Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Crazy_Joe on August 20, 2006, 03:56:26 PM
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What is the thrash/speed pickup??
I always thought it was the Nailbomb, but recently i saw someone say Miracle Man was the thrash pickup.
I'm getting an Ibanez RG1570 (yes i am actually buying a guitar this week!! :o ) and i need a thrash sound.
I'm thinking of a combo of: Nailbomb - Irish Tour - Cold Sweat
Maybe a Trilogy in the middle, maybe a Miracle Man in bridge, but Cold Sweat is definate.
Next Issue
I will buy a 50 (or higher) watt combo amp shortly after this purchase, what will give me a good thrash tone? I know i will have to probably use a pedal of some sort, i was looking at a Marshall AVT series, maybe buying the Zakk overdrive and figured that would be a good thrashy tone, but thats definatley not confirmed.
I've heard people rubbishing the AVT series, though some people say they were surprised by them and they arn't half bad.
Other options is the dredded Line 6 Spider II :o A lot of people don't like those but they have so many amp modelley thingys that i'm bound to find one or two good tones.
I have a Line 6 Uber metal pedal already, so that might serve me well if i get a Marshall.
Discuss!
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i have the AVT and it's k, but it still is essentially solid state
the AVT i found was fine as a basic bedroom practise amp, but as soon as you try and crank it, it starts gettin buzzy when distorted, which is why i'm going to sell mine as soon as i get enough money for my plexi head
as for the pickups, wouldn't know, don't play thrash, sorry
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What if i'm using a noise gate with it, surely then it wouldn't be buzzy.
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possibly, but it would depend on where you put it, as its primarily to do with the number of effects built into the circuit ... hence me wanting a plexi, very basic amp = very nice tone
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With my nailbomb I can happily get most tones from hard rock through to speed, thrash and death metal. It depends a lot on your amp/pedals and tone settings. A miracle man would obviously be good as well, but with more bass and lower mid than the nailbombs upper mid crunch. I'd probably say a nailbomb for 80s tones (but better!) and miracle man for 90s tones.
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The ZW overdrive is pretty useless for thrash. It's a very traditionally voiced overdrive pedal, which Zakk uses to give a clean gain boost for solos. You will need a DISTORTION pedal, such as a metal master, metal zone, or the Krank Distortus Maximus.
As for pickups, anything from the Cold Sweat up should be capable of producing useable thrash tones.
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Depends upon what you call Thrash Metal
Back in 1985 when the genre emerged bands such as Anthrax and Metallica etc were called Thrash.
Two decades on opinions on that subject may have moved on somewhat
Really the whole picture is important - the guitar , the pickups, pedals and amp and what you consider to be a desirable tone for "thrash"
Chances are you will go for a Miracle Man, Nailbomb or Warpig
Maybe a bit cliched, but you might say:
For mid-late 80s Speed/Thrash go for a MM
For 1990s stuff maybe the NB as it has more "beefiness" and the WP if you like a more "Doomy" kind of sound
But it is all personal taste.......
If money were no issue......get one of each and experiment
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Now, I'm in no way a metal guitarist but I've never heard anyone get what I would call a convincing metal tone out of a purely clean amp and then use a pedal for distortion. Always sound too fake or have no balls to it etc.
In my opinion it's always better to get an amp that will provide the gain/basic tone you want (Dual Rec, Peavey 5150, Peavey xxx just as examples) and then accenuate it with an OD pedal or a boost.
I may be talking out of my arse but that's how I'd do it :)
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To get a decent high gain sound out of pedals I've found its best to layer two. For my high gain sounds I use a Keeley Rat infront of a Behringer TO800 to get some huge tones :D Then again I have my amp set so its breaking up so its not going into a completely clean amp.
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I find thrash (I assume we're talking rhythm) works best with bright medium output pickups. Bottom heavy pickups tend to tub out when you're pounding on the low E and extremely high output pickups then to compress too much.
Alot of your pickup selection has to do with your amp choice. Obviously, a Dual Rectifier is going to give you a different sound than a JCM800.....and you may wish to choose your pickup accordingly.
FWIW.....you'll find that alot of thrash players don't use passives for a reason.
What if i'm using a noise gate with it, surely then it wouldn't be buzzy.
