Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: crispsandwich on August 20, 2006, 10:04:07 PM
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Just listened to the studio version of Detonation. When I first heard it live I thought it was cr@p but after hearing this version I'm hooked. The guitar playing is unreal. Loads of sweeps and really technical stuff. They really sound like old Metallica in places. I can't wait for this new album.
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I hate Trivium's first and second album, but the guitar work in them is quality.
But $%&# yes the first bit in Detonation is godlike, sounds so 80's thrash, i thought holy cr@p Trivium have turned good!
But then it went all emo for the second half of the song.
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It would be good if they could play live anywhere near how the play on record.
The new song is alright, but half way through it just feels like they have gone into a completely new song. But yeah, heavily Metallica influence. He sings alot like him now.
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wow, i just checked it out on youtube. at least there's no damn cookie monster vocals/screaming any more, which was promised. Sounds very like metallica though... almost a step back.
And you know what I always say about new bands which just copy old bands... if i want to listen to metallica (or whoever), I'll just listen to metallica.
EDIT: oh, and their vibrato is cr@ppy. On the ascendency album (which I have), the leads just sound like a cr@ppier rip-off of friedman.
Oh, and I've just got to a better bit of the song now. That's better. :D
the first half is way too derivative, though.
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There is an even newer song now called Anthem (We Are the Fire)
It sounds even more 80's, it's actually so 80's! I don't think you could get mote 80's!
It's got a kind of Motley Crue kind of chorus imo, also the solo reminds me of a Dragonforce solo for some reason!
It's avaliable as Windows Media Player Stream from Roadrunner's site:
http://www.roadrunnerrecords.co.uk/music/
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^ nice. \m/
I still prefer the stuff from the actual 80's... but metalcore (or whatever you want to call it) IS a step in the right direction, IMO. It's a lot better than nu-metal, that's for sure.
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I really don't think Trivium's new stuff is really that metalcore, i think it's more just metal.
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live i also thought 'what the hell is that shitee??'
It sounds good i spose, but soloing is like 'hey dude, i just learned to sweep pick, listen to me shreeeeeeeeeed!'
Not bad though, sounds like 2 songs mashed together...
I like Trivium but live i've not heard them play anywhere NEAR what the CD's are like, i thik (you can hear it on this track) they use too many overdubs and the such... if you watch the 'RoadRunner United' video you can see them ripping the 'In The Fire' solos in the studio in one take, which are killer.. they can definitely PLAY some 8)
I've heard that my fav solos by them on Ascendancy were played by their producer on the recording.. no wonder they always play them different live ;)
I will be buying the new album upon relase! Hope they dont get boring like SHadows Fall did..
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I cant find a good version of this song anywhere.. not exactly expecting much though as I hate Triviums "old" stuff.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNLDLyeepVs
this kind of stuff of theirs sucks SO bad, it blows.
comparing their soloing to dragonfarce, does nothing for their credibility either.
it's literaly like he learned how to sweep and now it has to be everywhere.
if i want 80's to the max, i'll listen to paul gilbert.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNLDLyeepVs
this kind of stuff of theirs sucks SO bad, it blows.
comparing their soloing to dragonfarce, does nothing for their credibility either.
it's literaly like he learned how to sweep and now it has to be everywhere.
if i want 80's to the max, i'll listen to paul gilbert.
hahahaha I love those videos :lol: so funny
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It just goes to show that they could be literally singing about anything - I enjoyed that more than any Trivium song too.
:twisted:
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It is true that Trivium sucked huge amounts of donkey c--k before, but the next album might be listenable i think.
Obviously i'm not going to buy it, i'll leave that to my lame nightwish loving brother.
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Personally i've never liked Triviam one bit, a few friends tried to get my into Triviam by playing me they're records, i had to point out the ammount of guitar riffs that have almost been directly lifted of other bands albums (Arch Enemy, Megadeth and yes even Maiden).
I don't question they're abilty as musicians, they're good, but appart from keep heavy(ish) music in the lime light they're not really doing anything new or origional for the music industry.
Take the song "detonation" the first 80's riff sounds exactly like something off an old Destruction/ Kreator album, the secod half is just another emo kid tear jerker... *yawn* and the solos although fast are dull, sounds like there just there to go "look at me i can play fast..."
(Last triviam bashing paragraph)
"if you watch the 'RoadRunner United' video you can see them ripping the 'In The Fire' solos in the studio in one take, which are killer.. they can definitely PLAY"
Yeah those solos are cool, i do love that album but... you only see what roadrunner and the bands want you to see, how do you know that they hadn't been sitting there working on it for hours befor hand? it's not like it was a constant live documentary of the process.
