Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: timmy_pix on September 15, 2018, 02:29:42 PM
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Now that all but one of my guitars have BKPs, I'm growing increasingly dissatisfied with the one guitar that doesn't.
Before we get too into this, I've read through pretty much every thread on the forum regarding replacing JBs, and I know the outcome of this thread is most likely going to be the Holydiver. But as ever, it's always nice to discuss the other options and I like to as certain as I can be, so please humour me. Also apologies, I'm incapable of making short posts but hopefully it helps inform the discussion.
The guitar: LTD Ninja 600 Michael Amott signature (https://i.imgur.com/9ZR8mWH.jpg) (this might give a clue as to the sound I'm after)
Seymour Duncan JB in the bridge, 59 in the neck. Mahogany body, mahogany set neck, ebony board. Spec says quilt maple top but ESP are buggers for this and it's a veneer, but who cares. Acoustically quite balanced - compared to my Les Paul it's not got as much top end but it's got more in the mids; the low end response is very similar. So, balanced - not necessarily dark, but certainly not bright.
Seymour Duncan JB - what I like:
I love the way it screams on high notes. And I mean screams, this beautiful high mid wail that catches the tail end of notes in a way the Emerald and Mule in my other two guitars just can't match. I would hate to lose this screaming/singing quality, hence why I'm apprehensive about the change. I suspect the fact that it's a little compressed helps with this too, as for leads this pickup in this guitar sings.
..and what I don't like:
BKPs have spoiled me, basically. The upper mid prominence of the JB is quite harsh if I'm switching from another guitar to this one, and I find it a bit too compressed over all - great for leads but bugger all else. The low strings overpower the higher strings when playing chords thanks to a low-mid muddiness, and this muddiness robs it of aggression and composure for metal rhythm playing; going between my Mule-equipped PRS Bernie, Emerald-equipped LP and this guitar, the other two have much better defined lows and sound more aggressive, especially the Mule, weirdly! Outside of metal, I also find that it doesn't really play well with the volume control, and starts sounding thin when rolled down because all that's coming through is upper mids.
As for the 59 in the neck, I actually really like it. It's clear, has a pleasing mid scoop that creates a nice woody-sounding neck, and it's just a great sounding pickup. That said, if I'm replacing the bridge pickup then I can't help but be curious about neck options, especially as they're discussed less generally. I might just keep it and put a chrome cover on it (assuming it'll play nicely with whatever ends up in the bridge), but I'm definitely intrigued by the Holydiver neck - if anyone can tell me more about it then please do!
What sound/style am I going for/what do I want from a replacement?
As the guitar implies, I love Arch Enemy. Michael Amott used a JB/59 set for years before Dean started making him a signature pickup, and while their tone varies from album to album in terms of desirability, it's a good starting point and it's the kind of music I play on this guitar. Similarly Megadeth, Gojira, Lamb of God... note that all of these artists have used JBs until getting replacement signature pickups.
However, my favourite metal tone is Josh Middleton from Sylosis. Now, he's nominally an EMG man, but their second album was apparently all a JB-equipped ESP, and their third album was recorded mostly on a Gibson Les Paul Custom Axcess with a Holydiver in the bridge, and it sounds glorious (link) (https://youtu.be/tocEwt4HHOg).
What I'm after is a pickup that retains the singing/screaming quality of the JB, but improves everyting else. I want a more balanced and clear pickup that's thick and aggressive for playing metal rhythm, but that can also be dialed back without feeling like I've taken the wind out of its sails. I play classic/hard rock live mostly and the LP/Bernie cover that nicely, but I'd like to be able to use the Ninja if I wanted to without it being too much - not essential as the primary objective is metal, but it'd be a nice bonus.
Have I just described the Holydiver? I've seen it mentioned that it can be a bit too thick for darker guitars, but my guitar isn't necessarily dark, it just isn't bright. Apparently the Holydiver is less upper mid focused (phew), but can it still scream/sing? And how does it behave rolled down or with splits?
