Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Tricalibur on July 28, 2006, 07:51:06 PM
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Ive been researching some realy cool amps made by Electric Amp Innovations. The thing thats so cool 'bout them is that they use oldschool parts and components. So basicly they build their amps how amps were made in the late 60's-70's which gives them a very vintage saturated kind of tone thats seems very reminiscent of early Sab Records. (which of course peaks my intrest :D). Any who, they offer three different tube types on all their amps; EL34, 6550 and KT88, each of which will yield a different output wattage. So EL34 - 120 watts, 6550 - 160 watts and KT88 - 180 to 200. I have been in contact with the owner of the company for the past week trying to get some information regarding which amp would get me the best 'Master Of Reality' era Sab tone and it seems the EL34's would prob be the best choice considering they are pretty much THE choice power tubes in vintage style amps. However, the guy also said that the KT88's would basicly get me EL34 esque tone but at "mondo-volume" levels. Now im not much of a tube guy. I cant realy tell the diffrenece between different power tubes so well and I honestly dont have a whole lot of experience with tube amps period. So what do you more experienced people here think? Would KT88's be to modern sounding maybe? Would EL34's be more apropriet for the tone I'm trying to achieve?
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dunno about the difference between kt88 and el34, but you do realise that 200 watts (heck, even 50!) is loud as hell?
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kt88 sounds BIG, huge headroom
el34 sounds middy, earlier breakup
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I know itd be loud as hell but thats pretty much what im goin for. As in I want something louder than anything anybody else has. What do you mean by 'huge headroom'? I know I want an extremely 'Big' sound so I think the KT88 is the one i want. I mean 200 watts cant be that much louder than 100 right? Like how 100 is actualy only a few db's louder than 50. It'll just sound a lot larger. I think 8)
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Headroom refers to how loud you can turn up whilst still keeping the tone nearly 100 percent clean; hence, no breakup or distorting going on. (OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT!)
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Is the guy using different transformers for EL34s versus KT88s? - you won't get 200w out of a quad of KT88s using a 100w EL34 transformer set, you WILL get a different tone though with more headroom.
I've just put 6550s in a mate's 2203 and even at bedroom volume there is more bass and a fuller tone. I personally prefer 6550s or KT88s in any amp that has a fair amount of gain and a master volume - they just give you 'more' of that kind of tone.
:twisted:
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The big difference between a 1959 Marshall 100w and the 200w Majors was the fact that the latter had 200w output transformers and ran KT88's instead of EL34's. You wouldn't get 200w without the higher rated transformer, but you might get a tone a bit more closer to a Marshall Major.
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I know itd be loud as hell but thats pretty much what im goin for. As in I want something louder than anything anybody else has. What do you mean by 'huge headroom'? I know I want an extremely 'Big' sound so I think the KT88 is the one i want. I mean 200 watts cant be that much louder than 100 right? Like how 100 is actualy only a few db's louder than 50. It'll just sound a lot larger. I think 8)
ok, fair enough.
i have a pentode/triode switch on my amp to switch from 100 to 50 watts, and the difference in volume is noticeable...
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Side note:
Thanks dave, I'd been trying to remember the tavern's address for a while.
So, valves, eh?
Side note 2:
I'd never noticed the connection before but I know a girl called Katie who was born in 1988.
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^ :lol:
:drink:
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The big difference between a 1959 Marshall 100w and the 200w Majors was the fact that the latter had 200w output transformers and ran KT88's instead of EL34's. You wouldn't get 200w without the higher rated transformer, but you might get a tone a bit more closer to a Marshall Major.
Yeh, Im assuming thats what Electric amps are doing. Running larger output transformers with diffeent tube types. So would this basicly mean that I could have an EL34 powered amp but with a larger output transformer and still be able to get a 200 watt rating? Would you need to have twice as many el34's?
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Electric Amps used to distribute Matamp, now they build copies of Matamp's.
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there not so much copies as they are handmade replicas of what Matamp USED to make back in the 60's and 70's. Check out this page if your intrested; http://www.electricamp.com/real-turrett-board-point-to-point-steel-chassis-tube-amps.html
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Odd, most Matamps and Oranges of the 70s, the 120w era, were PCB.....