As for sweaping, it really annoys me at the moment, because no one does anything origional with it, it's jsut seen as an easy way to play alot of notes really really fast... no one sees any sort of potential in it past this point, of course i'm not saying everyone is like this, but 90% of the time when you hear someone sweap its the same old up, down, up, down, same patterns, same tone, same everything (like the triviam song) but ah well.
Its sort of like the Buckethead and friends lyrics for "Funbus"
Why has the humor died in music today
everyone is so serious that I'm afraid to say
tough guy stance is lost on me
violence is neccessary it proves you are free
happy being sold mediocrity
failure only happens from originality
Its more important to be tough than to have any fun
like an insecure human who fears everyone
music is art that we're afraid to enjoy
like a child who's outgrown his favorite toy
afraid to acknowledge what makes us feel good
afraid to leave the mold , if we only could
a group is always easier to follow
then finding something new to swallow
so give us the art thats boring and plain
its easier to be different when its the same
fear something new till we're told its ok
no time to explore no time to play
the craving for new is something to shun
thinking is bad it spoils the fun
discover youself with mass appeal
pretend your choices make you real
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As for sweaping, it really annoys me at the moment, because no one does anything origional with it, it's jsut seen as an easy way to play alot of notes really really fast... no one sees any sort of potential in it past this point, of course i'm not saying everyone is like this, but 90% of the time when you hear someone sweap its the same old up, down, up, down, same patterns, same tone, same everything (like the triviam song) but ah well.
I agree...I never learned to sweep, as I'm not hugely interested in being able to play that fast - but I always thought it would be cool if people tried sweep picking across only 3 strings. Could extend the variety of patterns used somewhat methinks :drink:
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Yeah those solos are cool, i do love that album but... you only see what roadrunner and the bands want you to see, how do you know that they hadn't been sitting there working on it for hours befor hand? it's not like it was a constant live documentary of the process.
True, although they did show numerous takes of the Annihilator guy (jeff waters?) completely messing his solo up ;)
I can sorta slowly sweep but ONLY over 3 strings...i think it has its place but if theres so many people doing it that it needs to be different (ie not have that 'stock' neo classical sound to it) to be impressive, not just 'woooo sweepy time looky looky'
Bands like DragonForce are pretty creative solo wise, Trivium just seem to be stuck in 'fan boy' mode, which is fine and i wish them well, but until they break out of that mode they are going to release inoffensive generally solid metal albums that you can take or leave and not miss out.. theres nothing (yet) that makes me go 'holy shite have you heard that new Trivium track, the solo is KILLER' or 'wow, now THATS a riff..where my guitar?!'.
Am looking forward to the new Trivium album though...i think they have the potential to be as good as the press hypes them up to be
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Bands like DragonForce are pretty creative solo wise
umm...
no, no... no, no and no.
they only got two solos in their repperoaire.. a sweep picking solo and a tapping solo. then they repeat that one over and over and over and over. guys like paul gilbert, jeff loomis, marty friedman ... ... are creative solo vise, not those hacks from dragonsuck.
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Bands like DragonForce are pretty creative solo wise
umm...
no, no... no, no and no.
they only got two solos in their repperoaire.. a sweep picking solo and a tapping solo. then they repeat that one over and over and over and over. guys like paul gilbert, jeff loomis, marty friedman ... ... are creative solo vise, not those hacks from dragonsuck.
I generally don't use the word 'hate' lightly, but that Dragonforce band really get to me. Their playing (while very accomplished) seems more of a 'look how clever I am' statement rather than a musical one within the context of a song.
Listen to a good Slayer solo - it goes somewhere and takes the song to a new level. The same can be said with Dime, Zakk Wylde, Dave Mustaine, even Kirk Hammet back in the day.
:twisted:
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no other band sounds like Dragonforce...making crazy guitar sounds and hyper speed harmony solos and going mad with computer game noises and keyboards etc is pretty different and a little creative in my book.
I dont see how dragonforce's solos dont do anything for the song? Thats what the SONG is about! Take them out or replace them with a generic shred solo and theyd just be another (albeit fast) power metal band with nothing original to say or try.
I'm a fan of all the players\bands you guys mention and DF is right up there with them in my opinion... although they seem to have more of a love\hate thing going on with fans.. its either 'wow that was different.. cool' or 'eeek what a mess, turn it off!' ;)
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I don't listen to Dragonforce for the guitar work - I listen to it for the whole effect...The drums and vocals are the important part :drink:
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You have to admit though, they are VERY repeatative. I couldn't tell one song from another
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As much as i like Slayer, which i do, i think their solos are absolute cr@p.
