Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Dave Sloven on February 20, 2018, 08:04:00 AM
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I am looking at acquiring a relatively rare but inexpensive guitar via a trade.
The Stiletto-6 FR was offered in Schecter's Diamond Series in 2008 and features a mahogany body with a lacewood top, and a bolt-on maple neck with a rosewood fingerboard. The stock pickups are EMG passives (HSS configuration - EMG HZ H4/S-1/S-1) and it has the licensed version of a Floyd Rose tremolo that comes with Schecter's cheaper/older Diamond Series trem guitars. I am mainly looking at it for a cheap guitar with a floating tremolo that could easily be converted to a better quality trem (e.g., Gotoh) later if needed. From what I have been told these trems are not too bad, better than the cheap Ibanez trems and a lot of the trems that used to come on the cheaper Jacksons and Kramers.
I am wondering what suggestions people might have for pickups. My main guitar is an Epiphone Explorer with a Nailbomb set. I am looking to use this Schecter in the same tuning (and in the same band) for songs that require a tremolo on leads. I want a bridge humbucker that is great for lead work. I am also curious regarding suggestions for single coils.
My band plays a kind of blackened sludge doom metal in C standard tuning (two full steps down).
There aren't many videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNcV91ptB9U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toFPZkKhSgk
The one I am looking at is not the dark colour in those videos, it is amber.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/3wEAAOSwODFacDDu/$_20.JPG)
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I think HD would work perfectly.
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I have long been curious about the alnico Black Hawk. Does anyone know what it is like for lead work?
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I do. Holy diver does it better IMO.
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i will continue with my newly established tradition of militantly recommending the juggernaut. does doomy sludgy stuff really well
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HD is the best choice IMO. Juggernaut sounds too modern.
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HD is the best choice IMO. Juggernaut sounds too modern.
Have u played it or are u basing this on sound clips? Because when I was looking at pickups i had many an inaccurate preconceived opinion on the juggs
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I haven't played them, but the fact is, they sound more modern than HDs.
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I would be looking for something that in this 25.5" scale bolt-on maple neck and mahogany body / lacewood cap body would be in the ballpark of the A-bomb in my Explorer, but a bit nicer on leads. Nothing too vintage or too 'nice' ... my impression of the Juggernaut is that it can be a little too polite by comparison with the A-Bomb. That's why I was thinking the A-Hawk but videos of it are really scarce on youtube, most of them are C-Hawks.
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HD can actually sound really aggressive, even more than A-hawk I'd say.
Blackhaws are quite a bit different than most other BKPs. They are more compressed (and even because of the blades).
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I’ve played both the HD and Juggernaut, so I’ll weigh in. The HD is definitely more vintage voiced and can be pretty aggressive, it also works great in guitars with Floyds and has a great lead tone. It could be a very good option, only thing is I don’t have experience with a HD tuned that low (I’ve only messed with it in standard tuning). The Juggernaut is more modern, but I was very surprised by its tone. It is very versatile and can do everything from clean to ultra high gain. It handled drop C really well. It’s tighter than the HD, but that isn’t to say the HD isn’t tight because it is. I don’t know if the Juggernaut would be the right call here because it is lower output than the Nailbomb and not as aggressive as even the HD. It is a really good pickup though, and I think the advent label turns people off, but it does so much more than that.
With a Strat type guitar with a Floyd, it is going to have less inherent low end compared to an Explorer. The HD fattens up a Strat nicely, but what about a Warpig? I haven’t tried them in a super Strat, but I’m considering putting one in a really bright super Strat that I have. I know you have experience with Warpigs, and they should work for the style you play. That huge bottom end might be the ticket for getting a super Strat to sound like an Explorer with Nailbombs (though I have not yet tried a Nailbomb and don’t own an Explorer, so this is just a guess).
For the singlecoils, what are you looking to get tonally from them?
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I can vouch for HD in low tunings. It handles modern drop B metal and stays pretty tight.
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yeah from what ive heard tightness isnt a problem with the hd. Nolly swears by the holy diver/vhii combo (at least he used to recommend them a lot, dont know if thats changed)
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Did you consider the Miracle Man too?
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Miracle man in a strat isn't too similar to a NB in an explorer IMO.
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I'm talking about the Schecter.
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Miracle man in a strat isn't too similar to a NB in an explorer IMO.
I am still getting my head around this guitar. It is mahogany so not quite the same a strat. It does have the bolt-on neck though which tends to favour the Holy Diver.