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I know itd be loud as hell but thats pretty much what im goin for. As in I want something louder than anything anybody else has. What do you mean by 'huge headroom'? I know I want an extremely 'Big' sound so I think the KT88 is the one i want. I mean 200 watts cant be that much louder than 100 right? Like how 100 is actualy only a few db's louder than 50. It'll just sound a lot larger. I think 8)
ok, fair enough.
i have a pentode/triode switch on my amp to switch from 100 to 50 watts, and the difference in volume is noticeable...
A pentode/triode switch works differently to halving the wattage; it reconfigures the tubes in an operation in triode mode that in real terms makes the amp a lot less wattage than half. Basically halving the wattage doesn't halve the level of sound output, but reconfiguring the tubes in triode operation will reduce the sound to about 60% of it's full volume level.
I think the reason wattage gets confused with volume so much is that people don't realise these amps are rated for wattage at how much clean power they have, not full volume. A 1959slp Marshall can put out 100 watts of clean power, but at full clipping can easily be found to put out 150w RMS of power.
The big difference between a 1959 Marshall 100w and the 200w Majors was the fact that the latter had 200w output transformers and ran KT88's instead of EL34's. You wouldn't get 200w without the higher rated transformer, but you might get a tone a bit more closer to a Marshall Major.
Yeh, Im assuming thats what Electric amps are doing. Running larger output transformers with diffeent tube types. So would this basicly mean that I could have an EL34 powered amp but with a larger output transformer and still be able to get a 200 watt rating? Would you need to have twice as many el34's?
Since EL34's have a typical plate dissipation of about 25 watts, yeah you'd probably need 8 to get 200w from them. How you'd go about doing it, I'm not sure, there must be a good reason why Marshall didn't go down this route and used higher rated equipment instead (less space, less heat, less hassle?).
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Just in case you're interested in how much louder (all things equal) your 200 watt amp will be compared to my 50 watt or dave's 100 watt, the equation is as follows:
10 log (watts A/watts B)
You do the more powerful amp as A and the less powerful B...
So, your amp vs dave's would mean
10 log (200/100) = 10 log 2 = 10 x 0.3 = 3dB
Now, 3 dB is the smallest difference in volume the average human ear can detect, and then only if they are heard side by side - in a gig situation nobody would be able to tell you were louder than anyone else due to cab dynamics and different speakers. Just so you know, you could get a bigger increase in volume by just changing the speaker out for something more sensitive (is that the word?)
Okay, so in comparison to my Screamer (which is $%&#ing loud - never been past 6 on the volume) you would be:
10 log 4 = 6dB louder
This is a bigger volume difference, but still not even twice as loud as my amp. 5dB is a sort of volume difference that people might notice in a gig situation, when not necessarily at the same time they may think "ah, he's a bit louder than the guy before" but still not enough to make people think "wooooaaah that guy is loud!"
The point I'm trying to make here is that you shouldn't get the 200 watt amp because of its power, as it will really not make that much of a difference in any situation (except it will have higher headroom, and take much longer to reach breakup - usually a bad thing). You would be much better off picking your amp based on its tonal qualities rather than the fact it's 200 watts - if you prefer the tone of KT88s then get those, but if you would actually rather the sound of EL34s then that would be your better bet as the extra power translates to very little volume difference overall.
You'd be better off investing in a more efficient set of speakers and a decent cab if you want more physical volume :drink:
sidenote: Hey Ben, I'm doing my audiologist impression again - twice in as many days :lol:
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[A pentode/triode switch works differently to halving the wattage; it reconfigures the tubes in an operation in triode mode that in real terms makes the amp a lot less wattage than half. Basically halving the wattage doesn't halve the level of sound output, but reconfiguring the tubes in triode operation will reduce the sound to about 60% of it's full volume level.
aye, that's what I was unsure about. In my manual it says the triode drops it to 60% of the wattage, but I think they mean "volume". though the genz benz el-diablo also says its pentode/triode switch halves the wattage. Garg, I dunno, and am willing to admit as much. It's noticeably quieter, and has a noticeably different tone too, which a half power switch wouldn't really do EDIT: i think.
