Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Muttley on May 24, 2006, 01:46:47 PM
-
I'm getting a little frustrated that I seem to keep falling back on the same old blues licks all the time, and seem tied to a couple of scale "box shapes".
I'm finding it very difficult to break this habit and wondered if anybody had some advice or tips (other than bashing my head against the wall every time I catch myself doing it)?
Cheers
Muttley
-
Try adding extra notes into the scale box you're using. That can add a different feel. Also play the notes in different positions on the neck e.g. if you're playing E pentatonic on the 12th fret, try playing the same notes starting with the D on the 10th fret of the bass E working across the strings to the E on 12th fret of the top E.
Same notes, different position = different feel and phrasing.
-
IF, big word there, you are talking Pentatonic, try Aeolian (adding few notes, as said before). Really alters sound and direction that you can explore.
Also, maybe not your bag (and your question is a little vague) but adding palm muting and some pinch harmonics, hammer ons etc. Add much more variety to a worn routine/sound.
-
What kind of music are you listening to, predominantly? I mostly associate chromatics with the more 'free'/avant-garde jazzers, when I listen to their stuff repeatedly it just seeps into you.
-
IF, big word there, you are talking Pentatonic, try Aeolian (adding few notes, as said before). Really alters sound and direction that you can explore.
Yeah, it's mainly Blues Pentatonic licks that are so ingrained in my subconcious I keep repeating the damn things over and over again, which I think is holding back my playing a bit.
Also, maybe not your bag (and your question is a little vague) but adding palm muting and some pinch harmonics, hammer ons etc. Add much more variety to a worn routine/sound.
It probably is a bit vague. As to stuff like palm muting, pinch harmonics, hammer ons, wide vibrato, etc. I already do all that kind of stuff. It's mainly the note/lick selection I'm having trouble with.
-
You and Zakk both then :)
Sorry, will think on it more bud :)
-
What kind of music are you listening to, predominantly? I mostly associate chromatics with the more 'free'/avant-garde jazzers, when I listen to their stuff repeatedly it just seeps into you.
Well, my Top 10 artists according to last.fm are:
[list=1]- The Wildhearts
- Overkill
- Bad Religion
- Enuff Z'Nuff
- New Model Army
- Joe Satriani
- John Williams
- Steve Vai
- Mötley Crüe
- Green Day[/list:o]
I've never really got on with the more modern jazz styles, although I like some of the older big band stuff.
-
Yeah, it's mainly Blues Pentatonic licks that are so ingrained in my subconcious I keep repeating the damn things over and over again, which I think is holding back my playing a bit.
Thats exactly what I'm like, its cr@p and have been stuck like it for AGES.
-
Have you tried playing more along the strings, rather than up and down 'em? Like, say, sticking to the B string for a while in a solo and forcing yourself to not play any other strings. Do that every so often and eventually you'll be able to incorporate it in your solos all the time.
Learn modes! Get the sound of them in your head and it'll be natural for you to stick odd notes in your solos here and there.
-
+1 Mark... learn Modes mate... my teacher gave me them very early on in my learning... and even though i was extremely disinterested in learning scales or practicing at all at that point, it still engrained the Ionian in my head... i use that with the pentatonic all the time now as it is really easy to switch between the two and mix them... it expands your horizons A LOT...
-
Get the sound of them in your head and it'll be natural for you to stick odd notes in your solos here and there.
Great idea but that can take a bit of time!
If you can't be bothered with modes, which is a bad thing to say but is true in a lot of people's cases, try this kind of stuff:
1. Instead of switching on autopilot when it comes to noodling stuff, in your bedroom at least, sit back and tell yourself not to play those licks. Sing lines in your head that you would like to be able to play - simple blues stuff especially - then try and play them. If you find you forget them when it comes to playing them, sing them out loud first!