I haven't pulled anything out yet but when I do I will check whether long leg pickups will fit in the bridge slot (I'm not optimistic). If they do I can test An A-Pig and a Miracle Man in it, just borrowing them from my SGs
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Here are some photos of the pickups, cavities, etc
You can definitely fit a long-leg Gibson style humbucker into it. That means I could test my A-Pig, A-Bomb, Miracle Man, and Cold Sweat to see how they sound.
It has 500K Alpha pots, with a 5-position switch. Shared volume and tone.
I gave it a good clean, restrung it, adjusted the Floyd Rose (the claw needed adjustment), and tuned it today. I also moved the bridge pickup up slightly. We'll see if that makes it sound better!
(https://i.imgur.com/nvgJSS4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/L0RByXi.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/F2AxHFc.jpg)
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The EMG-HZ in the bridge has ice pick highs and is quite sterile sounding. I'm not sure if that is a general problem with this pickup or it reflects the fact that it is in this particular guitar.
The neck single coil is too bright. I would prefer a darker neck pickup.
I personally find the middle pickup to be kind of useless. I am tempted to delete it
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The EMG-HZ in the bridge has ice pick highs and is quite sterile sounding. I'm not sure if that is a general problem with this pickup or it reflects the fact that it is in this particular guitar.
The neck single coil is too bright. I would prefer a darker neck pickup.
I personally find the middle pickup to be kind of useless. I am tempted to delete it
Strat scale length and a Floyd Rose both in my experience make a guitar brighter than Gibson scale and a TOM/wraparound bridge, so the guitar could be inherently bright especially compared to your Explorers. I haven't played EMG-HZ pickups, so I do not know if they tend to sound harsh though. I will be interested to hear your thoughts on which Bare Knuckles you like in the guitar. It's a very cool looking instrument.
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Replace that licensed floyd man!
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Yeah until I have the new FR it will be hard to tell what the guitar might sound like with new pickups.
My first priority is to replace the Schecter licensed FR with a Gotoh, with brass block and Gotoh locking nut, and possibly a Tremol-No to make string changes easier.
I would use the Gotoh studs and keep the standard long Gotoh lock screws, and just have it routed to fit. Any routing at the bridge would be minor. I would also have it routed for a neck humbucker at the same time. After playing the guitar for a while I am not sold on the HSS config. I don't like middle pickups much, and the neck single coil is too bright for me. I am starting to think that an Impulse set might be a good option in this guitar at C standard tuning.
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My tech strongly advised against routing for a neck humbucker, said it would change the sound of the guitar too much. Advised me to install a single-coil size humbucker in the neck slot and simply remove the middle pickup
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Or a cobra neck :wink:
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Replace that licensed floyd man!
I replaced an LFR bridge on a guitar. Put a Schaller in it and replaced the block with a KCG 5/8' brass block. The difference was night and day, but it is not cheap if the bridge does not retrofit to the rout. In my case, the new bridge fit and I was lucky that the holes in the body where the right size to mount the new studs and sleeves.
Based on my experience, I would NEVER recommend buying a project guitar that has a FR Style locking trem system. It is simply too potentially expensive.
Dave, if you are in the US, Stew Mac has great prices on Schaller bridges. You will have to check the fretboard radius and see how it compares to the bridge radius. I had to use saddle shims do dial in my action for my schaller bridge. The guitar has a 16" radius and I believe the Schaller was 10".
I also recently replaced the Flat Plate style bridge on my RG7421 with a Hipshot FP style bridge designed to retrofit to this guitar. With a hard tail I was not expecting as dramatic of a tonal change as what I got with the other guitar. Truthfully, I was expecting a minor change but it was also fairly dramatic. Comparable to replacing pickups, IMO. I suspect that any part that directly influences the vibration pattern of strings is massively important in sustain and timbre.
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The guy I am going to is quoting me $120 for installation and setup, including routing, which is only $20 more than what most shops charge for setting up a FR guitar. He is a great luthier (not just a tech) and his attitude was "I've known you for a long time Dave, I'll look after you man" ... he plays in metal bands and has set up a lot of Floyds since the '80s so I trust his abilities with what it a relatively simple job for someone with experience like his. He is at least 40km from my house and I could have gone somewhere closer but he is a metal guy and lives right in the heart of Pantera fanboy territory here so I figured he must have set up loads of Floyds!
I am thinking alnico Black Hawk plus a Cobra or the special-order Impulse single coil in the neck, with the middle pickup deleted and getting a new pickguard made (would be cheaper than a middle pickup!). I never use middle pickups and they are kind of in the way. I use the neck pickup only twice in our set now as it is.