TL;DR: Is the Holydiver set what I want?
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Not sure if you described the Holy Diver. My first impressions were the Miracle Man.
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Yeah I would say that if you are looking for something between a Holy Diver and an EMG your choices are either the Miracle Man or the alnico Black Hawk. I have both of these. Of the two the Miracle Man is more subtle. The A-Hawk is thicker. Both are great lead pickups. Both are good in mahogany. The C-Hawk could also work but the A-Hawk has more of that HD vibe with a sweeter top end.
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Not sure if you described the Holy Diver. My first impressions were the Miracle Man.
Please could you go into this a bit more? How does the Miracle Man compare to the HD/JB? The impression I've gotten from the forum is it's aiming for an EMGish Zakk Wylde everything turned up to 100 kind of sound, which isn't really my thing.
Yeah I would say that if you are looking for something between a Holy Diver and an EMG
I'm really not! Not a fan of EMGs really, hence why I made a point of saying I preferred the non EMG Sylosis tones.
I'm just asking if the Holydiver will definitely solve the things I dislike about the JB while still keeping the scream and not being too thick for my guitar. I think I may have worded things poorly, so I apologise for any confusion.
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I was writing a post about the Rebel Yell set then I re-read the original post. I can't help but think Miracle Man as well.
[edit] Here is a youtube video of a tone with the Miracle Man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPjtspAW9KM
I think it will solve your upper mid problem and it will add some nice cut to your tone.
Just remember to swap out your Pots and Caps.
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So I've listened to that YouTube clip and gone back to the Miracle Man clips on the website... I have to say that while it sounds great, it seems to be the opposite of what I'm after in this application.
It just sounds too... ARGH!!!! for want of a better term, particularly in that YouTube clip. While it gets rid of harsh upper mids, it goes completely the other direction, with too much bass and not enough mids for my liking. I'm also generally not a fan of ceramics, I prefer the warmer/organic A5 character.
Can any Holydiver owners chime in on what the neck's like, and how the bridge gets on in mahogany? Does it still scream without being solely upper mids based?
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I'm honestly wondering what you'd think of the Alnico Nailbomb and Rebel Yell. Rebel Yell is super open and tight in the low end with a beautiful harmonic spread. Super wide pick attack too! Alnico Nailbomb is warmer, pissed off, saturated, and hairy. Maybe too extreme for what you want. People here say the Rebel Yell sounds like an old school JB while the Holy Diver sounds like a new school JB.
Here is a great demo. You'll a bunch of pickups back to back through the same rig. You can hear how dark the Holy Diver is compared to the Rebel Yell, which has more articulation and harmonics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ecekLV4yps
Miracle Man vs JB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYDaH6VRIhM
Some BKP demos. Holy Diver, Abraxas, VH2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evEXJK7JFso&t=3s
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Another Holy Diver demo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1zKH9xOcMc
You can get piles of tones out of these pickups, as you can with most.
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Thanks Yellowjacket - I have to admit that I'd gotten so wrapped in trawling forums that I completely forgot to check YouTube; obviously it's tough to find good quality examples but the ones you provided were great. Definitely reassured me that the Holy Diver is plenty versatile and still tight and screamy when needed. I am intrigued by the Rebel Yells but I think they'll have to wait for another guitar!
Nice that the Emerald was in that big bridge pickup shootout too for some familiarity.
I'd still like to know more about the Holydiver neck compared to the Duncan 59, but ultimately I think that decision might be made by whether a bridge or a set come up for sale used first!
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I came back from the dead (first post in at least 4-5 years, I think) just to tell you PLEASE DON’T.
You don’t want Holy Divers in that guitar, surely not for the tone you’re after. If you like JBs, but just would like them to sound better (more expressive, angrier yet sweeter in the high end) you’re basically describing a Nailbomb.