2. Whilst not on autopilot, if you run out of ideas in your head, try skipping strings in your familiar 'boxes', or even chucking in notes that you've never played before. This'll sound cr@p 9 times out of 10, but some of the best set (-ish) licks I've got have resulted from me making mistakes or delibrately going where I've never gone before.
3. When playing live, unless you're confident enough to play as Mark suggested ^, ignore all of the above and play on autopilot or you'll f@ck up!
Hope this helps.
-
BTW I listened to Cream's 'I'm so Glad' yesterday and realised that EC's solo, which is almost a minute long, is completely played on the G string. I really believe he limited himself to that so he didn't fall into his own boxes..... and it worked out really well!
Also, off topic, if anyone's a fan of that album, listen to the supposed silence on Spoonful at about 6.10, before Jack Bruce sings ''Everythin's a dyin' about it'' and you'll hear him sing that line very quietly just before he comes in properly. I'd guess that they recorded it basically live, and he came in with that line, but afterwards they thought he didn't leave a long enough gap so they rode the faders right down (but not quite down enough!) and he sung that bit again leaving a longer gap. There's obvious cut + pastes all over the album if you listen closely enough. Interesting, huh. 8)
-
There in there for good and thats the thing. I was talking with a guy in my local guitar shop and he is stuck on sweeps ect and can't play blues based stuff.
Learning new shapes and modes is good and i do that but can't apply them too well and it just sounds like scales.
One of the other posters said about coming up with lines in your head, which is a great way of coming up with new stuff cos it's your head playing and not where your fingers fall. So that is really composing rather than impro' but it may help.
At the end of the day its fffing hard to break out of pentatonics but i still think they sound cool.
-
Muttley, I often fall back on blues licks so I know where you are coming from ( plus I was a bass player for years so akll theis lead guitar stuff is relatively new to me). You may or may not be into him but Robben Ford is a great player to listen to as he pushes boundries but still retains a sense of melody.
-
Learning new shapes and modes is good and i do that but can't apply them too well and it just sounds like scales.
Ya gotta push past the it-sounds-like-scales barrier, Johnny. Put on a chord progression that just loops and loops. Pick the appropriate mode and go for it. After a while (maybe half an hour with the same four chords) you get to a point where you kinda think, "Now what the hell do I play?", because you've played everything that quickly comes to mind. That's when you start to really get into the interesting stuff. That's when the creative side kicks in.
-
Learning new shapes and modes is good and i do that but can't apply them too well and it just sounds like scales.
Ya gotta push past the it-sounds-like-scales barrier, Johnny. Put on a chord progression that just loops and loops. Pick the appropriate mode and go for it. After a while (maybe half an hour with the same four chords) you get to a point where you kinda think, "Now what the hell do I play?", because you've played everything that quickly comes to mind. That's when you start to really get into the interesting stuff. That's when the creative side kicks in.
I'll give that a go thanks for the tip searcher! It's the phrasing in modes that i need to work on. How many modes can you freely play in? I was talking to my girlfriend about this at the weekend, (she's a music teacher plays lots of wind instruments) and I'm saying about the harmonic minor and i have a book on modes which is a great reference (Scales and modes by Cliff Dowse) there's like about 20-30 different shapes on this scale which to me sounds like a confusing amount of stuff to learn. Then you have all the Dorian, phrygian etc so where do you say enough? It would be great to learn and apply all this knowledge but realistically it's not feasible for me!
-
I take it you're playing around with the various 'positions' you have available with the standard pentatonic scale ???? - try mixing in some major pentatonic licks here and there to spice it up (think Angus Young - checkout the Highway To Hell solo). Another obvious major/minor blues type player is Gary Moore.
Get some two-string riffs in there & more groove orientated stuff along the lines of what Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top does - his stuff really is a master class in tastfull pentatonic playing.
Lastly, listen to something different & work it out - you'll eventually work those licks into your playing. Some of the original Chicago Blues guys had very individual styles that you can cop from - Albert King, Buddy Guy, Muddy Water - trying all those micro-bends that he excelled in with the slide.
