suck, lol)- if YOU hate your tone, you won't play as well. Also, there's the feel thing, which has nothing to do with the crowd. I'd play a westfield, since the crowd couldn't tell the difference between it and a real strat, but I know a real strat will sound/play/stay in tune etc. a lot better.
-
wow.... thanks dave... really informative! good spamming lol
yer i spose you and rob and right... trying stuff is where i need to be at now...
and im by no means set on a modeller... im open to all angles... its just the single-mindedness of other people is getting to me...
and the valve amp thing... this is a question not a statement... im not like trying to prove anything with this- this is genuine...
isnt the 'feel' of a valve amp the projection? I.E cab or amp speakers?
i know some is from tone but isnt most of it just brute force?
thanks again for the awesome post - really appreciate it
-
I would say that modelling amps give you access to ALOT of cool tones. From my experience I'd say that the cleans can be great - the Line6 SpiderII head I had did a great Fender Twin clean tone (and the cranked blues tone that emulation gave was spot on too). The Hiwatt tone from the Line6 was spot on too - that boxy midrange was captured perfectly. The ultra-high-gain tones were spot on too, huge tight bass and more volume than you'll ever need.
Where they all fall down though is in the midrange - thats why its the clean and mega-gain tones that work so well. The Marshall plexi & JCM800 tones just didn't have 'it', abour 60% 'there'.
For the money, they give alot of cool tones and you can't argue with the price at all.
That said, if you're mainly playing 'rock', you'd be hard pushed to beat a nice valve amp. Checkout a DSL50 - they are going very cheap at the minute on ebay.
:twisted:
-
kool thanks muttley...
you wouldnt have those demos by any chane would you?
http://www.muttleyville.org/mymusic.htm
All the BushPilots tracks basically. My rhythm guitar parts are panned left in most (if not all) of them.
Other stuff done with the GT-5:
Time To Stand - Synthy Intro, Intro Solo,
Defunk (really cr@p song I didn't want to record): melody lick throughout, left guitar in harmony part
Free - Middle Solo
Wishful Thinking - Tremelo parts, Middle Solo
Stay Away - Synthy Intro, Middle Solo
24hrs - Intro Riff, 2nd Solo
Basic tracks were recorded live, just overdubs for the vocals and leads (not-including the harmony bit in Defunk which was done live).
Guitars for my bits were my SG, JEM7BSB and Mark's (other guitarst) Yamaha Pacifica for the tremelo bits in Wishful Thinking.
Muttley
-
excellent cheers muttley...
and im gonna check out that DSL50 now HTH... interesting on your perception of modellers.... which ones (multi-fx/modeller e.t.c) have you used?
-
(a)wow.... thanks dave... really informative! good spamming lol
(b)isnt the 'feel' of a valve amp the projection? I.E cab or amp speakers?
i know some is from tone but isnt most of it just brute force?
thanks again for the awesome post - really appreciate it
(a) no problem man, glad to be of assistance, :D
(b) I don't think so (at least not in my opinion). 95%+ of the time I'm playing my engl, I'm playing at bedroom volume or very slightly higher (no poweramp influence in there at all), and the feel is there. I describe the "feel" as the way the instrument reacts to your playing- you can get a lot more nuances in your playing.
I know with acoustic instruments, if you want to get more energy/angst/emo ( ;) ) into your playing, you have to hit the thing harder, and likewise play softer etc. for different moods and tones. To me, you can do that with valves too.
Of course, SS will do it to a certain extent, but nowhere near as well.
Also, it's worth bearing in mind that maybe I've only tried cr@ppy SS amps.
:lol:
-
oh i see what you mean now...
lol...
well i dunno how much that bothers me at the moment... i mean... i havent picked up on that yet.... probably becaus ive tried barely any amps (SS or valve) at all....
only thing im worried about, (at the moment) is being disappointed with the tone/sound of a modeller compared to 'the real thing'... although i havent played any of 'the real things' myself so i dont think id be able to tell that much.... id just be comparing a modeller to pro artists' sound... and with my untrained ears i may not be able to tell THAT much of a difference... i dunno... i still need to try stuff..
i would have by now but i had band practice today
-
^you can even try it with your laney- set the gain to a level where it'll break up/overdrive if you hit the strings hard, and will be clean if you pick lightly, and see what you think.
