Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Crazy_Joe on August 28, 2006, 08:58:45 PM
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Ok i have made various threads about amps and if i should go SS or Tube. Now i'm definate that i want to go tube.
Here is the briefing:
Tone I'm looking for: Early Metallica.
Money i have to spend: In the range of 400-500 quid (unless there is something exceptional, in that case i will save more for it)
Various notes: Not really bothered if i have to use a pedal, though it would be nice for it too have a great distortion so i wouldn't need one.
I want good cleans aswel, but usually most tube amps have nice clean sounds anyway.
Amps i'm looking at now:
Laney LC50-II ------------------£415 (inc. postage)
Peavey Valve King 212 --------£359
Ashdown FA60 DSP ------------£455 (inc. postage)
When i get my Bare Knuckles in the future it looks like i will be getting Ceramic Warpig bridge and Cold Sweat neck, if all goes to plan.
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if by early you mean ride the lightning and kill em all, I'd say the dsl. EDIT: if you mean later, probably the ashdown or the randall rg50tc. th marshall may do it if you can get to crank it (i.e. be able to run it at at least half volume most of the time.. which is pretty loud)
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Master Of Puppets, ...And Justice For All, kind of tone. Though i still like Kill 'Em All and RTL tone aswel.
What is the best amp in there for the MoP, AJFA tone? (if they can do it)
Also if they can't do it is there a pedal i could use with it which would get the tone?
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Ever thought about Laney? I hear they're quite good for metal and not really expensive. Gilbert uses Laneys and has amazing tone.
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What's the best Laney combo amp for the tone i want?
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Master Of Puppets, ...And Justice For All, kind of tone. Though i still like Kill 'Em All and RTL tone aswel.
What is the best amp in there for the MoP, AJFA tone? (if they can do it)
Also if they can't do it is there a pedal i could use with it which would get the tone?
early Metallica is still Marshalls as far as I know (Ride The Lightening certainly sounds like it). They were still using passive pickups on this album too - most likely Dimarzio Super Distortions.
Master of Puppets and Justice are both mkIII Boogies into EV-loaded 4x12s with guitars running EMG81s.
The Justice rhythm tone is one of my all time faves in metal.
:twisted:
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If we are talking about Hetfield here;
KEA = Jose Arrendondo Modified 100 watt Marshall SLP
Pro Co Rat Distortion Pedal
Marshall 4x12
White Flying V Copy (passive
RTL = Replacement 100 watt Marshall Heads that were later modified (KEA originals stolen)
Ibanez Tube Screamer-Last time James used an overdrive/distortion pedal
Marshall 4x12
White Flying V Copy
White Gibson Explorer EMG
MOP = Mesa Boogie Mk IIC+
Mesa Boogie Quad Preamp
Marshall JCM 800
Marshall JMP Heads
Marshall 4x12 with 65 watt speakers
Furman PQ4 parametric EQ
Ibanez multi-effects box
Mesa Boogie Heads slaved into Marshalls
White Gibson Explorer EMG
White Flying V Copy
AJFA = Mesa Boogie Mark IIc+
Mesa Boogie Quad Preamp
Marshall JMP/JCM Heads
Roland JC120 Combo
Marshall 4x12
Mesa Boogie 4x12
Mesa Boogie Heads slaved into Marshalls
White Gibson Explorer EMG
2xWhite and 1xBlack ESP Explorer
Marshall 4x12 cabs all use Celestion Vintage 30's!
Also, on AJFA, James 'scoops' his mids alot more than usual (as, contrary to many beliefs he is not a 'heavy' scooper.
This is all studio eqpt.
Dare say with pedals may get close but KEA had heavily modded Marshall heads and 'most' of perceived Tallica tone is pure 'Mesa' tone.
Mesa, being rather costly, esp. for what he used/uses (a ROV does the job nicely though) a Mesa pedal 'may' work;
like a Mesa 'V twin' if you can find one.
Apart from that, a modellor I guess.
Having played and now owning a Mesa I have to say they have a VERY distinctive tone and hitting it without digital effect (modellor) or real thing may be tricky.
Sorry, hope ya get close though.
BTW, Have an ENGL Screamer half stack (pedals, HBE) and 10 band EQ and cannot replicate the tone of the Mesa Rectifier (so this may be one to knock off list).