The Annihilator guitarist Jeff Waters is an amazing guitarist, and i don't think anyone can do that solo in one or two takes, so that was a pretty unfair comment.
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once you get into them, you can tell one 'meedily meeeeeeeeedily meedily wwwwwwwwwwiiiiiiizoooooooooooo meedle meedle meedle meedle meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelilolol' bit from another :lol:
Jeff Waters seems like a nice guy 'i cant play like this if i think about it' but after he called himself the fastest, tightest playing guitarist in the world bar none (hes not even CLOSE) i never really bothered getting into his bands stuff..
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You have to admit though, they are VERY repeatative. I couldn't tell one song from another
Oh I know, I've never got past the 3rd track on the album as it's too much to take in one go - but it's good while it lasts :drink:
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I agree...I never learned to sweep, as I'm not hugely interested in being able to play that fast - but I always thought it would be cool if people tried sweep picking across only 3 strings. Could extend the variety of patterns used somewhat methinks :drink:
i thought lots of guys sweeped across 3 strings... i know friedman (ex-megadeth) does it a lot (definitely over 4 strings), he's basically what beaulieu wants to be (as I've said before). he manages to be both incredibly melodic, dynamic, and shreddy at the same time- and at the same time incorporating excellent touches like eastern scales, and koto bends to put in subtle inflections to the notes he plays.
Again, I must reiterate that I quite like trivium- but I'm not so naive to believe (or even think!) that they're the best metal band there is, or the best soloists. They're far from it. They may be a step in the right direction, but in a perfect world there would be other bands that were several more steps in the right direction...
EDIT: I quite like dragonforce too. Again, I don't think li and totman are as good as everyone says they are either (much like the trivium guys). while they are good, I kind of rate them as "good" rather than amazing- the guys who say they're amazing tend not to be familiar with the guys I'd qualify as "amazing"- mainly the shredders from the 80's- guys like vai, satch, gilbert, EVH, Lynch, malmsteen, timmons, friedman, becker, nuno etc.
plus, I tend to judge a player by their feel first- how good their vibrato is, how musical they make each note sound, BEFORE i rate their chops. Anyone can practice enough to get good chops- you do need talent, I agree, and if you have talent it'll take less practice to get that good, but if you gave a total duffer 20 years of 10 hours per day practice, I'd think they could shred pretty well at the end of that- shredding is mainly mechanical skill. But you can't practice "musicality" as well- I think EVH said once that he heard two pianists play the same piece of music, and one was technically perfect, but it lacked a little something- it was too mechanical. While with the other guy, every note was beautiful, the music just flowed through his fingers.
So I guess that's what I'm not so fond of with a lot the newer shredders in popular bands like trivium. There's hardly any blues or feel in their solos, which the 80's guys (in my opinion at least) still had. They also seem to be playing easier examples of shredding (like shadows fall will use a 3 string sweep where an 80's guy would have used 4 or 5) to make them sound better than they are- a bit like the way jeff beck said that you could play easy stuff that sounded hard (though jeff beck rules!).
So, umm, yeah. None of the modern players in a lot of the popular metal bands really impresses me. Like amott of arch enemy said recently in an interview I read, the only reason people think he's a guitar god is because there's nobody any better- he said he wouldn't have stood a chance in the 80's. And while I agree, I think amott is one of the good modern players!
Um, rant over, lol.
:drink:
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i thought lots of guys sweeped across 3 strings... i know friedman (ex-megadeth) does it a lot (definitely over 4 strings)
It's very possible - I don't listen to much music of that type really, it's just something that I've not noticed people doing...maybe I heard it without realising what it was :drink:
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^ aye, no problem. In fact, very few songs (that I listen to anyway) have full 6-string sweeps. I use 4 string sweeps a lot- they're the best balance between being reasonably simple (6 take a lot more effort and you can't really throw them in as easily to normal playing, they're almost like a circus trick) but still being worth the bother to actually sweep them (2 or 3 string ones you can almost just alternate pick).
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That makes sense - I never bothered with sweep picking because it took effort, and it doesn't really fit in to the type of music I normally play :drink:
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Well that's the worst song I've heard in a while. How do these bands manage to find fans?