:twisted:
-
I take it you're playing around with the various 'positions' you have available with the standard pentatonic scale ???? - try mixing in some major pentatonic licks here and there to spice it up (think Angus Young - checkout the Highway To Hell solo). Another obvious major/minor blues type player is Gary Moore.
Get some two-string riffs in there & more groove orientated stuff along the lines of what Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top does - his stuff really is a master class in tastfull pentatonic playing.
Lastly, listen to something different & work it out - you'll eventually work those licks into your playing. Some of the original Chicago Blues guys had very individual styles that you can cop from - Albert King, Buddy Guy, Muddy Water - trying all those micro-bends that he excelled in with the slide.
:twisted:
Yes i know all the pentatonic shapes through an octave, plus majors. It's the exotic stuff i have trouble with.
I big into Joe Walsh he does some wicked 1/4 tone bends!
-
You should start to learn, 1 The scales as they are, not in shapes but in intervals and structure, you will soon see just how simple it all is.
and 2, I would say it is more about building your arsenal of techniques and tricks.
Think of it as scales being the foundation and then when you understand them you can move on to putting the notes into context mixed with some kick ass skills.
Maybe get a guitar teacher, I know a good one in torrington!!! :D :D :D
-
How many modes can you freely play in?
I suppose it depends what you're playing over! Some modes are very specific and others are more ambiguous. Like over a major progression you might be able to use the straight Ionian (7 note happy-clappy major scale) as well as getting away with the Mixolydian, ie just adding a flat seventh (a tone down from the octave instead of half a tone). On top of that you might be able to get away with loads of passing notes. Man this is a pretty big question!!
On the 'which modes to learn' thing, I'd say for 90% of popular music the modes of the major scale are enough. I'm not sure how much you know here so 'scuse me if this is patronising but.... there are 7 notes in the major scale, and therefore there are 7 different notes you could start from to form new scales out of the same bunch of notes. Say you're playing in C, the notes of C major would be C D E F G A B. That's your first mode, which as everything has to be given a freakin name is known as the Ionian. The second mode, starting on the second note of the Major scale, is D E F G A B C. Obviously you have to be playing in the key of the first note in the scale (D this time) otherwise it would sound identical to the first mode.
Etc.
I might put a short clip up of some modal playing over ambiguous major/minor chords tomorrow to try to demonstrate how much you can get away with regarding the use of more than one mode at a time to answer the above question. And also, mainly, so tom, muttley or yourself Johnny can nick licks if you want, because it's a damn sight easier than learning all the modal stuff!
Disclaimer! I'm by no means an expert on this stuff - otherwise I wouldn't be at college :) - and I'm pretty sure someone like HJM could easily out-mode me....but I'll give it a shot, and you can take it or leave it as it were.
-
Sod it I'll get something down now...afternoon lessons tomorrow :D
-
woo! go you... :D
-
Hey I posted this in the forum probably about a year ago or something, so it's long since been lost to the place of lost threads, but I found it on another forum. Here you go (this is just the basic modes though)
Im going to outline some basic ways to learn your scales, add variety and increase your technique, control, speed and phrasing within scale-learning. But! It will be boring, so you need to make sure you are willing to do it!
LEARNING THE MAJOR SCALE AND IT'S MODES
Firstly, i would recommend you go here
Come here... (http://www.johnmclaughlin.com/v1/updates/tablatures.html)
and download chapter one for now. its a pdf file of the tablature from the dvd of John Mclaughlin (one of the greatest guitarists ever IMO). The particular document we will need is in the chapter 1 zip file called 'All Modes'.
Play through this and you will learn the C major scale through two octaves in one position, and then all the subsequent modes of Cmajor. Notice that the second - Dorian - mode is the exact same as the C major scale, just starting and ending on D, the second note of the C major scale. Like the 3 rd mode, the Phyrgian mode is just from E, the third note of the C major scale, to E again. This is all modes are - scales within scales! Its very easy to learn them when you realise this.
At this stage i would recommend making a conscious effort to relate the tablature to the musical score above it, thereby learning the notes on the treble clef. They go like this:
-----F----
-----D----
-----B----
-----G----
-----E----
You can remember this by the mnemonic (i think thats the word!) Every Good Boy Deserves Football. However, for example, G will always remain on the same line of the treble clef stave, regardless of whether it is normal (natural), sharp, or flat. To signify its tonality, it will be prefaced by a '#' for sharp, or a 'b' for flat. This is really straightforward, but confuses a lot of guitarists - still catches me out a lot, im so used to tab!
When you have learnt the notes of the C major scale (C D E F G A B C), you can learn them all over the fretboard and work out scale patterns for yourself, but you should always, always, always start and end your patterns on the root note so you train your ear properly. It is critical to hear the notes of a scale in relation to their root note! Also, be aware that the C major scale can be a little misleading! If you were going to transpose it to an A Major scale, you might think that, as Cmaj is C D E F G A B C then Amaj would be A B C D E F G, but you would be wrong! Notice that the intervals are what is crucial- in the correct C major scale the difference between 3rd and 4th notes (E & F) is a semitone, but in the assumed version of A major we have C & D, a difference of a semitone, meaning our version of A major is incorrect! The formula/ pattern of intervals between notes for any major scale is:
Tone
Tone
Semitone
Tone
Tone
Tone
Semitone
So the correct A major scale would be A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A. A scale of A B C D E F G A would actually be the Aeolian mode of A major (see the downloaded notes!)
PLAYING TECHNIQUE
Firstly, get a metronome-there are many you can download for free online. I use something called Musebook, but i have no idea if its particularly good, it was the only one i downloaded and it has good tempos and time signatures so thats all that matters to me!
Obviously, the most obvious route of learning scales is to increase the speed at which you play them over time, using your metronome to control the speed. A good tip is to record the speed at which you can play the scale, and keep track of your progress. Also, make sure you play on a clean sound, and don't increase the tempo of the metronome til you can actually play it perfectly - dont lie to yourself! its just wasting your time! and also make a conscious effort to use all four fingers to really improve your fretboard ability.
But this is not all you can do. You could play the scale legato (example 1) so that you only pick the first note per string and the rest is all played with hammer ons (ascending through the scale) and pull-offs (descending).
Or you could use scales to practise your alternate picking. In example 2a, i am starting each string on an up pick, followed by a downpick, then an up-pick (hence the 'alternate' picking). In 2b, it is reversed, with me starting on a downpick, then an up-pick, then a down-pick. This really will focus and improve your ability to alternate pick - and learning to start with both up and downpicks will allow you to use the technique a lot more easily. after all, sometimes you aren't always going to be in a position to start with an up-pick, but if you dont know how to pick starting on a down-pick you are going to be screwed!
In example 2c, im mixing the two techiques, playing the first three notes legato then the next three alternate picked, a technique used by people such as Paul Gilbert etc- it can be used to make fast soloing sound a lot more aggressive!
Then we should consider phrasing, and note groupings. In 3a, the notes are played as triplets (three notes per beat), and this is how most people would approach a pattern that has 3 notes per string. But in 3b we are now playing 4 notes per beat (quavers i think), yet exactly the same notes, in the same order. This kind of playing may take you some getting used to if you've never done it before it can be a bit of a head$%&#. Especially if you play it legato. In 3c, the notes are played as quintuplets (5 notes per beat) which tends to confuse pretty much everyone! Just think of a word with 5 syllables, e.g. hip-po-pot-a-mus or whatever. I've had to refigure the scale here to fit, but obviously you can play it in any order that takes your fancy! Again, play it legato or picked or mixed. Just keep mixing up all the techniques and see what you get! You could play one beat in quintuplets, one in quavers, etc, just push yourself and track your progress with the metronome!
Also, its worth thinking about odd ways to play through your scales, maybe you could skip from the bottom E string to play the next 3 notes on the D string or suchlike? (i forgot to draw an example for this sorry!)
Just be open-minded and constantly mix up all the techniques. And learn it all in all the different keys to push yourself, and let your ears be the guide, when you are feeling confident! And learn all the scales all over the fretboard, not just the ones ive given you. to force yourself to work something out usually means you will learn it a lot better!
Obviously this is all about the major scale, but most rock playing centres on this or the minor pentatonic. To learn other scales just search the web, one place i found was
http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/basic/page2.php (http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/basic/page2.php)
but there are many more!
Two more examples ive put at the bottom of the tab concern playing in minor pentatonics (C minor here to be precise!). I mentioned this to berney a while back, instead of playing two-notes per string like most pentatonic scales do (4a), you can push yourself to play 3 notes per string. Its exactly the same notes, same order but it really stretches your fingers.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y244/ianwillo/File0019.jpg)
Thats about all i can think of right now; if there are any mistakes or questions anyone has then please feel free to ask - i was feeling a bit tired today so sorry if its a bit disjointed. hope it helps!
just remember, be creative in learning your scales, you can use them as warm-ups or actual technical practise. Mix up all the different techniques and you'll make good progress!
-
err.... did you type all that...?
Ian.... mate.... you rock...
-
Muttley, I often fall back on blues licks so I know where you are coming from ( plus I was a bass player for years so akll theis lead guitar stuff is relatively new to me). You may or may not be into him but Robben Ford is a great player to listen to as he pushes boundries but still retains a sense of melody.
Robben Ford is excellent, although I only have the one album by him (s/t Robben Ford & The Blue Line).
I think maybe I do need to try and actually work out some different styles rather than just listen to them. That might hammer home some new ideas (I can be pretty dense at times :P).
Muttley
-
Maybe get a guitar teacher, I know a good one in torrington!!! :D :D :D
I think I'm going to actually do that (once I've got this house move out of the way), and maybe actually do some of the exams, as that should really focus me on some theory (I know very little theory, almost everything I've learnt has been by ear).
@everyone: Thanks for all the pointers, you've really given me some food for thought.
Muttley
-
Oh yeah sorry willo...I knew somebody had covered it. Pretty darn comprehensively I might add!
Right the thing's done at last...contrary to the last one take wonder this was in the double bleedin figures....anyway check the player's section.
-
Learn a classic guitar solo - hendrix, BB King, Muddy waters, Rory Gallagher - ZZ top ............ who ever you like, that way you'll learn tons more new classic blues licks - take a few licks from one sole then practise moving it up and down the neck playing it in difffernent keys etc.
-
You should start to learn, 1 The scales as they are, not in shapes but in intervals and structure, you will soon see just how simple it all is.
and 2, I would say it is more about building your arsenal of techniques and tricks.
Think of it as scales being the foundation and then when you understand them you can move on to putting the notes into context mixed with some kick ass skills.
Maybe get a guitar teacher, I know a good one in torrington!!! :D :D :D
I went to a guitar teacher last year, John Mizarolli in NW London. He is a great teacher but he tends to draw things out in a long winded way to extend the amount of time you spend with him for extra money. Mind you he did improve my technique so i shouldn't grumble.
-
Thanks for all those insights. It kind seems quite daunting, i don't 'see' it all that easily. I've got scales and chords by David Mead on the caged theory and i know i shouldn't say this but its so boring. I'm not suprised though i was like this at school! :lol: There must be a quicker way of 'seeing' how it all fits together. I might just take Eddie Van Halens approach and get pissed and play the 12 notes how ever i like, no it work work either!
