Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Hell Hound on September 28, 2006, 02:26:42 PM
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Scattered vs Layered
"Scatter-wound" is just another sales slogan like "aged magnets". A more accurate term would be "random-wound," and any multi-layer winding of wire, finer than 38 AWG, is more or less random-wound. Electricity doesn't distinguish between layered and random-wound coils -- what matters is the count of turns-per-square and the relation between the length and cross-section of a coil.
Tensioning
Even the most advanced coil winders need modification to wind elongated pickup bobbins. Oblong bobbins pull different lengths of wire during the phases of each rotation. This requires synchronized changes in tension during each rotation to avoid pressure points at the narrow ends of the bobbin. These pressure points can cause shorts in the coil which create eddy currents.
Hand vs Machine
Do you really believe someone hand-guides 8000 turns of copper wire that is as thin as a human hair on a bobbin to complete, maybe, 30 coils per day and can guaranty any consistency? A well-wound coil is a well-wound coil regardless if it's wound with professional equipment, or if somebody's great-grandmother winds it to an old French recipe with Napoleon's modified coffee grinder and chops off the wire after a mile with an antique guillotine!
www.billlawrence.com (http://www.billlawrence.com)
He basicaly says scatter winding/hand winding is bullshitee as I understand it, weird for a guy who sell handmade pickups.
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:D This one comes up every 6 months ! LOL
The trueth is simple. NO one wants to scatterwind because it takes a long while to make eack pickup. So you poo poo anyone who does scatterwind. Hope like mad people believe you & then keep denying theres anything in the "Scatterwinding" process for as long as you can.
And of course non of us that use scatterwound pickups can hear any difference between them & non scatterwound pickups because were all mad & tone deaf !!! LOL
:D 8)
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I'm personnaly a scatterwound beleiver so no problem, but I thought good old Bill was loosing his mind after all these years of pickups winding :lol:
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I haven't tried BL's, so I'm not saying anything about how good they are, but it's worth remembering that handwound isn't always scatterwound, but scatterwound is always handwound- so that'd explain why it's ok for him to poo-poo scatterwinding, and still handwind himself.
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i'll start listening to his opinion when he makes a pickup that sounds as good as my VHII.. until then he can suck my left testical.
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What I don't understand is why a random- or semi-random-scatter winding machine has not been manufactured (or has it?). It is entirely possible to design one, given the relative simplicity of the algorithms required, and it could be a great asset to a pickup manufacturer.
BTW Bill is Mathematically and Physically correct when he says that there can be no consistency in hand winding a pickup. But I don't believe that our limited human ears, in the context of a guitars other variables, will be able to tell the difference between two similar pickups made by an experienced hand winder.
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Scatter winding machines are doable, it certainly would be slower than straight winding, less pickups a day, less profits...
Sad...
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A scatter machine really cant be done.
WInding macnines follow an alogorithm for a particular wind. This algorithm can be modified to be irregular, but the machine doesnt know whats on the coil. Thats the crux, I think (I say I think, because its unwise to be certain of such things when masters are present...but anyway..)
A human can watch the coils build up, have a picture in their mind of what they want the wind shape to be overall, and guide the wire randomly from 1 turn to another but achieve an overall order and consistency because they can change the wind according to what they see on the coil.
Disclaimer: never wound a pickup.
However, I am (tooteetootoo on own trumpet) a physicist, and can tell you that the theory behind it (distributed capacitance) is valid.
*awaits Tim or Steve telling us all the real deal of winding a pickup*
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although it is possible to build a system which either tracked where it had placed previous wire, or used a sensor on the winder to look at where the wire is specifically built, and then use that to co-ordinate the winder
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although it is possible to build a system which either tracked where it had placed previous wire, or used a sensor on the winder to look at where the wire is specifically built, and then use that to co-ordinate the winder
£££££££££
The wires are micrometers in thickness.
A system that plots the direction of each turn would be...horrendously difficult to make. you'd need lasers to plot the position of each wind, some absurd piece of software to translate raw scattered-light data into actual spatial locations of winds and even more sophisticated software to tell the winder what to do next.
In short Tims brain and arm.
There really isnt an artificial substitute.
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not yet no, but there most probably will be in about 10 years time. It still won't be as good as hand-winding, but it will help to improve the quality of most pickups
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No lasers needed (well, maybe). All you would need is a spool of wire with optical or magnetic sensors to follow the path of the wire being guided by a human hand. The placement, or scatter pattern, of the wire could recorded on a computer, and then "played back" on the same spool. The tension could also be recorded and adjusted for different types of pickups. Really, I don't think it would be such a big deal.
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Maybe many many many years from now, we could convince Tim to cryogenically freeze himself in the hopes that one day someone could build him into a pickup winding machine...
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Maybe many many many years from now, we could convince Tim to cryogenically freeze himself in the hopes that one day someone could build him into a pickup winding machine...
The only feasible answer in this whole thread :lol:
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Maybe many many many years from now, we could convince Tim to cryogenically freeze himself in the hopes that one day someone could build him into a pickup winding machine...
but the thing with BKPs is that each one is unique due to the random scatter-winding, which is one of the main reasons why all the others sound the same, i.e. you take 2 sets of pickups (lets say EMG 81s) and they will both sound exactly the same
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3th3r: maybe theres another way. But you wouldnt be able to use a broad -spectrum source because you cant isolate the interference pattern from scattering off the wire from its own interference with itself and off the winder and what not. Directed monochromatic light source is where its at. Or maybe extreme ultrasound echo-location. You need something with a very high frequency anyway because the wires so thin.
Or a method to map the surface: easier, but still tricky. You could get away with lower resolution, and it would be harder but still possible to do away with a coherent source. Your software has to be far batter though, because it needs to identify the wind in an image and then map it. Effortless for a human, much harder for a computer.
Beyond that, which is possible but difficult, its all in making software clever enough to adapt to the wind thats on the coil already. The tension thing is childsplay: its the angle it comes in at, the lateral location of the point the wire connects with the winder.
It can be done, I've no doubt about it. Its not even that hard, but like I said: ££$$££$$££$$££$$£. Its not worth it: there isnt enough comeback to pay for the R&D and gear.
THough maybe seymour duncan can look into it and charge £1000 per auto-scatter wound pickup :lol: