Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: _tom_ on May 23, 2006, 12:02:43 AM
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Had band practise today and was so disappointed with my tone I just want to sell EVERYTHING and start again :(
My setup is:
Epiphone LP Custom with Mules - Korg Dt10 tuner - keeley rat - marshall guvnor plus - Fender HRDx with hotplate.
I really like the sound by itself but as soon as I play with other people it seems to sound thin and hollow. The cleans are especially horrible. I dont know what to do really. I have tried the basics like mid all the way up, less gain etc but its still cr@p. I'm seriously considering saving up for a Laney GH50L after hearing Twinfans clip, and using my HRDx speaker as a cab till I can afford a proper cab. Any advice for getting the best out of my current setup would be great though.
Cheers
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Try running it into a 4x12....should thicken things up a bit.
Or better yet, get rid of the Hot Rod Deluxe.
IMO.
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Yeah. I just dont think I can, because my dad bought it for me, and I think he'll be all "upset" that I dont want it or something, and I just feel like a spoilt brat :lol:
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Yeah, it's a tough one isn't it?
I remember posting on here awhile back, saying how I didn't like the JCM800 tone much in my room. People replied saying 'just try it in a band', so I got a band and viola, much better.
However, unfortunately, I have no idea what to do with your stuff! If it really bothers you in the band, you could always rent an amp for an hour or two from the studio (if you're rehearsing in one)
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Yeah I could ask.. but then thats more money spent on stuff that isnt my own amp :P They have a JCM900 halfstack there that I really want to play sometime just to see what its like, but apparently they dont like people touching their stuff which is fair enough.
I think the fenders problem could be that its just too bassy and not really cutting for rock and may blend in too much with the bassist, and the single 1x12 doesnt help I guess.. Times like this I wish I had a job so I could get stuff alot easier!
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NOT a long term solution, but, what about a cheap modellor? If you can try one with the amp you have, just to see if they gel together?
Just a thought for time being.
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NOT a long term solution, but, what about a cheap modellor? If you can try one with the amp you have, just to see if they gel together?
Just a thought for time being.
Yeah I tried that, I have a Behringer V-Amp 2, but this sounded pretty cr@p aswell through the poweramp of the Fender, yet sounds really good for recording :(
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damn, sorry bro.
Sounds like diff. amp is the ticket but if ya Dad bought it for ya :( Know how that is. My Dad is, well his cancer is spreading. Suffice to say 10 days I am UK bound!
Good luck, maybe a pedal like the Big D, but it aint cheap.
Darn, this is a tough one Tom man!
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Yeah, I want to keep the amp really... because its still a nice amp and if I sold it I know I'd probably just regret it, and it sounds great for nice cleans with my strat. I was gonna get a new drive pedal but thats just more money taken away from the amp fund I guess. Really need to find a job somewhere :?
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I was gonna get a new drive pedal but thats just more money taken away from the amp fund I guess. Really need to find a job somewhere :?
Tubescreamers are a great match for a Strat into Fender setup (see: SRV), and the mid boost will help your amp cut more than it is with the Rat or Guv'.
If you want a low price TubeScreamer option (the TS9 is somewhat pricey) check out the DigiTech Bad Monkey.
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Well I had a TS7 and if thats anything to judge Tubescreamers by I hated it, so muddy and was really bland and dry sounding.
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Well I had a TS7 and if thats anything to judge Tubescreamers by I hated it, so muddy and was really bland and dry sounding.
Don't judge the TS9 by the TS7 (IMO).
I typed this above, but I don't think I got the edit in before you read it....
.....but if you want a cheap TubeScreamer, check out the DigiTech Bad Monkey.
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Ah right, I read that the TS7 and TS9 are very similar though. I might try a BM if I can get one cheap on ebay then.
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Darn, Guitar Centre was blowing em out for $29 here :(
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Well I had a TS7 and if thats anything to judge Tubescreamers by I hated it, so muddy and was really bland and dry sounding.
On a side note, did you use it with a solid state amp? When I was younger (and dumber) I bought a TS9 thinking it'd make my solid state sound like a tube amp. I was seriously dissapointed, I seem to remember it sounding muddy and bland.
Then, when I bought my first tube amp I tried it again and it seriously screamed. Bright, articulate, and the mid bump made my amp sound loud.
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For band practice, take the hotplate out the the chain.....it is stealing some tone for no reason, as you can crank up now.
Next, more speakers would definitely help. I had the same problem with my previous Peavey XXX.....a 1x12 just doesn't get you that umph in a practice situation.