And about dragonforce, I stand by what I've always said - yes, their solos are nothing but cheese played too fast, but their songs are nothing but cheese played too fast. That's the whole point. And maybe it's not as impressive or difficult to play as rusty cooley's new improv which spells out the second act of Shakespeare's Othello if you consider the 0-24th frets as A to Y respectively with each word spelled by sweep picking over however many strings that stupid thing has (antidisestablishmentarianism was a tough one...) but frankly, who cares? When did we start judging music by how much we could admire the guys playing it? When did we stop just listening?
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^Best reply ever!
As for annihilator, they rule :-) if you like exceptionally tounge in check thrash, imagine Anthrax to the power 10 ;-) Fun palace rules.
I don't actually listen to much dragon force, even after seeing them twice live, it's not that i don't like them i just haven't bought they're cd's, i do really like they're stuff but i'd much rather listen to some Blind Guardian or some Ensiferum for that music.
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I've only heard one Annihlator song, Wicked Mystic, it was pretty good, I guess I need more!
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If you're still on the Roadrunner site, I recommend hearing that 3 Inches of Blood demo - I got into them when their debut came out - they're a great slice of fun metal, although technically not up there with (even) Trivium, but that's not the point.
And that Detonation solo is awful :shock:
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^Best reply ever!
As for annihilator, they rule :-) if you like exceptionally tounge in check thrash, imagine Anthrax to the power 10 ;-) Fun palace rules.
I don't actually listen to much dragon force, even after seeing them twice live, it's not that i don't like them i just haven't bought they're cd's, i do really like they're stuff but i'd much rather listen to some Blind Guardian or some Ensiferum for that music.
Ensiferum rules, Wintersun is also great (ex vocalist + guitarist of Ensiferum's new band!)
Blind Guardian are excellent too, i like their early speed metal kind of thing!
As for Annihilator, 'Never, Neverland', 'Alice In Hell' and 'Set The World On Fire' are crucial thrash metal albums, the guitar work is amazing, Jeff Waters couldn't come up with a bad riff if he tried!
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I saw Wintersun at Wacken this year, 1st band i watched.. both guitarists used Ibanez JEMs and were awesome, didnt miss a beat! Great band, just ordered their live DVD
Likewise seen Ensiferum and they were great... in fact Norther were probably the worst 'incarnation' of the vocalist\guitarist that i've seen..
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Anyway back to trivium :P lol. I am most displeased with their new stuff. Basically for the fact its as if Matt heafy is purposefully going out of his way to try and be james hetfield. I first noticed this when i saw them live at download. There he was, in his metallica t-shirt, pulling all of hetfield faces and hand gestures to the crowd. Even the same god damn stance. I thought, hey fair enough, hetfield must be like his ultimate idol. Hell Alexi from Bodom is a major idol for me , both for his songwriting and also his stage presence. If i was on stage, id love to act like alexi.. sure i wouldnt copy his every move and stuff because thats just being horribly fake, but i'd try and replicate that same energy. But anyway, now this new song sounds so much liek tallica its uncanny. Both his singing style, and also lyrical structure (when the vocals first come in for the verse bit.. when it sounds like he tries to fit too many words into a line.. thats just so trademark tallica in my books).
Anyways, thought you all might find this funny.. Paranoidave did another trivium spoof vid for this very song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Euv38Pxom9s
Petre
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I saw Wintersun at Wacken this year, 1st band i watched.. both guitarists used Ibanez JEMs and were awesome, didnt miss a beat! Great band, just ordered their live DVD
Likewise seen Ensiferum and they were great... in fact Norther were probably the worst 'incarnation' of the vocalist\guitarist that i've seen..
Ensiferum's new vocalist (the guy from Norther) really does not fit their style, they should have made Jari stay!
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i can sweep 7 strings 8)
and i dont even have a 7 string anymore muahaha!
so yea im back to 6.. oh well.. didums!
Erm Trviums solos blow nuts, as for creative soloists.. lemme think..
Andy Timmons (Danger Danger)
Steve Vai (David Lee Roth)
Marty Friedman (Megadeth)
Nuno Bettencourt (Extreme)
Kirk Hammett (Metallica) - After he stopped widdling and started playing, no offence but yea the early metallica albums are fantastic but Kirk imo.. sucked until the Black Album.. and his vibrato still needs work.
John Petrucci (This Man has never played a bad note!)
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John Petrucci (This Man has never played a bad note!)
kinda hard when you play all the notes that are on the fretboard in 2.5 bars
LMAO!!!!
well.. he DOES play 4 billion notes per second
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Melting guitars and people in the process. :P
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Vai on Eat "Em and Smile is still the benchmark....he only bettered himself on the PIL track "Home", by god that track is good.
