Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Bainzy on August 23, 2006, 01:16:03 AM
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"All that mumbo-jumbo with "unevenly hand wound, thus giving clearer highs"-blah and whatnot is just pure bullshitee. Those pups are in no way better or much different than any bog-standard Seymour, DiMarzio or whatever if you look for the right model. And that for less than half the price."
"Gibson makes some of the very best pups out there, the price is not for nothing. Every good pickup is about the same strictly quality-wise, there's just no better. Everything else is either a myth or a simple matter of personal preference."
http://www.kramerforum.com/forum/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=11703
must be from the "I can't see oxygen therefore it does not exist" school of thought....
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More of the "I'm not contradicting myself if I start a new sentence" school by the look of it...
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The funniest part is that its like they hate BKP. All that hate for guitar pickups. Gebus.
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The funniest part is that its like they hate BKP. All that hate for guitar pickups. Gebus.
Its strange, they have never even heard a BK pickup and they immediatly label it as garbage. Their loss.
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FWIW the current exchange rate probably makes BKPs very expensive in the US.
However, he's on crack if he thinks Gibson make decent quality pickups :lol:
(& if "the price is not for nothing" justifies Gibson quality then why doesn't it for BKP?)
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That is a very sad (and hopefully lonely) individual.
Yes Gibson used to make some of the best pickups in the world, around 1958.
Funny enough they where also hand made, scatterwound and had offset winds. Hmm possibly Gibson where onto something there ;)
As for price remind them that there is a 17.5 price reduction from the list price for the absence of VAT.
Hmmm, but two sets of custom duncans I don't think so, even two sets of standard duncans are stretching it a bit even @ US prices
Rob...
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i tried a miracle man, steve special, kent armstrong and emg hz in the same guitar recently, i recorded each one i know which sounded better and had better dynamics.. Isnt that all that should count to the individual?
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lol another internet argument. My point of view is better than your point of view! arrgghhhhh
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i tried a miracle man, steve special, kent armstrong and emg hz in the same guitar recently, i recorded each one i know which sounded better and had better dynamics.. Isnt that all that should count to the individual?
No why should it when it dosn't agree with my opinion ;)
I think this shows why the BKP forum is such a nice place to be.
Rob...
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All that hate for guitar pickups. Gebus.
Have you tried mentioning EMG on here? :wink: :lol:
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All that mumbo-jumbo with "unevenly hand wound, thus giving clearer highs"-blah and whatnot is just pure bullshiteee.
Wrong, with epirical evidence to back it up.
Those pups are in no way a) better
Hmmm ... arguing a something totally subjective with your own subjective/biased opinion. While 'better' in terms of sonics is defintiely subjective, 'better' in terms of construction is not. So, in that regard, objectively speaking, BKs are better than a mass-produced made-to-cost pickup.
or b) much different than any bog-standard Seymour, DiMarzio or whatever if you look for the right model.
This is essentially correct. There are so many ways you can make a pickup. However, this statement is pretty ignorant! I wonder if this guy feels the same way about everything -- all beers are the same, all cars are the same, all guitars are the same? (Hmm, maybe he's one of those commune-loving hippies? :) )
And that for less than half the price.
Wrong again. Even in the US, a Duncan is more than half the cost of a BK.
Analysis -- This guy is obviously a troll, and on better forums, would be warned and then outright banned for trolling. I'm not entirely sure why this thread was even started, it seems a bit like deliberate whacking of the hornet's nest to me. The original poster's ingorance is staggering, however -- even for the internet!
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The original poster's ingorance is staggering, however -- even for the internet!
That's why I posted it here - I couldn't be bothered explaining to him or trying to reason with him as I didn't think it would be much use, so I just thought I'd show you guys the ignorance out of curiosity.
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And they come in all the regular covered and uncovered configurations too.
I'm not going to argue with you people that BKP's sound better than whatever other pickups you care to mention, as, although I believe they do, this is a very subjective matter and it would be wrong of me to try and force my opinions on you.
However, I will tell you categorically that BKP better or equal any other pickup manufacturer you can name on all the little details.
1) They come in 2 or 4 conductor wiring, at no extra cost.
2) They wind the pickups by hand and (whatever _xxx_ decides to tell you) there is a large amount of evidence that this has a positive effect on tone.
3) They source all the old school materials (or make their own if necessary) when they sound better than modern materials, otherwise they use the newer stuff.
4) Tim (yes, the big cheese of BKP) regularly visits the forum to answer questions, and it is common practice with BKP for people to email or PM Tim their tone requirements, and he will take the time to reply, informing you of the best pickup for you.
5) If you have an unconventional winding requirement (over/underwound for example), if you let Tim know, he will do his best to accomodate it.
