Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: indysmith on September 12, 2006, 12:26:58 PM
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Do they sound like the genuine article? obviously the main difference is that they have a solid alder body and a maple neck as opposed to the original's all-round mahogany with a maple top. The reason i ask is (as you've probably guessed) because i can't afford a Jap one, and i'm not big on importing.
Also does any of yu know where yu can get the tokai SG35s? nato body and neck should sound pretty similar to the original's mahogany and its RRP is only £299 i think; so that's probably in my price range.
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I've heard they're not as good as the Jap stuff, which is to be expected I guess. Having said that, I have a Korean Epi SG that's incredibly good and punches way above it's weight. I've tried others since and none are as good as mine, so it might be worth trying a few out and seeing what you think.
Here's a place that sells the SG35. I bought my BKPs from them, and Chris (the boss) is great to deal with.
http://www.guitarzone.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_116&products_id=479&osCsid=5c263aaccc2e7d53fcb242b2c6e85846
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Thanks Twinfan. Have you ever compared your tokai against the gibson version? how does it fare? is there a noticable difference between nato and mahogany?
also, i found this place which does the entire range significantly cheaper :)
http://www.fuzzboxmusic.co.uk/html/tokai_guitars.htm
EDIT: oh, and what's the neck like? HUGE i assume
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I've heard that 'nato' isn't a particuarly good wood, and is the next thing up from plywood on cheap guitars. If you're looking for a decent sounding but close wood to genuine Mahogany, 'West African Mahogany' or Sapele would be a good place to start.
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Indy,
I've got an Epi (not Tokai) and in the shop I compared it to a Gibson SG Standard, a Gibson SG Faded Special and a regular G400 Epi.
Regular G400, Chinese. Generally good quality throughout. Sounded a bit raspy, but would be OK with new pickups. Big neck. £275
SG Faded Special, USA. Very cheap feeling. Scratchy to play - the rosewood felt really, really dry. Harsh pickups, again would sound OK with a pickup change. Not worth the premium over the G400 in my opinion. Huge neck. £599.
Used SG Standard, USA. Not a bad example. Good quality throughout, nice feeling neck, generally as a Gibson should be. Sounded a bit thick for an SG I thought. Medium sized neck. Nice guitar, but £799.
My '65 Epi, Korean "Custom Shop". Two piece body (VERY well matched), deep cherry colour, great thin neck with proper access to the top frets (all other SGs had bigger neck joints causing access issues). Surprisingly good pickups, Alnico V with a bit of an edge. Broadly similar to my current Riff Raffs, but not as refined or articulate. Most SG-like guitar of the lot. £349.
I've since completely upgraded the guitar with the Riff Raffs, complete USA spec wiring (including top spec CTS pots and orange drop caps) a TonePros bridge and a Tusq nut. Overlal the guitar owes me about £650 I think, but it knocks Gibson SGs for dead. The closest thing to it would be a '61 re-issue at £1100+, nearly double the cost. I wouldn't swap mine for a Gibson and it's my main gigging guitar. Everyone who's played it has loved it.
Try a few Korean Les Pauls and if you find a good one, buy it and gradually upgrade it. They make great workhorses for reasonable money.
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I used to own a bolt-neck Korean Tokai Les Paul Custom in black with gold hardware and rosewood fretboard. It was a nice guitar for the price - I'd say the quality was comparable to an Epiphone, maybe a fraction better. I installed a set of Mules in it and it served me well as my main gigging guitar for a few years. That said, it didn't quite nail the mahogany-body Les Paul tone - it was a little brighter, somewhere between an SG and an LP.
I recently sold that guitar and upgraded to a Japanese-made Tokai LS150 Les Paul Standard, and it's a vastly superior guitar. Endless sustain, superb accuracy (modelled on a '59 LP), beautiful tone and really comfortable. I ordered a calibrated set of uncovered Rebel Yells to go in it about a month ago from a local dealer, and I'm waiting on them arriving - once I get those in, it should be perfect.
Anyway, I got a little sidetracked - personally, I'd recommend paying a little extra and going for one of the Japanese models - the craftsmanship is so much better, the materials are better, and you'll get a much better LP tone. I've also heard the odd complaint regarding quality control with the Korean guitars (my old LP Custom had a slight S-bend in the neck), whereas the Japanese models seem to be far superior in this regard.
Hope this helps.
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thanks for the help guys - what i've done is stopped kidding myself and realised that what i REALLY want is a MIJ Les Paul. Since the cheapest examples of these are the grecos on ebay i guess i'll have to take the plunge and import one for cheap. Anything else but a Les Paul with the right woods and i know i'll regret buying it
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Good plan matey. I'm currently looking to get an Edwards LP from Japan. Shame we can't get a group discount!
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^lol, ask em :)
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i must say i'm very seriously looking at an edwards too after all the discussions here... we'd certinally save money on shipping by doing it as a group. maybe if we can get 5 or more guys together, it would work out.
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I guess the trouble is availability. The model I'm after isn't available until the end of December, so to save on the shipping we'd all have to wait until the last model was in stock at Ishibashi. If we don't mind waiting, it could work...
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When I spoke to the guys at Rich Tone Music last week about Tokai Love Rock guitars, because I was hankering for one with P90 in, one of them likened the LS150 on par to a Gibson LP Standard.
http://www.richtonemusic.co.uk/tokai-electric-guitars-2.htm
Its a starting point and I hope it helps you in your quest.