Solid states sound good at lower volumes, but get worse as you turn them up. That said, they're capable of some very tight rhythm tones (see, Pantera) provided you like they sound they have.
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I'm not looking to spend that much on this amp, but by the sounds of it i'm going to need a good one if i want a good tone when cranked up.
I play a shite load of Metallica. Also Ozzy, Mercyful Fate, Slayer, Annihilator etc. stuff, i'm a very 80's player, though i do play a bit on the heavier/modern side of things, e.g. Trivium (purely for the guitars riffs), Kalmah, Ensiferum etc.
I was thinking Nailbomb because i'm getting an Ibanez, and a lot of people are happy with their Nailbomb loaded Ibanez axes.
However the band and me are starting to play our own material. the tone of both guitar's are indecisive since i have different equiptment to the other guitarist and we don't know what kind of tone we are going for yet. I'd say our songs so far are trying to be thrash/speed metal, though i'm not sure if it is exactly that yet, but we don't want to sound metalcore or something shitety like that.
A few months ago i wanted an Ashdown Fallen Angel 40 watt combo, but it was very pricey compared to what i wanted to spend. But maybe it looks like i will need an amp like that to get the gain i'm looking for.
I'm a bit confused as to what people are saying here, are you saying i need a tube amp, because it sounds as if all solid state amps are getting bashed here because they don't sound good cranked up, or do i just need a good solid state which sounds good loud, if there is such a thing :P
Also at the moment i play on the clean channel of my Marshall MG, and then use the Uber Metal pedal for the whole distortion.
Is this good or bad, and would it be better to go on the overdrive channel instead.
Sorry for the essay!
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i'm going to sell mine as soon as i get enough money for my plexi head
You're getting a Plexi? Sweet as - let me know if you want any advice buying it or working on it when you come round to buying it.
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i'd say get a valve amp if you can, something along the lines of a second hand JCM800 or a Laney if you can find one on ebay or summat
also, i've heard that the Nailbomb is very versatile, and would probably handle anything you throw at it, so that just means that you would need the right amp to get 'your' sound
best thing to do is to find a good guitar shop with a lot of amps in and try them out, then find a cheaper second hand version
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i'm going to sell mine as soon as i get enough money for my plexi head
You're getting a Plexi? Sweet as - let me know if you want any advice buying it or working on it when you come round to buying it.
will do, i'm not goin as big as your SLP tho, i'm gettin the 50 watt little brother :D
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There is a used Laney TF400 in my local guitar shop, don't know if that is tube though. Anyone know?
Also the kind of tone i want is in this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bj5CKxPuy8A&search=You%20Can%27t%20Bring%20Me%20Down
Also does anyone know what chorus effect the guitarist uses, or how to get that kind of chorus sound, it is fecking awesome!
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the TF is the Tube Fusion series, which i believe is the Laney version of the AVT, ie valve preamp and solid state power amp
correct me if i'm wrong....
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how much money do you have for the amp, and how loud can you crank said amp?
also, that BKP set is a lot. I'm not trying to lose BKP sales, but if you're buying a sub-standard amp (as the AVT is, IMO, though you could maybe get something a lot better for a similar price, depending on which avt you're looking at) so you can afford the pickups, you might want to put all your money into the amp, and get the BKP's at a later date- they'll sound so much better with a good amp, into the bargain.
Just my two cents.
:drink:
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I can save money for a better amp, though i won't be getting it straight away. And i was planning on getting the pups on a later date anyway.
But i wasn't planning on spending much on the amp, my limit at the moment is £450 looking at these tube amps.
My choices at the moment are:
Ashdown FA40 Fallen Angel (40 watt combo) - £449
Marshall DSL 401 (40 watt combo)- £429
There is also the Peavey Valve King 112 (50 watt combo) - £279
But i remeber last time i suggested the Peavey and people said it sucked.
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Check out the B-52 AT-212 100 watt all tube combo. I got it for just under $800USD, might be a bit higher than what you are looking for, but you can get so many good sounds from this.
You can chose from 3 rectifier settings and change them by turning a knob. Class A, AB, and solid state!
Then there is the low resonance control. Turn it down and it sounds more crunchy and less "metal," more like a Marshall crunch. When you turn it up all the way it makes it sound huge.