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some lame ideas, but low cost at least:
move the amp around the room, on/off the floor, by/away from the walls etc (i guess you may have done this anyway)
some kind of new 12" speaker for the amp, something with more definition to cut through the bassist maybe? also that shows you like the amp so much that you're upgrading it! should please the old man...
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Also, alternatively to dialing in mids, try to leave the mids at 12:00 o'clock and reduce the treble/presence values - also varying the ratio of pre- and poweramp gain might change the result quite significantly.
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My rhythmn guitarist uses a solid state 50w Marshall 1x12 and that cuts fine in a practice situation. Here's what I'd do:
1) Remove the hotplate. It's not needed live and will suck tone.
2) Crank the power stage to 9/10 and then feed in pre-amp gain as needed. This will give you more "balls".
3) Try the EQ flat, then add whatever you need in the room (e.g. less bass, more treble etc).
4) Make sure the speaker is pointing wherever you want to hear it. If you stand to the side, it'll sound flat.
What sort of tone are you after? If you're cutting loads of mids for metal that will be your problem and you'll need a more powerful amp...
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Nope I tried the TS7 through my HRDx only, was cr@p!
About the hotplate, I cant crank my amp atall in practises, I have to have it on -12db, and the amp sounds cr@p without the hotplate at that volume.. I only had it on -8 for a gig aswell, the amps too loud. I think what I may try though, is turning down the volume on the amp and attentuating it less.. but then that means that I'll have to get all my overdrive from a pedal, whereas when I have the volume higher I'm mixing the pedals with the amps natural overdrive..
I was thinking of getting a new speaker, a Vintage 30 perhaps as I've heard they make HRDx better for rock than the stock Eminence. Oh yeah I was planning on getting an amp stand too so the sound is projected more, at the minute I'm leaning it against the wall which still projects it a bit but not as well as I think a stand would, as itd be higher and off the floor.. Anyone got any other ideas?
Also its just a general "good" rock tone, we dont play anything heavy, nor do we plan to
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How about removing the Hot Plate for rehearsal and maybe look at borrowing (or hiring) a 4x12 cab for rehearsal, and run your existing amp through that. Most rehearsal studios I've been to have backline for hire.
Muttley
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Well I dunno, it seems stupid because the amp is so bloody loud, and the volume control is so sensetive, its either too quiet (and thin), loud (which is too much for practise), or too loud for anything.
They have a 4x12 at the studio we practise at so next time I could ask them to see what they say!
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I know where your coming from with the amp. I had the 2x12(I think that was the De.ville) and it was either quiet as $%&# or to loud. These amps aren't known for great distortion, I didn't hold on to mine for long and got the DSL50 head a 2x12 cab, what a difference. I am not saying get that head but I think a change of gear is you only (and easiest)option.
Just a question..How old are you Tom?
I ask because I know for a fact that ,as a father myself, if my son was in your situation I would want him to have what was right for him, and if that meant chopping in his gear then, I would encourage him to do so.
Good luck mate, good gear comes to those who wait (and I am still waiting for the cash for my BKPs :roll: :cry: :D !!!
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I'm 17 now, and still havent found anyone wanting to give me a job, been to so many failed interviews! Anyway.. my dad isnt a guitarist and doesnt seem to understand tone because of that :lol: I told him I wanted to get a different amp and he was like "Whats wrong with the one you have now?" etc, and I dont know how to answer that because theres not really anything "wrong" with it, it just doesnt do what I want.. I guess I can keep trying with him but I doubt it'll work, but it IS my 18th in November so maybe I can persuade him that I need a rock amp 8)
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Try handing a CV into your local Woolworths, they hire on a personal basis, and won't kick you in the bean bag cos you don't have any experience.
Worked for me, and I get to put on ANY cd I want over the PA. Working on the entertainment desk rules.
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Allready applied and failed at Woolies.. :cry:
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You have no chance then. Ever considered a life of crime?
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haha..ermm...no not really :?
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I don't think the amp is the problem. I mostly play the thing hooked up to a 2X12 speaker cab. It'll fatten things up a bit and make the amp sound huge. On smaller gigs I leave the cab at home. The amp will sound thinner (like a combo does) but it shure shouldn't sound bad when clean.
An FX chain can suck alot of tone as well as the hotplate. Try playing without the hotplate and only the RAT in the chain. And add plenty of mids.
If the bass simply copies the guitar riff, that can ruin the mix as well. (This is why Metallica's Justice album sounds so bad)
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I don't think the amp is the problem. I mostly play the thing hooked up to a 2X12 speaker cab. It'll fatten things up a bit and make the amp sound huge. On smaller gigs I leave the cab at home. The amp will sound thinner (like a combo does) but it shure shouldn't sound bad when clean.