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NO first hand experience but have heard this can get close to a Rectifier tone;
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hughes-and-Kettner-Warp-Factor-Distortion-New_W0QQitemZ120025351171QQihZ002QQcategoryZ22669QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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I run a DSL 401 and it does Metallica well, I'd invest in a booster pedal though, such as an SD-1 to get a more tight sound. It is also good for going from a bassy chug to upper midrange bite - good for Metallica. You might want it modifying though - DIY all the way!
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I used to have a Marshall Valvestate. Clean and crunch channel were horrible but that heavy overdrive was pure Metallica.
A DSL should do the trick nicely with that 'deep' switch.
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The 401 combo dosnt have a deep switch, but the DSL 50 does - which can be had new for arround £520 but then you would need a cab (usually in the 400-500 range depending on first/seccond hand and make) :)
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I run a DSL 401 and it does Metallica well, I'd invest in a booster pedal though, such as an SD-1 to get a more tight sound. It is also good for going from a bassy chug to upper midrange bite - good for Metallica. You might want it modifying though - DIY all the way!
I looked at the SS H&K Matrix 100 combo ages ago and thought the warp channel was great, it does sound quite close to a rectifier too, it is also well in my price range, though it is not tube.
http://www.hughes-and-kettner.com/products.php?mode=sound&id=94#
Listen to the warp channel and tell me if that sounds like a rectifier.
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Also, i have heard clips of the Rocktron pedals, the Zombie rectifier, Silver Dragon tube pedal and the Metal Planet sound pretty good, and might get near to a tone i want.
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I personnaly think the H&K Warp serie is pure cr@p (beside the Warp Factor dist box wich kicks serious ass through a good tube amp), I've played on one of those warp transistor head and it sounded like a loud Boss MT-2... horrible.
I recently tried a Peavey Valveking and recommend it to anyone with a tight budget (or noobs, they like the fact it's all tubes, they fell like their idols with that haha), it very versatile (2 channels, reverb, can be set for class A vintage sound to AB modern with a pot, fully footswitchable) and IMHO kills anything in that price range in term of sound quality. And with all that it's VERY powerfull, the 212 combo wich is priced 470€ (thomann, germany) is rated 100W full tube power (insane IMO ^_^; ).
No hesitation here I think...
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Perhaps a used JCM800 combo? they go cheap on Ebay.
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I personnaly think the H&K Warp serie is pure cr@p (beside the Warp Factor dist box wich kicks serious ass through a good tube amp), I've played on one of those warp transistor head and it sounded like a loud Boss MT-2... horrible.
I recently tried a Peavey Valveking and recommend it to anyone with a tight budget (or noobs, they like the fact it's all tubes, they fell like their idols with that haha), it very versatile (2 channels, reverb, can be set for class A vintage sound to AB modern with a pot, fully footswitchable) and IMHO kills anything in that price range in term of sound quality. And with all that it's VERY powerfull, the 212 combo wich is priced 470€ (thomann, germany) is rated 100W full tube power (insane IMO ^_^; ).
No hesitation here I think...
Do you use your H&K warp pedal on the clean channel (if you have one)
What channel would you recommend me using it on if i got a Valve King?
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If you got a valveking you won't need it :lol: this amp got insane gain (and it's a death/meshuggah kind of guy telling you that). I use it on my Engl Tube pre on the rythm channel with a little gain (a bit more than crunch) and it seriously ripps with my baritone Schecter. I don't really need it, as the engl already got insane gain, but it gives me another sound in my arsenal :)
A valveking alone with a good guitar and maybe a speaker mod (Celestion H30 or V30 recomended) and you're good to go without anything else...
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I've read many reviews of this amp saying it is classic rock, and can only just do metal, and it was everyone saying that not just one person. I read about 10 reviews and then looked at something else.
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Success! I have found an Ashdown Fallen Angel 60 DSP for £455 new!
This is sure to give me a great distortion and great quality at an afordable price.
Though i havn't tried one i'm just going on what other people have said here. Does it have a good metal tone?
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Well I don't know what guitars all those guys use but with a high output HB there's enough gain for death metal.