I believe there is a cheaper SA-212 60 watt combo but I've always thought they sound more loose and softer. I can make my AT-212 sound like the SA but I can't get the SA to sound like the AT-212. 100 watts is hardly louder than 60 watts, btw.
B-52's balls dwarfs those Ashdown's, completely.
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^ ^ just to add to your list, the randall rg50tc is also worth a look, it's a similar price.
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I looked at Randalls before, though the only way i can get them is from the internet, and i don't know if that will be safe, not the money i mean the amp being bumped around during delivery.
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amps are pretty sturdy, they can take a few bumps
i've ordered all my guitars off the stinkernet, all three turned up in perfect condition
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By the way who are B-52? I have never heard of them!
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it's probably safe enough to order it off the net, but it's not really wise to order one if you can't try it...
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arent they the one's that sang love shack???
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LOL!
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By the way who are B-52? I have never heard of them!
They used to make PA systems, and their mid-range PA systems got a lot of sales because they apparently had great quality for a affordable price. They then made a solid state guitar amp and it was released at a pretty bad time, when tube amps were "coming back." They released their first all tube head, the AT-100 and they keep progressing nicely. Their cabs are really nice too, if you read the reviews on harmony central you'll see that people are using them with their $3000 Rectifiers and shite.
They are mainly American, you can get them online or in some shops. I don't know if they are sold in UK shops yet, but its worth looking for them.
EDIT: And yes, there is a band called The B-52's or something. Lol.
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Yeah i don't think i'm going to be finding many of those amps here in the UK.
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I play a shitee load of Metallica. Also Ozzy, Mercyful Fate, Slayer, Annihilator etc. stuff, i'm a very 80's player
The Miracle Man will do all of that stuff. I've not tried the Nailbomb but it's apparently brighter with less bass compared to the Miracle Man.
For comparison sake, most of the players in the bands you mentioned use EMG81s - the MM is supposed to be the closest in the BKP range to that sound (except passive).
I'm a bit confused as to what people are saying here, are you saying i need a tube amp, because it sounds as if all solid state amps are getting bashed here because they don't sound good cranked up, or do i just need a good solid state which sounds good loud, if there is such a thing :P
I actually like solid state amps for metal, they sound good at all volumes (imo). I've used both the AVT50 and the SpiderII, they are both worthy contenders for thrash tones.
If you can stretch your budget, try to find a used Randall head on ebay - they do the business, trust me.
I have a sound clip in the players section of my Miracle Man-loaded Les Paul through the Randall Titan amp.
:twisted:
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To be honest i don't really need a head, though i was looking at one in my local store, the RH200G2 i think it was, it was 300 odd quid. But as i said it's a bit too powerful for me at the moment.
At the moment the Ashdown Fallen Angel is the top contender.
Has anyone seen this new pedal:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MXR-Grind-and-Clear-ZW44-Wylde-Overdrive?sku=151029
I don't really see the difference between that and the normal Zakk overdrive, maybe it's just a newer version.
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I play a shitee load of Metallica. Also Ozzy, Mercyful Fate, Slayer, Annihilator etc. stuff, i'm a very 80's player, though i do play a bit on the heavier/modern side of things, e.g. Trivium (purely for the guitars riffs), Kalmah, Ensiferum etc.
Some of the Laney heads will get you there and I believe they're pretty cheap on your side of the pond. I feel they're built better than the stuff Marshall's putting out these days and I feel they sound better than the JCM2000 series stuff.
Has anyone seen this new pedal:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MXR-Grind-and-Clear-ZW44-Wylde-Overdrive?sku=151029
I don't really see the difference between that and the normal Zakk overdrive, maybe it's just a newer version.
It looks like they ground it to match the wah pedal.
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To be honest i don't really need a head, though i was looking at one in my local store, the RH200G2 i think it was, it was 300 odd quid. But as i said it's a bit too powerful for me at the moment.
At the moment the Ashdown Fallen Angel is the top contender.
Has anyone seen this new pedal:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MXR-Grind-and-Clear-ZW44-Wylde-Overdrive?sku=151029
I don't really see the difference between that and the normal Zakk overdrive, maybe it's just a newer version.
If I had to guess I'd say it's just new cosmetics.
:twisted:
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I play a shitee load of Metallica. Also Ozzy, Mercyful Fate, Slayer, Annihilator etc. stuff, i'm a very 80's player, though i do play a bit on the heavier/modern side of things, e.g. Trivium (purely for the guitars riffs), Kalmah, Ensiferum etc.
