Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: sambo on September 16, 2006, 02:57:00 PM
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hmm well im sick of my Gibson going out of tune (a bit too often than it should imo)... do locking tuners really do the job? and if so which ones would you guys recommend?
ive looked at Sperzel initially... but theyre more expensive than the likes of Gotoh and Grover... bearing in mind they need to be 3 a side... (oh and as its a melody maker theyre the 'Deluxe' ones... weirdy shaped.)
and also... as far as trem axes go... how would locking utners compare to a locking nut? and easier to use? i hate locking/unlocking the nut on my ESP all the time... so surely in theory getting locking tuners for that and then not using the locking nut would still work just as well right?
cheers.
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Cannot help much.
But have had/do have sperzel and LOVE em, LOOOOOOOOOOVE em.
On the 'Pet it has wilkerson type trem with sperzels.
Dunno if locking tuners with floyd type trem would work so well (though no experience) as that kinda trem is designed to go with locking nut.
Also, maybe, by time ya finished modding it (less ya love it) it might be cheaper to buy a different guitar bud.
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mm maybe so... which one are you talking about here though? lol
gibson or esp?
esp youd be right definately as its cheap.. no point doing it up.
Gibson though... hmmm i dunno... they retail £550+ ish... they aint cheap... with the bareknuckle... and locking tuners (they would be the only upgrades i probably COULD make easily)... then itd be £600+ worth of axe... and i dunno what i could get instead with a boutique pup, top-notch locking tuners and is as good as the guitar in general... for that price.
needs some thinking.
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meant the floyd one.
Some LOVE floyd type trems, I LOATHE them!!!!!!! Too much agro IMO.
But then I don't like trems in general.
Your Gibbo is unique to you, but the other may be worth changing rather than spending cash on.
Tuners for the Gibson (again IMO) need pro. fitting due to hole spacing which is extra cost.
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ahhh yup... yer i think your right... need to look into budget and what im after though i guess.
and im starting to agree with you on the whole trem thing.. im so used to the gibsons ease of string-changing+tuning i just cant be arsed with all the hassle.
and yer pro.fitting could be costly im guessing.
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lockin tuners dont necc. help with tuning stability, other than the fact tha they are usually a high qulaity tuner an therefore should stay in tune better.
Lockin tuners are mostly for making it easier and faster for string changes
and at that they are mint. I have them on 2 guitars. One set of schaller the other are genuine fender. If your going to gig regularly.... GET EM
Cant recommend them enough. hows a 15 sec string change sound. Thats 1m 30 sec total string change..... in a hurry.
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better quality tuners will help quite a bit with tuning stability. But it won't completely irradicate the problems. Keeping the nut lubricated also helps as it reduces friction. The same for the bridge as well.
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Try the old pencil lead in the nut groove trick Sam, see if that helps with tuning.
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:D OK Sam i`ve had normal regular tuners & now have Sperzels. No contest get the Sperzels or any of the locking tuner jobs. String changing is a peice of P*** !
They don`t necessary help with tuning stability when used with Trems but they are better than no locking systems at all. If your gonna be doing Vai type of Trem control then you need a Floyd/Khaler type. If your gonna do basic trem moves every now & then then locking tuners should do you.
AS for the Melody Maker sounds like a nice guitar don`t get rid of it, but Pup upgrades & locking tuners will certainly help the sound & string changing
:D 8)
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You don't need locking tuners, they're just a nice thing to have. I've got a guitar with locking Schallers and a graphite nut/saddles, and a few without all that stuff. All my guitars are able to stay in tune without lots of hassle. You should be able to minimise tuning issues by changing the way you wrap the strings around the tuning pegs, but also bear in mind that strings can get caught in the saddles and nut too - so remove any burrs on saddles and make sure your nut is cut to a decent standard (many Gibson ones aren't from the factory).
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Another vote for the Sperzels. I've got them on my Eggle and they're great - a really nice bit of engineering.