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Right, well my list now looks like this (getting closer!):
Laney LC50-II ------------------£415 (inc. postage)
Peavey Valve King 212 --------£359
Ashdown FA60 DSP ------------£455 (inc. postage)
What do people know about this Laney LC50-II, good distortion, good cleans??
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I had an LC50 MkI for yonks, but I eventually killed it (A combination of general wear and tear and a moderatley stupid combination of pedals...Two RATs, maxed, a 50 db homemade preamp and a boss eq, maxed). Before I did that though, it was possessed of a pretty goddamn meaty rhythm tone, and not bad lead sounds with a bit of boost. They are a touch noisy though, unless you have really good valves.
If you were going for one, I'd go second hand, wap a decent speaker i there (mine was running an EVM 12-L) and stick a decent graphic eq in the loop. Good tubes would be of benefit, maybe even a re-bias to use el-34's if it's a Mk-I. All in all, a very nice amp.
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Well this one is a MK-II but i suppose it will be basically the same.
Decisions decisions.
The annoying thing is i can't try before i buy with the Laney, so i don't know if i will like it.
But i can try the Ashdown and Peavey.
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B52 AT-212, £420, not including postage. All tube. None of this tube preamp/tran poweramp.
The head + 4x12 cab will be more like £540 quid, not to far off.
But can it pull off Metallica? $%&#, it can pull of everything. It can sound kinda Marshall-ish, which should be good for the older stuff, or more Dual rectifier-ish, which will take care of everything else. This is because of the 3 rectifiers you can chose from and the low resonance control. Look it up because I suggest this all the time and I'm sick of explaining it :P
Cleans are great too. Much like a Fender Twin, but a little more sterile, but its not really sterile. Just more clean than the Twins.
EDIT: You can do more than just metal with the distortion also. If you use the 2nd overdrive channel, keep the gain below half, switch the rectifier to Class A and plug in a guitar with some medium/low powered pickups you can get a great VOX tone.
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Someone suggested a B52 before, it was probably you lol
But i couldn't find it anywhere, where did you find this one?
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I live in America, it is much easier to find it in stores in America. But you can get them online. It totaly skipped my mind that it might be hard to get outside of the US.
EDIT: Balls, musicians friend doesn't ship outside of the US, but here's a list of international dealers from the B-52 website.
http://www.b-52stealthseries.com/international.html
I also just checked on their website and there is now a 1x12 60 watt combo too!
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AJFA = ...
Marshall JMP/JCM Heads
Roland JC120 Combo
Marshall 4x12
Mesa Boogie 4x12
Mesa Boogie Heads slaved into Marshalls
White Gibson Explorer EMG
2xWhite and 1xBlack ESP Explorer
A JC120?! :o That is quite unexpected, my Dad used to have one whilst in a folk band many moons ago! It does go to show the level of experimentation and thought that Hetfield puts into getting his tone just right!
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In the range of 400-500 quid (unless there is something exceptional, in that case i will save more for it)
[.
the Cornford Harlequin is Exceptional! www.cornfordamps.co.uk
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My list now looks like this, i don't know how or why but it seems like i'm going even further away from making the decision!
Marshall AVT 100 ----------------£289
Marshall DSL 40 -----------------£405
Laney LC50-II -------------------£415
Peavey Valve King 212 ---------£359
Ashdown FA60 DSP -------------£455
Ashdown FA40 DSP -------------£397
The reason why the Marshall AVT is in there is because it is cheap and nobody else in the band has tube amps yet, however, on the other hand it might be wiser to go tube now instead of waiting for them to get tube amps which would result in me then forking out more money for another amp again.
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Why the 'tube with band' issue?
Many great players play/played SS and NOT tube.
Be ya 'own' man/guitarist and feck the rest :)
Mesa III+ was NOT a mega costly amp till Hetfield came along.
Randall Loved Dime.
Just a thought.
Be yourself and get recognition for 'your' sound :twisted:
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Why the 'tube with band' issue?
Many great players play/played SS and NOT tube.
Be ya 'own' man/guitarist and feck the rest :)
Mesa III+ was NOT a mega costly amp till Hetfield came along.
Randall Loved Dime.
Just a thought.
Be yourself and get recognition for 'your' sound :twisted:
FWIW I've found that tube amps seem to have more presence in a band situation.
When I saw my mates cover band play ages ago he was playing his AVT halfstack and the other guitarist was playing a Fender valve combo of some kind, both were around the same volume when played individually but as soon as the other guitarist started playing you couldnt really hear the AVT :lol: Probably also has to do with the EQ settings though I suppose.
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Just trying to say (no matter age/bank balance) that ALOT said here and online etc. is ALL conjecture and everyone needs (well should) do their own thing.
When not 'flush' or with 'large disposable income' it's NOT easy.
Also, as mentioned, many have done VERY well with SS, AKA Daryll in Pantera.
Just trying to say that $$$$$ gear does not = GREAT sound/player :)
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I'm really interested in these B-52 amps, never heard of them before. Anyone got any sound clips?
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Good advice Dakine :D
I'm just trying to make sure i'm getting a good amp here and that people havn't had bad expiriences with them or anything.
Sound wise, i will be the judge of that, and no one will influence my view on that because i know what i like.
But the build quality, how long the tubes will last etc. is what i need advice on because i don't know shite about that.
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Just trying to say (no matter age/bank balance) that ALOT said here and online etc. is ALL conjecture and everyone needs (well should) do their own thing.
exactly- I normally say "you should look into X, Y and Z" rather than "amp Q is awesome, buy it now!"
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Just trying to say (no matter age/bank balance) that ALOT said here and online etc. is ALL conjecture and everyone needs (well should) do their own thing.
exactly- I normally say "you should look into X, Y and Z" rather than "amp Q is awesome, buy it now!"
This is true, but amp Q is bloody good - I played one the other week and it rocked...Buy one now Joe!
:lol: Back on Topic, I agree with everything mentioned, and don't really have anything constructive to add...I kinda wish I hadn't started typing this now :P
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^ :lol:
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lol!
Well i think i can make up my own decision now, so this thread can now be put to rest.
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Id probably sell my ENGL Screamer combo (and Z5 footswitch) if asked, i really need some cash and due to a change in family circumstances i'm NEVER home in a position to actually use it properly, so i'm using my Guitarport mostly.
It wont give you a Mesa tone as its not a Mesa, but it does metal very well, and for the money i dont think you will easily beat it.. of course, you might hate it.. but there you go :)
Id stay clear from an Ashdown FA...
I had a 40w (non DSP) one, the gain without a boost was 'ok' at best. The amps are aimed at a bass heavy 'nu-metal' sound.
They get very, very hot which can melt various plastic bits\glue and cause problems, i think the newer ones are better (mine had a fan on it which added noise.. but at least it didnt melt!!!!).. its not that its a BAD amp, just voiced strange and a tad unreliable, and you (imo) should be looking at something more versatile and more reliable, saving for the amp is one thing, repairing it is another headache!
Over the years i've had alot of gear, and realised one thing: its nice in theory to aim at 'sounds' on cds, but those sounds are tweaked and tweaked and recorded by pros and engineered, so you will only ever get 'pretty close'. At one point i had a JCM 800, sd-1 pedal and a LP with EMG 81s as i was a huge Zakk Wylde fan..didnt sound anything like him (or play like him!) and ditched the amp as being too limiting.
Its hard to explain... but imo a good sound is a good sound, so i can play metallica, maiden, ozzy etc on any amp that i can get a good metal sound from..they sound like they do, i sound like me playing their stuff (probaly makes NO sense lol) ;)
Hard choice though... decisions decisions!
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Its hard to explain... but imo a good sound is a good sound, so i can play metallica, maiden, ozzy etc on any amp that i can get a good metal sound from..they sound like they do, i sound like me playing their stuff (probaly makes NO sense lol) ;)
That's exactly my theory on the matter :drink:
My Screamer can get a good metal tone (imo) and so, I use it for whatever metal I happen to be playing - so what if it doesn't sound the same as the actual band that originally recorded it :P
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Id probably sell my ENGL Screamer combo (and Z5 footswitch) if asked, i really need some cash and due to a change in family circumstances i'm NEVER home in a position to actually use it properly, so i'm using my Guitarport mostly.
It wont give you a Mesa tone as its not a Mesa, but it does metal very well, and for the money i dont think you will easily beat it.. of course, you might hate it.. but there you go :)
Id stay clear from an Ashdown FA...
I had a 40w (non DSP) one, the gain without a boost was 'ok' at best. The amps are aimed at a bass heavy 'nu-metal' sound.
They get very, very hot which can melt various plastic bits\glue and cause problems, i think the newer ones are better (mine had a fan on it which added noise.. but at least it didnt melt!!!!).. its not that its a BAD amp, just voiced strange and a tad unreliable, and you (imo) should be looking at something more versatile and more reliable, saving for the amp is one thing, repairing it is another headache!
Over the years i've had alot of gear, and realised one thing: its nice in theory to aim at 'sounds' on cds, but those sounds are tweaked and tweaked and recorded by pros and engineered, so you will only ever get 'pretty close'. At one point i had a JCM 800, sd-1 pedal and a LP with EMG 81s as i was a huge Zakk Wylde fan..didnt sound anything like him (or play like him!) and ditched the amp as being too limiting.
Its hard to explain... but imo a good sound is a good sound, so i can play metallica, maiden, ozzy etc on any amp that i can get a good metal sound from..they sound like they do, i sound like me playing their stuff (probaly makes NO sense lol) ;)
Hard choice though... decisions decisions!
How much would you be asking for this Screamer :P
I was planning on getting the Ashdown Fallen Angel 60 watt 2 x 12, i know people who are happy with their Ashdown's. But that melting part didn't sound too good!
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Bumped!
My list now looks like this:
Laney LC50-II
Randall RG50TC
Peavey Valve King 212
There is also an Ashdown 40 watt for £299 somewhere too.
I will have the money for one of these soon, any more last words before i make my decision?
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VaaaaaaaaaaaalllllvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeKiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnggggggggg
That'd be my choice out of those - but then if you like the others more then go for one of those :P
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I'd probably take the randall...
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There's a randall in the Scary Shop in Smithfield if you want one, Dave...
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There's a randall in the Scary Shop in Smithfield if you want one, Dave...
Only 3 X the price of a new one ;)
Rob...
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and the Ginger woman will eat your soul.
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and the Ginger woman will eat your soul.
Even wthout my soul I would feel dirty and used afterwards.
What randall do they have (I tend to avoid Smithfield)
Rob...
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There's a randall in the Scary Shop in Smithfield if you want one, Dave...
hmmm. I meant out of his choices, lol.
:drink:
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I was leaning towards the Laney, havn't had any encounters/experiences with any Randall product, and the only person i know who used one was Dimebag so i'm not sure about the Randall.
Valve king has gotten a reputation for being cheap cr@p from a lot of people, and it probably is for the money spent on it. The Laney i think will be built nicer than the others and will have a lot more gain than the Valve King.
Though i cannot try the Laney before i buy which sucks.
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i doubt very much that the laney lc50 has more gain than the randall, ashdown OR peavey. It has the least out of those...
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On the Laney site it says it has plenty of gain for metal.
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i doubt it. I wouldn't buy it for metal. depends what you mean by metal, though.
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i doubt it. I wouldn't buy it for metal. depends what you mean by metal, though.
Yeah, if by metal you mean country, you're all set :drink:
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i doubt it. I wouldn't buy it for metal. depends what you mean by metal, though.
Yeah, if by metal you mean country, you're all set :drink:
LOL
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Hahaha!!
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i doubt it. I wouldn't buy it for metal. depends what you mean by metal, though.
Yeah, if by metal you mean country, you're all set :drink:
:lol:
well, i mean, it's not that bad- it'd do maiden or something like that (i think).. but yeah, nothing remotely "modern"...
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Doesnt gilbert use the LC series as well as the GH series though? His tone is kinda modern sounding..
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I was leaning towards the Laney, havn't had any encounters/experiences with any Randall product, and the only person i know who used one was Dimebag so i'm not sure about the Randall.
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and Scott 'NOT' Ian at some point, as Daryll got him sent some from Randall.
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Well it is definatley the Randall now.
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Doesnt gilbert use the LC series as well as the GH series though? His tone is kinda modern sounding..
don't think so. he might use vc's... or the old vh combo.