6) If you would prefer your pickups with a different magnet type or cover to those offered as standard, they are often able to be incorporated (custom ceramic Warpigs are popular of late, and the plastic single coil covers on my Slowhands were able to be chrome plated at no extra charge).
7) Knowledgeable users of BKPs actively participate in the forum, and record sound clips of them to contribute to the site - all to help others with their decision.
And all of these things are offered for (even in the US) less than twice the price of a Seymour Duncan. It is for these reasons and more that there are many satisfied customers of BKP, and most of those customers are trying to finance buying their second set.
The other thing I will point out to you is that there are very few people that have used a Bare Knuckle Pickup that will not agree with me that they are the best sounding pickups they have come across.
I discovered BK Pickups by accident. A custom guitar was delivered to my house by mistake. I had a quick play before I sent it back, and was stunned by how much better it sounded than any of my guitars. I found out it had BK's in, and I swiftly saved up and bought some - and I don't regret it. I'm currently saving for my next set.
Threadstarter: The Miracle Man is a great choice with a tight low end - Shoot a PM or an email Tim's way if you need clarification that it's the right set to get.
Thought I'd let them know what I (we?) think :drink:
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FWIW the current exchange rate probably makes BKPs very expensive in the US.
True. Here in Canada I can get a set of Seymour Duncan or DiMarzio pickups for $120 USD, but BKPs cost me $360 USD--three times the price! You have to be rich or really dedicated to go for BKPs here.
Its strange, they have never even head a BK pickup and they immediatly label it as garbage. Their loss.
It's a sad fact that most people are automatically mistrustful of the unfamiliar without bothering to check it out.
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How the hell did you "accidentally" take delivery of a custom guitar?
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haha, I haven't tried enough BKP's to know much about them (i.e. i tried one, and I didn't know the model), but I do know (as I expected) that it handed a seymour duncan, that I tried head to head with it for comparison purposes, its ass on a plate.
Now, I do agree a lot of it's personal preference.
But I know what mine is- and the fact that I still post here should tell you what that preference is (I will get some, soon!)...
and those gibbo pickups he mentioned are even worse than seymours.
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How the hell did you "accidentally" take delivery of a custom guitar?
Well, it was a coupla days after LGS where I bought Tim's Screamer, and when he sent it out to me, he somehow sent me an Ethos custom, that he'd been fitting Abraxas's to at the same time - I dunno how he managed it, or whether it was the deliery people making a mess of things - but I ended up with the guitar, which was sent back to Tim the same day - after a bit of a fiddle :lol:
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I feel quite sorry for that lad.Imagine having a mentality that kinda says
"I went abroad once but I didn't like it".
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It always surprises me when people moan about BKP prices. We're talking about hand-made pickups, so why do people expect prices comparable to mass-produced Duncans or DiMarzios?
BKP fall into the same "bracket" as Fralin, Lollar, Tom Holmes (when they were available) and Joe Barden. All of those are in a similar price range to BKPs (depending on where you're buying from).
And as already mentioned, the RRP of Gibsons, Duncans and EMGs aren't far off - yes, you can buy them discounted if you shop around, but that's because they're mass-produced (actually, I just looked on Coda's site and a covered Duncan is now £80!). A PRS humbucker will cost you £100; a Duncan Antiquity £100+. What's all the fuss about?
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Gibson pickups are DEFINITLEY NOT! as good as Bare Knuckle ones, in fact Bare Knuckles are that good that it'll make any other pickups sound awefull. trust me on this one! I have 100% faith in my pickups now I got the Mule and BKP90, they make the old ones sound absolutley pathetic, almost like the difference from a muddy, cold, plastic tone to a rich, clear, atriculate, WARM and beautifull sound. How can you argue that this is a bad thing???
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If you can't hear the difference between seymour duncans and BKPs, you probably shouldn't be voicing your opinions on such matters. You simply don't have good enough ears/experience to be able to offer advice to people.
If people don't want to use BKPs for whatever reason, I don't really care too much. What I hate is when people bitch about a product they haven't tried.
Having said that, I think you would have to be stupid to follow the advice and trust the judgement of someone who hasn't played a BKP.
In my opinion, the guys on that forum are welcome to each others ignorance.
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Was that first sentence aimed at us or them?
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Was that first sentence aimed at us or them?
HA!
I actually laughed out loud upon reading that!!!
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Was that first sentence aimed at us or them?
I'm sure you guys can all hear the difference between SDs and BKPs... Which is why most of you on this forum are using them.
Sorry, I should have probably made myself clearer in that post.
The whole post was directed toward 'them'.
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The whole post was directed toward 'them'.
