Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: AdamB on August 06, 2006, 10:18:15 PM
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Hi,
I have had a Rebel Yell in my Gibson SG X for a while now and absolutley love it! I have a Peavey 5150 II and a Mesa recto cab, thing is, i've just resently upgraded my head to a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier (2 channel, 1993, black plate model, very nice!!)
I've not had much chance to crank my Mesa up and try it's real potential, and it seems quite hard to dial in 'that tone' that i want! Somewhere between Comeback Kid (www.myspace.com/comebackkid) and BigWig (invitation to tradegy era if anyone knows it?! If not, www.myspace.com/bigwignj they're newer songs with a slightly treblier tone than i'm after) but yeah, a mix between them two, very thick, defined, without any farting!!
Just wondering if anyone here has a dual rec and could help me out with this?
Please don't say 'use your own ears' and 'we can't tell you the tone you want' cos when i turn it up (the neighbours aren't happy then) the tone drastically changes from the low volume settings.
I've got down a few from grail tone etc, but any help would be amazing!!
Also, anyone took out 2 of the power valves to take it down to 50watts? Does it still sound desent cos you can crank it hard?
Cheers in advance
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That change in tone could be because you hear more treble and bass and loud volumes. Try turning down the treble and bass and boosting the mids a bit when you turn it up high.
But yeah, the tone does also change in the sound when you crank it. You hear more of the amp and less of the room.
But that "fart" you are describing seems to be that deep gnarling metal growl. If you don't like that I would not have gone with a Rectifier. You could try removing more mids and bass and turn down the gain, that might "unfart" it a bit.
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Try using the SS recitifier instead of the valve one.
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Swap out the rectifier tubes for JJ GZ-34s! It did wonders for my Dual Recto! Tightness, definition, and better but in a band mix! Amazing tubes!
As for settings, this is what I use:
Modern (going to be channel 2 for you, I have a 3 channel)
Tube Rectifier, w/ JJs
Presence: 10 o'clock
Gain: 2:30
Bass: 12
Mids: 2
Treble: 10
I hate scooped tones, and that gives me a huge, crunchy, and definited tone, that is not harsh in the high end either!
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try using a hotplate with it so you can get the beast cranked and sounding like a recto should, not a fizz box like rectos and 5150's sound when they're not cranked.
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The farting is just when i palm mute on G, G sharp and A on the E string
I've heard good and bad things about the thd hotplates, about losing lots of tone etc, is this true?
Cheers ibanez4life sz, i've wrote down them setting along with loads more, so i'll let you know how it goes :) I'll look into them jj rectifier tubes too
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The farting is just when i palm mute on G, G sharp and A on the E string
I've heard good and bad things about the thd hotplates, about losing lots of tone etc, is this true?
Cheers ibanez4life sz, i've wrote down them setting along with loads more, so i'll let you know how it goes :) I'll look into them jj rectifier tubes too
Hotplates only really suck tone when you turn it down to -16 and below.
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Ok man, cheers
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Swap out the rectifier tubes for JJ GZ-34s! It did wonders for my Dual Recto! Tightness, definition, and better but in a band mix! Amazing tubes!
Are these better than the mesa rectifier tubes then?
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They are better by far!
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Cool, ordering.....
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be careful, remember, using non mesa tubes voids your warranty. anyone had a problem with their dual rec fx loops completley dying? (ie, master and solo volumes cant be used no matter how you set up the back switches etc.)
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For metal tones I would not bother with valve rectifiers - the GZ34 offers a minimal amount of 'sag' so I wouldn't even bother. I typically notice a slightly glassier/chimier top end with valve rectifiers but it's not what I'd pick for metal tones (or anything heavier than AC/DC).
I wouldn't advise getting a hotplate for an amp with so much gain either. Get yourself an MXR 10-band EQ for the effects loop and tweak your tone to taste - this will give you ALOT of control over your tone.
From my experience with a Single Recto I would say that the tone didn't change that much as it was turned up. Certainly not like a JMP Marshall for instance which is night & day at bedroom or stage volumes.
What output valves does it have btw? - a good fresh set of 6L6s with a bias job could be just what you need. How fresh are the preamp valves?
:twisted:
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ibanez4life SZ - Thanks for those settings!!! It sounded amazing tonight at practice! Done a few fine tweeks, but never the less, thanks so much!