Some of the Laney heads will get you there and I believe they're pretty cheap on your side of the pond. I feel they're built better than the stuff Marshall's putting out these days and I feel they sound better than the JCM2000 series stuff.
Has anyone seen this new pedal:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MXR-Grind-and-Clear-ZW44-Wylde-Overdrive?sku=151029
I don't really see the difference between that and the normal Zakk overdrive, maybe it's just a newer version.
It looks like they ground it to match the wah pedal.
As much as i'd like a head, i don't need one right now, i only need to overpower/match 50 watts of solid state combo at the moment.
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As much as i'd like a head, i don't need one right now, i only need to overpower/match 50 watts of solid state combo at the moment.
Cool.
You'll want to sort out what kind of tone you're after. If you're only looking at competing with a 50w solid state I'd check out any of the 100w or 150w solid states that're out there. Unlike tube, when it comes to solid state it's always best to buy the amp with the most headroom (wattage) that has the sound you're after.
If you're looking at tube, 30w should do you fine.
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Well i figured the Fallen Angel FA40 would do me fine, since i think it has a lot of gain being an amp that is designed for metal.
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Hmm, at £450 you're sort of on the verge of (what could be described as) good amp territory...
My theory on amps is that you should buy one that will last you a good few years...I started off looking at the 100 watt Vox Valvetronix amp, thinking that it would be sound for gigging with for now and that I can upgrade in a year or so.
However, then I decided that if I buy an amp now, and then in a year buy a new one, I wouldn't be able to afford anything near as good as if I waited a few months and saved up my money, and bought a better amp now.
I would recommend you save for an Engl Screamer combo, as it should manage all the music you want to get fairly easily without pedals - the heaviest I've really gone on mine is Megadeth, but that's only on channel 3 (of 4) so there's plenty of scope to go heavier if needed...
You can find them (I believe) for about £650ish, even less than that if you look used - mine cost me £500 :drink:
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Yeah, in my local there is a used Engl Screamer 50 combo, £599 is a bit more than i would like to spend though, and it will take some time to get that kind of money.
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you would probs be able to get that down £50 or so
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Well anyways, when i have my amp eventually (which might be quite a few months), which looks like the Ashdown because i'm digging that. What will be the best choice of pickups for thrash/speed metal for the kind of 80's Metallica/Annihilator kinda tone?
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Yeah, in my local there is a used Engl Screamer 50 combo, £599 is a bit more than i would like to spend though, and it will take some time to get that kind of money.
The way to look at it is this: Try it out, and then go over and try the fallen angel or whatever else you like...Then, after playing them both you can decide whether, although it's more expensive, you'd rather save for the Engl because it's worth it - or if you'd prefer to get the Ashdown :drink:
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arent the painkillers supposed to be for thrash metal???
or am i dreaming things again?
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have you actually tried the ashdown? you shouldn't really have a favourite until you've tried everything in your price range...
I wasn't overly impressed with the ashdown for metal, to be honest.
And £600 sounds a lot for a second-hand screamer (unless that includes the 6-button footswitch, which I doubt)- you can get them new for £700 if you shop around (and the newer ones have better, vintage 30, speakers, if the specs are to be believed).
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I'm going to try the Ashdown when i get the guitar this week.
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^ sure. just make sure to try lots of other amps too- if you only try the ashdown, unless it really sucks, odds are you'll like it...
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check out the keeley modded Boss MT2 metal zone pedal, and the Keeley modded Boss DS1 Ultra pedals for amazing thrash tones, it's more about effects and amps in my opinion to get that kind of in your face agressive thrash sound. The Keeley/Boss MT2 twilight zone pedal is extremley versitile.