Sam, a couple of thoughts about tuning stability:
1. Are you stretching the strings in when you change them?
2. Have you left the strings on for ages (like I do)? That can cause problems.
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Yeah, locking tuners may well help, but also consider your nut and saddles. Wilkinson do a locking Tune-a-matic with roller saddles for ridiculously little money, which will also help with intonation. If you do loads of bends etc it may well be worth getting a graphite or tusq nut. Again, if you get something like the Earvana it'll help your intonation as well.
Sperzels are good, but the Grovers are really good value for money. Again, the Wilkinson EZ LOK tuners are REALLY cheap (like cheaper than non locking Grovers).
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woooooooooooooah!
cheers guys, thanks for all the info, its ALL really helpful...
ok so... from the beginning:
bainzy: you mentioned how the strings are wrapped round the pegs makes a difference... is there a particular method you use then? and ill look into the nut e.t.c. thanks for the heads up.
j.t- cheers- i probably will be gigging regularly and the fact that it makes re-stringing really easy is a good thing to know.
froglord: i used to stretch them by winding the pegs on (i.e. tuning them really high before tuning them properly)... but have recently found out its better to just physically pull/stretch them... ??? and i used to leave strings on for yonks but have started changing more regularly. cheers.
steve- what do you use to lubricate the bridge + nut?
ben- cheers for all the info... ive seen the roller saddles bridge around... youd recommend them then? and i thought about an Earvana ages ago but couldnt find anywhere to get one from i dont think...
oh and nick- what the hell is that pencil lead trick thing...?
cheeeers guys.
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Sperzel locking machineheads are well worth the money -even if only for massively speeding up string changes.
They do help with tuning a lot as there is much less slack string to deal with
They also help because they prevent issues caused by people not putting strings on right- as you just thread the string through, lock and tune.
They are about £55-60 a set unless you want gold ones.
But I agree that a well cut nut is essential too
See below - Graphtech have teamed up with tone-pros for a locking tunamatic bridge with graphite saddles.
Stability and tuning all in one - bonus
(http://www.graphtech.com/images/superbridge_large.jpg)
They said:
Graph Tech Guitar Labs and TonePros Sound Labs International have combined forces to create the SuperBridge, a TonePros® signature Tune-o-matic locking bridge featuring Graph Tech’s patented String Saver™ saddles.
Graph Tech’s String Saver saddles, made from a superior chemically-grafted polymer that includes Teflon, produce a 15% increase in sustain over standard steel saddles while virtually eliminating string breakage. The Tune-o-matic locking bridges designed by TonePros also improve sustain and acoustic coupling to the guitar while improving intonation. This is an unbeatable combination for players and manufacturers looking to improve guitar performance.
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pencil lead trick, rub a pencil lead into the nut, the shavings help to lube.
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thanks jonathan... im a bit cr@p at stringing so they will probably help me by the sounds of things lol
i take it nuts can be done at any guitar shop? what kinda price are they?....
and nick- oooooooo i see.... ill try that next time im re-stringing.
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They said:
Graph Tech Guitar Labs and TonePros Sound Labs International have combined forces to create the SuperBridge, a TonePros® signature Tune-o-matic locking bridge featuring Graph Tech’s patented String Saver™ saddles.
OK, I don't mean to sound cynical but where/what is the "locking" element in that bridge? :)
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mm i dont see it either :? lol
thanks for the info Jonathon again.
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Locking nuts do make stringing easier as you don't need to wrap the string round the post, just pull it through the hole til there's very little slack, lock it in place & tune it to pitch in a few turns.
However, the majority of tuning problems come from the nut. The pencil-lead in the nut slot trick Dakine referred to is easy & cheap to try (for best results use a really soft lead pencil from an arts/crafts shop) - the graphite reduces friction between the string & the nut. You can also get dedicated lubircants such as Big Bends Nut Sauce.
I guess any repairman/luthier can replace a nut, but I'd prefer to have someone I can trust work on my guitars - the repairman I use charges around £40
I've had very few guitars where the machineheads themselves have been responsible for tuning problems - sods law, one of them is my Nailbomb Les Paul - one of my favourite guitars :roll: but beware that you may need to ream the tuner holes out and/or drill guideholes to fit different tuners to your guitar....
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They said:
Graph Tech Guitar Labs and TonePros Sound Labs International have combined forces to create the SuperBridge, a TonePros® signature Tune-o-matic locking bridge featuring Graph Tech’s patented String Saver™ saddles.
OK, I don't mean to sound cynical but where/what is the "locking" element in that bridge? :)
The Tonepros bridges lock onto the mounting posts with grub screws.
Increaes the resoance/coupling with the body- it all helps
(http://tonepros.com/ToneProsGravityDefiance.jpg)
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Also prevents inadvertant intonation adjustment when restringing.
The Tonepros is nice but it's REALLY expensive. The Wilkinson is much cheaper.
Graphtech saddles really increase sustain and reduce string breakage, BUT you do need to be aware that they will make your tone brighter.
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I think a lot of people get confused by the term 'locking tuner', There main job is not to lock the guitar in tune!! :wink:
On trem equipped guitars without locking nuts the string windings on the tuner post are constantly being loosened and re-tightened as the trem is used - this is one of the reasons for tuning instability in trem equipped guitars. The locking tuners job is to do away with the windings on the post to stop this problem. This is less of a problem on guitars like les pauls, and most modern tuners (even the cheap ones) are usually quite capable of holding a guitar in tune. Thats why its worth checking all other areas of tuning instability first if you are having problems - particularly the nut.
I like locking tuners though and do use them on non-trem guitars for the string changing advantages already mentioned. I have tried a few different sets so heres my verdict:
Grovers
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/1/Grover_Locking_Guitar_Machines/Pictures.html#details
These are slightly confusing if you loose the instructions but they have the major advantage of looking just like normal tuners. They automatically lock onto the string as you tune. I find you still need some windings on these tuners as they dont always lock perfectly on the thin strings.
Schaller
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/1/Schaller_Locking_Guitar_Machines/Pictures.html#details
These are pretty much the standard, they act just like a normal tuner except there is a thumbwheel for locking the string in the post. The only problem i have is cosmetic, the chrome plating looks a little cheap too me.
Planet waves
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/1/Planet_Waves_Auto-Trim_Locking_Guitar_Machines/Pictures.html#details
These are my favorites and really make string changes quick and easy!! They feel solid and high quality but the black and chrome look doesnt look right on all guitars.
There are other brands but these are the ones i have tried
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Wez, bit surprised you find the plating on the Schallers looks cheap. I've tried both the Schallers and Planet Waves and to me the quality of the plating seems very close. Both have a few tiny marks here and there, but if anything I'd give the edge to the Schallers. I also find the Schallers possibly feel a little smoother in use.
They're both very good though. The PWs might be slightly lighter in weight, and I like the way they clip the strings.
Another thing to bear in mind - with Sperzels or Planet Waves you'd almost certainly need to widen the holes on the front of the headstock. I'm not sure what kind of tuners the Melody Maker has - are they attached by nuts on the front of the headstock or are there push-in bushings? If the latter, you'd probably need to enlarge the holes all the way through the headstock.
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thanks again guys!
wezv thats really interesting cheers... i hadnt even considered the PW's yet... ill check em out.
cheers Feline for the pics and Antag and Ben thanks for the info.
s'all useful stuff.
as far as how the tuners are attached.. im pretty sure its two little pins or something in the back... theyre gibsons Deluxe ones... a pin at the top and one at the bottom... ive only seen one brand of locking tuners in the same style... so im pretty sure ill need work done whichever i get.
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woooooooooooooah!
cheers guys, thanks for all the info, its ALL really helpful...
ok so... from the beginning:
bainzy: you mentioned how the strings are wrapped round the pegs makes a difference... is there a particular method you use then? and ill look into the nut e.t.c. thanks for the heads up.
j.t- cheers- i probably will be gigging regularly and the fact that it makes re-stringing really easy is a good thing to know.
froglord: i used to stretch them by winding the pegs on (i.e. tuning them really high before tuning them properly)... but have recently found out its better to just physically pull/stretch them... ??? and i used to leave strings on for yonks but have started changing more regularly. cheers.
steve- what do you use to lubricate the bridge + nut?
ben- cheers for all the info... ive seen the roller saddles bridge around... youd recommend them then? and i thought about an Earvana ages ago but couldnt find anywhere to get one from i dont think...
oh and nick- what the hell is that pencil lead trick thing...?
cheeeers guys.