HEAVIER THAN HELL - I rang up watford valves today and had a long chat, as it happens i don't need new rectifier valves as i use the solid state (silly me), but i bought some JJ power valves and EH gold pre amp valves, the guy i bought it off said the tubes have only had 10hours of use, but i was unsure, they are all mesa except the pre amps are harma (watford valves own make) So yeah, about the warrenty, from what the guy at watford valves was saying is that mesa just buy aload of cheap valves in, either russian or chinese and then computertest them, put mesa on them, and charge far too much. So, although i'm happy with the sound at the moment, hopefully the new pre and power valves will makie it that bit sweeter!
:D
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The settings I gave you are very odd for a Mesa, but they are easily one of the best I've found!
I'd still try the JJ's! Get them, and put the amp in Tube recto mode! They wil be the perfect compromise between SS and tube rectification IMO! And at only $28, you really have nothing to lose!
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The settings I gave you are very odd for a Mesa, but they are easily one of the best I've found!
I'd still try the JJ's! Get them, and put the amp in Tube recto mode! They wil be the perfect compromise between SS and tube rectification IMO! And at only $28, you really have nothing to lose!
Fair do, i guess it's worth getting them eh?!
I'll order some next week when i've got some more cash
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There is certainly no harm in trying some GZ34s in there though I still don't think they'll be what you're after (looser bass, glassier highs).
JJ 6L6s are a solid valve, they'll do very nicely indeed (make sure to get the amp biased).
from what the guy at watford valves was saying is that mesa just buy aload of cheap valves in, either russian or chinese and then computertest them, put mesa on them, and charge far too much.
ahem... Pot, Kettle, Black. Watford Valves don't physically manufacture any valves. Last time I checked they were just rebranding JJ valves under their 'Harma' name. The brass of some people :roll:
:twisted:
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:lol: :lol:
You could put them in the freezer.......
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you can't bias dual recs can you?
mesa make them run quite cold anyway, so they'll be fine
like with my 5150 II, with the bias set at 'hottest' it's still quite cold, -55 volts, wish i could mod it, or at least find somewhere cheap and near to do it
http://mesaboogie.com/US/Smith/biasadjust.html
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If you know your way round an amp it's easy to modify the bias supply to alter the bias voltage 'range'.
In 'fixed' bias amps such as Boogies you can install a variable resistor in order to dial in the bias for a specific set of valves.
Alternatively, you can pay well over the odds for Mesa-branded valves that are typically Chinese-made and pop them in the amp, voila!!! (instant compromised tone)
:twisted:
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but it shouldn't need re biasing like you said when i put the JJ's in?!?!
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Rectifier tubes don't need biasing.
If you decide to go with power tubes from JJ, tell him what amp they are for, and he will give you a tube (hotter or colder) which will allow it to run at the proper bias!
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Mesa Boogie kicks so much ass because they explain EVERYTHING on that website. That is one of the major reasons why my next tube amp will be from Mesa Boogie
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No, the JJ power valves!
How do you bias an amp with no bias control!? Surely it won't need biasing when i put them in, if they draw any more current, surely that will be a good thing becuase then they might run abit hotter
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Mesa Boogie kicks so much ass because they explain EVERYTHING on that website. That is one of the major reasons why my next tube amp will be from Mesa Boogie
I've worked on Mesa/Boogie amps, the build quality aint as good as they would have you believe :roll:
Saying that, I've yet to play a Boogie that didn't sound good - they're just overpriced for what they are.
They are also the kings of 'spin' - what they say about biasing isn't strictly true. You don't need to rebias your Boogie IF you get the coorect graded valves from Boogie which are invariably Chinese-made pap. Oh, and this also assumes that the matching of the valves does not drift out of spec (which most valves do).
Boogie basically tell you half of the story (the good half).
:twisted:
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Will i be ok putting them JJ power tubes in then without having it biased?
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Yes, if you tell Bob that it is for a Recto....he will give you ones with the proper bias for it!
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Swap out the rectifier tubes for JJ GZ-34s! It did wonders for my Dual Recto! Tightness, definition, and better but in a band mix! Amazing tubes!
Are these better than the mesa rectifier tubes then?
JJs are better than Sovteks no doubt... Mesa tubes are rebranded Sovteks, often their 12AX7s are the 12AX& WA or 12AX7WB and not even the 12AX7LPS which is much better than the other two but still a Sovtek....