The bridge Rebel Yell has more high mids and more open and brilliant highs, at the expense of a less chunky low end. In my opinion the NB sounds not only more modern - with some added nastiness - but also more balanced. The ceramic option is great but maybe a bit too modern, tight and djenty for your needs.
I don’t really remember how the 59 sounds, but a neck Mule should be a perfect match... a Cold Sweat could be even better, and (while comparatively unremarkable) the neck Nailbomb is an excellent pickup too, if you like your vintagey neck pickup to be on the bright side.
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Regarding Nailbomb keep in mind that while it`s great rhythm pickup but it`s not that great on leads.
As a great rhythm pickup (and I`m talking about Ceramic version which I have) it has its limitations though. First of all in my experience it doesn`t handle low and dropped tunings that well, secondly it`s not really precise rhythm pickup so if you`re playing include complex and tight riffs, you might be disappointed. If your main aim is tight metal playing I would go Miracle Man or Cold Sweat (slightly more vintage sounding than MM) rather than Nailbomb.
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I came back from the dead (first post in at least 4-5 years, I think) just to tell you PLEASE DON’T.
You don’t want Holy Divers in that guitar, surely not for the tone you’re after. If you like JBs, but just would like them to sound better (more expressive, angrier yet sweeter in the high end) you’re basically describing a Nailbomb.
The bridge Rebel Yell has more high mids and more open and brilliant highs, at the expense of a less chunky low end. In my opinion the NB sounds not only more modern - with some added nastiness - but also more balanced. The ceramic option is great but maybe a bit too modern, tight and djenty for your needs.
I don’t really remember how the 59 sounds, but a neck Mule should be a perfect match... a Cold Sweat could be even better, and (while comparatively unremarkable) the neck Nailbomb is an excellent pickup too, if you like your vintagey neck pickup to be on the bright side.
I'd second that - in the right guitar the Nail Bomb is hard to beat. I have a couple of A5 Nail Bomb sets in different guitars and really like them, unlike the Holy Divers that I've also tried in different guitars and I've never really got along with. There's another comment questioning the ability of Nail Bombs in handling lower tunings - I know it's not very low, but one of my Nail Bomb equipped guitars is kept permanently tuned down 1 full step / 2 semitones to D Standard and I'm more than happy with it in there but that is a fairly neutral-to-bright guitar and I can see how it might not work so well in a warmer guitar (the Nail Bombs do sound very different in different guitars, and really show up their strengths and limitations).
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D standard is one step
I do have an A-Bomb in an Explorer tuned down two steps (C standard) in my Explorer though and it is fine. Might reflect the kind of music I use it for though (doom metal), which I don't think is very demanding regarding tightness
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I came back from the dead (first post in at least 4-5 years, I think) just to tell you PLEASE DON’T.
You don’t want Holy Divers in that guitar, surely not for the tone you’re after. If you like JBs, but just would like them to sound better (more expressive, angrier yet sweeter in the high end) you’re basically describing a Nailbomb.
The bridge Rebel Yell has more high mids and more open and brilliant highs, at the expense of a less chunky low end. In my opinion the NB sounds not only more modern - with some added nastiness - but also more balanced. The ceramic option is great but maybe a bit too modern, tight and djenty for your needs.
I don’t really remember how the 59 sounds, but a neck Mule should be a perfect match... a Cold Sweat could be even better, and (while comparatively unremarkable) the neck Nailbomb is an excellent pickup too, if you like your vintagey neck pickup to be on the bright side.
Sorry to be picky, but you haven't actually said why you don't think the Holydiver would be suitable – care to explain at all? You do seem to be going against the majority of posts on this forum so it'd be good to understand why before I decide. You say "not for the tone you're after", when a large part of the tone I'm after is an album recorded on a Holydiver.
