Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Andy RV on April 30, 2006, 09:39:20 AM
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Hey guys, i haven't posted for a while but anyways, this arived the other week from Japan.
Its a caparison Dellinger in Rose red.
Mahogany body,
Maple neck,
Bolt on,
Caparison pickups with coil split,
Schaller Floyd,
Ebony board with clock inlays coresponding to the fret number.
It really is amazing, the neck is the best i've ever had my hands on, super smooth and fast, flat in the right places, rounded in the right places.
The body is a bit thicker than most super strats i've tried out, this is good because it really makes it sound big, the contours (spelling?) are in the right places making it a joy to play.
The caparison pickups are great, they sound really good so they will be staying in for now.
The schaller floyd is just as good as the original floyd on my RV.
Here's some pictures:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Moonlitfire/Guitars%20-%20Amps/caparison003.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Moonlitfire/Guitars%20-%20Amps/caparison004.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Moonlitfire/Guitars%20-%20Amps/caparison005.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Moonlitfire/Guitars%20-%20Amps/caparison006.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Moonlitfire/Guitars%20-%20Amps/caparison007.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Moonlitfire/Guitars%20-%20Amps/caparison009.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Moonlitfire/Guitars%20-%20Amps/caparison008.jpg)
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that looks gorgeous. The inlays are sooo classy. Did it cost quite a bit for shipping?
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Thats a nice bit of wood you got there.
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Thats a nice bit of wood you got there.
haha, +1!
super strats rule.
:twisted:
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all i can think of when i see Caparison, is Mattias Eklundh! Good stuff! :D
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Looks really nice although I'm not much of a fan of the headstock.
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Very nice! How much was it?
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I'd like to know what one of these goes for too. I picked up Freak Guitar a few weeks ago, scary stuff.
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Caparison Dellinger (I've wondered for a while if this is a Japanese mistranslation of the Derringer gun, or perhaps even Rick Derringer?)
JPY210000, about GBP1050, not bad. Shipping and tax is going to add a fair bit I'd say but still a good price for a handmade guitar from a small company. I think they handmake the pickups too.
But Guitars are generally quite a bit cheaper over here, I saw a Music Man Petrucci 7 string for about GBP1300 recently, piezos and the funky mystic dream finish. maybe not the prettiest 7 string around but soooo comfortable to play.
Don't get me started on how cheap Ibanezs are, just see ibanez.co.jp and knock 10% off for the retail price. But then again a piece of cheese costs about 5 quid, you win some you lose some.
Andy
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Mine is actually second hand believe it or not, the original guy bought it then returned it to the shop 3 months after, it cost about £550 for the guitar, then £100 shipping and £150 import tax so £800 in total which isn't too bad considering it is in mint condition.
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I'd say you got yourself a deal!!
How's the sound? Caparison say they design their guitars to have quite a dark, mid heavy tone. Would you agree? I think the mahogany and Schaller FR would give that, the 24 3/4" Horus model (similar to the matthias eklund) perhaps even more so.
They make a 7 string Dellinger now too, I'd love to try one.
Andy
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Adam D from Killswitch Engage uses those guitars I think. His tone is awesome. Nice guitar. Great price for it too :D.
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Adam D from Killswitch Engage uses those guitars I think. His tone is awesome. Nice guitar. Great price for it too :D.
I was thinking the same, hawt shite man - i want clips!
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Adam D from Killswitch Engage uses those guitars I think. His tone is awesome. Nice guitar. Great price for it too :D.
most of that's from the amp though. on the end of heartache album they were using framuses.
I can pretty much nail it with an engl, and i don't have a caparison....
I also think the headstock is awesome, by the way.
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It sounds fantastic, its got a very balenced tone, plenty of mids and bass, treble is good as well, the pickup configuration makes it extremely versitile, especially with the coilsplit which you can split the bridge hum and the neck single which is stacked, so its like a humbucker.
Adam and Joel from killswitch both use caparison, Joel mostly uses the Dellinger and Adam use's one that can be seen in this picture:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Moonlitfire/cap047.jpg)
He also uses a Dellinger from time to time, both guitarist use EMG's, i'm not sure of what model emgs they are using.
With my Engl I can get a tone close to that of killswitch, although my marshall cab is letting it down so i'll be buying a Framus or orange cab soon.
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i was seriously tempted to get the 27 fret horus. I think in some ways it looks awesome, and the push-pull pup selector is cool. Just im not a huge fan of the inlays and headstock. Plus i just want the ESP SV so much more.
Sweet axe tho man
Petre
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watch out for orange cabs with the Engl. what head are you using?
A friend of mine used it with an Savage Se and didnt like the results. It sounds huge with the engl standard cab with v60s. Be sure to try it out.
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I'm using the Screamer head, I've heard good and bad things about the Orange cabs so i'm definatly going to try one out before I hand any cash over, another cab i'm looking at is a Framus, shame hardly any shops stock them though.. :(
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Here's my Deli (http://photos-g.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v171/62/42/605186775/n605186775_578510_2184.jpg)
I think the Bridge pickup and middle pickup are great, but I think the neck pickup is terrible. Other than that the guitar is my baby.
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That looks sexy for a superstrat. Caparisons seem to be very good shred/metal guitars.
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Caparison Dellinger (I've wondered for a while if this is a Japanese mistranslation of the Derringer gun, or perhaps even Rick Derringer?)
JPY210000, about GBP1050, not bad. Shipping and tax is going to add a fair bit I'd say but still a good price for a handmade guitar from a small company. I think they handmake the pickups too.
But Guitars are generally quite a bit cheaper over here, I saw a Music Man Petrucci 7 string for about GBP1300 recently, piezos and the funky mystic dream finish. maybe not the prettiest 7 string around but soooo comfortable to play.
Don't get me started on how cheap Ibanezs are, just see ibanez.co.jp and knock 10% off for the retail price. But then again a piece of cheese costs about 5 quid, you win some you lose some.
Andy
It does look like a pretty amazing 7 string, except maybe the headstock and inays, and I'm sure it plays beautifully.
Do ya think it'd be better than, say a Legra or feline custom 7 though?
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That looks sexy for a superstrat. Caparisons seem to be very good shred/metal guitars.
Yep, they have a great high mid tone for Metal--great under a load of gain.
But that's not the be all and end all, it is really versatile, of course the people that buy these guitars are more likeley banging out Sepultura than Rory Gallager :p
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MDV's not gonna like this thread. He doesn't like the Caparison he played. I've seen the TATII (holy shite) and some other Caparison, probably the Dellinger but I didn't have time to play (had to catch a flight)
I've been depressed ever since. :(
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It does look like a pretty amazing 7 string, except maybe the headstock and inays, and I'm sure it plays beautifully.
Do ya think it'd be better than, say a Legra or feline custom 7 though?
based on the, er, one i've tried of each (caparison and legra), i'd have to say the legra would be much better.
not to say caparisons aren't nice- at japanese prices they're nice guitars. Just (my) legra is in a different league.
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I haven't played a Legra but fair play they look like shitee :lol:
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played it. great guitar... from the 5th fret down ... horrible horrible neck shape at the nut..
but that's just me.
overall, very nice guitar.
but my charvel is better.. i know, cos i was offered this guitar as a trade :twisted:
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I haven't played a Legra but fair play they look like shitee :lol:
:o Careful now, Bob Johnson (Mr Legra) is a BKP forum member!
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I haven't played a Legra but fair play they look like shitee :lol:
:o Careful now, Bob Johnson (Mr Legra) is a BKP forum member!
I was going to say, but I didn't think he deserved warning with such bad taste :P
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I am sure they are fantastic instruments :P
I had a Horus model before this Delinger and tbh it had really cack attention to detail...
The trem route was really badly done and there was really bad(im talking an inch long) splinters that had just been painted over and a piece of wood was flapping in the wind on the base of the neck at the 27th fret.
I did a little reading and it seems that guitars pre 06 are different to those made after 06, they make them to artist standard or something.
It was nearly enough to put me off the brand.
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I haven't played a Legra but fair play they look like shitee :lol:
:o Careful now, Bob Johnson (Mr Legra) is a BKP forum member!