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I replaced an LFR bridge on a guitar. Put a Schaller in it and replaced the block with a KCG 5/8' brass block. The difference was night and day, but it is not cheap if the bridge does not retrofit to the rout. In my case, the new bridge fit and I was lucky that the holes in the body where the right size to mount the new studs and sleeves.
Based on my experience, I would NEVER recommend buying a project guitar that has a FR Style locking trem system. It is simply too potentially expensive.
I have already bought the Gotoh GE1996-T bridge and FGR-2 nut from Philadelphia Luthier's Supplies in the USA and just waiting for them to arrive here in Australia. All up including install and setup it will cost me less than AU$400 (roughly US$300)
As I think I said above I didn't actually pay money for the guitar, I picked it up through a trade for some pedals. Of the four pedals one had a fault (Polytune) and two others were proving hard to sell (volume pedal and compressor) - only the DD-7 was an easy sell. So I think I did pretty well. The alternative would have been to buy some $600 guitar with a horrible licensed FR like the one I've got - or alternatively the "OFR" 1000 series or Special series - and then do exactly the same upgrade to get to a good guitar. And I still would have been stuck with those pedals! So I think I have done pretty well. Fitting a FRX to my Explorer would have cost more than that and I would have been stuck with an ugly bridge that doesn't work as well and only one guitar
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You are in awesome shape there. It's super nice to have a friend or someone with skill who can help. It'll make an enormous difference in the sound and functionality of the guitar. Swapping out the LFR for the Schaller was an immense upgrade on my 6 string and the 5/8" brass block was icing on the cake. I'm glad I did the upgrade!!
I'd suggest doing the upgrade on the bridge before swapping pickups. In my experience, the LFR bridges with the softer metal are quite low mid focused while with a high quality bridge, there is more of a full range frequency response with emphasis in the upper mids and the highs. To my ear, the stock brass block with the Schaller was quite zingy and particularly upper mid focused, while the KGC 5/8mm brass block was sweeter and more balanced sounding with even more sustain.
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Yeah I agree.
I will upgrade the bridge and have the setup done and then swap pickups from my other guitars in and see which ones I like best. I have an A-Pig, a Cold Sweat, an A-Bomb, and a Miracle Man. As the CS is not in a guitar at the moment I'll try that one first but I suspect it will be the least suited. Thankfully the cavity is deep enough to run long legs at the bridge position so I can use the pickups from my Gibsons for testing, even though (besides the MM) they are 50mm spacing. Trying four different BKPs will give me plenty of reference points when I come back here and ask for opinons
I will also get one of those tremolo stops, not to block the trem for playing so much as to make string changes and pickup testing easier. If I am paying someone to set it up I want a means to keep that setup right
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I forgot about the Ragnarok.
From what I have read and heard it seems like a Miracle Man with more mids, and has similar soloing ability to the MM bridge
I think the main ones I am considering are the A-Hawk, Juggernaut, and Ragnarok. This guitar will be mainly used for lead parts in recording, and used live for songs that require a tremolo. So I need a bridge pickup that is very good on leads. This tends to lead me to move away from pickups like the Nailbombs and Aftermath. The Painkiller I suspect might be too abrasive in this guitar. I am looking for darker tones really.
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Probably rags id say. Ive heard a lot about sharp treble from a-hawks. Juggs are really uncompressed, i reckon rags would be a bit easier for leads with a bit more bite and power
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I forgot about the Ragnarok.
From what I have read and heard it seems like a Miracle Man with more mids, and has similar soloing ability to the MM bridge
I think the main ones I am considering are the A-Hawk, Juggernaut, and Ragnarok. This guitar will be mainly used for lead parts in recording, and used live for songs that require a tremolo. So I need a bridge pickup that is very good on leads. This tends to lead me to move away from pickups like the Nailbombs and Aftermath. The Painkiller I suspect might be too abrasive in this guitar. I am looking for darker tones really.
I really think the Holy Diver is worth considering for what you’re looking to do. It is a fantastic lead pickup and works really well in Super Strats. It isn’t the darkest pickup, but it does have a nice low end thump.
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I'll try all of my BKPs in it once I have it set up in C standard with the new trem.
MM, A-Bomb, CS, & A-Pig.
I'll note what I find appealing about each and/or annoying about each, and then I will have four baselines to present to you all. I think I am keen to get one that I haven't already tried, so that includes everything besides these and the Stockholm. I really like the Stockholm but I don't want to have to deal with the hum and anyway my Stockholm is a soapbar so I can't trial it in the Stiletto.
The Holy Diver is definitely another one I am considering.
The only ones I think I can rule out at this point are the Crawler, C-Hawk, Rebel Yell, Aftermath, and C-Bomb. While the RY would probably sound great in my Explorer I think it might sound really shrill in this Stiletto. Testing the CS in it will give me more idea on that score. But generally I think it is good for me to be wary of the brighter pickups. I am avoiding the Crawler simply because of its looser, less metal rep. The C-Bomb seems to be BKP's worst lead pickup so I will definitely avoid that, although I am curious as to how the A-Bomb will sound in it.
The humbuckers I am considering are the Holy Diver, A-Bomb, Impulse, A-Hawk, Juggernaut, Miracle Man, and Ragnarok.
In terms of single coils the ones that interest me most are the Cobra, Sinner, and Slow Hand.
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Probably rags id say. Ive heard a lot about sharp treble from a-hawks. Juggs are really uncompressed, i reckon rags would be a bit easier for leads with a bit more bite and power
Like Miracle Man is my favorite bridge pickup for soloing and Rags seem to be boosted MM, I would be careful when it comes to Rags lead sound.
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I'll try all of my BKPs in it once I have it set up in C standard with the new trem.
MM, A-Bomb, CS, & A-Pig.
I'll note what I find appealing about each and/or annoying about each, and then I will have four baselines to present to you all. I think I am keen to get one that I haven't already tried, so that includes everything besides these and the Stockholm. I really like the Stockholm but I don't want to have to deal with the hum and anyway my Stockholm is a soapbar so I can't trial it in the Stiletto.
The Holy Diver is definitely another one I am considering.
The only ones I think I can rule out at this point are the Crawler, C-Hawk, Rebel Yell, Aftermath, and C-Bomb. While the RY would probably sound great in my Explorer I think it might sound really shrill in this Stiletto. Testing the CS in it will give me more idea on that score. But generally I think it is good for me to be wary of the brighter pickups. I am avoiding the Crawler simply because of its looser, less metal rep. The C-Bomb seems to be BKP's worst lead pickup so I will definitely avoid that, although I am curious as to how the A-Bomb will sound in it.
The humbuckers I am considering are the Holy Diver, A-Bomb, Impulse, A-Hawk, Juggernaut, Miracle Man, and Ragnarok.
In terms of single coils the ones that interest me most are the Cobra, Sinner, and Slow Hand.
I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on each of your four Bare Knuckle humbuckers. I agree that the Crawler is the wrong choice here. To me, it is more of a vintage hot pickup rather than a contemporary pickup. I don't think it is aggressive enough or tight enough to do what you want. The only singlecoil I have used from Bare Knuckle is the Irish Tour neck (with the Holy Diver in the bridge), and I do not think it is the right choice for you, too vintage voiced.
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Looking at these demos I am starting to lean toward the Ragnaroks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GWw60VLqpI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B___tTa__qw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_LKpfDfgCU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaoMdmSLctE
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I've ordered a Black Hawk set with the alnico option together with a CRL 3-way selector switch, Jensen 0.022uf capacitor, and 550K CTS pots from BKP just before Easter. When they arrive they will be fitted to a new HH pickguard with new Gotoh knobs in Cosmo Black (in fact all hardware - tremolo, locking nut, tuners, knobs - have recently been replaced with new Gotoh items) and a black chrome on-on minitoggle for series/parallel wiring on the neck pickup. When the Gotoh GE1996T tremolo was installed last week the routing was also done for a neck humbucker.
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Just waiting for the Black Hawks to ship and arrive.
Stage 1 of this build is complete, so I might post a couple of photos that will be a nice contrast with those I get from Stage 2.
Here you see the routing that was done. A bit around the tremolo recess and block/arm cavity, and the neck single coil cavity enlarged to fit the Black Hawk neck. I think that in Stage 2 more routing will be required in the control cavity to ensure that the CRL switch, Jensen cap, and mini toggle all fit properly.
(https://i.imgur.com/OVMPUe1.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/gZCk3g1.jpg)
The rebuild is extensive, with very few of the original parts remaining except for the neck, frets, and body.
Stage 1:
DiMarzio Clip Lock strap system
Gotoh GE1996T tremolo unit (33mm Gotoh brass block)
Gotoh FGR-2 locking nut
Gotoh SG381-20 MGT Magnum locking tuners
D'Addario EXL117 11-56 strings (C standard tuning)
D'Addario ClipLock strap system
neck pickup rout enlarged for a humbucker
Stage 2:
Bare Knuckle Black Hawk pickups (alnico 5 magnet option in the bridge, black open coils)
CRL 3-way selector switch
Bare Knuckle/Jensen capacitor: 0.022μfd
Bare Knuckle/CTS 550K volume and tone potentiometers
New pickguard for HH configuration
Custom wiring, including an on-on mini toggle for series/parallel switching on the neck pickup
Gotoh VK-1CK-18 dome knobs for volume and tone pots
Switchcraft output jack
Gotoh oval output jack plate
All new pickguard, pickup, and output jack plate screws
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Looking good! This project is really coming along. I am interested to see the finished project and get your thoughts on the Black Hawks.