My friend has an alnico Nailbomb in a Melody Maker and it's a little too hairy for my liking, and as others have said, not as singing a lead pickup. It's great fun, but I'm not sure it's what I'm after for this guitar/application.
I haven't tried a Rebel Yell, and I am considering it as a runner up to the Holydiver, but my worry is that it might have a bit too much going on in the upper mids rather than being slightly smoother. Much as I'm sure it can scream as well as if not better than the JB, I'm wary of it being too similar to the JB when I think I'm after a more polished/controlled JB; by most of what I've read, this would seem to be the HD.
I have a Mule neck and it's a very different pickup to the SD 59. I've seen slartibartfast42 sing the praises of the Holydiver neck, but there doesn't seem to be much other information, so I'm still after some more opinions on that pickup. I know the Emerald neck's a popular partner but I've already got one and I'd quite like to explore. After all, the calibrated sets are sets for a reason.
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I'm sticking with the Miracle Man suggestion. It's close to the Holy Diver but all of the ways it differs from the HD seem to be the direction you are looking to go.
I agree that the Nailbomb is hairy and is not the best lead pickup in the range by a long shot
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Nailbomb was my first BKP I bought, once I started using it, it was great until I bought second set for another guitar and started using Miracle Man. Miracle Man was real game changer for me, my favorite pickup so far, then I installed another Miracle Man in another guitar and the rest is history (meanwhile I got Cold Sweat too).
Long story short, I have mixed fellings regarding Nailbomb, in my eyes it could be an ideal pickup for recording second guitar, for doubling parts as it has its own thing going on. Actually I`m planning to use it this way in my next recordings while Miracle Man will at the front but if you`re looking for precision and riffing machine, from my experience you`ll be disappointed with Nailbomb.
I might be biased towards Miracle Man indeed, so you`ll have to trust your own ears too, but providing that your guitar is not really dark sounding MM might be the right choice.
Miracle Man is more versatile in my opinion that people might think. Recently I produced track with MM doing some bluesy/rock thing (check PLAYERS section, have 2 songs with MM). It has great leads, great rhythm abilities and I even like cleans on it too (more on modern side) plus it`s not extreme metal pickup at all, yes more towards metal but nothing crazy like Ragnarok I guess.
By the way MM neck is really underestimated, I wrote my review of that pickup recently, amazing set overall.
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Nailbomb was my first BKP I bought, once I started using it, it was great until I bought second set for another guitar and started using Miracle Man. Miracle Man was real game changer for me, my favorite pickup so far, then I installed another Miracle Man in another guitar and the rest is history (meanwhile I got Cold Sweat too).
Long story short, I have mixed fellings regarding Nailbomb, in my eyes it could be an ideal pickup for recording second guitar, for doubling parts as it has its own thing going on. Actually I`m planning to use it this way in my next recordings while Miracle Man will at the front but if you`re looking for precision and riffing machine, from my experience you`ll be disappointed with Nailbomb.
Nailbombs were my first bkp pups too and I sold them and never looked back. God knows I tried to like it. It was futile, as you said, it's the opposite to precision and not as good for riffs as others in the bkp catalogue. Plus, I had it on a 27 scale 7 baritone with walnut top and SS frets, everything adding a little bit more of shrillness to the trebblish character of the NB. Though I could stand riffs and chords, soloing was for me the worst part. Too much grind and hair. I love my juggs and cpigs though and I also agree about the great coldsweat. Now, let's see in a couple of months how I like the raggs that are to come.
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A-Bomb is great in a Les Paul. A 7 string baritone maybe is not the right wood for it.
My Les Paul has 11 - 52 strings and it is in half step down tuning. Eb Standard / Drop Db (C#).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97juia7do7w
I think a warmer, darker short scale 6 string is great for this pickup.
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I agree. The A-bomb works well in my Explorer (11-56, C standard). It was awful in my SG (9-46, E standard) though
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Today I`ve taken my CBomb equipped guitar out of case first time for at least 8 moths or so (as I pretty much only use Miracle Mans recently), put new strings on, checked the setup ect, played it for a good while and...