Phil
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the only problem with that is the price - hence why i'm looking at korean models
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tokia-LS75-Made-in-Japan-with-Bare-knuckle-Pickups_W0QQitemZ320027594706QQihZ011QQcategoryZ112670QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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The wood makes a Les Paul - whatever you buy, don't get an LP that isn't made with a mahogany body with carved maple top, and mahogany neck with rosewood fretboard. Even the differences between woods of the same type change the vibe of an LP quite a lot, which is why modern Gibson Standards don't sound like a real '59 burst - they use Indian instead of Brazilian Rosewood, and have about 11 weight relief holes drilled into the body because they use heavier Mahogany than the old ones.
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^ to add to bainzy's post (which he pretty much already said, but I just wanted to clarify) the amount of wood used, and its quality, affects the tone too.
there are plenty of £300-ish guitars made of similar materials to a LP, going by their spec- washburn idols, and yamaha aes series to name but two- and although they're made of the right materials, they don't really sound like LP's. they're too lightweight, and have more of a modern tone (this is due to the pickups as well, to be fair). I suspect the wood isn't of as high quality either (and also it's worth remembering that lots of different species of wood are known as "mahogany", so just because it's made of "mahogany", it mightn't be the "right" mahogany, as bainzy says). they're great guitars for the money, but don't be buying one expecting it to sound like a LP...
what about gordon smith? some of them are excellent for the money, in my opinion.
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what about gordon smith? some of them are excellent for the money, in my opinion.
John Smith doesn't use the same woods as Gibson, so it won't sound like a Les Paul. It'll sound good, but not like a Les Paul. A Japanese LP replica will be your best bet for the money if you want the LP tone.
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or a 'Signature' :twisted:
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I suspect the wood isn't of as high quality either (and also it's worth remembering that lots of different species of wood are known as "mahogany", so just because it's made of "mahogany", it mightn't be the "right" mahogany, as bainzy says). they're great guitars for the money, but don't be buying one expecting it to sound like a LP...
+1
The only true mahogany used in guitars is swietenia macrophylla ('Honduran Mahogany), and that's just about commercially extinct now - Gibson only use it on their historic LP's. The only other wood considered suitable to be really labelled as mahogany is khaya ivorensis, ie. 'West African Mahogany' since the tree is very similar to swietenia. Tonally this sounds extremely close to Honduran Mahogany, and most people can't tell the difference. I'd only accept these two woods in a guitar labelled as Mahogany.
Some guitars use Sapele, which is very similar to Mahogany and is also an African wood - but it's not real Mahogany. It's harder to work with, looks a bit different and is denser - so it sounds a bit brighter. It's relatively plentiful and worth a try, but an LP made with it won't sound like a real Les Paul.
The worst Mahogany substitutes aren't from trees structurally similar to Mahogany, and the ones that are being used by some budget manufacturers definately will not sound like real Mahogany - unfortunately they've somehow been allowed to label them as such.
At the end of the day, any guitar costing £300 or less definately will not be made with "true" South American Mahogany, and if it is made with African Mahogany, it's probably going to be made up of several pieces. If you're getting a strat type guitar, this probably isn't much of a concern, but if you want that Les Paul sound you need to get at least real West African Mahogany.
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someone buy this:
http://search.ebay.co.uk/tokia-bare-knuckle_W0QQfkrZ1QQfltZ9QQfromZR8
ill cry if they dont
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John Smith doesn't use the same woods as Gibson, so it won't sound like a Les Paul. It'll sound good, but not like a Les Paul. A Japanese LP replica will be your best bet for the money if you want the LP tone.
true. i thought they sounded pretty LP-alike though- more so than the korean guitars I've tried that are specced with mahogany. but yeah, they probably won't sound exact. they claimed that brazilian cedar sounds like honduran mahogany when I emailed them recently, though (in a side note, I'll probably just go with that rather than wait for them to source a nice piece of "real" mahogany, but then I'm not going for a totally accurate LP tone)
:drink:
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Whether it's the 'correct' type of Mahogany or not, I love my GordonS mith Graduate 60 8) Sounds great with a Black Dog and a Riff Raff in ti! :D
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I'm looking forward to trying out my Gordon Smith SG-1 with the Mississippi Queen I've just ordered :D
I'm a big fan of Gordon Smith guitars.
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^ Ditto. I tried maybe half a dozen (maybe a few more, actually) last time I was in London. I'm *this* far away from ordering one- I just need to decide which one I want/need most (from about a possible 3), and which BKP's to plump for...
:D
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What's on the list Dave???
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At the moment (which is totally liable to change, I'm the worst person ever at being decisive):
a gs1 with two BK p90's/MQ's
SG with riff raffs
GS2 deluxe with some as of yet undecided BKP 'buckers
I'll need to email them again to see (just in case they make my decision for me by telling me that two of those have a 9 month waiting list instead of 4 for the GS1), haven't got round to it yet...
:drink:
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Nice one!
By the way, it's likely to be cheaper to get one second hand and BKP it. Gordon Smiths full price are a bit expensive for what they are, but used they're a great deal. Depends if you want a specific bridge/colour etc I guess...
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Just scored myself a nice Greco Les Paul Custom on the ol' evilBay!!!
I'm so excited. not bad for the price, huh?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&item=320031446268&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
P.S. I've been reading about the fact that it's a "mint collection" model, and apparently this means that it's got Dimarzio pups and Nitrocellulose laquer?
I ain't complaining.