:drink:
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yeh, ya'll are prob right then. 200 watts would realy be a waste of 400 more dollars unless I invest even more money into speakers/cabs. And If I ran a 200 watt amp with 8 EL34's it might be likely to catch fire on stage. And though this would make for an awesome stage show I dont think it would work out so well in the long run. :D
Ok, so basicly I have a question about speaker distortion / clipping or whatever you call it. If I ran a 120 watt head into two 4 x 12 cabs at full volume, what kind of speakers would I need to have in the cabs (Wattage-wise)in order to achieve speaker cistortion / clip without destroying my speakers. I understand what Bainsey said about amps being able to produce far more wattage than they are rated for. But I want to be able to drive the speakers hard while not running the risk of blowing one so what kind of speakers might be best for this sort of application? I was thinking maybe 25-30 watt greenbacks?
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unless I incest even more money into speakers/cabs
I'm praying to god that was a typo...
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^ LOL I cant believe you caught that. :lol: I changed it like a minute after I posted. This is terrible 8)
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If you're running a 120w head flat out into a pair of 4x12s loaded with G12H-30s then you'll be ok but they WILL eventually fail - you're running them hard and the voice coils will be smokin' :lol:
If you want to reliably run an amp at that volume then it's gotta be V30s, but they won't breakup like the G12H-30s. You gotta decide if you want the tone that bad that you're willing to shell out for speakers all the time.
I personally got sick of blowing speakers and moved to V30s, you just need to change your EQ setting around and make the best of it.
:twisted:
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How often did they go?
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Bear in mind that it's unlikely that you'll ever be running the amp at it's full wattage totally through the speakers. I don't think you'd need to run the amp flat out unless you were playing the Royal Albert Hall, and by the time you play venues that big you'll be using their PA systems so will need to turn down a bit. Although running heads putting out more wattage than cabs can handle is unsafe normally, if the head is attenuated it doesn't really matter.
I use G12M25's in a 4x12 with my Marshall 1959slp and I've never EVER blown a speaker. I've had it on full tilt a few times, but that's just those days when you know everyone in the street is at work and your curious to see how loud the amp actually goes :wink:
The G12M25's can realistically probably handle up to 30 watts before they start to discombobulate, and most 100w amps tend not to go higher than 120 watts. The ones that do go higher are the ones with really high plate voltage and/or ones that are overbiased.
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unless I incest even more money into speakers/cabs
I'm praying to god that was a typo...
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Roll on Heritage G12-65...should be the ultimate 80s marshall tone speaker!
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^ are they out yet?
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Bear in mind that it's unlikely that you'll ever be running the amp at it's full wattage totally through the speakers. I don't think you'd need to run the amp flat out unless you were playing the Royal Albert Hall, and by the time you play venues that big you'll be using their PA systems so will need to turn down a bit. Although running heads putting out more wattage than cabs can handle is unsafe normally, if the head is attenuated it doesn't really matter.
I use G12M25's in a 4x12 with my Marshall 1959slp and I've never EVER blown a speaker. I've had it on full tilt a few times, but that's just those days when you know everyone in the street is at work and your curious to see how loud the amp actually goes :wink:
The G12M25's can realistically probably handle up to 30 watts before they start to discombobulate, and most 100w amps tend not to go higher than 120 watts. The ones that do go higher are the ones with really high plate voltage and/or ones that are overbiased.
Thats all true but I want to be able to get speaker distortion in addition to power amp dist when running the amp un-attenuated at full volume. I know I would prob never be able to do this in a live situation, but Im gonna record with it on weekends. I'm trying to get the most distortion out of a vintage style amp as I can. So tha basicly means im gonna turn the power amp all the way up, crank the 'Fuzz' / Drive control all the way and then run the amp itself straight into 2 4x12's. And I might use a treble booster or something in front of the amp for that extra bite.
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^ are they out yet?
Not yet - Celestion UK are being really cr@p at delivering of late.