I'd recommend the 6L6 that Groove Tubes makes for a 6L6, SED "Winged C"s for any other power amp tube when available, and Electro Harmonix when you cannot get a SED and for preamp tubes... the JJs were really never all that good and the latest offerings are pretty bad...
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Rang them up, said just pop them in and they will be fine, and they are, haven't really cranked it yet, but will do soon
Has anyone done the pulling 2 power valves out thing?
I only need my master at 9 oclock at practice and would like to crank the amp more, just wondering if it still sounded descent?
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Swap out the rectifier tubes for JJ GZ-34s! It did wonders for my Dual Recto! Tightness, definition, and better but in a band mix! Amazing tubes!
Eh....waste of money. If you want less sag just stick to diode rectification.
Alternatively, you can pay well over the odds for Mesa-branded valves that are typically Chinese-made and pop them in the amp, voila!!! (instant compromised tone)
Most larger venders can select the correct tubes using the same technique that Mesa does.
(Slagging Watford Valve for not telling the whole story then not telling the whole story yourself? The brass of some people. :roll: )
Anyway.....as for the cheap Chinese made cr@p that Heavier than Hell keeps spouting....
The Rectifier comes stock with Russian made EHX preamp tubes. They're good all around preamp tubes that are a little brighter than some and give an aggressive sound in high gain amps.
The power amp comes furnished with Russian made Sovteks. Not a bad tube, but not an excellent tube. Alot of amp companies ship using these amps because they're strong enough to survive life in a shipping container. I usually recommend people upgrade to Svetlana, SED, or JJ power tubes, depending on your taste.
I think I read somewhere that Mesa recently switched to China as their new 12AX7 supplier. It should be noted that 9th generation Chinese tubes are considered very good.
As to the thread starter......Rectifiers really don't sound good at low volumes. You don't get a real feeling for their true sound until you have them up over 10:00 (or preferable higher) on the master volume. Below that the tone will tend to be thin and buzzy.
Otherwise....that Rebel Yell pickup may not be the best choice. It has a strong bottom end and is kinda scooped.....not the best charicteristics to mix with the Recto as it usually results in an undefined "farty" sound when palm muting. I've found the Recto to work best with pickups that have alot of midrange and top end with very little bottom to them.
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Rang them up, said just pop them in and they will be fine, and they are, haven't really cranked it yet, but will do soon
Has anyone done the pulling 2 power valves out thing?
I only need my master at 9 oclock at practice and would like to crank the amp more, just wondering if it still sounded descent?
Pulling the two tubes out is fine. It sounds a little bit compressed, but it won't make a large difference to the overall volume......either way it's still a loud as f*ck amp.
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So a thicker sound?
That would be good :)
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Cheers screamingdaisy, just read your post from page 2
I have EH gold 12ax7's in the preamp now, they sound pretty good, better than what was in, which was, a harma, a mesa, and 3 no names on at all?!?!
At 10 oclock, literally, everything in the room shakes!! And it pretty much over powers my drummer as we practice in a small room
The settings ibanez for life gave me work perfectly with my rebel yell, it has a very tight, fast bottom end, not as big as my 5150 II, but i'm glad to get rid of that farting i mentioned
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Also, where in the uk can i get a thd hotplate (8 ohm) from?
Cheers
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Also, where in the uk can i get a thd hotplate (8 ohm) from?
Cheers
No idea (I'm in Canada), but I run a pair of them with mine (I have the Recto Pre/2:100 version). They're no maracle workers (ie, the won't make your 100w amp sound stellar at bedroom volumes), but they are great for knocking a bit off the volume, and you'll make alot of friends among soundmen.
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Yeah, it won't be for bedroom use, more band practice situations, so a good purchase?
mixed reviews on harmony central
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Good purchase.
From my experience of reading posts on the internet alot of people buy them thinking it'll still give them good tone at crushing levels of attenuation. When used conservatively (-4 or -8 db) it sounds fine. When used at -12db you start to loose some of the effects of slamming your speakers so hard. Below -16 you're on your own....sometimes it'll sound all right, others it'll sound really squashed. It depends in a large part on your amp settings as to how -16 and below sounds.
One thing to remember is that it's basically removing headroom......ie, how loud you can go before your power tubes break up. This is good when you're trying to get your lead channels into their "sweet spot", but it also removes headroom off your clean channel, so you may find it harder to get a really loud clean tone as you're basically taking a 100w amp and bringing it down to somewhere in the region of 40w* or less.
* That 40w figure is a guess....don't quote it as scientific fact.
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(Slagging Watford Valve for not telling the whole story then not telling the whole story yourself? The brass of some people. :roll: )
don't know what you're talking about, just trying to steer the thread starter in the right direction rather than have him waste money on overpriced rebranded valves (Mesa & Watford). If you weren't trying to be a smart arse you'd realise that.
My recommendations are based on amps I've serviced and repaired, what are yours based on? - what you've read on the internet? (sorry if I don't hold your opinion with much weight).
:twisted:
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My recommendations are based on amps I've serviced and repaired, what are yours based on? - what you've read on the internet? (sorry if I don't hold your opinion with much weight).
:twisted:
If you're so right, why are you on the defensive?
:lol:
How about you justify your stance by telling adammato why I'm wrong instead of tooting your own horn with some silly attempt to undermine my opinion.
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My recommendations are based on amps I've serviced and repaired, what are yours based on? - what you've read on the internet? (sorry if I don't hold your opinion with much weight).
:twisted:
If you're so right, why are you on the defensive?
:lol:
How about you justify your stance by telling adammato why I'm wrong instead of tooting your own horn with some silly attempt to undermine my opinion.
I think it's only natural that I'd defend myself when you chose to single out my post and take issue with it. 'Why' you have a problem with what I said is not apparent - maybe you should explain.
I hardly think my statements that both Mesa and Watford (among others) rebrand valves and charge way over the odds can be viewed as anything other than trying to steer the original poster in the right direction. I for one would rather pay less for exactly the same product, but thats just me - I don't need the brand names.
How about you tell me why you posted this...
(Slagging Watford Valve for not telling the whole story then not telling the whole story yourself? The brass of some people. Rolling Eyes )
What is the 'whole story' you refer to?
:?
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:?
Before we start pulling each others hair, let me say that the original comment was half meant, half toung-in-cheek.
Anyway....
ahem... Pot, Kettle, Black. Watford Valves don't physically manufacture any valves. Last time I checked they were just rebranding JJ valves under their 'Harma' name. The brass of some people :roll:
They are also the kings of 'spin' - what they say about biasing isn't strictly true. You don't need to rebias your Boogie IF you get the coorect graded valves from Boogie which are invariably Chinese-made pap. Oh, and this also assumes that the matching of the valves does not drift out of spec (which most valves do).
Boogie basically tell you half of the story (the good half).
You slag Watford and Boogie for telling half the story, yet you don't tell the other half.....that he can go to most larger tube venders and buy tubes that fall within Mesa's specs without the extra cost of rebranded tubes.
You also call call Mesa the 'kings of spin', when you're putting your own spin on things with the Chinese comment.
If you know your way round an amp it's easy to modify the bias supply to alter the bias voltage 'range'.
In 'fixed' bias amps such as Boogies you can install a variable resistor in order to dial in the bias for a specific set of valves.
Alternatively, you can pay well over the odds for Mesa-branded valves that are typically Chinese-made and pop them in the amp, voila!!! (instant compromised tone)
So in order to save a few $$$ on tube swaps someone is going to pay a tech to modify their amp, and then pay a tech to bias it every time they re-tube? How, excactly, is this supposed to save someone money? Usually I recommend http://www.thetubestore.com, but that's in North America and I don't know who to recommend in the UK/Europe.
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You slag Watford and Boogie for telling half the story, yet you don't tell the other half.....that he can go to most larger tube venders and buy tubes that fall within Mesa's specs without the extra cost of rebranded tubes.
I slag off (as you put it) Mesa & Watford because they rebrand valves and put a hefty markup on them. These valves can be bought elsewhere for much cheaper.
As for the Mesa-spec thing, see below.
You also call call Mesa the 'kings of spin', when you're putting your own spin on things with the Chinese comment.
I don't think I'm spinning anything by saying that Chinese-made valves are largely cr@p - I think any other tech you talk to would agree. Chinese-made valves are responsible for most of the repair jobs I get on amps - the last Single Recto I had in required major rewiring due to burnt-out components around the output valve bases and arced valve sockets.
So in order to save a few $$$ on tube swaps someone is going to pay a tech to modify their amp, and then pay a tech to bias it every time they re-tube? How, excactly, is this supposed to save someone money? Usually I recommend http://www.thetubestore.com, but that's in North America and I don't know who to recommend in the UK/Europe.