You can get this stuff called Nut Sauce. It's basically like an oil that you just squeeze from a tube onto the strings and the nut and at the bridge. Costs about £7.50 but that will last you a long time.
Those graphtech saddles look promising too,
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Hey Sambo,
Had the same issue with my LP Special.
I put these in which fit perfectly in the holes of the original Gibson ones and solved all my tuning issues, great product (but 50 GBP)
http://www.wdmusic.co.uk/shop/products.php?category=214&product=5142
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Wez, bit surprised you find the plating on the Schallers looks cheap. I've tried both the Schallers and Planet Waves and to me the quality of the plating seems very close. Both have a few tiny marks here and there, but if anything I'd give the edge to the Schallers. I also find the Schallers possibly feel a little smoother in use.
Probably just had a bad set then
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I've got a set of USA Sperzel Trim-lok heads on My Eggle and I absolutely wouldn't be without them. They just make life so much easier.
One thing though. Be really careful not to unscrew the locking nut too far, or you'll shag the threads completely. Which is not a good thing...
Anyone know if those Self locking-self trimming Steinberger tuners are available yet?
As far as i know the work like these: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/Planet_Waves_Auto-Trim_Locking_Guitar_Machines.html
But look and are as well engineered as these:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/Steinberger_Gearless_Tuners.html
I like the Idea of that....
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Jonathon, how much are those bridges (and how much to fit one???)
sambo, can't help unfortunately, i'm useless at these things, but have fun all the same, sorry for the mini-hijack :D
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you can change strings a lot faster on a floyd eguipped guitar if it has locking tuners
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cheers steve ill get myself some of that...
and hunter- awesome! theyre perfect cheers.. :D
and headtheball- those steinbergers look reallly cool... as do the PW's...
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Caffeine Junkie, a regular Tonepros bridge costs £50-£65 (and about the same again for the tailpiece). I've not seen the Graphtech one available in this country yet, but graphtech TOM saddles cost £15-£20, so I guess you can infer a likely figure. They fit into the existing threads, so you can fit them yourself with no skill whatsoever.
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aaah thank you very much, i may well be getting them at some point
cheers
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Caffeine Junkie, a regular Tonepros bridge costs £50-£65 (and about the same again for the tailpiece). I've not seen the Graphtech one available in this country yet, but graphtech TOM saddles cost £15-£20, so I guess you can infer a likely figure. They fit into the existing threads, so you can fit them yourself with no skill whatsoever.
the saddle sets are £25 but great
they do require a bit of patience to fit - if you could cope with an airfix kit you'd be fine to do it
There are different ones depending upon which tunamatic you have
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I have a set of Graphtech saddles and they are pretty good, I didnt really notice much difference in tone but they definately work for string breakages, mind you I still break strings on em but not as frequently as I did with stock Epi saddles.
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Some Epi bridges need a bit of attention as they can get burrs that can cut into a string
The graph tech saddles are great for that
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woooooooooooooah!
cheers guys, thanks for all the info, its ALL really helpful...
ok so... from the beginning:
bainzy: you mentioned how the strings are wrapped round the pegs makes a difference... is there a particular method you use then? and ill look into the nut e.t.c. thanks for the heads up.
j.t- cheers- i probably will be gigging regularly and the fact that it makes re-stringing really easy is a good thing to know.
froglord: i used to stretch them by winding the pegs on (i.e. tuning them really high before tuning them properly)... but have recently found out its better to just physically pull/stretch them... ??? and i used to leave strings on for yonks but have started changing more regularly. cheers.
steve- what do you use to lubricate the bridge + nut?
ben- cheers for all the info... ive seen the roller saddles bridge around... youd recommend them then? and i thought about an Earvana ages ago but couldnt find anywhere to get one from i dont think...
oh and nick- what the hell is that pencil lead trick thing...?
cheeeers guys.
what no mention for me... fine next time I'll kepp my info to myself Mr Chadwick. :? :lol:
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:o :lol: :lol: :lol:
lol i first of all put j.p.... then scrolled down to check... and saw J.t.... and then didnt realise that you posted as well lol... woops..
but your info was of course helpful just so you know... with the very quick string changes and great for gigging e.t.c. thanks :D
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ha... no problem.
BTW havent tried the PW tuners but all the other PW gear I have is great.
My one recomendation would be to try and geta brand that has larger "locking nuts" on the back of the tuner.
I have the schaller type and the locking nut is very thin and sometimes makes it hard to get a grip on them. Its a small thin g but can be annoying.
Anyways back to the business of fatherdom [drifts off in semi sleep walk]
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I've had sperzels... and still do now... you gotta tighten them good or they slip, but if you tighten them good they also break.... go figure.
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I've had sperzels... and still do now... you gotta tighten them good or they slip, but if you tighten them good they also break.... go figure.
Never had this issue with Sperzels on 4 guitars have owned, hmmm.
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I've had sperzels... and still do now... you gotta tighten them good or they slip, but if you tighten them good they also break.... go figure.
Never had this issue with Sperzels on 4 guitars have owned, hmmm.
I haven't yet had any with the Carvin, but I no longer use 11s+. But even after I stopped using 13-58s on the G&L before I sold it, they'd always break with 11s.
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I've had sperzels... and still do now... you gotta tighten them good or they slip, but if you tighten them good they also break.... go figure.
Never had this issue with Sperzels on 4 guitars have owned, hmmm.
I haven't yet had any with the Carvin, but I no longer use 11s+. But even after I stopped using 13-58s on the G&L before I sold it, they'd always break with 11s.
Did you check the internals (obviously by sight) to look for burrs/bad edges? Thats if they broke at nut end (as I deduce you are implying). Sounds like a sharp edge to me.
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I've had sperzels... and still do now... you gotta tighten them good or they slip, but if you tighten them good they also break.... go figure.
Never had this issue with Sperzels on 4 guitars have owned, hmmm.
I haven't yet had any with the Carvin, but I no longer use 11s+. But even after I stopped using 13-58s on the G&L before I sold it, they'd always break with 11s.
Did you check the internals (obviously by sight) to look for burrs/bad edges? Thats if they broke at nut end (as I deduce you are implying). Sounds like a sharp edge to me.
I don't think any broke at the nut end... the first couple to break may have I don't really remember it was so long ago... most of them broke at the string end.
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hmmm, curious Mr.Bond.
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I have Sperzels on my Carvin, and (I think) Schallers on my Music Man. No question locking tuners are a huge convenience to use. I find the Sperzels to feel like the highest quality, and the Schallers feel a bit "cheaper" by comprison, but I don't mean to say they're inferior quality, just that the Sperzels seem so well made, and are a joy to use.
Brian
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In all honesty, they've been great on the Carvin... I should note that. But on the G&L S-500 I had a while back and sold, they'd just slip and break and it pissed me off... and I have to use fat strings on strats for the tone....
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I prefer the sperzels to the schaller
I have had string slippage with the schaller
Generally the sperzels have been good as gold
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cheers guys... so the general consensus seems to be they're definately a good thing to have... and that the sperzels are the best quality... although the schallers, grovers, will do a good job as well.... sorted.
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Yeah the Sperzels are great on my Strat. Just note that it will require 6 small drill holes to install them. I found it was best to have just one turn (or almost one) of the string around the post instead of the recommended no-slack when changing strings.
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I also installed my new Graphtech/Tonepros bridge to my Guild S-100 last night and I am very pleased with the outcome. I was a bit hesitant to get the Graphtech saddles as I thought it would alter my tone for the worse but the tone isn't that marginally brighter. I feel it gives chords and single notes a bit more clarity and slightly more presence.