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can i have a pair of those?
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^ are they out yet?
Not yet - Celestion UK are being really cr@p at delivering of late.
ok, cool. Thanks hayden. And they'd be good for 80's rock/metal, yeah? I'm assuming the price'll be around £80-£90 (at least, that's roughly what the other heritage ones are), and they're UK made?
:drink:
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Ive been researching some realy cool amps made by Electric Amp Innovations. The thing thats so cool 'bout them is that they use oldschool parts and components. So basicly they build their amps how amps were made in the late 60's-70's which gives them a very vintage saturated kind of tone thats seems very reminiscent of early Sab Records. (which of course peaks my intrest :D). Any who, they offer three different tube types on all their amps; EL34, 6550 and KT88, each of which will yield a different output wattage. So EL34 - 120 watts, 6550 - 160 watts and KT88 - 180 to 200. I have been in contact with the owner of the company for the past week trying to get some information regarding which amp would get me the best 'Master Of Reality' era Sab tone and it seems the EL34's would prob be the best choice considering they are pretty much THE choice power tubes in vintage style amps. However, the guy also said that the KT88's would basicly get me EL34 esque tone but at "mondo-volume" levels. Now im not much of a tube guy. I cant realy tell the diffrenece between different power tubes so well and I honestly dont have a whole lot of experience with tube amps period. So what do you more experienced people here think? Would KT88's be to modern sounding maybe? Would EL34's be more apropriet for the tone I'm trying to achieve?
If I were you I would look at the genuine article instead of Electric Amp Innovations. I've heard several reports about this company and as many people have already pointed out, essentially this company builds Matamp copies, essentially trading off the name.
I would strongly recommend speaking to the guys at Matamp. They are a fountain of knowledge when it comes to tube amps, plus they can tailor your chosen amps to your specific needs ie, voice it to your tastes or customise it's appearance.
http://www.matamp.co.uk
I own a King Street and Minimat. The King Street is great for hitting the 70's Marshall era tone and has enough gain on tap to get into 80's Marshall territory. However, reading what you want tonally, I would hazzard a guess that one of the Root series amps will deliver the tones you are after. However, the guys at Matamp will be able to advise you far better than I can.
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^ are they out yet?
Not yet - Celestion UK are being really cr@p at delivering of late.
ok, cool. Thanks hayden. And they'd be good for 80's rock/metal, yeah? I'm assuming the price'll be around £80-£90 (at least, that's roughly what the other heritage ones are), and they're UK made?
:drink:
Yes, UK made, they're 65watt and were fitted in the early 80s to Marshall cabs before they went onto G12T drivers. According to the blurb they're the ultimate early JCM800 speaker. I think they'll be in the £80 range. They launched them at NAMM in January....along with the 40w alnico but still no production runs of either!
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Bear in mind that it's unlikely that you'll ever be running the amp at it's full wattage totally through the speakers. I don't think you'd need to run the amp flat out unless you were playing the Royal Albert Hall, and by the time you play venues that big you'll be using their PA systems so will need to turn down a bit. Although running heads putting out more wattage than cabs can handle is unsafe normally, if the head is attenuated it doesn't really matter.
I use G12M25's in a 4x12 with my Marshall 1959slp and I've never EVER blown a speaker. I've had it on full tilt a few times, but that's just those days when you know everyone in the street is at work and your curious to see how loud the amp actually goes :wink:
The G12M25's can realistically probably handle up to 30 watts before they start to discombobulate, and most 100w amps tend not to go higher than 120 watts. The ones that do go higher are the ones with really high plate voltage and/or ones that are overbiased.
Thats all true but I want to be able to get speaker distortion in addition to power amp dist when running the amp un-attenuated at full volume. I know I would prob never be able to do this in a live situation, but Im gonna record with it on weekends. I'm trying to get the most distortion out of a vintage style amp as I can. So tha basicly means im gonna turn the power amp all the way up, crank the 'Fuzz' / Drive control all the way and then run the amp itself straight into 2 4x12's. And I might use a treble booster or something in front of the amp for that extra bite.