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Thanks! Will do!
Here for people who are considering changing a Schecter licensed tremolo out for a Gotoh GE1996T is the various areas that required routing. I should point out that the Gotoh is the best floating tremolo I have ever tried. The flutters you can get with this bridge are exceptional.
The green areas in the control cavity seen on the next photo are where I am thinking of removing wood to create room for the new PIO cap and a microtoggle. The red areas are where wood was removed to fit the new tremolo unit and a neck humbucker. All of the photos below are before the black paint and conductive paint were applied.
(https://i.imgur.com/M1JbToD.png)
If you look at the following photos it should be clear that a piece of wood was removed in the tremolo cavity near the arm bushing because the Gotoh bushing is twice as deep as the Schecter one. The cavity for the block was fine as the block is the same size, only brass. What we did was make the cavity the same size behind the arm bushing as it is behind the block. The recess on top of the guitar had to be made more square but the new tremolo is a bit narrower, so the black paint disguises that somewhat
(https://i.imgur.com/XN2JkMr.jpg)
Original tremolo sitting in the routed recess:
(https://i.imgur.com/0brfXXZ.jpg)
New tremolo:
(https://i.imgur.com/oXdeXkZ.jpg)
Before painting (we only routed it for short legs at the neck):
(https://i.imgur.com/zC7pwXP.jpg)
Here you can see the differences between the bridges. All of the hardware that came with the Gotoh bridge and nut were used, except for the string bar which did not fit. Gotoh locking tuners were also fitted.
(https://i.imgur.com/6lpnRB1.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/Zm5rARR.jpg)
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I just got the notification of dispatch, so I will be watching the postal tracking with anticipation!
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My Black Hawks, CRL 3-way switch, capacitor and potentiometers just arrived in the mail so I am off to see my luthier Steve Opitz very shortly!
(https://i.imgur.com/hXPc3fJ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0hvopT2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lM8qqwE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GyZwsZx.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/z485aBT.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1r6dsQc.jpg)
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I'm picking this one up from Steve later today. Here are some photos he sent me this morning of the Black Hawks, coil split switches, etc going in. Some more wood was removed to fit the coil split switches. We chose to install a treble bleed and Steve says that it all sounds amazing, including the coil split and when you roll the volume down. Active coils in splits are both toward the neck.
In Steve's words:
"The guitar sounds as good as anything I've ever heard, she's truly awesome"
"[The neck pickup is] Sweet and powerful even in single coil mode, the treble bleed works well too, so still bright and full when the vol is rolled off"
(https://i.imgur.com/HkNNWTG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7ThaRHz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/k63iame.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/SlmIDza.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/klR6YSE.jpg)
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Picked her up ... will have a fiddle tomorrow morning!
(https://i.imgur.com/oaOaeLl.jpg)
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First impressions of the Black Hawks:
More output than the Nailbombs, possibly more than the Warpigs. I haven't adjusted the height at all yet though. Coil splits are louder than I expected, clear though. Overall tone of the A-Hawk is more of a mid-range purr or growl rather than a raspy grind like the A-Bomb. I like them a lot, but I need to try moving the pickups up and down to see if I can optimise them, especially for clean playing as I think the neck might be a little high. The neck is certainly powerful even in split mode. Everything that Steve did works really well, the action etc is adjusted well, but I will use the screwdriver to adjust the pickups to get the best sound for me. It felt almost like the bridge pickup might be a little low on the bass side. Anyway I have tortured the neighbours and my ears enough for today (I only had one earplug in for much of it). I also need to get used to and find the best playing position for this guitar. It is a Strat format and I have certain habits developed from playing SGs, which are odd guitars. I need to move my arms across my body more to place the guitar more in the relative position that the bridge and high frets sit against my body with an SG, otherwise palm-muting and a couple of other things are too awkward.
Also this guitar is easily a match for the A-Bomb Explorer in the sustain and bottom-end aspects
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Just want to say that I am still really happy with the A-Hawk set.
I am considering buying a C-Hawk set for a Schecter C-1 Blackjack ATX that I have recently acquired, as it is a little bit darker acoustically than the Stiletto 6-FR. It came stock with a Seymour Duncan Blackout set