An FX chain can suck alot of tone as well as the hotplate. Try playing without the hotplate and only the RAT in the chain. And add plenty of mids.
If the bass simply copies the guitar riff, that can ruin the mix as well. (This is why Metallica's Justice album sounds so bad)
Do you not find the stock speaker to be harsh when pushed? Maybe its not the speaker, but theres definately a harsh edge when I play louder that isnt very nice! I always have the mids on full. Next week I'm gonna try a cleaner amp (volume on about 2-3) and less attentuation to see if that does anything
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I also think yanking the hotplate, or at least dialing it back, would help along with mucking with amp placement. If you haven't already, try getting it off the floor, not backed against a wall (too much), and get it pointed at your head. :) Then work those EQs!
Changing your setting (e.g. bedroom to practice room to yet a different practice room to venue, etc.) always makes things sound different (and so, perhaps -- subjectively, at least -- worse). I would think the amp can cut it, you've just got to mess with it to get it sounding as good as you can in different spaces (since, after all, when you plunk it on stage for that first soundcheck, it will a) sound different again, and b) what you hear on stage won't be what the audience hears anyway, so you have to close your eyes and trust the soundman, which is not always justified but, eh, what choice have you got? ;)).
This is a lot of the reason the darn things have twiddly knobs and dials, after all (I assume). Otherwise they could just built an amp with "The Tone" and no settings. :)
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If you're set on getting a new speaker I'd go for an Eminence Swamp Thang. It's the thickest sounding speaker I've heard, not including overdriven lower-powered speakers.
Personally I reckon lowering the amp's volume like you suggested will remove some harshness. I'd wait and see how you get on with that first. I don't believe Hotplates 'suck tone' that much, but I do think that as much as everyone goes on about how a pushed valve amp sounds awesome, in my experience not all valve amps are equal - my EL34 Seymour Duncan sounded pretty horrible when cranked into real power-amp overdrive, having a harsh ear-destroying edge just like you say your HRDLx has. Yet my 6L6 Matamp, in typical no-BS fashion, just sounds better the higher the volume!
PS Ratrod I thought Metallica's Justice... sounded bad because there was no bass at all!?
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:D My mate has a HRD he plugs a PodXt through it gets a great sound. He has also swapped the speakers out & put in Vintage 30. Try to borrow a Cab the 4 x 12 sounds ideal Tom the rehearsal studio might insist on you hiring it but give it a go see how you get on with it.
:D 8)
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Yeah well I'm thinking.. even if they wont let me use it "officially" I can still plug into it anyway.. because they leave after one of us from the band arrives there and I dont think theres CCTV that I can see, so it'll be easy enough to plug into the cab!
I'm thinking of getting a V30 installed still but heard from a mate that they are best for dark sounding amps as they are bright speakers.. well my amps allready really bright, and I see V30s being used in marshalls all the time which are known to be bright are they not?
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V30s, in my experience, are not bright speakers, simple as that!
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Nope - Vintage 30s are very midrange-y and not at all bright (like G12-75Ts).
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Oh right I might have to save up for one then... but I heard some clips comparing the Behringer Vintage overdrive and Maxon (the ones that indys just posted, that I found on HC) and decided to try the Behringer, as it sounds pretty good. If its shite I guess I can send it back but at £20 it was worth the gamble :D
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proves my point fender amps suck balls :P, dude just explain to your dad your unhappy with it and ask if it's ok to trade it in for something else.
he'll understand, thats what dads are for.
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4 by 12 is a nice idea, but I used to get similar problems with my Strat-Rat-Laney Lc50 rig. I finally solved it by sticking a 1x15 closed back bass cab into the extension speaker jack, and raising both off the floor by a couple of feet. It took a lot of the fizz out of the tone, and seemed to carry a lot further. Really pissed the drummer off though...
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haha but he wont, hes just not like that. Only my Mum seems to understand, and shes tone deaf aswell :?
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4 by 12 is a nice idea, but I used to get similar problems with my Strat-Rat-Laney Lc50 rig. I finally solved it by sticking a 1x15 closed back bass cab into the extension speaker jack, and raising both off the floor by a couple of feet. It took a lot of the fizz out of the tone, and seemed to carry a lot further. Really pissed the drummer off though...
I think our drummer gets pissed off enough allready :lol: boring old fart
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A word in favour of the Hot Rod Deluxe - I've had one for ten years and love it to bits. It currently handles Strat with Apaches, Epi LP with Nailbombs and Custom Fixed neck tele (mahogany/maple) with Mules. I think you need to play with the settings in a band situation, particularly without the Hot Plate. You just shouldn't need it with a 40w Deluxe in a band mix. Start with no effects till you get the tone you want and move from there. I would also have the amp checked in case the tubes are running too cold and need rebiasing, that would definitely contribute to a cr@p sound.
Incidentally, it was the write up in Guitarist when the Hot Rod first came out that persuaded me to give one a try. They raved about it, a clean sound to die for and plenty of dirt. I played it, I was convinced. I still am. I run a compressor and a Tube Screamer clone into it after setting up the amp to just start breaking up with full volume on the guitar. Wind back guitar volume slightly for clean. I rarely use the drive channels as this setup gives me as much as I need for most occasions.
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The thing is though, I do seem to need the hotplate, its far too loud :? I was gonna replace the valves soon actually with some JJs as I heard they are smoother and nicer..
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fender amps suck balls
That's a very big statement mate
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^haha thats what i was thinking...
this has happened a lot today... weird...
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Id say ditch one of the effects pedals. 2 overdrivey ones in a chain cant be good :P
On the Hotplate there should be a treble compensation switch (or tone switch), set that to boost the treble maybe?
My old Ashdown amp was far too bassy, had to knock it right down... dont be afraid of REALLY getting in and tweaking the knobs (ooeerr)
http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data/Fender/Hot_Rod_Deluxe-1.html
Read some owners reviews, see what other people think and how they use their amps :)
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I didnt even think of reading other poeples reviews of it :lol:, I see someone else says it has the ice-pick sound so its not just me, just not sure wether its the valves or speaker! It goes away when you arent infront of the speaker.. so I guess its that, but you never know.
As for the overdrives, I dont use them together, unless I need a boost in which case I just switch the other one on :P I tried the treble boost and it sounds ok.. but the clean still sounded really hollow.. weird as it sounds AMAZING when playing by myself, I couldnt stop playing earlier with it cranked up a bit (not sitting infront of the speaker though, the harshness would take my head off).
cheers for all the help.
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V30s, in my experience, are not bright speakers, simple as that!
They are a tad bright in comparison with others. Very good speakers.
If you don't want a bright speaker, try a Classic Lead. Very close to the V30 soundwise but a tad more lows and a tad rolled back on the highs. That's what I have in my cabinet and I think they sound great. Very warm in the mids and tight and have a sound that will cut through anything ;)
Also, could a retubing with some better tubes and a proper biasing help in your situation? (I'd recommend the SED "Winged C" 6L6s or the Groove Tubes model that groove tubes makes as second. And dig up some RFTs for the preamp).
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proves my point fender amps suck balls :P
I don't want to know your sexual fantasies with Fender amps! lol!
Seriously, there's nothing wrong with Fenders unless you are one of those ignorant metalheads who wont play without loads of distortion.
Some of the best sounding amps I have ever heard were old 60s blackface Fenders. Perhaps the best clean tone I have ever heard was from a '64 Fender Twin Reverb with RCA 6L6s in it.
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Don't go spending TOO much money on new tubes, theres a whopping what...4 different companies that make the tubes for what...20 different brands? :P and a matched pair, that costs twice as much..will only be matched for around 8 hours of play before they become unmatched. though..those 8 hours WILL sounds fantastic. Though I am a boogie man myself, it is quite a statement to say fender amps suck balls, I mean..they have been the standard for decades, though like lots of company, quality does fade...
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Lots of good advice so far. :)
How does it sound to you when you just run the guitar directly into the amp? I definitely second R/2e's suggestion of starting with just the guitar and amp and then adding the effects as needed. And have you tried adjusting the tone knobs on the guitar itself? Often, when you turn a tube amp up, there will be more treble in the sound. Actually, when I had my last multi-effects unit, the Tonelab, I had to reprogram my presets to use them live, because they sounded so different.
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The amp is too loud for practice? You guys must play very quiet....I have my dual recto without a hotplate at band practice, and I run it loud. Sounds great!
Can you guys hot turn up?
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Have you thought about ditching the band and going solo, then your guitar will sound just right? :D
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The thing is though, I do seem to need the hotplate, its far too loud Confused I was gonna replace the valves soon actually with some JJs as I heard they are smoother and nicer..
I'm really surprised at this, yes it can be a loud amp (but not over loud at 40w) so turn it down, it doesn't have to be running at full bore. I had a JCM 800 50w before the Hot Rod which I hated because it only sang when it was wound right up at which point even the drummer complained about the noise....! (No seriously it was too loud for all but the biggest gigs, bearing in mind we're a pub/functions band and do mainly 60's/70's stuff from Beatles through Kinks to Led Zep and Queen so ain't metal). I really think you should get away from the hotplate which is ideal for the bedroom but I guess isn't doing any favours at practice/gigging levels and experiment with the amp to get the tone you want. And before thinking of changing the valves, get an amp tech to check them out, particularly the biasing, there's a good article about it here - http://studentweb.eku.edu/justin_holton/bias.html[/quote]
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I will admit that the speaker in the Hot Rod isn't the best. If you're used to heavy rock half stacks, you might even want to say it sounds like a tin can.
I'm not chabnging the speaker in mine. The brightness and midrange in it combines well with the darker, bassier hi fi sound of the speaker cab. They kinda complement eachother.
In both practice and live stuations I rarely have the volume past the 2 mark. In 99% of all situations it's on 1.8.
Hooked up to a speaker cab and with a good overdrive unit, the Hot Rod can give many Marshalls a run for their money.
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Hmm yeah I was worried if I changed the speaker I'd lose some of the nice Fender cleans. Although that classic lead seems good.. I guess we do play quiet at band practise, the PA in the studio doesnt go very loud which doesnt help. Seriously its horrible without the hotplate at the level we play at, worse than it is now.
Ratrod I know you love the Tube Factor but I cant find any at a reasonable price, although the clips I heard of it sound great.
I was gonna take the amp to get new input jacks and maybe a new speaker put in as I found someone near to me that can do it, so I think I'll get him to check the bias whilst its there aswell, maybe even get him to re-valve it as I dont even know how to take out the poweramp ones.
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The amp is too loud for practice? You guys must play very quiet....I have my dual recto without a hotplate at band practice, and I run it loud. Sounds great!
Can you guys hot turn up?
I agree, I am also using a dual recto with a 4X12 at band practice, do you guys have a neighboors that are always complaining? if not then..turn it up!
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the neighbours where we practice are always complaining... bloody green-peace conservationists... ARGH!!!
oh well, im fortunate enough to have a drummer whose dad will do ANYTHING to help his sons drumming... this includes:
- buying us a 2000 watt P.A system
- building us a little hut/shed to practice in
- now building us what is basically our own concrete house to practice in
- telling the neighbours to F-off
- buying his son a £2000 drum kit then buying himself a £1000 kit...
ahhhhh drummers eh...
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Sambo, your drummers Dad sounds like a thoroughly decent bloke to me. Getting back to Tom's problem, I agree also with Ron ( R/2E) - start with amp, guitar- get a basic sound and then tweak to suit- lose the f/x to kick off with. In my band, the other guitarist and I listen to each other's tone and try to find a different place sonically- he has a Ric 360 and a Gibson SG, I have Strat & Tele ( he says I am too loud- not true he he). Keep it as simple as you can I would say. Sorry, I am waffling.
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LOL, twin guitarist wars/debates, omg, takes me back. Course I was the Bass player quietly getting drunk whilst they bickered LOL
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LOL, twin guitarist wars/debates, omg, takes me back. Course I was the Bass player quietly getting drunk whilst they bickered LOL
Take an indulgent bass solo whilst they bicker! :wink:
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Bass solo, u nuts! LOL, I stole THEIR beer whilst they were pre-occupied ROFLMAO :twisted:
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Have you tried increasing the bass and mid controls....?
Sometimes all it takes is an EQ tweak
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Yep of course, mids are on full for most of the time (the controls hardly even make any difference on the HRDx for some reason), but the bass just gets farty alot of the time so I tend to have that low.. Sambo I am jealous :(
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Bass solo, u nuts! LOL, I stole THEIR beer whilst they were pre-occupied ROFLMAO :twisted:
Ah! Even better choice! 8)
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Tom before you shell out money try tilting the angle of your amp towards you like a monitor. I used to do that with my old Peavey and it really made a big difference. If this has already been suggested then sorry!
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Tom before you shell out money try tilting the angle of your amp towards you like a monitor. I used to do that with my old Peavey and it really made a big difference. If this has already been suggested then sorry!
Yeah this is what I currently do, it does help make it more cutting but then I get the harsh bit of the speaker right in my ears :lol:
Probably doesnt help that the other guitarist is using a halfstack though, so I might get a stand just to get my speaker the same level as his so it doesnt "blend" with the bass on the floor so much if that even makes sense..