Firstly, each amp is different (even if you take a dozen of the same amp), plugging in these magically pre-selected valves will 'work' but if you want the amp to sound the best it can, you need to tune the bias in.
Secondly, it is very common for both the matching and bias point to shift when the (output) valves are new. This requires re-setting the bias - if you use these pre-selected sets then they may be running too cold (tone will suffer) or too hot (may burn the valves out and damage other components when they fail).
I'm sure you'd rather get your amp biased correctly so it'll run reliably rather than take your chances. Anyway, a bias job should only cost you £10 or £15 tops and a tech will generally give the amp a once over while setting the bias.
Does that explain where I'm coming from?
:twisted:
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Does that explain where I'm coming from?
:twisted:
Yes. Though I dissagree with you on some points we're all entitled to our opinons....particularily since most of what I dissagree with can be summed up as "personal choice".
:twisted: :twisted:
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Sorry to get you guys in an arguement!
I'm trying to find a music store that sells the thd hotplate so i can try before i buy, it's mostly to use so i can record an album with next month with the best tone!
Damn uk companies are cr@p!!!!
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Yes. Though I dissagree with you on some points we're all entitled to our opinons....particularily since most of what I dissagree with can be summed up as "personal choice".
:twisted: :twisted:
(unsurprisingly) I disagree with you on that point (personal choice) but I think I've said all I want to say on the subject.
as for a hotplate, I would advise you to find a store where you can try one out - you may find it counterproductive to the tone you want with an amp as gainy as the DR (imo).
:twisted:
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you may find it counterproductive to the tone you want with an amp as gainy as the DR (imo).
:twisted:
why's this?
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In my experience, amps with alot of gain don't benefit from attenuators since most of the tone comes from the preamp. Amps such as the DR sound better as you turn them up for sure but this is more of a cumalative effect of the 'whole' amp being driven harder (the speakers too).
Give it a try in a shop and if it works for you then great. Just trying to give some advice based on what I've found when trying this stuff myself. I'm personally not a fan of the attenuators I've tried so my view may be a little biased.
To counter the effects of an amp sounding weak at lower volumes you're much better off putting an EQ in the effects loop and tweaking your tone from there.
:twisted:
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Thanks :)
I'll try and find somewhere that sells them within 100miles, worth the drive if it means buying something for £200 that i won't like/use
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To counter the effects of an amp sounding weak at lower volumes you're much better off putting an EQ in the effects loop and tweaking your tone from there.
:twisted:
+1.
With my Recto I used an attenuator in order to get it into it's "sweet spot" volume wise. I tried the EQ in the loop, but it wasn't working for me.
On the other hand I tried the same attenuator with a Mesa MkIII and I didn't like it. I thought the graphic EQ did a much better job of making it sound right at lower volumes.
In the end it comes down to using whatever works for you.
If it's just for band practice, consider throwing a blanket over your cab. It'll eat up alot of highs, but it's cheap and it'll save everyone's ears.
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Sorry to sound stupid
but....
why will a eq pedal in the effects loop help it at sound better at lower volume?
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Ermm,
I'm chipping in because I have found much of the content interesting.
BUT things are getting a little heated.
I think what everybody is trying to say is buy decent quality valves.
For those with technical ability (not technical knowledge as thats completely different) or a local reliable (& affordable) amp tech that can be acheived wothout really paying a price premium on the valves.
However for others it's more cost effective (or comforting) to buy the branded versions which are closest to the original values used when it left the factory.
Neither method is wrong, but one solution may be better for an individual than the other.
I'm chipping in because of the volume issue, at home I cannot even get to play my Blues Jr (15 Watt) cooking because of volume issues (plus my sh1te playing contributes to this too).
Rob...
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Sorry to sound stupid
but....
why will a eq pedal in the effects loop help it at sound better at lower volume?
Ask yourself what your tone loses at low volume? - bass (mostly). Get an MXR 10-band EQ and tweak your tone to taste.
In the end it comes down to using whatever works for you.
Exactly, couldn't agree more.
You can ask us all on this board for advice and most likely get a dozen different/conflicting answers. The only way to tell for sure is to try it yourself. I personally found my (metal) tone inside a solid state Randall head so what do I know (heh) :lol:
:twisted:
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Spoke to Mark at Hotrox, might just save up for a THD hotplate, it seem like it'll be worth it! Unless i can steal one from the BBC.....