If you're using two 4x12's then there's no problem whatsoever with what you use, a 100w amp would not put out enough power to blow any of them (G12M's, G12H30's etc). Having both cabs connected is like having an 8x12 cab in terms of what the amp "sees" connected to it, so your wattage required to blow a speaker doubles. That's how bands in the 60's and 70's got away with using 100w Marshalls with these speakers - they had a stack in their setup and not just one cab.
If you're using different speakers in the other cab, remember; the rated wattage of the cabs becomes the lowest speaker value times how many speakers you have. So if you have G12M25's in one and G12H30's in the other, the overall rating is still only 200 watts (8x25), not 220 (4x25 + 4x30). That's because all the speakers will be the same impedance and thus draw the same amount of power from the amplifier.
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And although a 100 watt amp will often deliver more than 100 watts of power at full blast, it's unlikely to be more than 200 watts - and therefore not damaging your speakers :drink:
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Yes, UK made, they're 65watt and were fitted in the early 80s to Marshall cabs before they went onto G12T drivers. According to the blurb they're the ultimate early JCM800 speaker. I think they'll be in the £80 range. They launched them at NAMM in January....along with the 40w alnico but still no production runs of either!
cool, thanks hayden. I guess I'd better keep an eye out...
:drink:
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I've used to play through a single 100w 4x12 with a cranked 100w plexi as my main gig rig a few years back, the speakers held up for a good while but I did have a spate of 'em blowing (I'm on about eight speakers here) so they DO eventually give it up.
The best way to prolong speaker life when using low wattage speakers is to warm them up - let some hiss come through them, strum light clean chords for a few minutes. This will warm up the voice coil and lessen the chance of it burning out. The easiest way to blow speakers is to switch on and proceed to pummel the speakers with a loud overdriven tone.
This tip was passed on to me by a very knowledgeable gent who was product manager at Celestion for many years - he knew a thing or two about speakers.
:twisted:
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I've used to play through a single 100w 4x12 with a cranked 100w plexi as my main gig rig a few years back, the speakers held up for a good while but I did have a spate of 'em blowing (I'm on about eight speakers here) so they DO eventually give it up.
But what Bainzy was saying was that those speakers wouldn't have blown if you had been using 2 4x12s...The amp only puts 100 watts clean - when overdriven it puts out more than 100 watts, which is why it blew the speakers
2 cabs loaded with those speakers would be rated 200 watts and therefore would not blow
Maybe that's wrong, but it's my understanding of what was said :P
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Ive been researching some realy cool amps made by Electric Amp Innovations. The thing thats so cool 'bout them is that they use oldschool parts and components. So basicly they build their amps how amps were made in the late 60's-70's which gives them a very vintage saturated kind of tone thats seems very reminiscent of early Sab Records. (which of course peaks my intrest :D). Any who, they offer three different tube types on all their amps; EL34, 6550 and KT88, each of which will yield a different output wattage. So EL34 - 120 watts, 6550 - 160 watts and KT88 - 180 to 200. I have been in contact with the owner of the company for the past week trying to get some information regarding which amp would get me the best 'Master Of Reality' era Sab tone and it seems the EL34's would prob be the best choice considering they are pretty much THE choice power tubes in vintage style amps. However, the guy also said that the KT88's would basicly get me EL34 esque tone but at "mondo-volume" levels. Now im not much of a tube guy. I cant realy tell the diffrenece between different power tubes so well and I honestly dont have a whole lot of experience with tube amps period. So what do you more experienced people here think? Would KT88's be to modern sounding maybe? Would EL34's be more apropriet for the tone I'm trying to achieve?
If I were you I would look at the genuine article instead of Electric Amp Innovations. I've heard several reports about this company and as many people have already pointed out, essentially this company builds Matamp copies, essentially trading off the name.
I would strongly recommend speaking to the guys at Matamp. They are a fountain of knowledge when it comes to tube amps, plus they can tailor your chosen amps to your specific needs ie, voice it to your tastes or customise it's appearance.
http://www.matamp.co.uk
I own a King Street and Minimat. The King Street is great for hitting the 70's Marshall era tone and has enough gain on tap to get into 80's Marshall territory. However, reading what you want tonally, I would hazzard a guess that one of the Root series amps will deliver the tones you are after. However, the guys at Matamp will be able to advise you far better than I can.
I was in contact with the owner of Electric Amps via email for a little while and he basicly led me to believe matamps pretty much sounded like triple rectifiers or 5150's. He said that all the matamps they ever imported were either modded or heavily serviced. Reading back on it now it all sorta sounds a little fishy though there amps do look realy nice and all. What sorto of 'reports' have you heard?
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I was in contact with the owner of Electric Amps via email for a little while and he basicly led me to believe matamps pretty much sounded like triple rectifiers or 5150's. He said that all the matamps they ever imported were either modded or heavily serviced. Reading back on it now it all sorta sounds a little fishy though there amps do look realy nice and all. What sorto of 'reports' have you heard?
I have heard quite a lot of Matamps in my time (including the originals and many early Orange amps [once being an Orange dealer]). I also had the pleasure of being at the matamp Factory earlier this year, and I can tell you that their amps sound great. You could probably get a 5150 or Triple Rectifier sound if you wanted to, but you can get any of the classic rock sounds and many other clean sounds too. The most amazing is the 1224 mk 11, but I bought a Mini-Mat and I will be getting a bigger brother for it as soon as I have sorted my house out here.
I have heard a few rumours about how the guy at Electric Amps tried to 'hijack' the Matamp name. If you are in the US, I know it is easier to go with a manufacturer here, but if you want a Matamp, then go to matamp.
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I was in contact with the owner of Electric Amps via email for a little while and he basicly led me to believe matamps pretty much sounded like triple rectifiers or 5150's. He said that all the matamps they ever imported were either modded or heavily serviced. Reading back on it now it all sorta sounds a little fishy though there amps do look realy nice and all. What sorto of 'reports' have you heard?
I have heard quite a lot of Matamps in my time (including the originals and many early Orange amps [once being an Orange dealer]). I also had the pleasure of being at the matamp Factory earlier this year, and I can tell you that their amps sound great. You could probably get a 5150 or Triple Rectifier sound if you wanted to, but you can get any of the classic rock sounds and many other clean sounds too. The most amazing is the 1224 mk 11, but I bought a Mini-Mat and I will be getting a bigger brother for it as soon as I have sorted my house out here.
I have heard a few rumours about how the guy at Electric Amps tried to 'hijack' the Matamp name. If you are in the US, I know it is easier to go with a manufacturer here, but if you want a Matamp, then go to matamp.
Phil nails it. Matamp have expanded their product range to cater for the diverse musical tastes, however what you have been told is not correct. Matamp still produce amps that pay homage to their roots.
Plus I would also bet that the quality of the product is beyond that of the ex US distributor that is trading off their name. In fact, there are few manufacturers out there that can boast the build quality of Matamp's. It far outweighs the price you pay for their products.
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I've used to play through a single 100w 4x12 with a cranked 100w plexi as my main gig rig a few years back, the speakers held up for a good while but I did have a spate of 'em blowing (I'm on about eight speakers here) so they DO eventually give it up.
But what Bainzy was saying was that those speakers wouldn't have blown if you had been using 2 4x12s...The amp only puts 100 watts clean - when overdriven it puts out more than 100 watts, which is why it blew the speakers
2 cabs loaded with those speakers would be rated 200 watts and therefore would not blow
Maybe that's wrong, but it's my understanding of what was said :P
I was referring to Bainzy's earlier post about running a single 4x12 with a 100w head - just a note for people to be cautious really.
While speakers blow easiest when blasting more through them than they are rated for, it's actually repeated blasting from cold that kills most of them eventually - I kiled a 150w Celestion sidewinder with a Selmer 50w T&B head.
:twisted:
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KT88s can be abused to get up to 200, but in a 100 watt amp they will put out 100 watts.
They stay fairly clean and compress a little more than 6550s despite being the military grade tubes and able to handle more abuse.... I have a '69 Marshall Major with a quad of SED KT88s in it and they're quite full and compressed sounding.