Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: willo on September 12, 2006, 09:01:41 PM
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Hi there, I recently joined a band in which I am playing second guitar, adding textures, chords and leads.
Wondering if anyone had any tips or ideas on how to fit into this? Deep Purple fans, I'm not talking about harmonised leads! More about what interesting chordal ideas you can play around with two guitars? I'm used to playing as the only guitarist in a band. Now I am trying to fit myself around another man's chordal work. I'm currently circulating around minimal guitar licks, chord inversions, octaves and playing altered chords over the top to change the tonality of the vocal part (i.e. minor instead of minor).
But, I don't want to keep repeating myself!
So, anyone else here have any experiences writing verse/chorus rock songs in two guitar bands?
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if the other guys plays a low E for example... you could play it an octave higher... or play an actual octave chord... i.e. a power chord without the middle note... dunno which one u meant when you said octaves...
they both work nicely... also a mix of open chords and power chords can work nicely... in a couple of our songs... the other guitarist plays open chords... whilst i play power chords (of the same notes mind) which gives a really nice texture... ill probably think of some other stuff later...
oh yer... theres always picking chords... that works a treat... dunno if any of this helps.
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oh and another thing: for licks/little lead bits... you can base the licks/lead bits around the key notes of the chord pattern... (as im sure you know)... but that doesnt mean they have to be the root notes... my teacher recently showed me that it also works really well to match key notes of the lead to the other note in whatever powerchord the other guitarist is playing... for example... the guy plays an E powerchord..... instead of using a higher E for a lead part to match that... you could use a B as its the other note in the chord... or you could alwys just play a B chord...
dunno if u already know this...
blargh...
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Different chord voicings work - open C not C barre etc. Play around with open strings...
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Yeah, cheers guys although (not meaning to be rude) I have got those ideas down. :D
What I'm thinking about more, is like, how do composers create interesting parts for so many instruments? Surely it can't all be an exercise in playing the same chord either open, fretted or notes an octave up or down. What kind of advanced intervallic theory can happen, with regards to chords?
Most intervallic stuff I have read focuses on leads. What I'm curious to know, is if guitarist one plays say, A major, is there any scope or theory behind guitarist two playing a completely different chord over that? (and I mean, again, in terms of playing something with a different root note - I know that say, E major 7 and E major 9 are largely interchangeable etc)
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Gawd knows mate - I don't do theory!!! I just play what sounds good to me :)
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lol thort you might have...
well theres the natural minor of a note course... and any harmonised note... i.e... the whole thing about if someone plays an E chord you can play a B chord... or a 4th, 5th, 3rd up/down e.t.c.
that any closer to what your getting at?
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What I'm thinking about more, is like, how do composers create interesting parts for so many instruments? Surely it can't all be an exercise in playing the same chord either open, fretted or notes an octave up or down. What kind of advanced intervallic theory can happen, with regards to chords?
well, the vast majority of orchestral instruments are only capable of playing one note at a time, and have quite a limited pitch range... so that'd explain why it's slightly easier to do for, say, an orchestra...
the piano/harpsichord was invented to let one person play the entire orchestral piece by themselves, and/or cover for, say, if you had three friends, one of whom played trumpet, one violin, and one cello, you could, as harpsichordist, cover the viola and lower brass parts, etc.
and the guitar is known as the "one handed keyboard"...
No real help, I'm afraid, but I guess it might help to understand why it works slightly easier for the orchestra...
I have no experience of playing guitar in a band myself, but I guess the main things to do are play a melody line when the other guitarist is playing chords (or vice versa), play arpeggios when he/she's playing chords (again, or vice versa), play barre chords when they're playing in the open position, play inversions, play subtly different chords (say a major 7th when they're playing a major, something like that), play high on the neck when they're low, etc- or let them play the first and the major third, while you play the 5th and 7th (so altogether you're playing a
major 7th), etc.
which as you say, you already know about. I dunno, I guess. :D
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Inversions!!!! Also try making up your own triads for fresh voicings.
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Sack the other guitarist?
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Theres an excellent live album (from the 1980 Black Sea tour) by XTC which is an excellent example of two guitarists playing completely different parts but somehow it works. Theres also a few bootlegs online (if you are interested).
I know it's not the normal style of playing around here but it may give some ideas away from the usual harmony techniques.
Their songbook from that period is online here http://www.optimismsflames.com/animals-page1.htm and there is some explanation in there (and the resultant mutant chords for when the parts are combined for single guitar).
Rob...
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Sack the other guitarist?
:mrgreen:
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
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Willo, I think you're over-thinking the problem mate - listen to the existing music and imagine what you'd play in your head before you even pick up your guitar.