I was going to say, but I didn't think he deserved warning with such bad taste :P
My post would not have been changed by that information, or my opinion ;)
I haven't tried one, I am sure they are fantastic instruments, but the look does nothing for me
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I was only kidding mate ;) I haven't tried one either, but I'd really like to
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no prob :)
The body shape reminds me of an old yamaha model and I will be damned if I can remember the name....
I should get in touch with Jonathon at Feline about getting a bkp neck pickup that matches the other pickups in this guitar, the neck hotrail pickup lacks any clarity :(
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I haven't played a Legra but fair play they look like shitee :lol:
they're customs, you can get whatever shape you want...
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my god, thats sooo nice, as soon as i can afford a 3000 dollar guitar ill be sure to get a caparison, probably a translucent black angeus with an 85 in the bridg and an emg 60 in the neck
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my god, thats sooo nice, as soon as i can afford a 3000 dollar guitar ill be sure to get a caparison, probably a translucent black angeus with an 85 in the bridg and an emg 60 in the neck
Don't be too quick to go for a Caparison.
However *hermz has a Angelus with Warpigs in it, and it is a beauty.
(http://www.chaotek.com/guitars/angelus/angelus_warpigs_09.JPG)
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that's not mine lol :? i'm the one with the lilac ibanez s and the h&k warp x you wanted so badly (i'm selling it soon btw)
that guitar is hermz.
just to clear that up. (i would love that guitar though)
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Hermz sold it recently :(
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that's not mine lol :? i'm the one with the lilac ibanez s and the h&k warp x you wanted so badly (i'm selling it soon btw)
that guitar is hermz.
just to clear that up. (i would love that guitar though)
lol, cr@p I was thinking hermz and forgot to correct it. Sorry :oops:
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Here's my Deli (http://photos-g.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v171/62/42/605186775/n605186775_578510_2184.jpg)
I think the Bridge pickup and middle pickup are great, but I think the neck pickup is terrible. Other than that the guitar is my baby.
But now you're selling it already?
Or isn't that yours on ebay?
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It is mine yep :)
Sounds great has a guitar coming in a couple of weeks I must get my hands on(caparison)! Also, I hope to have a guitar in the works from a certain UK builder.
Too many guitars to get and not enough cash! 8)
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MDV's not gonna like this thread. He doesn't like the Caparison he played. I've seen the TATII (holy shitee) and some other Caparison, probably the Dellinger but I didn't have time to play (had to catch a flight)
I've been depressed ever since. :(
:lol: I wasnt gonna say anything: theres no need to badmouth a mans new guitar, and I only played one, and it wasnt this one.
But yes, my opinion based on that one is very low indeed.
And legra are incredible guitars, Bob is an extremely talented individual. Theres no comparison with caparison (based, as with dave, on the one of each I've played). I'm getting another :D
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WILL PEOPLE STOP COMPARING CUSTOM GUITARS TO PRODUCTION GUITARS.
Its getting on my bloody tits.
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WILL PEOPLE STOP COMPARING CUSTOM GUITARS TO PRODUCTION GUITARS.
Its getting on my bloody tits.
Probably not, no. Sorry.
The similarity of price pretty much demands it.
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Money isn't everything.
There's alot more to custom guitars than the price, not everybody is prepared to design a guitar, nor wait months to get it built. And don't forget, you are essentially buying unseen - Some people just don't like that.
There's an aura on this forum that its never worth buying a production guitar over £1200, because Custom Guitars are OHZOMUCHBETA!!!
Production guitars can be brilliant guitars, and worth the price, if you like the guitar, and you're prepared to hand over the cash, that's all that should matter.
And MDV, Yes, you didn't like the Caparison you played, and neither did Dave, but even on this forum alone, I have read more people say they are great than say they are bad. Its like Marmite I guess.
And don't forget, we've all had the situation where you're in a guitar shop, and you pick up an axe which just speaks to you, on every level. A guitar which is so perfect for you that you buy it there and then, and never look back. Look at all the Miras being bought in similar situations recently. Surely that element of spontaneity and impulse, is something which can't be emulated with custom guitars.
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Money isn't everything.
There's alot more to custom guitars than the price, not everybody is prepared to design a guitar, nor wait months to get it built. And don't forget, you are essentially buying unseen - Some people just don't like that.
There's an aura on this forum that its never worth buying a production guitar over £1200, because Custom Guitars are OHZOMUCHBETA!!!
Production guitars can be brilliant guitars, and worth the price, if you like the guitar, and you're prepared to hand over the cash, that's all that should matter.
And MDV, Yes, you didn't like the Caparison you played, and neither did Dave, but even on this forum alone, I have read more people say they are great than say they are bad. Its like Marmite I guess.
And don't forget, we've all had the situation where you're in a guitar shop, and you pick up an axe which just speaks to you, on every level. A guitar which is so perfect for you that you buy it there and then, and never look back. Look at all the Miras being bought in similar situations recently. Surely that element of spontaneity and impulse, is something which can't be emulated with custom guitars.
Keep yer nickers on noodle. A guitars a guitar, and customs dont have magical powers. The reasons that a lot of people like them are:
You get what you want
You get a greater degree of assurance of high quality from an expert hand-build.
Of course money isnt everything, but its a pretty big factor, and when you get up to around a grand or more then custom guitars and production guitars are direct competitors. Of course opinions and buying-styles will vary, we've been through this many times, but the fact that they are head-to-head remains.
Your opinion is duly noted, but its not going to have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not I, for one, choose to talk about custom and production guitars in the same breath. Its perfectly appropriate.
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I dont want to be caught in the crossfire but I agree with alot of what Noodle is trying to say.
You have made your opinion on Caparison very well known and anyone wanting to know it or find out what you think about Caparison can use the search function.
As I said in the last thread, you probably played a pre 06 non artist and as I said then, alot of your claims would be justified, also I said that I imagine you would have a different opinion playing a new model.
Every post 06 Capa is assembled, painted, wired up and set up by the same guy and the QC is great. The body and neck are still CNC'd in the Lida factory.
Bottom line is, if your not a modern metal guy, chances are your not going to get it, these guitars are so niche toward the metal scene it's not funny, they arent ment for SRV licks.
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I dont want to be caught in the crossfire but agree with alot of what Noodle is trying to saying.
You have made your opinion on Caparison very well known and anyone wanting to know it or find out what you think about Caparison can use the search function.
As I said in the last thread you probably played a pre 06 non artist, and as I said then alot of your claims would be justified, also said, I imagine you would have a different opinion playing a new model.
Every post 06 Capa is assembled, painted, wired up and set up by the same guy and the QC is great. The body and neck are still CNC'd in the Lida factory.
Bottom line is, if your not a Metal guy, chances are your not going to get it.
These guitars are so niche toward the metal scene, they arent ment for SRV licks.
Oh, I fully accept, and have made explicit, the caveat to my opinion that its based on one guitar.
Your guesswork about that guitar (pre 06) is likely wrong, since it was in 08 and it was being sold as new. But nonetheless, its just one guitar. Its certain that, as a production instrument, there will be better quality models available (and I should hope so too! That one was terrible).
I also appreciate the desire to rationalise purchases we've made, both production and otherwise ;) (i.e. we're all very much more likely to think better of what we own than dont :P ).
Anyway, I'm not going to be cornered into justifying my stance on this any further, and I wont be prevented from talking about caparisons, just because I have before, and I'm not going to not compare customs to production guitars. Its frankly stupid not to.
The discussion is open, all thoughts welcome, though.
Wouldnt be much of a discussion forum if we all thought the same things, now, would it :wink:
Edit: oh, and, metal? Nah I wouldnt have any interest in that, its all just noise, innit, modern or otherwise ;)
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There are going to be plenty of production guitars out there which match what a custom builder can make, and if you're in a shop and find that one - Don't let anyone tell you about how shallow production guitars are compared to their custom superiors.
That's all I'm trying to say - I guess I didn't really make my point clear.
It just annoys me this whole, "You have £1500? I don't even know why you would consider anything other than a Feline/Legra/Wez etc". Yes you are going to have quality guaranteed, but if you find a production guitar which is well built then why does it matter ><
And now I stop :p
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I dont want to be caught in the crossfire but agree with alot of what Noodle is trying to saying.
You have made your opinion on Caparison very well known and anyone wanting to know it or find out what you think about Caparison can use the search function.
As I said in the last thread you probably played a pre 06 non artist, and as I said then alot of your claims would be justified, also said, I imagine you would have a different opinion playing a new model.
Every post 06 Capa is assembled, painted, wired up and set up by the same guy and the QC is great. The body and neck are still CNC'd in the Lida factory.
Bottom line is, if your not a Metal guy, chances are your not going to get it.
These guitars are so niche toward the metal scene, they arent ment for SRV licks.
Oh, I fully accept, and have made explicit, the caveat to my opinion that its based on one guitar.
Your guesswork about that guitar (pre 06) is likely wrong, since it was in 08 and it was being sold as new. But nonetheless, its just one guitar. Its certain that, as a production instrument, there will be better quality models available (and I should hope so too! That one was terrible).
I also appreciate the desire to rationalise purchases we've made, both production and otherwise ;) (i.e. we're all very much more likely to think better of what we own than dont :P ).
Anyway, I'm not going to be cornered into justifying my stance on this any further, and I wont be prevented from talking about caparisons, just because I have before, and I'm not going to not compare customs to production guitars. Its frankly stupid not to.
The discussion is open, all thoughts welcome, though.
Wouldnt be much of a discussion forum if we all thought the same things, now, would it :wink:
Edit: oh, and, metal? Nah I wouldnt have any interest in that, its all just noise, innit, modern or otherwise ;)
You would not know what year the Capa was born unless you had the serial, your guess that it was post 06 is just as much guess work, unless it was Cranes where they sell a handfull of Capa's a week chances are that it was an older one.
FWIW I have no "desire" to justify anything, when I want a change of pace I sell my gear and buy something else, I dont have the space and only do amateur studio work so I personally can't justify having a host of guitars.
Im selling some gear now because I want to put some money Jonathans way as I have heard so much praise from this forum.
I didn't mean to make you feel cornered and you are right about forums and opinions.
R.E Metal, I can only assume from your signature your being sarcastic. 8)
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Aaaaaand relax.
People are always going to compare guitars, whether their comparisons are valid or not. The point I wish to make about custom vs production is this: in many cases, you cannot find a production guitar that meets the criteria you desire. I find myself in this very position. It's likely that the only route open to me to get the guitar I really want is to go custom.
Of course, if I were to do that, I couldn't validly compare the custom guitar of my dreams with any production guitar, because there is no production guitar I've come across yet which meets my "ideal guitar" criteria!
And custom, by its very nature, means you get aspects of the guitar that you like, therefore any comparison made by someone with a custom is probably (but not always) biased to some degree, and should be taken as such.
But anyway, if I had £3000 pounds to spend on a guitar, I know what I'd do with it and I'm not telling you lot - look what happened in this thread already! :)
Roo
EDIT: PS Phil: don't go there :D
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long post coming up, sorry...
And legra are incredible guitars, Bob is an extremely talented individual. Theres no comparison with caparison (based, as with dave, on the one of each I've played).
wow, try saying that fast ("comparison with a caparison"). :lol:
agreed though. And i liked (just thought it was too dear for what it was) the caparison i tried.
Your opinion is duly noted, but its not going to have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not I, for one, choose to talk about custom and production guitars in the same breath. Its perfectly appropriate.
agreed.
price IS the main thing, though. that's the point. People say "such and such a guitar is great" and what's implied is "for the cash".
like, for example, a yamaha pacifica is generally considered to be a good guitar, because it's a decent guitar for not much cash. if it cost the same as a tom anderson, would people be rushing to buy them?
it's the same with everything, it's how good it is for the cash. "for the cash", whether said or not, is normally implied.
There are going to be plenty of production guitars out there which match what a custom builder can make, and if you're in a shop and find that one - Don't let anyone tell you about how shallow production guitars are compared to their custom superiors.
That's all I'm trying to say - I guess I didn't really make my point clear.
It just annoys me this whole, "You have £1500? I don't even know why you would consider anything other than a Feline/Legra/Wez etc". Yes you are going to have quality guaranteed, but if you find a production guitar which is well built then why does it matter ><
And now I stop :p
you're missing the point. I expect more than "well-built" from a £1500 guitar. Sorry.
I haven't tried every guitar out there; far from it.
However, from what I've tried, the only guitars I've tried which even come close to my legra were a tyler HSS super strat (at £2700- and that was for a bolt-on... at the time i got my quote for my legra, i could have had a similar-spec legra for about £900-£1000, with BKPs), and a nik huber at about £3500. Ridiculous prices, in other words, when you can get a custom for a lot less, which is exactly what you want.
Oh, and some patrick eggles. but they don't make those any more (at least as well as they made the 90s ones).
I'm well aware that there's a wait involved, and it's not easy to wait that long. But having done it, i'm convinced that I wouldn't spend more than about £600 on a production instrument... any more, and you're not a million miles off a custom (especially if that production instrument needs upgraded pickups etc.), and I just plain haven't tried a production instrument around the prices of a custom which comes anywhere close...
we aren't saying that a custom is as good as a well-built production line guitar. we're saying it's miles better. for less money. and it's exactly to your spec. the only downsides are the wait, and the fact that you have to buy something you haven't tried. obviously if those are enough to put you off, that's fair enough.
And I'm certainly not trying to say that Lew shouldn't have got a caparison. i didn't even mention it in this thread till someone else brought it up. he (as is everyone else) is entitled to buy what he likes. Just like we're entitled to our opinions. FWIW, as i already said, I liked the caparison I tried.
PS- mark plays mainly modern metal. I don't play only metal, but i certainly am not only playing srv licks (though i do that too). my legra was specced as a "metal" guitar. as was mark's, i think.
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perfection is a funny thing, some people will find it in production guitars and good for them - they can go and buy a guitar of the shelf and not have teh painfull waits
Roo says he isnt happy with anything so needs to go custom - i dare say when he has that special guitar which suits him much better it may not suit a lot of other players
so yeah, i wouldnt say go custom because its going to be perfect or hundreds of times better quality than any factory guitar- go custom because you want something that is individually shaped to fit you ... starting from the initial wood selection right down to the final set-up
I make guitars by hand, not by computer controlled robots and i am not going to claim perfection
to quote tom anderson (who actually use CNC to roughly copy hand carved 'imperfect' neck contours)
*in the pursuit of perfect hand-sanding and finishing, numbers are accurately approximate
i love that term 'accurately approximate' - :D
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we aren't saying that a custom is as good as a well-built production line guitar. we're saying it's miles better. for less money. and it's exactly to your spec. the only downsides are the wait, and the fact that you have to buy something you haven't tried. obviously if those are enough to put you off, that's fair enough.
Here's where we disagree. I've played a fair share of custom built guitars, and they have all been pretty damn good, and I have played plenty of production guitars, some have been bad, some have been good, and some have been superb. The superb ones for me easily competed with the custom built guitars I've played.
And for less money? Again debatable. I've played 80s Charvels, and a couple of Ibanez/ESP axes which totally outplayed anything I've ever touched since.
None of these are particularly expensive axes, and none of them are much higher than the cheapest customs you'd find.
In my eyes, there is no argument whether to go for a Custom or a Production guitar, its totally your choice.
Only if you do go for a Production guitar, make sure you get a good one.
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Threadnomancy is a dark art and should not be practiced!
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But anyway, if I had £3000 pounds to spend on a guitar, I know what I'd do with it and I'm not telling you lot - look what happened in this thread already! :)
Roo
EDIT: PS Phil: don't go there :D
I won't. :wink:
On custom vs production, I don't own any custom guitars so I'm not going to get into the argument over which is "better" (but surely it's impossible to generalise anyway, custom builders can't all be equally skilled). I agree with Roo (I'll say that again, I agree with Roo :lol: ) that the best reason for going custom is if you want something with a set of specs that's not available in any production instrument.
price IS the main thing, though. that's the point. People say "such and such a guitar is great" and what's implied is "for the cash".
...we aren't saying that a custom is as good as a well-built production line guitar. we're saying it's miles better. for less money.
The value-for-money aspect is relative, though, surely. Suppose your dream guitar, with the exact specs you want (whatever they may be, it doesn't matter) is going to cost you £2,000 as a custom build.
That will certainly be significantly cheaper than a similarly-spec'd Suhr, Tom Anderson, Tyler or Nik Huber, as you said. On the other hand, it could be as much as, or more than, a similarly-spec'd PRS or Gibson - which makes the choice less simple (I know someone will come in now and say there are no good Gibsons or PRSs, but... whatever :roll: ). If you find a production guitar that ticks all your boxes, why not go for it?
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I dont want to be caught in the crossfire but agree with alot of what Noodle is trying to saying.
You have made your opinion on Caparison very well known and anyone wanting to know it or find out what you think about Caparison can use the search function.
As I said in the last thread you probably played a pre 06 non artist, and as I said then alot of your claims would be justified, also said, I imagine you would have a different opinion playing a new model.
Every post 06 Capa is assembled, painted, wired up and set up by the same guy and the QC is great. The body and neck are still CNC'd in the Lida factory.
Bottom line is, if your not a Metal guy, chances are your not going to get it.
These guitars are so niche toward the metal scene, they arent ment for SRV licks.
Oh, I fully accept, and have made explicit, the caveat to my opinion that its based on one guitar.
Your guesswork about that guitar (pre 06) is likely wrong, since it was in 08 and it was being sold as new. But nonetheless, its just one guitar. Its certain that, as a production instrument, there will be better quality models available (and I should hope so too! That one was terrible).
I also appreciate the desire to rationalise purchases we've made, both production and otherwise ;) (i.e. we're all very much more likely to think better of what we own than dont :P ).
Anyway, I'm not going to be cornered into justifying my stance on this any further, and I wont be prevented from talking about caparisons, just because I have before, and I'm not going to not compare customs to production guitars. Its frankly stupid not to.
The discussion is open, all thoughts welcome, though.
Wouldnt be much of a discussion forum if we all thought the same things, now, would it :wink:
Edit: oh, and, metal? Nah I wouldnt have any interest in that, its all just noise, innit, modern or otherwise ;)
You would not know what year the Capa was born unless you had the serial, your guess that it was post 06 is just as much guess work, unless it was Cranes where they sell a handfull of Capa's a week chances are that it was an older one.
FWIW I have no "desire" to justify anything, when I want a change of pace I sell my gear and buy something else, I dont have the space and only do amateur studio work so I personally can't justify having a host of guitars.
Im selling some gear now because I want to put some money Jonathans way as I have heard so much praise from this forum.
I didn't mean to make you feel cornered and you are right about forums and opinions.
R.E Metal, I can only assume from your signature your being sarcastic. 8)
Ok,
Just to note, I agree completely with dave. All what he says true, in my experience. I also cant disagree with the various statements by people that explain why they dont want to get a custom. Its all just whats right for you in the end on that one.
How likely is it that a guitar built in 06 or before took more than 18 months to make it to a shop for sale? Thats a very slow turnover and I'd have to question how they stay in business. Advertising and endorsments, I suppose. Passing off their best work to artists and sending the same/similar specs into produciton with lower quality standards (if any, given how bad the one I played was).
If the machinework of the guitar is still the same then it wont matter when it was mde, because that was the biggest problem with it. That and cr@ppy, unresonant woods.
I was suprised that the guitar was so bad, but I'm open to others being better: I even asked in the thread I made about it to see if there was a consensus that I got a bad egg. However, you've been 'defending' caparison against any negative experience of the guitars consistently. And you own one. It rather adds up, doesnt it? For the record I understand why youre doing it (you dont want to think the brand that makes your baby is sub-par or overrated) but its a bit of an affront to anyone thats made a different conclusion to brush away their experience (and there were several experiences in the thread I made that were very similar to mine) with the rather unlikely "oh, well that wasnt an artist model"
With regard to a comment in a previous post
As I said in the last thread you probably played a pre 06 non artist, and as I said then alot of your claims would be justified
I dont know why I didnt say anything about this before: Your on-paper, caparison-sales-pitch based 'justification' is so irrelevent its not even funny. The guitar in my hands at the time was cr@p, and you suggesting that it took nearly 2 years to get to the shop is a rationalisation. Most of all, though, my experience of it doesnt need to be 'justified' by aspects of the companies history. I can assess the quality of a guitar, thankyouverymuch.
I played a very bad guitar. It was made by Caparison. In all likelyhood it was made well after 2006 and It was shocking. Its not a personal affront to you, and you dont have to leap to the defense of the brand, nor attack any other.
In addition, yes, I am very into metal, and my legra (the MDV602: it, along with daves V, is on the custom page) is a metal guitar through and through, and I know how much of a fad and fashion accessory caparison are in the genre ;)
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Not sure its valid to say he's only defending them cos he owns one, he presumeably wouldn't have bought it if it was bad :p
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Threadnomancy is a dark art and should not be practiced!
:lol: +1
Slight threadjack, but it's a shame that the original author of this thread, Andy RV, doesn't post much anymore. He recorded a kick-ass Nailbomb clip in players which some boy genius panned :roll: & doesn't seem to have posted much since... :(
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Not sure its valid to say he's only defending them cos he owns one, he presumeably wouldn't have bought it if it was bad :p
I think it is. Sure: it certainly means that, if he got to play the guitar before he got it, then he thinks thats a good guitar, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt any day and say that, yes, Lews Deli (sounds like a take away!) is a good guitar.
Blanket defence of the brand after buying one, though, thats a different kettle of fish.
Something people need to get their heads around in this thread: we're dealing with a number of guitars (half of which in Daves post!) that you can count on one hand, and we havent all played all of them. To have an objective discussion that is a requisite. I might love caparison if I'd played Lews first, or I might hate them just as much, or Lew may be the guy that doesnt like them if he played the one I played.
Get it?
Every guitar is different.
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How likely is it that a guitar built in 06 or before took more than 18 months to make it to a shop for sale? Thats a very slow turnover and I'd have to question how they stay in business. Advertising and endorsments, I suppose.
Just to dive in on one point, how likely is that? VERY.
I've worked in 5 guitar shops. One of which was the highest turn over instument shop in the UK (I believe) another is probably top ten, every shop I've worked in has had loads of guitars in them that stay on the wall for months and months and in many cases years, especially expensive instruments.
Though, incidentally, I played a few Caparisons in GuitarGuitar Glasgow a year or so ago and thought they were garbage, but hey... :lol:
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How likely is it that a guitar built in 06 or before took more than 18 months to make it to a shop for sale? Thats a very slow turnover and I'd have to question how they stay in business. Advertising and endorsments, I suppose.
Just to dive in on one point, how likely is that? VERY.
I've worked in 5 guitar shops. One of which was the highest turn over instument shop in the UK (I believe) another is probably top ten, every shop I've worked in has had loads of guitars in them that stay on the wall for months and months and in many cases years, especially expensive instruments.
Though, incidentally, I played a few Caparisons in GuitarGuitar Glasgow a year or so ago and thought they were garbage, but hey... :lol:
Well thanks for the correction. Always glad to learn new shite (how long it would take to actually sell didnt really occur to me :oops: )
And we've got another assesment of some caparisons being garbage - but they were probably pre 06 :lol: :wink:
Actually a mate of mine really wanted one, badly, then he played it, made exactly the same assesment of whatever one he played as us - and his LTDs, that he loves, are mediocre at best, so by transit of property....you see what I mean.
I eagerly (well, not that eagerly, but anyway) await playing as many post-06 ones as I can :lol:
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MDV, you couldn't be more wrong in your assesment of me or my motivations if you tried.
I have no interest in having an argument with you (or anyone for that matter)and it's getting harder and harder to reply to you without dropping to your level.
Wipe the sand out of your vagina and P.M me if you want to continue this nonsenese.
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MDV, you couldn't be more wrong in your assesment of me or my motivations if you tried.
I have no interest in having an argument with you (or anyone for that matter)and it's getting harder and harder to reply to you without dropping to your level.
Wipe the sand out of your vagina and P.M me if you want to continue this nonsenese.
Congratulations on being the first person to bring personally affronting statments into the thread.
I've spoken to the best of my knowledge, and with consideration for your experience and point of view. Shame you couldnt manage as much :oops:
See you around the boards.
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sorry again for the long post...
Here's where we disagree. I've played a fair share of custom built guitars, and they have all been pretty damn good, and I have played plenty of production guitars, some have been bad, some have been good, and some have been superb. The superb ones for me easily competed with the custom built guitars I've played.
And for less money? Again debatable. I've played 80s Charvels, and a couple of Ibanez/ESP axes which totally outplayed anything I've ever touched since.
None of these are particularly expensive axes, and none of them are much higher than the cheapest customs you'd find.
In my eyes, there is no argument whether to go for a Custom or a Production guitar, its totally your choice.
Only if you do go for a Production guitar, make sure you get a good one.
can't really argue with that. I'd say that bringing up second-hand guitars (80s charvels) for price reasons is cheating, of course. :) I wouldn't exactly call ESPs cheap either, new they're normally over £1000, aren't they?
(a) On custom vs production, I don't own any custom guitars so I'm not going to get into the argument over which is "better" (but surely it's impossible to generalise anyway, custom builders can't all be equally skilled). I agree with Roo (I'll say that again, I agree with Roo :lol: ) that the best reason for going custom is if you want something with a set of specs that's not available in any production instrument.
price IS the main thing, though. that's the point. People say "such and such a guitar is great" and what's implied is "for the cash".
...we aren't saying that a custom is as good as a well-built production line guitar. we're saying it's miles better. for less money.
(b) The value-for-money aspect is relative, though, surely. Suppose your dream guitar, with the exact specs you want (whatever they may be, it doesn't matter) is going to cost you £2,000 as a custom build.
That will certainly be significantly cheaper than a similarly-spec'd Suhr, Tom Anderson, Tyler or Nik Huber, as you said. On the other hand, it could be as much as, or more than, a similarly-spec'd PRS or Gibson - which makes the choice less simple (I know someone will come in now and say there are no good Gibsons or PRSs, but... whatever :roll: ). If you find a production guitar that ticks all your boxes, why not go for it?
(a) agreed.
(b) also agreed. my argument is that a custom guitar costing around the price of the "lower" USA-made PRSs will likely be as nice as a nik huber costing twice as much (assuming, as you said earlier, that you picked a decent builder). Of course, if you'd prefer a PRS to the huber, it doesn't make much sense to go for the huber, as you've rightly said... :)
my big problem, to be honest, is the prices we have to pay for a lot of stuff over here... :(
Threadnomancy is a dark art and should not be practiced!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
MDV, you couldn't be more wrong in your assesment of me or my motivations if you tried.
I have no interest in having an argument with you (or anyone for that matter)and it's getting harder and harder to reply to you without dropping to your level.
Wipe the sand out of your vagina and P.M me if you want to continue this nonsenese.
I haven't played a Legra but fair play they look like shitee :lol:
you slagged off our legras long before we said anything derogatory about caparisons... (and i don't believe i have said anything derogatory about caparisons, other than their being too dear, which incidentally I believe about pretty much everything else for sale in the UK... :lol: )
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A custom guitar is a no brainer for me. Some of the brand names that have been mentioned here Tyler, PRS, Nik Huber ect are just that, names and for some reason people get sucked into this brand thing like some do with posh clobber like Jasper Conran or whatever.
Pound for pound what I'm paying for my Feline custom is mega value for a build quality that is fantastic. Our very own jt compared Felines fret jobs as good as Tom Andersons. Without the price.
This Caparison thing is just a fashion thing as far as i can see.
I've played loads of fancy guitars in shops and at the shows and after playing one of Felines lions, I couldn't give a monkeys about off the shelf big name guitars. You would still have to pimp them anyway!
:idea:
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you slagged off our legras long before we said anything derogatory about caparisons... (and i don't believe i have said anything derogatory about caparisons, other than their being too dear, which incidentally I believe about pretty much everything else for sale in the UK... :lol: )
I haven't tried a Legra, I was only talking the body shapes on the front page, but yea fair point, it was a daft comment.
Caparison isn't the only brand I own or enjoy fwiw ;) It makes up a small amount of my playing time, most of it is spent with a spanish acoustic at the moment ;p
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I would assume the resale value of a custom guitar would not be as good as the original price, for example, Ailean's Tabby...
A few customs would be nice as you have it playing exactly as you want, and a few production guitars would be good, as they will have different elements about them that you have to adjust to, making you a better player?
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I would assume the resale value of a custom guitar would not be as good as the original price, for example, Ailean's Tabby...
a very valid point!!!
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A custom guitar is a no brainer for me. Some of the brand names that have been mentioned here Tyler, PRS, Nik Huber ect are just that, names and for some reason people get sucked into this brand thing like some do with posh clobber like Jasper Conran or whatever.
No offence Johnny, but isn't that verging on reverse snobbery? Paul Reed Smith, James Tyler and Nik Huber aren't some kind of corporate whores, they are custom builders who, one way or another, hit the (relative) big time.
PRS is the biggest of those companies, but Paul Smith isn't swanning around on a yacht, he's doing nitpicky little things like putting brass posts on his tuners because they sound better than steel ones. And at "Experience PRS" he's acting as a bloody roadie!
Huber can charge more for his guitars than the custom builders we know because he's a "bigger" name, but I don't for a second think a three-grand Huber would be any worse than a Feline or Legra for half the price (and that's NOT meant as a put-down to Jonathan, Bob, Wez or anyone else). It's just market forces.
In slightly different circumstances, Jonathan might have half a dozen employees and be selling Felines for £3,000 - and we'd be going to Nik Huber for £1,800 custom builds. They're all in the same business, just at different points on the scale.
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A custom guitar is a no brainer for me. Some of the brand names that have been mentioned here Tyler, PRS, Nik Huber ect are just that, names and for some reason people get sucked into this brand thing like some do with posh clobber like Jasper Conran or whatever.
No offence Johnny, but isn't that verging on reverse snobbery? Paul Reed Smith, James Tyler and Nik Huber aren't some kind of corporate whores, they are custom builders who, one way or another, hit the (relative) big time.
PRS is the biggest of those companies, but Paul Smith isn't swanning around on a yacht, he's doing nitpicky little things like putting brass posts on his tuners because they sound better than steel ones. And at "Experience PRS" he's acting as a bloody roadie!
Huber can charge more for his guitars than the custom builders we know because he's a "bigger" name, but I don't for a second think a three-grand Huber would be any worse than a Feline or Legra for half the price (and that's NOT meant as a put-down to Jonathan, Bob, Wez or anyone else). It's just market forces.
In slightly different circumstances, Jonathan might have half a dozen employees and be selling Felines for £3,000 - and we'd be going to Nik Huber for £1,800 custom builds. They're all in the same business, just at different points on the scale.
+1
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A custom guitar is a no brainer for me. Some of the brand names that have been mentioned here Tyler, PRS, Nik Huber ect are just that, names and for some reason people get sucked into this brand thing like some do with posh clobber like Jasper Conran or whatever.
No offence Johnny, but isn't that verging on reverse snobbery? Paul Reed Smith, James Tyler and Nik Huber aren't some kind of corporate whores, they are custom builders who, one way or another, hit the (relative) big time.
My only gripe with this statement - and I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Huber or Tyler to comment on them specifically - is that the likes of PRS and Tom Anderson are NOT custom builders, they were once upon a time, but they are no longer hand built custom instruments at all, they are built by machines with little hands on building, none at all until the finishing stages with PRS, but they charge as if they are.
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A custom guitar is a no brainer for me. Some of the brand names that have been mentioned here Tyler, PRS, Nik Huber ect are just that, names and for some reason people get sucked into this brand thing like some do with posh clobber like Jasper Conran or whatever.
No offence Johnny, but isn't that verging on reverse snobbery? Paul Reed Smith, James Tyler and Nik Huber aren't some kind of corporate whores, they are custom builders who, one way or another, hit the (relative) big time.
My only gripe with this statement - and I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Huber or Tyler to comment on them specifically - is that the likes of PRS and Tom Anderson are NOT custom builders, they were once upon a time, but they are no longer hand built custom instruments at all, they are built by machines with little hands on building, none at all until the finishing stages with PRS, but they charge as if they are.
The Private Stock guitars certainly are custom, and are built by Paul and his team if memory serves.
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My only gripe with this statement - and I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Huber or Tyler to comment on them specifically - is that the likes of PRS and Tom Anderson are NOT custom builders, they were once upon a time, but they are no longer hand built custom instruments at all, they are built by machines with little hands on building, none at all until the finishing stages with PRS, but they charge as if they are.
OK, as you say, PRS aren't primarily custom builders - it's certainly not the core of their business. It's not economical to run a bigger company and cater to the needs of every individual customer. Whereas for a small builder each guitar's individual so it's as easy to build them all different as to build them all the same.
But I'd still contend that using CNC routers etc doesn't lead to a worse guitar - it gives precision and speed, but the final touches, done by humans, are still crucial. As for what they charge, it's a lot of money, but we pay a big premium on imported guitars in the UK. At US prices, PRS seem very reasonable compared with Gibson or Fender, their domestic competitors. It's all relative, and as I said before it's all down to market forces - ultimately they charge what people will pay for them.
Nik Huber - he has five builders and they turn out 120 guitars a year, "all hand crafted" according to their website. James Tyler - I don't know exactly how big his business is, but it was basically a small workshop; I read that he's had health problems and has scaled down production. John Suhr - has about 20 employees, they use CNC and a lot of hi-tech equipment but each guitar is hand-assembled by one builder.
My point was, these people aren't "the enemy", they're not "flavour of the month" companies. They're people who love what they do and care about their products and their customers. So OK, maybe you can't go to PRS and ask for a purple-metalflake Warlock copy with 4 humbuckers and a built-in beer cooler - but that doesn't make them inferior to custom builders.
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My only gripe with this statement - and I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Huber or Tyler to comment on them specifically - is that the likes of PRS and Tom Anderson are NOT custom builders, they were once upon a time, but they are no longer hand built custom instruments at all, they are built by machines with little hands on building, none at all until the finishing stages with PRS, but they charge as if they are.
OK, as you say, PRS aren't primarily custom builders - it's certainly not the core of their business. It's not economical to run a bigger company and cater to the needs of every individual customer. Whereas for a small builder each guitar's individual so it's as easy to build them all different as to build them all the same.
But I'd still contend that using CNC routers etc doesn't lead to a worse guitar - it gives precision and speed, but the final touches, done by humans, are still crucial. As for what they charge, it's a lot of money, but we pay a big premium on imported guitars in the UK. At US prices, PRS seem very reasonable compared with Gibson or Fender, their domestic competitors. It's all relative, and as I said before it's all down to market forces - ultimately they charge what people will pay for them.
Nik Huber - he has five builders and they turn out 120 guitars a year, "all hand crafted" according to their website. James Tyler - I don't know exactly how big his business is, but it was basically a small workshop; I read that he's had health problems and has scaled down production. John Suhr - has about 20 employees, they use CNC and a lot of hi-tech equipment but each guitar is hand-assembled by one builder.
My point was, these people aren't "the enemy", they're not "flavour of the month" companies. They're people who love what they do and care about their products and their customers. So OK, maybe you can't go to PRS and ask for a purple-metalflake Warlock copy with 4 humbuckers and a built-in beer cooler - but that doesn't make them inferior to custom builders.
I didn't mean to imply that they're worse. I did have a longer post about how I didn't consider hand building vs machines to be a better or worse route, but I felt I was waffling and edited it down. I have very expensive machine built guitars and I think they're smashing - but I was able to buy them at trade directly from their distributors at around £1000 off each time - boy, I'm gonna miss that now...
I just get irritated by machine builders pricing instruments as if they are labour intensive hand builds - and marketing material from PRS and Tom Anderson particularly are EXTREMELY misleading.
I've no doubt that when Paul Reed Smith builds a guitar himself, or one of his top employees does, they build a fantastic instrument, but that's not what you or I can buy, hell if we could it would be an astronomical price.
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I've no doubt that when Paul Reed Smith builds a guitar himself, or one of his top employees does, they build a fantastic instrument, but that's not what you or I can buy, hell if we could it would be an astronomical price.
A PRS Private Stock starts at about £10k.
People laugh at that price, but frankly, I think its fair enough, the amount of inlay work etc you see on those works and the fact that they are the utmost peak of guitar quality makes it fair enough.
Top violin makers have their work in 5/6 figures, don't see why top guitars shouldn't cost 5 figures aswell.
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I didn't mean to imply that they're worse. I did have a longer post about how I didn't consider hand building vs machines to be a better or worse route, but I felt I was waffling and edited it down.
Yeah, and I didn't mean to imply that you were implying that :wink: . Sorry.
We're going all over the place in this thread, and I for one am waffling like crazy.
All I really want to say is that there's no right or wrong, no better or worse. Let's not get hung up on brands or labels, machines or hand-tools. Everyone should be able to find their own "perfect" guitar, be it a Chinese Squier Strat or a custom triple-neck Moderne built from a 3,000-year-old giant redwood with platinum and mammoth ivory fret markers hand-inlaid by John D'Angelico, Les Paul and God.
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All I really want to say is that there's no right or wrong, no better or worse. Let's not get hung up on brands or labels, machines or hand-tools. Everyone should be able to find their own "perfect" guitar, be it a Chinese Squier Strat or a custom triple-neck Moderne built from a 3,000-year-old giant redwood with platinum and mammoth ivory fret markers hand-inlaid by John D'Angelico, Les Paul and God.
Exactly!
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I've no doubt that when Paul Reed Smith builds a guitar himself, or one of his top employees does, they build a fantastic instrument, but that's not what you or I can buy, hell if we could it would be an astronomical price.
Paul has said on many occasions that when they let him build a guitar now it usually doesnt pass QC... his early guitars which made him a big name wouldnt have passed the current QC either.
There is a builder in australia called Perry Ormsby who i suppose is on the cusp of the CNC debate. Perry's view on the growth of his business:
If i could build faster, we can put out more guitars. If my wait list was half as long (2 years right now), id sell three times more guitars Decided to get a CNC to help out, but it will only be used for the most basic stuff like logos, truss covers, and stuff like that. My assistant is just about ready to produce guitars from scratch, and I've just handed him his first full build
Got another new guy starting soon, part time.
If he went completely CNC now he could probably sell a lot more guitars and be more profitable... but what about all the innovations that doing stuff by hand allows him to achieve at the moment? what about the uniqueness of each of his guitars and how they are designed to fit the player? These things are harder to achieve when everything is locked down in lines of computer code and any change to that code means months of R&D rather than a few minutes with a spokeshave. Mass production brings standardisation which makes them no longer custom..
if you have a bit of time go here and watch perry's 13 video series on making a completely unique and new guitar design in 23 days - by hand!!
http://uk.youtube.com/user/rhoads56
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I've no doubt that when Paul Reed Smith builds a guitar himself, or one of his top employees does, they build a fantastic instrument, but that's not what you or I can buy, hell if we could it would be an astronomical price.
Paul has said on many occasions that when they let him build a guitar now it usually doesnt pass QC... his early guitars which made him a big name wouldnt have passed the current QC either.
There is a builder in australia called Perry Ormsby who i suppose is on the cusp of the CNC debate. Perry's view on the growth of his business:
If i could build faster, we can put out more guitars. If my wait list was half as long (2 years right now), id sell three times more guitars Decided to get a CNC to help out, but it will only be used for the most basic stuff like logos, truss covers, and stuff like that. My assistant is just about ready to produce guitars from scratch, and I've just handed him his first full build
Got another new guy starting soon, part time.
If he went completely CNC now he could probably sell a lot more guitars and be more profitable... but what about all the innovations that doing stuff by hand allows him to achieve at the moment? what about the uniqueness of each of his guitars and how they are designed to fit the player? These things are harder to achieve when everything is locked down in lines of computer code and any change to that code means months of R&D rather than a few minutes with a spokeshave. Mass production brings standardisation which makes them no longer custom..
if you have a bit of time go here and watch perry's 13 video series on making a completely unique and new guitar design in 23 days - by hand!!
http://uk.youtube.com/user/rhoads56
Great vids!!
What tool is he using to shape the midle part of the neck in vid 4?
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Paul has said on many occasions that when they let him build a guitar now it usually doesnt pass QC... his early guitars which made him a big name wouldnt have passed the current QC either.
That's true. Which is why Paul plays an off-the-shelf Modern Eagle rather than buld himself a guitar.
The early ones are a bit rough and ready too. Nice guitars by all accounts, but certainly not perfection.
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Paul has said on many occasions that when they let him build a guitar now it usually doesnt pass QC... his early guitars which made him a big name wouldnt have passed the current QC either.
That's true. Which is why Paul plays an off-the-shelf Modern Eagle rather than buld himself a guitar.
The early ones are a bit rough and ready too. Nice guitars by all accounts, but certainly not perfection.
That's actually pretty damn impressive :P
He's not even good enough for his own standards!
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Great vids!!
What tool is he using to shape the midle part of the neck in vid 4?
he roughs in either end with rasps then connects the dots with a spokeshave
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I think it was Organic guitars that was saying that when you use a CNC, you get a guitar shape out of it. That's about it though, it's just the shape and it's a bit rough-arsed. There's still plenty of work left to do.
Personally on the CNC side of things, I don't really care what is used for removing the wood that isn't guitar. It's what's left that counts and that goes far beyond the hand built or CNC'd debate.
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even longer post coming up... sorry again. At least we seem to be back to being civil, which is one of the cool things about this forum...
I haven't tried a Legra, I was only talking the body shapes on the front page, but yea fair point, it was a daft comment.
Caparison isn't the only brand I own or enjoy fwiw ;) It makes up a small amount of my playing time, most of it is spent with a spanish acoustic at the moment ;p
no problem at all :drink:
I would assume the resale value of a custom guitar would not be as good as the original price, for example, Ailean's Tabby...
that's another good point. when going for a custom, it does help if you're the kind of person who never (or at least rarely) sells stuff on. :)
No offence Johnny, but isn't that verging on reverse snobbery? Paul Reed Smith, James Tyler and Nik Huber aren't some kind of corporate whores, they are custom builders who, one way or another, hit the (relative) big time.
PRS is the biggest of those companies, but Paul Smith isn't swanning around on a yacht, he's doing nitpicky little things like putting brass posts on his tuners because they sound better than steel ones. And at "Experience PRS" he's acting as a bloody roadie!
Huber can charge more for his guitars than the custom builders we know because he's a "bigger" name, but I don't for a second think a three-grand Huber would be any worse than a Feline or Legra for half the price (and that's NOT meant as a put-down to Jonathan, Bob, Wez or anyone else). It's just market forces.
In slightly different circumstances, Jonathan might have half a dozen employees and be selling Felines for £3,000 - and we'd be going to Nik Huber for £1,800 custom builds. They're all in the same business, just at different points on the scale.
pretty much, yeah. i didn't like the huber i tried as much as my legra, but that was pretty much solely due to the neck profile- which i could have specced had i gone custom with huber (though that'd have probably cost 0.3% of our GDP... :lol: ).
i don't really have a problem with reverse snobbery, I admit i'm a reverse snob. I get perverse pleasure out of knowing i have nicer gear than a lot of people for less cash. at least there's a (vaguely) rational reason for reverse snobbery... all my japanese copies for not much more than the price of an epiphone each... seems pretty sensible to me! (and you have roughly 6 trillion japanese copies too, don't you philly? :) )
The Private Stock guitars certainly are custom, and are built by Paul and his team if memory serves.
yeah (as far as i know, anyway), but you also have to be a russian oligarch to afford them...
(a) But I'd still contend that using CNC routers etc doesn't lead to a worse guitar - it gives precision and speed, but the final touches, done by humans, are still crucial.
(b) As for what they charge, it's a lot of money, but we pay a big premium on imported guitars in the UK. At US prices, PRS seem very reasonable compared with Gibson or Fender, their domestic competitors. It's all relative, and as I said before it's all down to market forces - ultimately they charge what people will pay for them.
(c) My point was, these people aren't "the enemy", they're not "flavour of the month" companies. They're people who love what they do and care about their products and their customers. So OK, maybe you can't go to PRS and ask for a purple-metalflake Warlock copy with 4 humbuckers and a built-in beer cooler - but that doesn't make them inferior to custom builders.
(a) but it does lead (presumably?) to a cheaper guitar... and they aren't passing on the savings (to us in the UK, anyway).
(b) agreed, but being in the UK we're obviously going to judge them by UK prices... which are way too high. In my opinion, anyway.
(c) agreed.
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i don't really have a problem with reverse snobbery, I admit i'm a reverse snob. I get perverse pleasure out of knowing i have nicer gear than a lot of people for less cash. at least there's a (vaguely) rational reason for reverse snobbery... all my japanese copies for not much more than the price of an epiphone each... seems pretty sensible to me! (and you have roughly 6 trillion japanese copies too, don't you philly? :) )
Only 9... no, 8....... I think. :wink:
I wouldn't say I buy them out of any sense of one-upmanship over people with more expensive but (possibly) not-as-good guitars, though. I just buy 'em cos I like 'em. They're good value for money too, but I'd pay more (or less!) if I liked the guitar.
Anyway, not buying at the moment, I want to thin the herd... and then maybe get something custom. :)
but [CNC] does lead (presumably?) to a cheaper guitar... and they aren't passing on the savings (to us in the UK, anyway).
But it does also involve a BIG financial outlay to acquire the CNC equipment in the first place - a substantial risk which presumably takes years to recoup. And in PRS's case, they build almost all their parts and hardware in-house, plus it's entirely US-based so the property and labour costs must be very high.
It's pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if their profit margins are actually relatively tight. They probably make more (in % terms) on the SE range.
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(a) Only 9... no, 8....... I think. :wink:
I wouldn't say I buy them out of any sense of one-upmanship over people with more expensive but (possibly) not-as-good guitars, though. I just buy 'em cos I like 'em. They're good value for money too, but I'd pay more (or less!) if I liked the guitar.
Anyway, not buying at the moment, I want to thin the herd... and then maybe get something custom. :)
(b) But it does also involve a BIG financial outlay to acquire the CNC equipment in the first place - a substantial risk which presumably takes years to recoup. And in PRS's case, they build almost all their parts and hardware in-house, plus it's entirely US-based so the property and labour costs must be very high.
It's pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if their profit margins are actually relatively tight. They probably make more (in % terms) on the SE range.
(a) oh yeah, me too, of course i buy them because i like them. the fact they're (comparatively) inexpensive is the icing on the cake... :)
(b) yeah, that's true.
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I've no doubt that when Paul Reed Smith builds a guitar himself, or one of his top employees does, they build a fantastic instrument, but that's not what you or I can buy, hell if we could it would be an astronomical price.
Paul has said on many occasions that when they let him build a guitar now it usually doesnt pass QC... his early guitars which made him a big name wouldnt have passed the current QC either.
Really?
I'm surprised by that, given what I think of their current output, I'd imagine I'd find guitars he'd built himself to be quite awful and I always thought that he'd built his name on fantastic instruments.
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There can be a difference between a fantastic instrument and one that's good enough to pass a stringent QC standard ;)
Some guitars can pass both, lots of guitars can pass one or the other...
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I've got an axe here that probably wouldn't pass most peoples QC (not even Gibsons) and it's stunning. The absolute mutts nutts (or will be when I've got teh action right.
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There can be a difference between a fantastic instrument and one that's good enough to pass a stringent QC standard ;)
i think thats what i have been trying to get at, but somehow summed up into one sentence :? how do people do that :wink:
Tony Zemaitis is another whose handmade guitars might not pass PRS's QC... check out the prices they sell for. admitedly higher since his death but still at a crazy level when he was alive - they even have a museum in tokyo!!
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A custom guitar is a no brainer for me. Some of the brand names that have been mentioned here Tyler, PRS, Nik Huber ect are just that, names and for some reason people get sucked into this brand thing like some do with posh clobber like Jasper Conran or whatever.
No offence Johnny, but isn't that verging on reverse snobbery? Paul Reed Smith, James Tyler and Nik Huber aren't some kind of corporate whores, they are custom builders who, one way or another, hit the (relative) big time.
PRS is the biggest of those companies, but Paul Smith isn't swanning around on a yacht, he's doing nitpicky little things like putting brass posts on his tuners because they sound better than steel ones. And at "Experience PRS" he's acting as a bloody roadie!
Huber can charge more for his guitars than the custom builders we know because he's a "bigger" name, but I don't for a second think a three-grand Huber would be any worse than a Feline or Legra for half the price (and that's NOT meant as a put-down to Jonathan, Bob, Wez or anyone else). It's just market forces.
In slightly different circumstances, Jonathan might have half a dozen employees and be selling Felines for £3,000 - and we'd be going to Nik Huber for £1,800 custom builds. They're all in the same business, just at different points on the scale.
I've got nothing against those guitar builders Phil but they charge an absolute fortune, because of their name. That's why I would go with the smaller and just as skilled guitar builders and get something you want not what they have already made that costs 1800 2000 not 5000-10000. They charge what ever they like cos people are mug enough to buy them. Eg EVH and his 15000 Fender. A custom shop here could do that for 1500. Also as we or most of us in here own BKP's in all our guitars you would have to chuck what was in there and put what bare knuckle model you wanted, plus other things like strap locks and tuners, even after dropping 5000 on it.
I dunno to me its the most common sense purchase you can make when buying a high quality guitar but it seems lost on people with brand loyalty or those who just can't afford it!
Each to their own.
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Some people have a money-no-object approach and just want the best of the best, ala PRS Private Stock, Alembic, Conklin, etc.
These guys are doing frightening things with carvings/inlays and finishes that I would imagine most custom builders just can't do (correct me if I'm wrong Wez/Johnathan).
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There has been market research done that has proven that you can take two identical products - maybe with slightly different branding and sell them for very different prices
Put one up for sale at £2500 and the other for £5000
You would be amazed that many people will lust after the more expensive one simply because of it's perceived higher value.
This relates back to the same desires people have for Rolex watches and expensive cars .
Often it has little to do with the quality of construction and technological stuff and more to do with saying "Hey Baby - I'm loaded with money."
And when it's not about attracting the opposite sex it's about one-up-manship over peers and friends/rivals..
To be fair sometimes it is about the construction - maybe a Mercedes or a BMW is a great car to own and drive.
So maybe a small maker will discover that if he sells at £2500 rather than £5000 he doesn't have twice as many people buying the item or anywhere near that amount than if he sold for the higher price.
Maybe he has nearly as many customers at the higher price and making more margin on what he sells allows him to dedicate more time to each project and finesse the guitar to near perfection.
Maybe it means that he doesn't feel like giving up because he would earn more money per hour stacking shelves at Tescos
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There has been market research done that has proven that you can take two identical products - maybe with slightly different branding and sell them for very different prices
Put one up for sale at £2500 and the other for £5000
You would be amazed that many people will lust after the more expensive one simply because of it's perceived higher value.
This relates back to the same desires people have for Rolex watches and expensive cars .
Often it has little to do with the quality of construction and technological stuff and more to do with saying "Hey Baby - I'm loaded with money."
And when it's not about attracting the opposite sex it's about one-up-manship over peers and friends/rivals..
To be fair sometimes it is about the construction - maybe a Mercedes or a BMW is a great car to own and drive.
So maybe a small maker will discover that if he sells at £2500 rather than £5000 he doesn't have twice as many people buying the item or anywhere near that amount than if he sold for the higher price.
Maybe he has nearly as many customers at the higher price and making more margin on what he sells allows him to dedicate more time to each project and finesse the guitar to near perfection.
Maybe it means that he doesn't feel like giving up because he would earn more money per hour stacking shelves at Tescos
This is an extremely good point that applies to so many things (that we buy, obviously).
There is a greater assurance that comes with something expensive. You think, not actively, but the impression you have, is that the higher price is reflected in the quality and people seem to be remarkably good at fooling themselves that their LP or car or watch or toaster or whatever is better because its more expensive.
I know some people that are even well aware of this phenomenon that still allow themselves to fall victim to it. I've been told "I know its probably not better, but I feel better about something if it costs more".
Theres a similar logic to 'name' gear.
The effects add with expensive name gear. It triples with signature model expensive name gear.
The way I see it, you have to keep your assesments of anything objective. Evaluate the bit of kit right infront of you. Maybe you end up seeing that such-and-such £2000 big name sig guitar is actually really mediocre and the £200 obscure brand is pretty damn good.
I think that most of the time when people buy a thing they are as much buying a feeling of owning a name, or buying into an image as they are the actual object. If that name or image has selling power, then the price can be high and the product completely undeserving of it and people will buy it.
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I know some people that are even well aware of this phenomenon that still allow themselves to fall victim to it. I've been told "I know its probably not better, but I feel better about something if it costs more".
I think that most of the time when people buy a thing they are as much buying a feeling of owning a name, or buying into an image as they are the actual object.
I was going to say "well I would never do that", and it's true that I'm not particularly image-conscious and I couldn't give a monkeys about designer clothes, expensive watches and things like that. And I would certainly never buy something just because it was more expensive.
But then I thought about my Epiphone guitars - they're the Japanese-market ones with proper Gibson-shape headstocks, and that is one of the reasons I bought them. I wouldn't buy a Korean one, or even an Elitist, with the "wrong" headstock.
So I am a gear snob after all.... :oops:..... Bummer.
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Damn, I'm kinda glad I bought my LP before I started rationalizing it. :lol: I love it to death but I sure as hell wouldn't pay that much for a guitar now.
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This thread is a mess.
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This thread is a mess.
B..b..b..b....bigger boys did it and ran away!!
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This thread is a mess.
B..b..b..b....bigger boys did it and ran away!!
:lol:
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This thread has made my brain hurt.
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There has been market research done that has proven that you can take two identical products - maybe with slightly different branding and sell them for very different prices
Put one up for sale at £2500 and the other for £5000
You would be amazed that many people will lust after the more expensive one simply because of it's perceived higher value.
This relates back to the same desires people have for Rolex watches and expensive cars .
Often it has little to do with the quality of construction and technological stuff and more to do with saying "Hey Baby - I'm loaded with money."
And when it's not about attracting the opposite sex it's about one-up-manship over peers and friends/rivals..
To be fair sometimes it is about the construction - maybe a Mercedes or a BMW is a great car to own and drive.
So maybe a small maker will discover that if he sells at £2500 rather than £5000 he doesn't have twice as many people buying the item or anywhere near that amount than if he sold for the higher price.
Maybe he has nearly as many customers at the higher price and making more margin on what he sells allows him to dedicate more time to each project and finesse the guitar to near perfection.
Maybe it means that he doesn't feel like giving up because he would earn more money per hour stacking shelves at Tescos
good post. :)
I was going to say "well I would never do that", and it's true that I'm not particularly image-conscious and I couldn't give a monkeys about designer clothes, expensive watches and things like that. And I would certainly never buy something just because it was more expensive.
But then I thought about my Epiphone guitars - they're the Japanese-market ones with proper Gibson-shape headstocks, and that is one of the reasons I bought them. I wouldn't buy a Korean one, or even an Elitist, with the "wrong" headstock.
So I am a gear snob after all.... :oops:..... Bummer.
:lol: (*keeps quiet about the fact that my tokai goldstar has the "proper" strat headstock...*)
This thread is a mess.
B..b..b..b....bigger boys did it and ran away!!
yeah a lot of people were shouting stuff...
:lol: