Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: StefanPrice on June 05, 2006, 03:44:30 PM
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Someone on the Suhr forum was asking about alternative pickups, I must just say that I think John Suhr's luthier skills are the VERY best eclipsing the likes of PRS, Anderson, Tyler, Grosh, Huber, Moser, Baker and the others. I have been a fan of Suhr since 1986, anyway I posted this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.
If you are looking for an alternative to Suhr pickups try Bare Knuckle pickups, they make the likes of Fralin and others look very uninteresting.
They are completely handmade and scatterwound by a pickup guru here in darkest Devon.
Look at the wind on Fender/Duncan/Fralin etc, the wind is so even it looks like a copper band.
The machines are hand operated, but they are not handwound and made to your own spec by one expert, it would be impossible to manufacture the amount of pickups that they do if they were all handmade by one person holding the bobbin and keeping the tention with their thumbs.
John Suhr posted this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Well actually the Fralins are handwound and our LP series are computerized handwound. Handwound does not mean that the bobbin is held by hand and the wire wrapped around it without a machine. That would be quite impossible, we are talking about 8000 turns on a single coil. Handwound means the wire is guided back and forth by hand. The disadvantage with that .... no two pickups will ever sound the same. That is why we uses a computer winder that is capable of simulating the tension and winding pattern as it is being wound to simulate the handwound pickups, but they will always sound the same, same resonant peak, same AC and DC resistance. The majic of a hand wound pickup needs to be repeatable for it to mean anything and the nature of a true handwound pickup makes that impossible.
I then posted this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
He does actually hold the bobbin and wind keeping the tension with his thumbs and pulls the wire from a spindle.
I don't think there is anyone who can touch him because I have read on harmony central etc, that people have taken out Fralins to put BK in, they really are that good!
Am I right, or am I a raving fool? ha.
Stefan.
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You are a raving fool. :P
Tim is the "MAN", that's all I'm going to say. :twisted:
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BKP's are wound by hand, and the wire is guided onto the bobbin by a machine. The bobbin is moved by hand so the wire can be scattered across the bobbin. If the pickups were completely handwound, you'd get extremely long waiting times for Bareknuckle Pickups as it'd take ages.
There's a magazine article somewhere on this site that shows how it's done - have a look for it.
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Tell Mr Suhr that there's no way his hair is as nice as Tim's and therefore he's not allowed an opinion...
One thing i will say is that however Tim winds his pickups, noone else can do it the same and therefore he is the god of everything :)
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I think that there will indeed be slight differences between handwound pups certainly but the issue here is that Mr Suhr doesn't think that they can be consistent and obviously we all have a great deal of respect for his views. We know that BK's are consistent. Tim and the guys know what they are doing and wind to a specification and it is their skill that makes them what they are. In the early days, Fender bodies used to be pretty much hand made- albeit to a pattern, they would therefore have differences but they were built to a design and specification. All these years later those early guitars are much sought after.
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Each guitar is different. I don't see why pickups should be perfectly consistent. I don't think perfect reproductibility is important, anyway.
Just my 2 cents...
(Suhr makes reproductible pickups. But does he build reproductible guitars?)
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(Suhr makes reproductible pickups. But does he build reproductible guitars?)
[cough] [cough] [Warmoth] [cough]
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Agree with CED777
The disadvantage with that .... no two pickups will ever sound the same
...Wrooong
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Computerised handwinding :lol: :lol:
Sure no two properly handwound coils are ever 'exactly' the same but the ballpark tone is virtually identical what you do hear are slightly different nuances of the same overall tone.Just the way two players might interpret the same lick-or even one player who is very likely to never play 'exactly' the same thing twice.
Any self respecting pickup maker in the world will acknowledge the fact that a handwound p/up is harmonically more complex than a machine wound and also has a far greater and extended frequency response.The drawback...........it takes time to do!
Just for reference it's not the bobbin moving or a machine guiding the wire-here at BKP we guide the wire onto the bobbin through our fingers while the bobbin is rotated on a flywheel.The tension and wind pattern is determined by the person doing the winding and it's impossible for a machine, computer or whatever to reproduce this.So many have tried but they never sound as good................in the meantime we're just getting on with doing it properly and the only way we know-by hand.
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Oh so that's why you can't find an original Gibson PAF or an original pre CBS Fender pickup on eBay, it's because no-one wants them. Because they all want to sound the same, and not like those classic albums that influenced people to start playing in the first place, so that they could sound exactly like their heroes...
Isn't the term "Computerised Handwinding" somewhat akin to the oft touted misnomer of "Military Intelligence"?
Or like a politician saying "Sorry" and meaning it.
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Anyway, why would I want my pickups to sound like anybodyelses?. Computerized?, it just sounds boring, plastic, artificial, Artless.
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Anyway, why would I want my pickups to sound like anybodyelses?. Computerized?, it just sounds boring, plastic, artificial, Artless.
Amen.
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The bobbin is held on a rotating flywheel.
The wire is guided onto the rotating bobbin by hand, scattering and overlaying the copper wire as they go
I would imagine that for each pickup model that the winder may have a scheme of how the scatter will go, and certainly works to a set number of turns per coil as dictated by the "recipe" for that pickup. The number of turns bit may be "computerised" or may just involve a counter that shows how many times the flywheel has rotated- I would have to ask Tim or one of his team about that.
But there will be a degree of difference in two "identical" coils wound this way by hand and that is part of the magic- the human element.
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Isn't the term "Computerised Handwinding" somewhat akin to the oft touted misnomer of "Military Intelligence"?
Or like a politician saying "Sorry" and meaning it.
It's called an oxymoron, like "Microsoft Works"
wow, i actually learnt something from that English GCSE i got
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The bobbin is held on a rotating flywheel.
The wire is guided onto the rotating bobbin by hand, scattering and overlaying the copper wire as they go
I would imagine that for each pickup model that the winder may have a scheme of how the scatter will go, and certainly works to a set number of turns per coil as dictated by the "recipe" for that pickup. The number of turns bit may be "computerised" or may just involve a counter that shows how many times the flywheel has rotated- I would have to ask Tim or one of his team about that.
But there will be a degree of difference in two "identical" coils wound this way by hand and that is part of the magic- the human element.
Exactly. if the measurements on a scatter pattern were taken by a computer then a scatterwind could be duplicated. Then voila....scatterwinds that can be duplicated.
Suhr pickups sound really nice, his guitars are amazing. There is plenty of room in the pickup biz. the top isnt just one company....no offense to Tim or the other guys at BKP intended.
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Each guitar is different. I don't see why pickups should be perfectly consistent. I don't think perfect reproductibility is important, anyway.
Apologies for the short reply post, but: Amen! 8)
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It's called an oxymoron, like "Microsoft Works"
Thanks, couldn't think of the term...
And the "MS Works" is a good one... Have to remember that! :lol:
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Exactly. if the measurements on a scatter pattern were taken by a computer then a scatterwind could be duplicated. Then voila....scatterwinds that can be duplicated.
But the whole point is you can't duplicate something that is truely random-all you'll get are two patterns that are the same.At the end of the day what makes a handwound pickup sound good is just that-winding by human hand-not computer-real hands!! Since the dawn of computercontrolled technology companies and individuals have tried to get computers to mimic humans. I make concious decisions about the way I wind each coil depending on what it is I'm making and who I'm making it for and this goes right down to the pattern I wind, the speed, the tension throughout the coil and the time I take- a computerised winder will never do that, all it'll do is knock out pairs of identically wound coils which won't have anything like the extended frequency response of a handwound set of coils.If computers could so easily duplicate the way I scatterwind do you honestly think I'd spend the amount of time I do making p/ups by hand?I'd buy a computer controlled winder straight away if it was that simple but it's not and until I actually 'hear' the difference I'll stick to my way of working and getting tone.
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Amen! PDT_003
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Looks like Tim will have to wait for artificial intellegence (no, not blondes with dark dyed hair) and bio-mechanical hands.
Nah, real people will be cheaper anyway. :wink:
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Keep Doing it the way you do it, Tim! Another Amen!
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Amen is too religious for me... hmm
ill go with Kudos.
yer Kudos for what your doing Tim... but i also agree with Mark as far as one company is not the be all and end all... the pickups in Surh guitars could sund shite for all i care but my point is that people shouldnt think that BK's are the king of pickups and beat everything else hands-down...
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people shouldnt think that BK's are the king of pickups and beat everything else hands-down...
Its generally true though :P The SD in my strat sounds like shitee compared to the Mules in my LP
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how much did those SDs cost? and thats one company... and one pickup
so you CANT say 'generally' at all...
some people will have experimented with loads of pickups, and can therefore say they PREFER the sound of BK's... but a lot of people havent experimented... (myself being one of those people) and can only go on what we've heard... we've been through all this before- that tone is subjective- its personal preference... so for all i know i may LOVE the sound of an EMG81 far better than a Warpig...
and even if most people do prefer BKs then no-one should pretend that its by such a HUGE margin... maybe it is in some cases... probably isnt in others...
im just trying to look at it realistically... which im gonna stop now cause every time i try to with ANYTHING people start coming back with annoying stuff like that.
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for all i know i may LOVE the sound of an EMG81 far better than a Warpig...
With your ears, Sambo - I don't doubt it :roll: :P
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well there you go then you just proved me right... thanks.
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people shouldnt think that BK's are the king of pickups and beat everything else hands-down...
Its generally true though :P The SD in my strat sounds like shitee compared to the Mules in my LP
yeah, but I have fridge magnets that sound better than SD...
not knocking BK, by the way, I just always like to join in SD bashing at every possible opportunity.
:D
:drink:
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how much did those SDs cost? and thats one company... and one pickup
/quote]
I got it for £30 off ebay but arent they like £80 new or something stupid like that?
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Having tried nearly every manufaturer of pickups (including custom wound Seymour Duncan and Lindy Fralin), and also having way too many BK pickups for my own good, I can say that I can hear the difference that BK's make in my guitars.
However, I still have some SD's (though they are very old ones, or wound by Seymour in the custom shop), some Fralins (which were also custom wound), some original D'Armond, Daneletro, Fender and Gibson and yes some EMG's.
Basically I have not replaced everything, but whenever I compare the BK's to the others, I end up ordering more BK's! The worst example of this is my PRS's. I had very old 80's pickups in my Standard and EG, and early 90's artist pickups in my Artist II. I liked the 80's pickups much more than the 90's, and also wanted to try a Crawler on my EG. So I got a Crawler and 2 P-90 set for the EG. They sounded so good that I got a VHII set for my Artist, which transformed it. The problem was then that it sounded so much better than the standard with the 80's pickups! I finally put a set of Rebel Yells into the standard last November, and now it sounds great again.
The BK's raise your tonal expectations and then other pickups don't sound as good. But there are horses for courses, and sometimes I want to have that EMG sound, and I love the original JB (which is nothing like the new ones). Also my 62 tele sounds really sweet and I wouldn't change the sound of it at all.
So it is all down to what you want and what your ears tell you. I know that the d'Armonds are the pickups I would pick for that old rockabilly and blues sound (because that is what was used anyway), and BK don't make a pickup like it, but if they did I am also sure that it would sound better than the new d'Armonds because it would be hand wound like the older ones.
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^thats what i was effectively trying to say:
im not denying the outstanding quality of BKs... just saying that (to use the phrase Phil used) there are horses for courses e.t.c....
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Bill Lawrence L500XL.
DiMarzio Steve Special, Evolutions, PAF Pro, Air Norton.
Seymour Duncan JB, Invader
EMG 81, 85.
I like all of the above pickups for different reasons and sometimes want to compare them to my BKP's but havent had chance although I compared a JB to a VHII and Peavey Wolfgang bridge pickup and i'll tell u now i know which sounded better.
but everything has it's uses and i especially love the Evo's and L500XL's can't be beaten for lead work.. ok maybe a Miracle Man.. :P
I was using my Miracle Man at a gig not so long ago and a friend of mine and came up to me and said "I've never heard a guitar cut through like that, could hear everything".. thats better than the usual, "dude couldnt hear your solos"
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I know Tim is the greatest Pickup guru.
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^i give up
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^ You must never give up, your drive to make people believe is what makes this country what it is...
Ok, so that was rubbish, but I agree with you that there can be more than one pickup manufacturer at the top end of the market, and this Suhr guy may be one of them - but most people (including me) have not tried these other manufacturers, and have only discovered BKP's to be the top of the tree as far as making pickups goes, above those manufacturers that they HAVE tried (SD, DiMarzio etc) which don't come close to the quality of BK's...
So my point is, as far as most people on this forum are concerned, Tim is God, deservedly or not...But this may only be due to those same people having limited experience of the pickup market, and having discovered BKP's as the best pickups in the world, but not yet found anything of the same level...maybe
But on the plus side, Tim has nice hair (and BKP's are amazing :D )
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Computerised handwinding :lol: :lol:
Sure no two properly handwound coils are ever 'exactly' the same but the ballpark tone is virtually identical what you do hear are slightly different nuances of the same overall tone.
I just thought of the old Gibson PAF pickups. They would do the same thing, wind until there were around 5000 turns +/- but when you had one pickup wound a little more, it added character.
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Bill Lawrence L500XL.
DiMarzio Steve Special, Evolutions, PAF Pro, Air Norton.
Seymour Duncan JB, Invader
EMG 81, 85.
I like all of the above pickups for different reasons and sometimes want to compare them to my BKP's but havent had chance although I compared a JB to a VHII and Peavey Wolfgang bridge pickup and i'll tell u now i know which sounded better.
but everything has it's uses and i especially love the Evo's and L500XL's can't be beaten for lead work.. ok maybe a Miracle Man.. :P
I was using my Miracle Man at a gig not so long ago and a friend of mine and came up to me and said "I've never heard a guitar cut through like that, could hear everything".. thats better than the usual, "dude couldnt hear your solos"
I love the Evolutions for lead work. Not a L-500 fan at all, but I've always liked my Evolutions a lot and they have always been great for leads etc. I'm liking them more since I got the SL-X modded. They have great mids through my Major and now the same style mid sounds through the modded SL-X despite having a bit more gain.
I got my Rebel Yells today so we will see how they fare.
I don't particularly care for Duncans much. They all seem to have piss poor clarity and often seem to be way too muddy ;(
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:D So Suhr use`s computers to wind his P/U`s. His hardly going to admit that winding by hand is better is he, or he`d have to make his P/U`s by hand & he doesn`t want to.
As for BK`s i`ve used Dimarzio, Duncans, Rio Grande, Fralins etc i now use Bk to me & my ears there`s no contest Bk`s are far far far superior in sound & are not more expensive than Duncans !!
:D 8)
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^ You must never give up, your drive to make people believe is what makes this country what it is...
Ok, so that was rubbish, but I agree with you that there can be more than one pickup manufacturer at the top end of the market, and this Suhr guy may be one of them - but most people (including me) have not tried these other manufacturers, and have only discovered BKP's to be the top of the tree as far as making pickups goes, above those manufacturers that they HAVE tried (SD, DiMarzio etc) which don't come close to the quality of BK's...
So my point is, as far as most people on this forum are concerned, Tim is God, deservedly or not...But this may only be due to those same people having limited experience of the pickup market, and having discovered BKP's as the best pickups in the world, but not yet found anything of the same level...maybe
But on the plus side, Tim has nice hair (and BKP's are amazing :D )
haha yeah thats what i was getting at!!! i was saying, people SHOULDNT be saying that BK's slay EVERYTHING else out there with NO CONTEST WHAT SO EVER... when theyve only tried a very limited number of other pups... Tom's comment on the previous page is a prime example of this.. (sorry tom just cant be arsed to find other examples)... and im one of the inexpereienced people... thats why i dont go around saying BKPs are better than everything.. even though i do think my pickup is very, VERY nice... and im sure that the rest of the BK line is too...
anyway, thanks deg0ey... glad someone else can at least SEE my train of thought...
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Well thats true I havent played many SD's.. but the ones I have were no match for Bareknuckles, I mean the SD in my strat makes it sound thicker and muddier than my LP now I've got that installed.. it shouldnt be like that!
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haha yeah thats what i was getting at!!! i was saying, people SHOULDNT be saying that BK's slay EVERYTHING else out there with NO CONTEST WHAT SO EVER... when theyve only tried a very limited number of other pups... Tom's comment on the previous page is a prime example of this.. (sorry tom just cant be arsed to find other examples)... and im one of the inexpereienced people... thats why i dont go around saying BKPs are better than everything.. even though i do think my pickup is very, VERY nice... and im sure that the rest of the BK line is too...
I just don't think you should stress yourself about what other people are saying...I think based on the quality of Tim's pickups they're better than anything else i've ever used and that they could well be the best in teh world - I can't see how you could make an improvement :P
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If Tim started giving them away for free, that would be an improvement! :P Other than that, nothing else I can think of. :wink:
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" I can't see how you could make an improvement :P"
but thats the same with a lot of things...
for example, before getting my BKP... i thought my sound was great.... after the BKP... it sounds way better... but before... i couldnt have picked out something that could do with improving... i think you can only really do that when you have a lot of experience in a certain field.... and know where somethings lacking.. which i couldnt, and still cannot, do...
so what im getting at there is... there could a be little company in Peru making pickups ten times better than BKs that no-one knows about... and you may try them and have exactly the same opinion about BKs as you do about SDs.... (im using 'you' as a general term).... see?
unlikely, but you never know...
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" I can't see how you could make an improvement :P"
but thats the same with a lot of things...
for example, before getting my BKP... i thought my sound was great.... after the BKP... it sounds way better... but before... i couldnt have picked out something that could do with improving... i think you can only really do that when you have a lot of experience in a certain field.... and know where somethings lacking.. which i couldnt, and still cannot, do...
so what im getting at there is... there could a be little company in Peru making pickups ten times better than BKs that no-one knows about... and you may try them and have exactly the same opinion about BKs as you do about SDs.... (im using 'you' as a general term).... see?
unlikely, but you never know...
agreed. unfortunately, I did not realise this before purchasing my damn marshall avt combo. :evil: :(
you have wisdom beyond your years, sambo. Now, have you bought that damn engl yet?
:lol:
:drink:
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haha well ive got going on for £400 in my bank... plus selling my two current amps... = £200-300 more... = £600-700.... so.... could happen...
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^ ah, cool.
pm sent- don't want to off-rail this convo, lol.
:drink:
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It's like this really.
We makes our choice, pays our money to Tim and get pickups that are made with care and attention. Oh, and they are of the highest sonic quality.
We're on to a good thing, others aren't.
So what's to worry about? Let Suhr and the others get on with it, after all we know the real story don't we?
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ok this really is the last time im gonna say anything.. (i dunno if that was directed at me in particular or not but anywho)
im not worrying... just SAYING... just TRYING to look at this in PERSPECTIVE...
people have constantly missed that point... and by the sounds of things have also missed the fact that i love my BK...
pffffffffft
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So what's to worry about? Let Suhr and the others get on with it, after all we know the real story don't we?
I agree, but I hate the ignorant people who will only try/listen to the name brands, like for example a friend of mine was confused why my Epiphone with Mules sounds better than his Gibson through the same setup, he said "In theory mine should sound better, as its gibson humbuckers and a gibson guitar" HAHAHA!
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ok this really is the last time im gonna say anything.. (i dunno if that was directed at me in particular or not but anywho)
im not worrying... just SAYING... just TRYING to look at this in PERSPECTIVE...
people have constantly missed that point... and by the sounds of things have also missed the fact that i love my BK...
pffffffffft
Ease up Tiger! It's not about you. :wink:
Tom, I agree with you but, ignorant ppl are always there (they annoy me too) and other makers will always cloud the real issues to get a sale. (Shrug)
If the p'up sounds right - it is right. I think your mate discovered that.
Long live BKP and their ridiculously underpriced pickups for what ya get (don't tell Tim).
That's what I'm driving at.
cheers,
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It is good to keep an open mind...
The day I discovered BKPs was a happy one and I have been working on guitars for 20 years and I look forward to my next "pleasant discovery"
I am really into companies that strive for quality and to constantly raise the bar or the standard of what they make - it is one of the things I love about how Tim runs BKP.
To be fair I also personally know Seymour Duncan and he is also a mine of great knowledge and information and is constantly trying to push the boundaries too in his hand-wound workshop (as opposed to the production facility) In my own workshop I have to keep perspective on all the available brands - but my love of BKPs does run away with me too at times.
The constant striving for improvement and raising standards is the same ethos that we have at Feline and I have seen similar ideas in other small makers here in the UK - like Black Machine, Organic and Nathan Sheppard to name but a few....
But you do have to be careful not to get blinkered through your love and appreciation of one particular brand or company - like the people who say it HAS to be Gibson or Fender and the like, as you shut your eyes and ears to other great things that can rock your world.
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I agree, but I hate the ignorant people who will only try/listen to the name brands
Like a mate of mine who thought I was stupid to buy an ENGL 'cause he'd never heard of them, and then he said that it couldn't be as good as his AVT 'cause it's not a marshall...I proceeded to crank it with him stood next to it, and he soon shut up :lol:
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But you do have to be careful not to get blinkered through your love and appreciation of one particular brand or company - like the people who say it HAS to be Gibson or Fender and the like, as you shut your eyes and ears to other great things that can rock your world.
superb jonathan... thats the perfect summary. nice one.
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I agree, but I hate the ignorant people who will only try/listen to the name brands
Like a mate of mine who thought I was stupid to buy an ENGL 'cause he'd never heard of them, and then he said that it couldn't be as good as his AVT 'cause it's not a marshall...I proceeded to crank it with him stood next to it, and he soon shut up :lol:
haha, agreed. I tried my avt next to my engl the other night, and it was pretty obvious who won. At all volume levels.
Sambo/Feline: agreed.
The way I look at it is this: the way we found these slightly more obscure/less mainstream/boutique (no offence meant to BK, you know what I mean, by obscure I mean better, lol) companies was by being cynical of the major companies and trying out everything we could get our hands on (I know I haven't tried BK's, but I prefer some other "boutique" companies (EDIT: not necessarily pickups) to their mainstream equivalent). We'd be betraying this system of thinking if, once we found a good boutique company, we stopped this objective (at least, as objective as it can be)method of judging kit and merely became fanboys.
And while I'm sure Tim likes the sales, I'm sure he'd much prefer to be getting sales because people have tried all the pickups that are available (within reason) and liked his best, rather than because they're all fanboys... Also, it helps us because it means Tim needs to be on his toes with good new models... :twisted:
Just my two cents on the matter. Apologies for the overuse of brackets and flowery language, I tend to type as I think... :oops: :lol:
:drink:
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haha thats a great extension to the point...
totally agree with you... nice one.
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^ :drink:
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Find the comments about the Suhr luthery skills eclipsing that of Tom Anderson and Tyler etc. at odds with my own experience. As someone who spent a long time owning a Suhr to sell it for a Tyler I would personally disagree. The likes of James Tyler and Don Grosh just seem to be able to craft necks that have a more personable feel to Suhr. Just my opinion based on my own having owned and played numerous examples of both Suhr and Tyler.
Tim's single coils are head and shoulders above any others I have tried. I use the Irish Tour's and I am currently borrowing a friends CS Strat with a set of Apache's. Both sets are fantastic. :D