I've been working on legato through major scales and that's working along nicely but it's a long winded process. That's what my teacher was telling me about, nail this technique and then move on to applying it to your playing. He used to switch from latin american satana style, blues, harmonic minor then in to this wacky greek hendrix style in a few bars and just left me speechless! That's the idea behind all these modes and scales, all the different flavours they conjour up. I've got these indian pentatonics and its like curry house blues, it sounds so good. Then there's these japanese ones, persian ect.
-
As long as you know what it's gonna sound like when you play the notes before you actually play them, you should be able to play anything and sound great. That's the big mental barrier you need to break that can't easily be taught by conventional methods (tabs, internet etc).
That's why you need to learn the scales, but learn them in a way that you feel really really comfortable with them. Not so you can play them fast up and down the fretboard (although that helps if you're into shred), but so you dont have to think about what you're playing - you know what its gonna sound like. That's all guitarists do when they improvise - play what they already know, just in a random way. That's why perfect pitch is a fantastic tool to develop.
-
As long as you know what it's gonna sound like when you play the notes before you actually play them, you should be able to play anything and sound great. That's the big mental barrier you need to break that can't easily be taught by conventional methods (tabs, internet etc).
That's why you need to learn the scales, but learn them in a way that you feel really really comfortable with them. Not so you can play them fast up and down the fretboard (although that helps if you're into shred), but so you dont have to think about what you're playing - you know what its gonna sound like. That's all guitarists do when they improvise - play what they already know, just in a random way. That's why perfect pitch is a fantastic tool to develop.
I don't know about perfect pitch as all the notes on a guitar are in the frets like the piano keys. That would be more for fretless stringed instruments or wind instruments ect where you have to identify the note with your ear as you cant see where your playing them. However saying that it must have it's advantages but i'm not going down that road though!
-
Perfect pitch isn't just about that though - it can be used not just for recognising the name of the note, but by knowing what your note will sound like before you play it, you'll be able to spontaneously play great stuff all the time. If you can develop perfect pitch, it'd really help that aspect of your playing.
-
My son has perfect pitch- lucky lad.
-
My wife does, too. She can tell the name of the note the microwave beeps, for goodness sake. And the spa bath hums a Bm chord, would you believe?
-
To be fair Bainzy I think knowing what notes will sound like before you play them has more to do with developing relative pitch. Plus a lot of plain old practise, partly to enhance your relative pitch but also so you recognise what notes will sound like by actually seeing (or feeling) how they're spread on the fretboard.
Hendrix used to sometimes sing the notes he was playing as he played them, and as far as I know he didn't have perfect pitch.
I'll add that when I started listening to Charlie Parker I thought he must have total control to play exactly as he wants....now, a year or so later, I've realised that he sometimes falls back on set licks and finger patterns just like the rest of us do. Still awesome though!
-
I remember watching Pulp Fiction after a few smoking a few dodgy woodbines and the scene when Bruce Willis goes back to his apartment to get his fathers watch. John Travolta is taking a dump and the toaster is on and it burns the toast and sets off the smoke alarm just as Bruce fills Travolta full of holes with the machine gun. The smoke alarms pitch is exactly the same as the metal gate squeak as Bruce runs out of the apartments car park. Seemed really cool at the time. I don't know if it was deliberate or an accident. :roll:
-
yer i think knowing what a note is gonna sound like comes from just knowing what sound you get when you play a certain fret... i mean... i have that skill to a degree... obviously not good AT ALL.. but i can guess the rough area of fretboard a sound i want to hear will be
-
completely of the subject of modes, you could try retuning one of your guitars (and i dont just mean drop D) so when your 'noodling' when you fall into a regular pattern, either it will sound awful (so you'll learn not to do it) or (hopefully) it will sound completely different. and then try different retunings. it might annoy you for a time before you get used to it, but stick with it, at the very least you'll get some new riffs. and then when you go to a standard tune guitar, try getting that same riff. I had to because a friend retuned my only guitar, and shortly after that the battery in my tuner ran out.