As for amps, try to look for something much lower than 50 watts, you just dont need 50 watts no-one does, cos you can never have them on full so what's the point? you want an amp that can be cranked without permanantley deafaning you, more like a 20 watt valve, or less, this way it actually uses the power valves and it'll sound much warmer overall. Instead of harsh and grainy
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What about the Peavey Valve King? I say that because it's the cheapest option :D
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As for amps, try to look for something much lower than 50 watts, you just dont need 50 watts no-one does, cos you can never have them on full so what's the point? you want an amp that can be cranked without permanantley deafaning you, more like a 20 watt valve, or less, this way it actually uses the power valves and it'll sound much warmer overall. Instead of harsh and grainy
I disagree - I have a 50 watt Engl Screamer, and I can crank it in my house without deafening anyone...It's not necessary for just bedroom playing, but if you're going to gig with it then you can crank it :drink:
Also, are you some Keeley advertiser or something? You seem to recommend them everywhere :lol:
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check out the keeley modded Boss MT2 metal zone pedal, and the Keeley modded Boss DS1 Ultra pedals for amazing thrash tones, it's more about effects and amps in my opinion to get that kind of in your face agressive thrash sound. The Keeley/Boss MT2 twilight zone pedal is extremley versitile.
As for amps, try to look for something much lower than 50 watts, you just dont need 50 watts no-one does, cos you can never have them on full so what's the point? you want an amp that can be cranked without permanantley deafaning you, more like a 20 watt valve, or less, this way it actually uses the power valves and it'll sound much warmer overall. Instead of harsh and grainy
while I agree that you can crank a 20 watter much more easily, I can crank my 100 watt halfstack no bother, and my neighbours are about 20 yards away (if even that)- though I don't share any walls. But assuming you don't, you can crank a high wattage amp fine, as long as you have decent earplugs, and don't want to play it cranked at something daft like 2 in the morning. also, there are very few lower wattage amps aimed at metal tones- most of the 20 and 30 watters are aimed at more vintage tones.
joe: the valveking is a budget amp. it's decent to good for the price, but it won't compete at all with something like a screamer.
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there are very few lower wattage amps aimed at metal tones- most of the 20 and 30 watters are aimed at more vintage tones.
That's true, and I'd like to see Mr Keeley mod a pedal to make an AC30 become a metal amp :drink: :lol:
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Hmm pedals.. pedals for thrash eh?
I've used Boss DS1, MT2, Mesa VTwin pre, Marshall Guv'nor and a zoom 505 multi fx, all into the clean channel on me Marshall VS65r and managed to get a good late 80s thrash sound. The MT2 I love, as I've gotten Tool, Sepultura and rockabilly sounds out of it (I kid you not) and its not Keeley modded.
Keeley are great, but they tend to vintage/smooth the harmonics on those pedals. Its dead nice on the overdrives, the boosts and the blues pedals, but tbh I dont like what they've done to the distortion fx. :?
Its a contentious subject and everyone has a different view. :lol:
With reference to the Valve King, I've seen a coupla bands on the Guitarist forums who've gotten hold of them and absolutely loved them. One is a death metal kind of band. Now the one thing I will say about this amp is that demand is VERY high and it can be quite hard to get your hands on one to try out. Some are also questioning the fact that its made in china, though I dont know why, as everything is made there thesedays. :lol:
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The thing is as long as i can get a decent tone out of it, then that is good enough for me, i don't think i'm half as critical as some of the people on this forum, anything will be better than my MG series amp.
I went to the guitar store today, tried an AVT and i got a great vintage thrasy tone out of it, i really don't see why it is so bad.
Saying that i didn't crank it very high, but still it was good sounding to me!
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yeh, the AVT is good at bedroom levels, but i found it just got worse as the master volume got higher
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Well, when I was trying amps and I played the AVT I thought it sounded OK...But then at LGS when I tried my Engl and nothing else sounded the same after that - so I went back and bought the Engl :lol:
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If i can find an Engl cheaper than bloody Machinehead's major rip off of £599 i would probably buy that.
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keep an eye out on eBay
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Yeah. i was about to look there now, even though i'm not buying an amp yet!
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I can save money for a better amp, though i won't be getting it straight away. And i was planning on getting the pups on a later date anyway.
But i wasn't planning on spending much on the amp, my limit at the moment is £450 looking at these tube amps.
My choices at the moment are:
Ashdown FA40 Fallen Angel (40 watt combo) - £449
Marshall DSL 401 (40 watt combo)- £429
There is also the Peavey Valve King 112 (50 watt combo) - £279
But i remeber last time i suggested the Peavey and people said it sucked.
Since you're in the UK, you can get some cracking deals on Tube laney heads as Laney is a british company.
GAK do a gh50 for about £350. You can get a second hand marshall 1936 (2x12) cab for about £100 and you're set!