Valves also tend to clean up better with the guitar's volume knob, but I don't use it much, since I'm used to acoustic instruments, lol.
Everything's on 10, all the time, with me, lol.
:twisted:
-
ok ill try that sometime...
lol ^ same with me... only thing i ever fiddle with on my guitar is the coil-tap...
-
^ :D yeah, i normally only ever change pickups, lol.
Only problem with setting your laney up like that is that you won't have a heavy sound, since it's only two channels.
That's why i like amps to have 3 channels (or more, lol)- clean, just breaking up, and headbang!
-
yer thats why i like my crate so much... so much more than my laney in fact....
what would something like a gt-8 e.t.c work best with- laney (i.e valve) or crate (i.e solil state)?
-
yer thats why i like my crate so much... so much more than my laney in fact....
what would something like a gt-8 e.t.c work best with- laney (i.e valve) or crate (i.e solil state)?
Suck it and see. ;)
I used a valve power amp hoping it would warm the sound up a bit. Not sure if it really worked or not, but I was quite heppy with it for a while. Right until I tried the JMP1 through the poweramp in fact. ;)
Muttley
-
yer thats why i like my crate so much... so much more than my laney in fact....
what would something like a gt-8 e.t.c work best with- laney (i.e valve) or crate (i.e solil state)?
yeah, like muttley says, you'd need to try it (i said try, not buy, lol!)
some amps work well with some pedals/fx, and others don't, even really, really good amps are like this, lol.
-
if your happy with the crate amp then keep it and use it more. 65watts is more than enough to gig with, plus if its not, the venue will mic it up. stop lusting over unnecessary gear :wink:
-
im keeping the crate anyways,,,,, but im gonna sell the laney.........
thats how i was gonna fund any new gear i gonna get....
annd i WILL get some new gear.... :lol: i just dunno what its gonna be yet
-
I wouldn't sell anything until you're sure what you want to get.
If you end up being able to afford a fantastic high gain all-tube metal amp, the laney might be handy to have if that amp's clean/classic rock tones aren't great...
-
true... true....
ahhhhh too much thinking to do....
-
One thing to keep in mind with modelers, at least with the Pod, is that the sound you're hearing is supposed to the sound of a miked amp. Which is not what you're used to hearing when playing your amp, unless you happen to lie on the floor with your ear pressed up to the grill. And if I'm not mistaken Meshuggah used the Pod Pros exclusively live until recently switching to one of the Line6 amps. Not sure about the studio though.
-
ahhhhh didnt know that ^ !!!!!
so what difference does that make tonally then????
-
It's just that normally you're listening to your amp and it's 3 feet below your head, or you may be across the room. Where the Pod is going to give you the sound the mic picks up right next to the cone, which is very handy for recording. It's just something to be aware of.
-
ok cheers...
in band practice we've tried rasing my amp on top of a chair and it sounds wayyyy better.... much more cut...
so this could be a good thing i guess
-
I was just listening to the clips on this (http://www.brunetti.it/products.php?prodID=5&lang=EN) site and now I want a new amp, too! :?
-
The beauty of a good modeller is that you get a little bit of everything, and in the process you'll learn what kind of tones you like. When the time comes it'll makes choosing the right valve amp a little bit easier.
i totaly agree, and it wont be long because you will realise all the tone your missing
-
lol searcher theyre pretty damn cool those brunettis... not the kind of tone im after but cool non the less.
go buy one.... now...NOW!
im gonna try some modellers and some amps cause i really wanna see this difference between valve and digital that i havent really experienced yet
-
all this stuff about crowds not being able to recognise a good tone... i totally disagree!
its true a random crowd won't recognise if you nail a particular tone - either someone elses or one you had in your head.
but they will surely recognise if it sounds good... and they will recognise if your playing your heart out because you're really into it.