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i can sweep 7 strings 8)
and i dont even have a 7 string anymore muahaha!
so yea im back to 6.. oh well.. didums!
Erm Trviums solos blow nuts, as for creative soloists.. lemme think..
Andy Timmons (Danger Danger)
Steve Vai (David Lee Roth)
Marty Friedman (Megadeth)
Nuno Bettencourt (Extreme)
Kirk Hammett (Metallica) - After he stopped widdling and started playing, no offence but yea the early metallica albums are fantastic but Kirk imo.. sucked until the Black Album.. and his vibrato still needs work.
John Petrucci (This Man has never played a bad note!)
nice list, other than hammett.
:drink:
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The guitarists in Dragonforce kindof strike me as being like those kids you always see in guitar shops that are into metal. You see them shredding and the like, and then when they try and playing anything bluesy or soulful it just sounds like a metal guitarists' idea of what blues is like, and think by playing it faster that they're actually better than people like Stevie Ray Vaughan or Howlin' Wolf.
Their repertoire has no basis in rock or blues rock, it's just speed playing - impressive nonetheless, but only for it's technical qualities. A great guitarist rock or metal guitarist has both good technical ability and a deep understanding of the music being played and how to put feel into what's being played. When I'm researching for Shredaholic.com I tend to see people shredding in that way a LOT, and it's just fast guitar - not fast music. You can tell they're like this just by viewing their faces and expressions; most of the time they're looking away with a solemn look on their face, staring at the ceiling etc, not really enjoying what they're playing because it's good music.
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^ I agree, I think I posted something similar earlier in this thread.
and SRV played pretty fast a lot of the time, too... :D
:drink:
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http://www.myspace.com/trivium
Entrance of the Conflagulation
New Trivium song.... hetfield on vocals it seems.
Good track though 8)
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Definately better than their old stuff, coz it sounds kinda like 'tallica, just not as good :P They shoulda had the songs like this from the start imho..
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Sounds good, but still i can't call them thrash because they look emo.
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Thought id ressurrect this...
The new album is amazingly................
FANTASTIC!!!!!!!
Just listened to a promo copy and it wipes the floor with the other 2 trivium albums.
Vocals are great through out, as is the playing and song writing... anyone who doubted their playing ability needs to listen to the 8min instrumental 'The Crusade' (they channel Michael Angelo's Speed Kills in the latter part of it lol)...
this is so far away from the metalcore emo (whatever) stuff thats everywhere now, its a good heavy metal album with a nice mix of songs and styles.. plenty of solos and cool riffs :D
Maybe its not groundbreaking, but its fantastic!!!!!
Going on my must buy top 5 CD list along with the new I cd (Abbath from immortals new band... holy shite is it good), new Agalloch cd, the new Belphegor blast beat fest and the new Blind Guardian \m/
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I got a chance to listen to a promo copy the other day too. I'm not so sure about it. The guitar playing is jaw dropping (Matt Heafy is an awesome guitarist, I prefer his solos, tone and general playing to Corey's) but MH is trying SO hard to be James Hetfield IMO. 'The Anthem' is a classic, and there are a few other good ones but to be honest I preferred Ascendency. I know it was all metalcore emo-ish stuff (or whatever it gets categorized into) but I thought they were bloody good at it. At Total Guitar put it, this is the best Metallica album in ages. But no-one sounds great doing Metallica apart from Metallica (well, not these days unfortunately) and their undeniable talent (especially Heafy's) is totally wasted on this album, which should have been called 'And Justice Part Deux'. The title track is a mess too IMO. It's just a mish-mash of time signature and riff changes. They're not Metallica and they should stop trying to be and go back to what they were good at, which was what got them noticed in the first place. Here's hoping album number four will be 'the one' :).
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I like it apart from the vocals, it's trying to be Hetfield but failing, but that instrumental is pretty kool, and i like the guitar work a lot.
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Back to the 3-string sweep thing, if you mean this kinda thing:
C# minor
-16--12-------------12--|
----------14-----14------|
--------------13---------o|
---------------------------o|
-D---U---U---U---D--U---|
----------------------------|
I can do it resonably fast (Triplets at 240 BPM) from a brief stint with trying to learn Steve Morse's 'Tumeni Notes' (yes, i am a fool).
But 3 string sweeps are pretty cool as just a little transitional 'zip' from top note to bottom in an otherwise non-shred solo.