That's alright then :drink:
Welcome to the forum Sir, I think this is our first encounter :)
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True. Here in Canada I can get a set of Seymour Duncan or DiMarzio pickups for $120 USD, but BKPs cost me $360 USD--three times the price! You have to be rich or really dedicated to go for BKPs here.
That may be the case but the SD or DiMarzio isnt hand made, and isn't tweaked to be closer to what you really desire.
As somebody mentioned (sorry I forgot) a single standard SD humbucker is 80 UKP here which translates to $167.99 Canadian (151 USD).
Rob...
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And with a bit of quick maths, you're paying (for comparison) $180US for a single BKP, we pay £90 - or $170US
So a $10 mark up is not really that bad in the big scheme of things :drink:
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what i also think is that to really appricate BKP you need to live with the "almost there but not quite" sound of factory pickups like DiMarzio etc. for a few years.
another not-quite-so-positive bkp review is here:
http://www.tonymckenzie.com/Bare_knuckle_pickups.htm
although this one is at least a balanced discussion.
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"Scatter Winding" (Also called "Random Wrap") - a machine spins the bobbin, and the magnet wire goes through the hands of an operator (named Seymour) who distributes the wire along the bobbin in an intentional scattered or random pattern. All scatter wound pickups are hand wound. Not all hand wound pickups are scatter wound.
Scatter Winding has a few effects on a pickup's tone.
First of all, when you scatter wind a pickup, you’re not placing the wire as close to itself on each layer as you would with a machine. The effect is to create more air space in the coil. This lowers the distributed capacitance. The best way to think of distributed capacitance is like a little tone control in the pickup. When the capacitance is lowered, the result is that more treble will come through and the resonant peak of the pickup will increase slightly.
Secondly, each scatter-wound pickup will sound slightly unique. You can scatter-wind ten pickups with the same wire and number of turns, but each will sound different.
^^
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/glossary.shtml - from the horses mouth.
ooh and guess what service Seymour Duncan offer in there custom shop?
Coil Winding-hand or scatter winding “Call for Quote”
point proven.. scatterwinding is not sales bullshitee, it works it's proven seymour duncan even does it himself and probably would do on every pickup if it didnt cost him 5 million a year in manual labour when he can just pay the electricity bill for a few machines hes probably long paid for.
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In that review, he says "The Pickup's I have tried are too toppy for my liking" .. why wouldnt you just turn down the treble on your amp a bit?
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Bare Knuckle should describe pickup names in a much better way
The title 'Nail Bomb' for example says nothing of the sound of the pickup
a major problem in my view for prospective buyers.
Because Custom 5 and Tonezone are so descriptive :roll:
Honestly, the names would be worth buying them for alone!!
If his musical knowledge is so limited that he can't understand what the names imply, one must question his opinion.
Listening to the music on the site his real problem is that he's a fairly noisy player, doesn't fret cleanly enough and doesn't mute enough when he's tapping. I think this explains his bizarre description of "uncontollable feedback". As someone recently said, a good pickup will highlight the flaws in a weak player.
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I've read that Tony McKenzie review of the Cold Sweats before, when I first started finding out about BKPs. His comments about them being too bright made me more interested, because personally I find most bridge humbuckers don't have enough top end for my liking.
Bare Knuckle should describe pickup names in a much better way. The title 'Nail Bomb' for example says nothing of the sound of the pickup a major problem in my view for prospective buyers.
That really is a bizarre comment - the names of the pickups give you an instant idea of what they sound like! Of course I say that as someone who's been listening to rock/metal for nearly 30 years; I suppose if I was a jazz cat or a 16 year old indie fan the names wouldn't mean much - but neither do the names of anyone else's pickups (EMG81? Custom Custom? Steve's Special? FRED?).
What the names don't tell you is everything the pickup is capable of - Nailbomb makes you think of Sepultura/Fudge Tunnel but you have to do more research to find that it's also a versatile lead pickup. And it's impossible to come up with a name that'll tell you exactly how it'll sound in your guitar with you playing it. I don't imagine for a moment that if I bought an Emerald I'd instantly sound like Brian Robertson on "Live and Dangerous" - but the name does give a very good idea of what the pickup was designed to do.
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Welcome to the forum Sir, I think this is our first encounter :)
I believe it is! I've lurked on here for a while and thought it was about time to make a few posts myself!
Thanks for the welcome mate!
:D
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Bare Knuckle should describe pickup names in a much better way
The title 'Nail Bomb' for example says nothing of the sound of the pickup
a major problem in my view for prospective buyers.
Because of course the JB sounds so exactly like Jeff Beck!
I liked the way that BNP changed the units - not unique, but really
good customer service.
Neo-Nazi pickups?