-
agree with you completely mate... thats what i was saying about peoples logic not making sense:
crowds cant tell difference but modellers are cr@p and only good for direct recording.....
doesnt make sense...
any way, yer i agree with you, but i think theres a certain standard of tone/sound you have to reach and from then on not many people will recognise a difference...
-
For home-recording without waking the neighbours, modelling is great. You just plug in and go at a moment's notice and you sound pretty good, really. What's not to like?
For live work at the gigs-in-pubs/small-venues level, I'd vote for a good valve combo that fits easily in a car seat or boot and a handful of pedals to go with it. If one can't afford an all-valve number, then I think the Laney hybrids are excellent value for the money. Anyway, the keys are: Simplicity and transportability. And relative resistance to spilling beer and falling bass cabs. ;)
(Heck, if I were a big major-label, touring musican, I'd have a giant stack o' doom for gigs, but still a Pod or something for the bus and the hotel! :))
-
EXACTLY,
"If I was a signed recording artist on wortld tour", course would have a gigantic rig, free probably too.
But young Sam here is primarily a bedroom player and a jammer.
His band (so said) is not gigging yet.
He will be able to keep one amp.
A modellor will be able to supply him with a range of effects and also amp models.
This will be very handy/nice in his circumstance (remember all his, "cannot crank these amp" threads).
It's all very well (no-one in particular alluding to here) bleeting on about "pro" and "vintage" gear and "what will work best in a Arena setting" etc. Alot here, no matter age, will never get there or even aspire too.
In my opinion alot of people are becoming either elitist or dreaming.
I personally have a GT8. Is it the be all and end all? NO
When I get back to UK I am buying an Engl. To be "trendy"? NO. Cos I believe in their tone and build quality and it's in my price range (I am a 36yo adult and not a student).
How many of you gave up on somthing, wether when you were younger or not, because you got "bored"? Know I did.
Some kind of "solid state" effects/modelling device may indeed be very useful to Sam, not just because of it's choices but because (in this ultra high busy hustle bustle day and age) it will provide him alot of things to keep him interested and learn more about music/guitar.
Anyway, it's great debating/discussing the merits and dreams of certain gear. I just think we should keep in context what the person asking is really needing and more importantly can best afford :)
-
^that's true dakine.
as i've said before, he just needs to try them all to see, lol.
-
thanks for all the input guys...
and i know keep saying this but i WILL try stuff soon... hopefully ill be able to try some (not all) of this stuff on wednesday (although i might not be able to).... if not then, then it'll be some time this week....
and ill get back to you guys once i have....
-
I was in a similar predicament years ago Sambo. I really wanted a Mesa Boogie but didn't even have half as much money as I needed. I went to the music store looking to buy a 5150 head instead. When I was in the shop the sales guy invited me to try the Line 6 Flextone. I tried the Mesa Boogie setting and... it rocked! Was it as good as the real thing? Almost certainly not but to me there in the music store it sounded freakin' awesome. Then I dialed in a Fender tweed and had lush clean tones. Dialed in a matchless for a great slightly dirty sound. I threw various effects down and they all sounded great. So... instead of the Valve 5150 I walked out with a Line 6. 8 or 9 years later it's still my live amp.
However, I've recently acquired something even better. Guitar Rig 2. The sound reproduction is incredible. Noticably better than my Flextone. It sounds so "tubey" it's not funny. It's incredibly responsive to guitar dynamics and I know I would not be able to tell the difference between a real tube rig and Guitar Rig 2. One mitigating factor is I have an Art tube preamp in front of the Guitar rig 2 signal and that may contribute to the tube like feel.
For recording guitar on computer, I cannot recommend Guitar Rig 2 strongly enough. My Nailbomb order came in at the U.S. reseller finally so I should finally have my Nailbomb in a week or so and I'll work up some courage to make a clip.
Back on topic, I play professionally and use a modelling amp. Sound guys love it, it's so easy to mic and sits well in the mix. It doesn't sound as good as the real thing but it's in the ball park and also gives you a TON of options. The caveat here being I've been a solid state guy from Day 1 and have always been used to that sound. I love tube amp sound but I think the newest modelling amps come really close and give you much more versatility in the bargain.