-I don`t think that it`s super versatile pickup, I find Miracle Man way more versatile.
-It`s hard to tame while playing due to it`s wild nature, it`s wild pickup for sure, hairy, compressed (feels more compressed that MM), it shows your sloppy playing and your mistakes more
-it`s not great on leads but that`s well known fact
-upper mids are wild and pronounced
-quite a lot bottom end (but guitar is dark sounding)
-It`s operating theritory is quite narrow music wise I think, pissed off punk rock, hard rock but with specific edge, sludgy doom metal ect (I`m not familar that much with those subgernes)
- I like how distorted chords sound with this pickup, would be great as second guitar doubling main riff
-not too bad cleans for ceramic
Basically it`s unique pickup with unique voicing, not sure either bad or good way, but for sure not very versatile. Might suit some type of music, but I think that window is quite narrow.
Specific pickup for specific task, definitely not every day go-to pickup
Would anyone agree, or it`s only my opinion?
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I've never used the ceramic version. I suspect that the alnico is better for lead work. Otherwise I agree
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I would take the Miracle Man over any Nailbomb. I admit I'm biased, I just don't like the NB.
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Today I`ve taken my CBomb equipped guitar out of case first time for at least 8 moths or so (as I pretty much only use Miracle Mans recently), put new strings on, checked the setup ect, played it for a good while and...
-I don`t think that it`s super versatile pickup, I find Miracle Man way more versatile.
-It`s hard to tame while playing due to it`s wild nature, it`s wild pickup for sure, hairy, compressed (feels more compressed that MM), it shows your sloppy playing and your mistakes more
-it`s not great on leads but that`s well known fact
-upper mids are wild and pronounced
-quite a lot bottom end (but guitar is dark sounding)
-It`s operating theritory is quite narrow music wise I think, pissed off punk rock, hard rock but with specific edge, sludgy doom metal ect (I`m not familar that much with those subgernes)
- I like how distorted chords sound with this pickup, would be great as second guitar doubling main riff
-not too bad cleans for ceramic
Basically it`s unique pickup with unique voicing, not sure either bad or good way, but for sure not very versatile. Might suit some type of music, but I think that window is quite narrow.
Specific pickup for specific task, definitely not every day go-to pickup
Would anyone agree, or it`s only my opinion?
I dunno. I have gotten lots of tones out of an A-Bomb. But definitely not great for cleans. It will cover a lot of ground in a Les Paul, especially tuned in e standard with 10 - 46 strings. Using a less modern amp also helps with this.
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I agree with Lucas in everything and I have the C-bomb, those happy with nailbombs always seem to own the Alnico version
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After 2 days of comparisons of my Ceramic Nailbomb with my other BKP equipped guitars I decided to replace NB with something else. I actually put the NB guitar away into case for months as I preferred other BKPs.
Don`t know what to replace it with yet, but after trying Miracle Man and Cold Sweat bridges Cbomb feels like a black sheep.
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I'm honestly wondering what you'd think of the Alnico Nailbomb
what I was thinking. A-bomb.
the RY can be a little too sharp. the HD is too soft.
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just make sure you have a proper boost pedal and the holy diver will scream like a chained priest being dragged on a river by the devil himself
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Well this went from a Holydiver thread to a Nailbomb thread. To reiterate, I like the Nailbomb but having played one it's not quite what I'm after.
just make sure you have a proper boost pedal and the holy diver will scream like a chained priest being dragged on a river by the devil himself
This sounds more like it! Have you played the neck pickup as well or just the bridge?
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just make sure you have a proper boost pedal and the holy diver will scream like a chained priest being dragged on a river by the devil himself
This sounds more like it! Have you played the neck pickup as well or just the bridge?
had it paired with the cold sweat, mule and emerald
haven't played the neck version