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^ :lol:
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True. Here in Canada I can get a set of Seymour Duncan or DiMarzio pickups for $120 USD, but BKPs cost me $360 USD--three times the price! You have to be rich or really dedicated to go for BKPs here.
That may be the case but the SD or DiMarzio isnt hand made, and isn't tweaked to be closer to what you really desire.
As somebody mentioned (sorry I forgot) a single standard SD humbucker is 80 UKP here which translates to $167.99 Canadian (151 USD).
Rob...
Oh, I wasn't arguing about the quality difference. I prefer BKPs to anything else I've heard so far. But the point about the price still stands. For you guys it's a no-brainer since you're paying a similar price regardless of which pickups you choose, but over in North America we can get the local stuff far, far cheaper.
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I can see where he's coming from with the Nailbomb not being clear about how it sounds - as it wouldn't make me think of Sepultura (as I never really listened to them and don't see how the name relates) but it IS a helluva lot clearer than other pickup names...When you hear "Nailbomb", what's the first thing you think of? - Bomb = Explosion = Very Loud = Not Jazz :drink:
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I can see where he's coming from with the Nailbomb not being clear about how it sounds - as it wouldn't make me think of Sepultura (as I never really listened to them and don't see how the name relates)
Nailbomb was a mid-90s side project featuring Max Cavalera of Sepultura and Alex Newport of Fudge Tunnel. I think they only did one studio and one live album.
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Nailbomb was a mid-90s side project featuring Max Cavalera of Sepultura and Alex Newport of Fudge Tunnel. I think they only did one studio and one live album.
...and damn fine they both were, was kind of industrial and had dino cazares guesting on a coupla tracks :D
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In that review, he says "The Pickup's I have tried are too toppy for my liking" .. why wouldnt you just turn down the treble on your amp a bit?
:D That`s exactly what i was thinking !!
I own a set of Cold Sweats & i have to say i don`t find them overly "Bright" or "Trebly" but actually really well balanced. But this guy says his using a Wah well that`ll make everything sound more "Topy" As for the rest of `em why are you bothering arguing just think you`ve got a far far better sound than they have It`s there lose not yours.
:D 8)
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am I the only one who thought "why don't you just stop using wah?" i mean, that's gonna add more treble than anything, especially if he's using it for tapping, in the (as I expect) toe-down position...
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Rant starts....
I hate getting involved with slamming people or internet debating (arguing) but reading that Tom guys review and then listening to his playing I had to say something.
First off it sounds like he wants the moon on a stick, he doesn't seem impressed with the outstanding customer service he had gotten. I mean talking to the pickup designer and being reccomended who then kindly exchanges thus said pickup for another reccomendation? Where do these people come from?
This guy has been playing a band for 8 years and played for I dunno how much his skill is terrible! and he seems to have an ego WTF?!?!
Also I don't really see how you can hear the tone of a pickup when you have chorus, flanger, reverb and wah effects!
He mentions tops, does he even know anything about frequency, its like theres controls on an amp usually call treble u can turn it down. Also F*ck knows what EQ settings this Effects Monster has on his rig.
Rant ends!
Seriousley I agree with that guy who mentioned the true sound you get out of a Bare Knuckle pickup, it doesn't hide sloppy playing, every note is clear.
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am I the only one who thought "why don't you just stop using wah?" i mean, that's gonna add more treble than anything, especially if he's using it for tapping, in the (as I expect) toe-down position...
Perhaps it's an ego thing (looking at the site).
I actually don't meant to critisise anybody but there is the feeling that if it dosn't come out of the box exactly the way he want's then it's viewed as being faulty (even down to presets on multi fx boxes). His web site is also a bit duff with that huge download on the main page.
I as usual am prepared to be corrected though and would would like to hear his opinion of a pickup which is more suited to his requirements, as he is obviously very interested in tone and quality equipment (even if he does like Boss effects).
Rob...
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the guy who posted this. His EGO is useless cos he can't back up his points logically as there is now so much opposition, and also EGO is in this case when someone is very openly insecure and hates himself. The worse thing about EGO is that it destroys the inner soul in a very negative way, why do these people have so much to prove??? what pushed them over the line in the first place??? Dont say something unless it's the truth! this guy is trying to brain wash us into beliving his bullshitee, and it is bullshitee! bet you he'll reply to this having yet another anger fit ; D If I was him I wouldnt have posted this forum as it's done him no favours at all. can we all agree on this?
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if he just TURNS THE TREBLE DOWN then it would make a difference lol
Reminds me of a thread on HC recently where some guy says 'i use single coils through 11 effects pedals into my amp, at home its fine, should there be noise\feedback when i play it loud at a gig?'
My Nailbombs are quite bright, but they are in a bolt on maple\swamp ash floyd guitar! Treble controls for the win 8)