:twisted:
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Sack the other guitarist?
:mrgreen:
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
Don't forget to lay claim to his equipment shortly beforehand
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id half agree with HTH... that works sometimes... but you also need to build up your arsenal of techniques to use..
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It's totally obvious, but get one guy on the neck pickup, and one one the bridge...
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HTH - yeah, I hear you. Currently I play by ear with the songs, come up with some nice ideas. But I've always been intrigued by guitarists who take a more compositional approach - e.g. Frank Zappa. If there are more possibilities out there, I think it's always worth learning them. Playing by ear can be natural and open up lots of ideas but it can also restrict you to the only possibilities your musical ear already knows IMO.
Kilby - will definitely take a look at that! Thanks for that! Because we are definitely not a metal band, and I don't even really like metal - XTC are a cool band!
FWIW, I'm not trying to sound different tonally, I'm looking at harmony. And all the obvious stuff is already covered, so I'm gonna take a good look at this XTC stuff.
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"but it can also restrict you to the only possibilities your musical ear already knows IMO"
yup i agree with that... hence why researching like your doing, adds to your library of techniques... which in time become natural to you... and therefore your natural playing improves... if that makes sense...
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Willo- in my band we listen to each other and if he plays open- I don't-kinda what you already know. A lot of the time he is holding down the chords and I am playing appegiated runs or chordy riffs in between vocal phrases. I would say the Stones are masters at it-Keith & Ron both being riff machines but somehow not getting in each other's way- Keith refers to it as the ancient art of weaving or something like that. Sometimes I am barely playing -parhaps shadowing the bass or little flicks or fills using notes from the chord and or melody-rhythmic phrases to compliment the song.Thems the thoughts of me.
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could think about the bass as well, try to fit yourself somewhere between the rhythmic and harmonic parts of the music, play percussively while the other guitarist lets chords ring etc.
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Hey me and Blue posted simultaneously with similar ideas- do we get a prize?
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theres a gay hat if you want...
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they both work nicely... also a mix of open chords and power chords can work nicely... in a couple of our songs... the other guitarist plays open chords... whilst i play power chords (of the same notes mind) which gives a really nice texture... ill probably think of some other stuff later...
oh yer... theres always picking chords... that works a treat... dunno if any of this helps.
I play in a band with another guitarist and I just do this kinda stuff and it sounds pretty good to me.
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I agree with Sambo. I think that your musical ear is only really as developed as the music you listen to. So, if all you have ever listened to is stuff in a major key, then most of the music you make will be in a major key.
Which is why I think it is important to learn all the possibilities. If playing an inversion of B over the other guitarist's B sounds perfect for the song, then so be it! But if there is some other arcane possibility that could really make the song killer, I wouldn't mind knowing it!
So this is all good, cheers for the tips, keep it coming!
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"Which is why I think it is important to learn all the possibilities. If playing an inversion of B over the other guitarist's B sounds perfect for the song, then so be it! But if there is some other arcane possibility that could really make the song killer, I wouldn't mind knowing it! "
Ian man, you put down everything thats in my head so well lol... you really have a way with words...
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:D I`ve played in many 2 guitar bands & most of the time i would do what you allready seem to no. But one technique i try to use regardless is the Neil Schon Journey technique. Play your chord then create a counter bass or low E A D string melody to help link the chords. Have a listen to some Journey & your hear what i mean.
:D 8)
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chords. Have a listen to some Journey
Do I have to??? :shock:
:wink:
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:D I forgot to add you should have just one of you useing Fx at a time ie. Chorus, Delay type Fx etc not gain. If the other guy is playing gain try going clean with or without FX
& Yes you Should. Don`t underestimate Schons playing just because he played in a commercial Rock AOR band. Schon used to play in a Jazz band before he joined Journey so he used alot of that Jazz style approaches to his playing. :wink:
:D 8)
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Sure thing JT - thanks for the tip!
Which album would you recommend? Any greatest hits that are worth buying (I'm on a budget)?
And yeah, I hear you about FX. In my post-rock (don't like that term) band I am always arguing with my bassist that it sounds daft if we all have our delay pedals on all the time!
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:D Check out there greatest hits package. Even if the songs are more rock orientated listen to how Schon plays around the Keyboards. Hes ideas are more Jazzy orientated [ as much as you can when your playing in a rock band ]
songs.."Only The Young" "Don`t Stop Believing" "Girl Cant Help It" "Be Good To Yourself"
He also has a beutifull sense of melody as well you might also like hes solo playing as well
:D 8)