If I had unlimited money I'd be hard pressed to decide between a Mesa Boogie Roadking, an Engl powerball or a Line 6 Vetta II.
That's my 2 cents Canadian.
-
^ interesting...!!!
i see...... hmmmmm
so how would a modelling AMP compare to a multi-fx/modeller like the POD XT live or something? is the flextone on a par with the POD?
-
Sam,
flextone is an AMP, think $$$$. Pod is a lil plastic bean, think $.
You are veering off track young Jedi :)
-
The new Pods are actually better than my Flextone as mine is the 1st edition Flextone that only had 16 amp models. The Pod and newer Flextones have 32 and are more accurately modelled. Pods sound great but you also need a relatively transparent amp to run them through.
The Flextone III would have the same tones as the Pod but come in an amp format, with a higher price tag.
The Spider series are cheaper but I wasn't as impressed with their sound in the store. (That may have been my inability to get a good sound in the few minutes i had though).
The Vetta II costs as much as a Mesa Boogie.
Does this help?
-
teehee
i know flextone is an amp.... but i mean... may not be such a bad idea...
something to look into anyway...
interesting to know differences in sound.... and cost as well
EDIT: yes! sure does help thanks.... so in theory..... POD + keyboard amp = same tone (or maybe 'better') than your flextone.... (or at least VERY similar) which = VERY good (in your opinion for what you need anyway)....
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
-
The Spider series are cheaper but I wasn't as impressed with their sound in the store. (That may have been my inability to get a good sound in the few minutes i had though).
Nah, I wasn't impressed either and I owned one for a couple of years.
-
Another thing with the modellers is that they're constantly being improved. If you buy something now, it'll be obsolete pretty soon and worth very little.
It's not like an old Fender/Marshall amp or whatever that just sounds different (JCM800 vs DSL for example). With modellers, the old models aren't as good a copy, so the new ones will always be "better".
Worth considering...
-
yer i see your point twinfan....
hmmmm
-
EXACTLY,
"If I was a signed recording artist on wortld tour", course would have a gigantic rig, free probably too. But young Sam here is primarily a bedroom player and a jammer. His band (so said) is not gigging yet. He will be able to keep one amp. A modellor will be able to supply him with a range of effects and also amp models. This will be very handy/nice in his circumstance (remember all his, "cannot crank these amp" threads). [...] Anyway, it's great debating/discussing the merits and dreams of certain gear. I just think we should keep in context what the person asking is really needing and more importantly can best afford :)
Good points, well made! So that said, if I were a bedroom player with a not-yet gigging band ... mmm, I guess it depends on the circumstances a bit, like, obviously to rehearse with acoustic drums you need [i[some[/i] kind of amplification. For flexibility at the bedroom/small rehearsal level, I think it's tough to beat a digital modeller that you can run into a PA or perhaps one of those Atomic amps (http://www.atomicamps.com/) that are designed to couple with modellers.
But perhaps budget is the real question here? A new POD has gotta be GBP 250 and those Atomics are gonna run GBP 450ish, while something like a Laney hybrid combo will do you good cleans and distortions, has a headphone jack for quiet practice, and should be under GBP 200. You can't beat that either!
I'd be a little leary of an all-in-one modelling amp simply because, as pointed out, modellers will improve and (I'm guessing) "vintage" amp models will not attract as much resale value as a vintage valve amp. Of course, people pay silly money for "vintage" drum machines from the '80s that sound, IMO, as terrible now as they did then, but can't be beat if you wanna nail that retro-80s drum machine sound (for some reason). So maybe in 20 years people will want to nail that early 2000s digital amp sound? Weirder things have happened.
Still, in the meantime, I think the situtation calls for something not unreasonably expensive but that is still one of: a) easily upgradeable , b) usable until it falls apart, or c) still saleable in few years when you want to change over to something else and need a little cash boost for your G.A.S.
-
thanks carlaz, good stuff.....
well.... maybe if i keep the laney i have at the mo.... that will serve as my investment, and hold its value....... (ish)....
and also, upgrading stuff.... things like the POD have patches and new packs which upgrade it..... obviously i dunno how long they'll continuing making them but its a good thing to have....
and makin gthings obselete, well its the norm with everything hi-tech nowadays... and i dont care about having the original xbox for example even if the new one is glossier and does more stuff..... see what i mean?
what im saying is... i think i can cope with not having the latest gear, as long as im happy with what ive got.
duability wise.... i think most of the modellers (gt-8, PO XTL, tonelab) are metal and pretty strong and my laneys as tough as nails so im ok there.
its the first point- the re-sale value of things which probably worries me the most..... cause i think your right about modellers not holding there value as well.... but then i may not want to sell it in the future... and when i decide i want, say, and ENGL.... i can keep the modeller exclusively for home use and band practice e.t.c......... and for general fun as well.....
and if i sell the modeller to buy an ENGL i may discover that i dont like the ENGL anymore and go back to modeller ... see?
-
Yeah modellers are fun to play around with the effects late at night through headphones or whatever, my V Amp 2 has some crazy patches that could well scare small children/animals :twisted:
-
well.... maybe if i keep the laney i have at the mo.... that will serve as my investment, and hold its value....... (ish)....
Yeah, I still have an old Marshall 8080 Valvestate in the US that I would certainly use if I was back there. It sounded fine, basically, and I'd only replace it if I went all-tube.
They dinnae have amp modellers when I were a lad, an' all that, up the hill both ways, etc. ;)
and also, upgrading stuff.... things like the POD have patches and new packs which upgrade it..... obviously i dunno how long they'll continuing making them but its a good thing to have.... and makin gthings obselete, well its the norm with everything hi-tech nowadays [...] its the first point- the re-sale value of things which probably worries me the most..... cause i think your right about modellers not holding there value as well.... but then i may not want to sell it in the future... and when i decide i want, say, and ENGL.... i can keep the modeller exclusively for home use and band practice e.t.c......... and for general fun as well.....
Line6 seem pretty good at providing updates, but hey, modellers are basically computers. So: they'll keep providing backwards compatible upgrades until they need to make a big enough hardware change (new chips or something) that it's no longer easy/efficient to make backwards compatible software/firmware.
But you're right about the key issues of usability: today's digital modellers aren't bad and will a current POD still sound mostly OK to most people in 10 years? Sure. Will modellers sound better in 10 years, eh, very probably. Will they sound better enough that you care? Well, that's a G.A.S. issue as much as anything else :)
I have it in mind to get a POD for home recording stuff, though I haven't got room in the budget just yet. What would be really cool would be if there was a Line6 plug-in for GarageBand/Logic that would let me run a dry guitar signal into GB but then digitally offload that to a POD-like hardware unit for effecting, then run the wet output back to GB without changing the dry signal recorded on the GB track -- essentially using the POD-like hardware to do the work of CPU-hogging GB/Logic amp sims. That would get you the better sound of the POD's amp models without sacrificing a) the recorded dry signal, so you can change the amp sound later, and b) crunching up onboard CPU with all the amp model processing. Wicked! But I digress ..... :roll:
-
Unfortunately, the person who posted about Modelling amps not holding their value was dead on the money. The resale value of my Line 6 Flextone is certainly less than if I had bought that 5150. Then again they made a 5150 II didn't they, so maybe they aren't worth as much either?
Then again, mine has served me well for almost a decade. Would I have liked the newer versions? Yes, but there's nothing wrong with what I've got.
-
Unfortunately, the person who posted about Modelling amps not holding their value was dead on the money. The resale value of my Line 6 Flextone is certainly less than if I had bought that 5150. Then again they made a 5150 II didn't they, so maybe they aren't worth as much either?
I've heard a lot of people say they prefer the 5150 to the 5150 II...
-
Sequels are never as good as the original movies.
What were we talking about again?
-
Flaming V's of course :P